Isn’t adultery a sin also?
August 29th, 2004 at 11:15 am by David FarrarSo civil unions will undermine marriage according to Destiny, but adultery is no barrier to holding a senior role within Destiny?
The SST has provided some details. A rival church group commented some time ago that Ian Bilby had affairs with some 10 – 20 women! Well, if you’re going to sin, you might as well enjoy it I suppose.
And posters to the Destiny thread here, last week, asked “While at Elim Ian Bibly was sprung for having several extra-marital affairs. He then went onto get divorced. He then remarried, something that is clearly mentioned in the new testament as a big no-no (adultery). OK, he can be forgiven for the affairs and divorce, but why is Brian ignoring the clear biblical instructions to shun the adulterer, yet is so hot on the gay issue?”
A good question.
No tag for this post.
August 29th, 2004 at 5:44 pm
David, Adultery is a sin in Destiny’s eyes. It’s included in the 10 commandments. However forgiveness and repentance seems to make it OK, in terms of moving on. Brian is so hot on the gay issue as he seem to think that being gay is more of a sin than a pastor having sex with someone other than his wife. But he differs from the teachings of the bible here as well.
Tamiki thinks that, because he sees gay sex as an
Vote:“abomination” and a “deprivation”. I have to say that many church leaders are getting pissed off with Destiny’s antics and are distancing themselves from them.
August 29th, 2004 at 6:00 pm
As I understand it Bilby has not apologised to those he harmed, so ones wonders how repentent he is?
Vote:August 29th, 2004 at 6:27 pm
Dave, Church leaders don’t get “pissed off.” Most of them are sufficiently literate, civilised and polite to “disapprove” or to “become anoyed.”
Vote:August 30th, 2004 at 9:07 am
David – repentance means to turn completely from sin (to turn 180 degrees from sin actually) and ask God forgiveness. This is what Bilby has done.
And he has now REDIDICATED his life to God – not to sin adultery/homosexuality or the desires of his own heart – but Gods will.
Dave made an interesting statement -
Vote:“However forgiveness and repentance seems to make it OK, in terms of moving on”.
While it doesn
August 30th, 2004 at 9:18 am
Naki-gurl: You talk about the homosexual lifestyle as if it is a choice (like adultery is). Do you think the majority of people choose their sexual orientation? Are you heterosexual because you choose to be or because you are attracted to men, not women?
I have a lot of gay friends, and none of them chose to be gay. It is simply the way they are. God created them gay if you want to look at it that way.
As for Bilby, is a public statement of regret enough? I mean he cheated 10 to 20 times. Has he apologised to his old church also, the other families he broke up? Is he paying some of his salary to his former family as atonement?
Vote:August 30th, 2004 at 9:19 am
wot up peoples?
Vote:August 30th, 2004 at 9:37 am
Did anyone see the letter to the Sunday Star Times editor by the head of Character Schools New Zealand. It’s an outstanding piece of work. The letter expresses concern that the kids on the Destiny march should have been in school, and also expresses concern about the values being espoused.
Vote:August 30th, 2004 at 9:44 am
You will have to ask Ian Bilby or someone who knows that – and not simply assume that he hasn
Vote:August 30th, 2004 at 9:52 am
That does sound interesting – anythign on the children who marched in the hikoi and how some of them took weeks of school to participate in the hikoi?
How about other marches which involved children Parihaka? hikoi? madge march? or perhaps the hundreds of wellington high school kids/teens who were at parliament on the 23rd of August?
And did she attend a destiny church childrens service and hear the DC Kids Pastor Stan telling the children to hate homosexuals? Did Pastor Stan even talk about homosexuality?
Just curios to see what the paper/article does say?
Vote:August 30th, 2004 at 10:36 am
hi
Vote:August 30th, 2004 at 10:47 am
naki-gurl: have you ever known or socialised with gay people? Your quote Genesis as your basis for belieivng they must choose to be gay. Do you beleive all of the old testament? Do you beleive the world is only a few thousand years old? Do you beleive that it is okay to sell daughters into slavery?
If you no not beleive *all* of the old testament is literally correct, then how do you choose what oparts to follow?
And of course some gay people are bisexual and can happily marry and have a great heterosexual relationship, but most can not. If a guy is simply not at all attracted to women, no amount of choice can change that. You can not generally choose who to fall in love with.
Vote:August 30th, 2004 at 1:31 pm
Hey David,
Yeah I know Gay people, I work with two lesbians (one is my big boss) and one gay guy who is about 17 yrs old. He was in my office about 15 minutes ago talking about how he just broke up with his boyfriend and now hes gotta a new one.
I have known quite a few Gay people ( I grew up in a small maori community), and I have never treated them any differently then to how I have treated straight friends – I just believe what they do is wrong.
And I believe many things from the old testemant also, that we should keep the sabbath holy and not work (as in work to earn money) but we should go to church.
I believehomosexuality/ beastility/ fornication/incest is wrong – it is mentioned in both the old and new testemant – meaning that after the birth and death of Christ it these laws didnt become irrelvant(The apostle Paul talks of homosexuality and lesbainism in Romans 1:24-30 – Thats New testemant)
Where does it talk of the world being only a few thousand years old??
I think woman where once sold in the past to become maid servants – but that was more of a religious tradition than a God sanctioned law- and the revelation that God has given to Pastor Brian Tamaki is that women are not slaves they are Gods creation. I think it would be totally awesome if all men treated there wives the same way Pastor Brian treats Pastor Hannah.
And in the past (old testemant past) certain traditions were performed because they were appropriate for the time (i.e men not approaching woman during the period- but they did not have the innovation we have now -tampons etc – and Jesus did help a woman who had an issue of blood and he was a man). But this is a new season (the bible says to every time/season a purpose) and a new time with a different purpose to that of the old.
And in reply to your comment – how do we know what to follow – well me personally – I listen to what my Pastor is saying in relation to the word -because wether you agree or disagree God sends men to preach his word, and these are Gods choosen men. Then God will reveal things to you PERSONALLY through his word – things will just jump out at you and you will know that God is speaking to you (even if your mind doesnt receive it your spirit will)
I think it might be hard for you to understand this concept, mainly because your not christian and your not receving fresh revelation via Gods word and Gods sent man.
It would be hard for you to understand what Im saying also because alot of what you know, you know through your mind. But alot of what I know, I know because it has been brought to my attention through my spirit. When your spirit is submitted to God spirit – you receive new enlightment and new understanding of certain things. But because you are not a spiritual person in Christ, you will simply not understand FULLY what Im talking about.
Its quite funny how you yourself are not gay (or are you?) but you will speak on behalf of the gay population -
“And of course some gay people are bisexual and can happily marry and have a great heterosexual relationship, but most can not”
And yes in many cases you cannot choose who you fall in love with, but you can choose what your actions will be pertaining to that thought/feeling, and you can choose what to belive in i.e – what you think is right or what God says is right.
Vote:August 30th, 2004 at 2:05 pm
Speaking as someone who has been in a stable, monogamous homosexual relationship for nine-and-a-quarter years, I’m not surprised that Destiny is run by a big old hypocrite after reading this in the Weekend Herald (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?thesection=news&thesubsection=&storyID=3587637):
QUOTE
“They [Brian and Hannah Tamiki] used to live in what they call sin. One of their three now grown children was born out of wedlock. This is bad, but also good. Because “see, we’ve walked that path. We’ve been there. I’ve had to face the same things, people pointing the finger at me.” ”
END QUOTE
But three paragraphs later:
QUOTE
Tamaki says smugly about gay relationships, “Well, they don’t last long.”
What rubbish, I say. He says, “They go through partners like water.” He’s talking for effect now, and I tell him he’s in his pulpit again.
END QUOTE
Tamaki may be a man of god these days, but he sure has the Devil’s own cheek.
Vote:August 30th, 2004 at 2:22 pm
Dear Naki-girl
I think you’ll find that the head of character schools NZ would indeed express just as much concern for those children on the hikoi (as did many other New Zealanders). I udnerstand that the Destiny School actually operates within the special character schools charter etc so I’d expect that the head of character schools NZ speaks with some authority on the matter.
I think you’ve jumped to a few conclusions about what may have been said in the letter to the editor. I suggest you track it down as the letter articulately and respectfully presents the view of many New Zealanders
Vote:August 30th, 2004 at 3:02 pm
Hey naki-gurl I understand your conviction, and that you feel you “know” what is right in the eyes of God.
But the bible is bloody complicated and God gave you a brain to view it, and the world, with a degree of critical analysis.
Sure, for Christians there’s that cut off between the old and new testaments and Jesus ‘resurrection is supposed to have done away with the weirdo slavery stuff from the old testament. That’s the argument used to counter those who keep bringing up stuff in the bible like rules about not blending two types of cloth in their undergarments.
But preachers like Tamaki keep harking back to the old testament when it suits. And its back all those thousands of years ago, in the old testament days, that the most explicit statements against homosexuality (and the wearing of mixed cloth undergarments!) were written.
As for the new testament, just think about some of the stuff Paul wrote and you can see he intermingles the word of God (if you believe that it is) with his own personal prejudices:
He has variously banned women from talking in church, told women to obey their husbands and suggested that men are better off not marrying anyone and should only bother if they can’t keep their sexual urges in check.
That’s just not the word of God. Sorry. Paul may have been a brave early Christian, but he was also a man with warped ideas about sexuality. And a misogynist to boot.
Divorce is now seen by the mainstream evangelical churches as acceptable, despite the bible explicitly banning it. They haven’t thrown the whole bible away, but they’re increasinly acknowledging the historical context in which it was written.
It was written in the days when it was okay to have slaves, women were considered intellectually and spiritually inferior to men and many cultures were frigtened of, and therefore banned, homosexuality.
(Ps, it is dangerous to blindly accept everything that Tamaki, or anyone else, says and it is NOT a sin to question it:)
Vote:August 30th, 2004 at 3:09 pm
Hey Megs -
I cant track it down, could you tell me how to get an electronic copy? – I was just interested because you said it – “The letter expresses concern that the kids on the Destiny march should have been in school, and also expresses concern about the values being espoused”.
And if that is the case I was wondering whether the article commented on:
- the children who marched in the hikoi and how some of them took weeks of school to participate in the hikoi?
-other marches which involved children Parihaka? hikoi? madge march? or perhaps the hundreds of wellington high school kids/teens who were at parliament on the 23rd of August? And wether she thought that they should have been in school.
- And since she commented on the message the kids had been “exposed to” has she ever attended a destiny church childrens service and hear the DC Kids Pastor Stan telling the children to hate homosexuals? Did Pastor Stan even talk about homosexuality? Or is she purely taking what the media portrayas being the “destiny Church message”
I’d really like to know as sometimes it is very easy for someone to critisize the person or the people without actually loking at the issue in hand.
P.S I dont think it is wise to discern that just because someone has written an “articulate and respectful” article that “many” NZers agree with it. I would wait for feedback before I assumed that this was the case.
Vote:August 30th, 2004 at 3:37 pm
Writeon – thanks for that Im quite interested in what you have to say!
Do you agree with what Jesus says in relation to “fruit” i.e “you will know a man by his fruit”
Because otherwise your just another secular humanist who is trying to twist and distort the truth of Gods word.
Vote:August 30th, 2004 at 3:53 pm
I think its important to not o much analyze the bible with your mind, but to submit your spirit to the holy spirit and let him guide you through the word.
We all know that Old Testemant isint irelevant because Jesus during his ministry mentioned it 122 times (The old testemant -double check if yah want)
And on the subject of Paul – Paul had the antichrist spirit upon him – and he persecuted Jesus and his followers – yet the bible tells us that Jesus himself came to Paul and told him that he was Christ’s chosen vessel.
Paul was divinely appointed by Jesus himself to lead the new ministry – how can you doubt his words when one of such power and holiness apponted him?
P.S Even though I do listen to the voice of Pastor Brian other people speak into my life aswell – my mum, my youth leaders, my flatmate, my local pastors, my bible study teachers, my ministry leader etc…
So dont assume that because I belive in what Pastor Brian is saying that I am a brain warped zombie who cant think! Im just your normal average person – not some kooky cult believer.
Vote:August 31st, 2004 at 10:45 am
naki Gurl – Do you Gay co-workers know your position on their sexuality? If so how do they feel. As a Gay male, all I saw on the 23rd was an outpouring of not so much hate – but of fear. Fear of me, fear of others like me, and fear of those who came out to support me. I ask you also, did you choose to be attracted to men? If not, then you and I have something in common.
Vote:August 31st, 2004 at 11:27 am
Naki-Gurl:
You said “I have known quite a few Gay people ( I grew up in a small maori community), and I have never treated them any differently then to how I have treated straight friends – I just believe what they do is wrong.”
Do you also believe that your straight friends who have pre-marital sex, are doing wrong also?
“Where does it talk of the world being only a few thousand years old??”
It is implicit from the old testament.
“I think woman where once sold in the past to become maid servants – but that was more of a religious tradition than a God sanctioned law- and the revelation that God has given to Pastor Brian Tamaki is that women are not slaves they are Gods creation.”
Except he things it is the work of Satan to have feamles holding political power. And you seem to be suggesting that if Pastor Brian said it still okay to sell daughters into slavery, you would accept that?
“I think it would be totally awesome if all men treated there wives the same way Pastor Brian treats Pastor Hannah.”
You mean pre-marital sex?
“And in reply to your comment – how do we know what to follow – well me personally – I listen to what my Pastor is saying in relation to the word”
So debating with you is fairly pointless, as you let Brian Tamaki decide for you what parts of the Bible are valid?
“I think it might be hard for you to understand this concept, mainly because your not christian and your not receving fresh revelation via Gods word and Gods sent man.”
What makes you think I am not Christian?
“Its quite funny how you yourself are not gay (or are you?) but you will speak on behalf of the gay population”
No I am not gay. I’m hopelessly addictaed to women I’m afraid. I of course don’t speak on behalf of anyone, but I know enough gay and lesbian friends that I have discussed issues such as choice of sexuality with, that I am totally satisfied that for most of them, there is no choice in it.
“And yes in many cases you cannot choose who you fall in love with, but you can choose what your actions will be pertaining to that thought/feeling, and you can choose what to belive in i.e – what you think is right or what God says is right.”
Yeah this means that if you are gay or lesbian you must go through life never having sex.
Vote:September 1st, 2004 at 12:27 pm
Right,
lets get something clear. I’m the ‘Dave’ that posted the original question, not to be confused with someone else posting as ‘Dave’ who posted the first comment in this section – “Posted by dave at August 29, 2004 05:44 PM”. Perhaps that Dave could change his posting alias…
Secondly, naki-gurl, I am not asking this question about adultery because I am uninformed – I want an interpretation of a very specific and clear Biblical instruction from someone at Destiny. The points are as follows:-
Ian Bilby can be forgiven for his adultery while married and even for the divorce. However, there can be no forgiveness according to the Bible for his deliberate remarrying.
As Ian Bilby is the guilty party his wife is freed by the Lord to re-marry. However Bilby’s position is that the Lord only gives him the right to be rejoined to his wife after real repentance, or if that is not possible because she will not have him back, or she has remarried, his only choice then is to stay single and live a fully repentant and clean life for the Lord due to the fact that his wife is still alive.
This man has not only previously sinned in adultery himself, but by marrying any other woman while his first wife is still alive (whether he and his wife are divorced or not) actually causes that new woman to commit adultery as well. They both then continue to be joined in the sin of adultery, this is because he is illegally divorced (in God’s eyes). Scripture clearly points out that anyone single, married, or widowed etc. who marries a divorced person, that is, one who has not been legally freed (in Gods eyes and Law), commits adultery with that person .
Brian Tamaki must be aware that Ian Bilby has no right to be in his church or any other church for that matter, while he remains in the sin of adultery. 1 Cor 5: 1 – 2 and 1 Cor.5: 11 Also “and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them” Eph. 5:11
So, naki_gurl et al, there is no scriptural case for him being forgiven of the second adultery (remarrying). he is blatantly and knowingly choosing to remain in sin, so you have got to question his ‘repentance’ from the first round of adultery.
Please explain why Brian is happy to blatantly ignore this clear Biblical instruction yet push the homosexuality issue, something that is not even mentioned in the NEW testament???
BTW
In a statement read out to the Auckland City Elim Church at the time of his “repentance”, Bilby said: “I am not fit to be a leader in any sector of society, especially not the church.”
Vote:September 2nd, 2004 at 12:39 am
To Dave:
While I agree that it was probably an error of judgement to appoint Ian Bilby to a position of leadership with Destiny, I am not in sympathy with the tone of your post above. Besides, it appears not to be original – it is copied verbatim from a letter written by a pastor on behalf of Moriel Ministries (I read it on the web a few minutes ago). If you’re going to be so belligerent, you might like to acknowledge the source. And above all, let’s show the man some compassion. The claim that there is “no forgiveness” for his deliberate remarrying is UNbiblical. Sure, maybe he shouldn’t have done it. But “no forgiveness?” I don’t think it constitutes “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit,” which is the only sin without forgiveness that I can find in my bible. Do be careful about throwing stones around – please.
To Naki-Gurrl: Reading what you’ve written, I have a lot of respect for you. I agree with you at many points, though not all – but even where I find myself disagreeing, I respect you, and am proud to own you as my sister in Christ. Blessings to you, my sister.
David.
Vote:September 2nd, 2004 at 10:44 am
David,
correct – I did copy the post from a web article – was going to reference the source but,
a. would make an already long post longer, and
b. I don’t think they would mind me not referencing them, and
c. I think their article is correct, but can’t be arsed sifting thru the Bible to find all the biblical references when they have stated the point pretty clearly.
BTW, did my post sound belligerent? I would just like an answer to what I consider a resonable question – so far I’ve posted this question several times but had no real answer from any Christians – you are the first.
I agree with your comments about the only unforgivable sin etc, but Moriel I feel are correctly interpreting the Bible on this point – forgiveness is there for anyone who repents of sin, unfortunately Ian remains in sin and unrepentent by breaking a clear biblical command to not remarry, so there can be no forgiveness for him or his new wife while they remain married (in sin). Compassion and forgiveness are one thing, but placing Ian in a leadership role sends a message to Brians church that it is OK to get divorced and remarry, something the NT is pretty specifically against, and surely this is more damaging to his ‘family values’ stance than a few homosexuals wanting equal rights.
Vote:September 2nd, 2004 at 2:11 pm
Dave – who are you to cast judgement on a man – who has repented and has been forgiven and has rededicated his life to the Lord – have you met Ian Bilby; how about Pastor Brian???
Well I tell yah what – I have met them both and have felt they have a clear purpose and annointing on their lives.
Ian Bibly’s teaching on how to submit your body and soul to your spirit and the holy spirit was life changing for me.
The bible does talk of “restoration” and this man has been restored.
And homosexuality is menitioned in the new testemant – read Romans 1:24-30.
Would you mind if Ian Bibly was just a part of the congregation and not in ministry/leadership?
And while Ian Bilby is living to fufil his Godly purpose, I dont see any homosexuals/gays/lesbians etc running up the altar asking for forgiveness and repentance…
Its a new season brother – let those problems go and move foward, or remain dead in the past!
Vote:September 2nd, 2004 at 2:44 pm
Also Dave there are women/couples in the church I attend who have children out of wedlock – people who have been divorced and re-married (while in the world not in church) and they are now in Destiny Church.
Now, I dont have a problem with this, do you?
Because I thought Jesus died for all our sins?? even Ian Bilby
And Ian Bibly had an affair – now he is married to ONE woman, and has been faithful to her. He has also recommited his life to the works of God. And he is fufilling his God given purpose, he works for the body of Christ, and has helped many people.
He is not living in sin anymore – hes married to a one WOMAN.
I believe that he is better off where he is now then where he was before.
Would you have rather of seen him not in Gods house? not dedicated to the lord? And not using the giftings which God has given him?
Would you have rather seen him never return to the church and instead feel sorry for himself?
Ps Brian is a man who talks with God – I wouldnt
doubt his judgement.
But your judgement I would.
Vote:September 2nd, 2004 at 3:21 pm
blah
Vote:September 2nd, 2004 at 3:44 pm
naki-gurl,
I am not judging Ian – he is judged by God only. I’m only going on what the Bible clearly says. *As far as I can tell* you are biblically incorrect in your statements that:
a. Ian has done a full 180 degree turn, and
b. he is not living in sin anymore, he is married to ONE woman.
Unfortunately (and Ian knows this) the one woman he is married to is not his wife, he has divorced the one woman he WAS married to and is now living in adultery. The NT is quite specific about this, I can quote scriptural references if you need it. if Ian had done a full 180 degree repentence then he would not have remarried, instead followed the word of God and remained single, in which case he could be forgiven and assume a leadership role no problem.
Your other points:-
The Bible is quite clear also that acts committed while a non-beleiver don’t count, so there’s no problem with solo parents who have become Christians.
The Bible is also quite clear that if people do not repent and continue to sin then the church should reject them utterly. Destiny in Northland should have removed Brian from their church since he was remarried and therefore knowingly remaining in sin. These are not my idea’s – the Bible is quite specific on this point. So whether you beleive he is better off where he is now than he was before is biblically irrelevent – he has no place in the church because he is knowingly continuing to live in sin…
Sorry, nothing personal here, I’ve met Ian and he’s a nice man. It just seems to me that the sciptures concerning adultery in the church are pretty black and white on this subject. If I’m missing the boat here I welcome your biblical arguments for your side of the story, but please don’t just go on about how you believe he deserves a second chance etc, the church should be based on scripture – I think Paul had some pretty clear words about churches that strayed from the truth…
Vote:September 2nd, 2004 at 4:04 pm
“The Bible is quite clear also that acts committed while a non-beleiver don’t count, so there’s no problem with solo parents who have become Christians.”
Non-believer or non-commited christian? Because I commited sin while I was in the world – and yet I still believed in God and in Jesus… And my mother was a catholic when she divorced her first husband (wife-beater) then married my father?
Because Ian Bilby went out of the church and backslid, married Sophia Bilby, then returned to the church.
So are you saying that Myself and my mother are still living in sin and therefore are just as sinful as homosexuals? Even though now we are commited and submitted to God?
Are you saying that Ian Bilby will not go to Heaven then?
Vote:September 2nd, 2004 at 4:10 pm
Bibly shouldnt have been kicked out of church in Northland – I thought Jesus came to heal the sick?
Vote:September 2nd, 2004 at 6:23 pm
naki_gurl,
My arguments are based on:-
Mathew 19:9
“And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.” (note: the fornication bit refers to HER fornication in this case not his i.e. if Ians wife was the one who fornicated he could divorce and remarry but since it wasn’t her fornication but his he is busted)
Mark 10:11
“And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.”
Pretty straightforward. On the church in Northland…
1 Corinthians 5 (whole chapter)
Fornicators (of which adultery is a type) should be removed from the church and handed over to satan (too long to print it all – try reading it yourself).
On Ian going to heaven or not..
1 corinthians 6:9
“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate…”
Now I’m actually with you on this, to me it all sounds a little harsh, but then, I didn’t write the Bible, and thats what it says. of course it’s open to a little interpretation, but do a google on ‘bible divorce remarriage’ and you’ll see that pretty well everyone interprets it the same way – Ian is committing adultery while he is remarried regardless of whether he got remarried while he was backslidden or not.
As for you and your Mum, lets just stick to the point shall we since I have no idea of your circumstances…
Vote:September 2nd, 2004 at 6:44 pm
naki-gurl:
You said: “And while Ian Bilby is living to fufil his Godly purpose, I dont see any homosexuals/gays/lesbians etc running up the altar asking for forgiveness and repentance…”
Why on earth should gays or lesbians seek forgiveness? Unlike Ian Bilby they have not destroyed marriages.
“Also Dave there are women/couples in the church I attend who have children out of wedlock”
Like Pastor Brian
“And Ian Bibly had an affair – now he is married to ONE woman, and has been faithful to her.”
How do you know? He might well be fornicating his way through half the parish again.
“He is not living in sin anymore – hes married to a one WOMAN.”
His re-marriage is not recognised by the Church so he is living in sin.
“I believe that he is better off where he is now then where he was before.”
What sleeping with 10 – 20 different women? Yeah I hope he is better off now.
“Ps Brian is a man who talks with God – I wouldnt doubt his judgement.”
Talking with God is fine. Insisting, as Brian does, that God talks back to you is not so healthy. And it is incredibly scary to claim you would never doubt someone’s judgement – that is what slaves, not free thinking people do.
Vote:September 2nd, 2004 at 8:47 pm
Nice one David,
thats an interesting point for naki_gurl – *if* Ian ‘slips’ again and ‘lets his wife and church down’ by shagging a load of the female Destiny congregation, does that mean he can repent again and get *another* wife and become a leader at *another* church???
Surely if he then repents of *that* sin he must be welcomed back into the fold yet again, if naki_gurl is to be understood correctly. or is there a ‘three strikes and you’re out’ policy in the Bible somewhere that we have missed?
Vote:September 3rd, 2004 at 9:09 am
Woo!!
Vote:Let
September 3rd, 2004 at 11:41 am Vote:
September 4th, 2004 at 12:54 pm
Yo,
sorry about the lack of posts – my computer blew it’s hard drive and now I’ve been up playing Counterstrike all night.
Naki_gurl: thank you for finally providing what I think is a well thought out reply complete *with* Bible references. Like loads of these subjects they are open to interpretation and I think actually discussing what the Bible says is a bit more constructive than just going ‘I believe Pastor Brian…’. I don’t really care one jot about what happens to Ian or Destiny, but I like the discussion.
Having said that, one thing that bothers me a little about the Ian thing is that it wasn’t just an accidental slip up with one woman, which would have been pretty well understandable. I’ve been in a leadership position at a church in Auckland and it’s the Christian equivalent of being a rock star – the women put a lot of trust and reverrence in male church leaders and I think (given that quite a few of the female church population have turned to God because of failed relationships etc) that the lines can get a bit blurred and emotional attachments made. Most of the pastors I met were well aware of this, especially the more charismatic pentecostal ones.
So, it’s easy for a pastor to cross that line, and as I said, you can understand the odd slip up. But systematically having affairs into the double figures over a long period of time, well sorry, but to me thats an abuse of power that is verging on being a sexual predator, and speaks of some serious issues that leave me somewhat doubtful that those issues have been fully dealt with by a spot of repentence. All power to Brian then for giving him a fresh chance if he interprets the Bible that way, but I do hope he is keeping a bit of an eye on Ian.
Secondly, your comment…”And homosexuals have not destroyed marriages – ha-ha! My boss is a gay and her current partner left her husband for her. And the fact that homosexuals go against the grain of what marriage actually is (i.e. a man and a woman) means that they do ‘destroy marriages’.
Lets get back to what others were saying about this issue – marriage between man and woman only is *your* idea of marriage – not everyone elses. As I’ve said before – just because *you* beleive it don’t make it so.
The thing that started this off – the civil liberty Bill, is not about gay marriage. It’s about not descriminating against people for their sexual orientation. By creating laws against gays you don’t stop gay people, you just make it easier for them to be marginalized. That is something Jesus never did – in every encounter with a sinner – the rich guy, the prostitute etc he just challenged them not to carry on sinning. He *never* tried to influence the laws of the Jews or Romans, so I have a hard time trying to figure out why the church (and maxim) think that trying to create laws against sin is a biblical principle.
You are right that the message of Jesus is about forgiveness. It also appears to me that the message is about acceptance.
Vote:September 4th, 2004 at 1:56 pm
Ola,
Your first question is the kind that makes people invent phrases like ‘can of worms’. Is this rhetorical or personal??? Are you trying to delve into the murky subject of what constitutes backsliding as opposed to becoming an unbeliever and then a beleiver again???
Sorry but I think the answer to this one is dependent on circumstances and interpretation of the Bible, and most pastors would want to wrestle with it for a while before taking a stand on it I would think, except for the extreme ones. What if kids are involved? Do you have to get divorced again with all the hardship and pain that would involve? The few that espouse that view on the web seem to get shot down badly by other Christians (like naki_gurl) for being unforgiving. If you really want me to put my side of the argument I would say that *technically* according to the epistles they should divorce, but I can’t imagine Jesus ever recommending that.
In answer to your second question, I don’t go to Church. I grew up in a Christian family, went to a Baptist church, went to a Christadelphian church for a while (I still have somewhere a highly annotated wide-margin King James somewhere to prove it) then ended up a youth leader at one of the bigger Auckland churches for a while before the Church imploded. While living in Europe I had a good look at my beliefs and came to the inescapable conclusion that religion is a pile of bollocks. I’ve been much happier since.
In case you are wondering why I post, it’s because I enjoy the discussion. I have a lot of respect for real Christians i.e. the ones that get off their arse and go and help the poor and downtrodden without recognition (much like Jesus) and very little respect for egotistical showmen like Brian Tamaki, hence me posting on this thread.
Thanks for asking.
Vote:September 5th, 2004 at 1:08 am
Dave wrote : “I have a lot of respect for real Christians i.e. the ones that get off their arse and go and help the poor and downtrodden without recognition (much like Jesus) and very little respect for egotistical showmen like Brian Tamaki, hence me posting on this thread.”
I’m sorry, but I think you’ve crossed a line here. I don’t believe it’s for any Christian to judge another Christian’s motives. We can judge actions sometimes, but to judge motives is to tread on much thinner ice. I don’t agree with every detail of what Brian Tamaki does, but I would never, ever question his motives. There are times when I think he’s mistaken, but sincerely so.
As for the other question you raised – about whether Ian and Sophia Bilby’s marriage is “valid” (that wasn’t the word you used, but it’s what I think you meant), and if not, whether they should divorce now, the answer is an emphatic NO, they should not. The situation is parallel to the the Gibeonite affair in the book of Joshua. God commanded the Israelites not to make a treaty with the inhabitants of the land. They were tricked into making one with the Gibeonites. Joshua insisted that they
should honour it because an oath was involved. God evidently thought so, too, because (a) he granted a great victory to Israel in the war that followed, and (b) he cursed Israel in the time of King David because his predecessor, Saul, had executed the Gibeonites in violation of the treaty made centuries earlier. THAT WAS A TREATY THAT SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN, but what was done was done, and God REQUIRED that it should be honoured. It should not have been made, but breaking it would have been a greater evil than making it. I think the case of a remarried divorcee (whether Ian Bilby’s case or any other) is parallel. Maybe he should not have married Sophia. I’m in two minds about that. What I am emphatically clear about is that now that the marriage is A FACT, it should be honoured. There’s no two ways about that.
More murky is whether Ian Bilby should have been appointed to a leadership position at Destiny. Paul says that a church leader should be “the husband of one wife,” which would appear to rule out remarried divorcees, as well as polygamists. Once again, however, I would tentatively lean towards saying that “what’s done is done,” the appointment is a fact, and should now be honoured. It MAY have been an error of judgement on Brian Tamaki’s part. That said, I believe he had the best of motives for the choice he made. Brian Tamaki is to be applauded for his efforts to restore a broken and shattered man. I don’t know that I would endorse the WAY he’s gone about it, but he deserves praise for his intentions.
To Naki-Gurrl: Your admiration for your pastor is commendable. I wish all Christians would support their pastors the way you support yours. Just one thing, though: it is NOT a mark of disrespect to acknowledge that a pastor – any pastor – is only a man. I doubt that any Christian today could be considered to be of the same caliber as the apostle Peter. According to the book of Galatians, we see that even Peter got it wrong once, on a visit to Antioch, and Paul rebuked him for it. Even the greatest of Christians DO make mistakes. If Peter could, any Christian could – even Brian Tamaki. Naki-Gurrl, please don’t think anything I’ve said is intended to put your pastor down. I ADMIRE Brian Tamaki – let me say that clearly! That is not altered by the fact that I believe he can be mistaken sometimes. Actually, I believe it is kinder to a pastor to admit that he/she can be mistaken. To regard a pastor as infallible is to set him/her up for a fall – as it imposes a standard for them to live up to, which proves impossible. I think the kindest thing we can do for a pastor is to allow him/her to be human, to make mistakes. Brian Tamaki is a great man of God. So was Peter. Peter made mistakes. It is no disrespect to Brian Tamaki to suggest that his decision to appoint Ian Bilby to a leadership position may have been an error of judgement.
Blessings to all of you – to you, Dave, and to you, Naki-Gurrl, my sister:-)
David.
Vote:September 5th, 2004 at 1:08 pm
David,
nice post. Yeah maybe I have crossed a line but I since I’m not a Christian I’m prepared to make judgements about others motives – it’s only my opinion after all and (unlike most people) I know my opinions are a load of bollocks, so I never expect anyone to take them too seriously.
My comments about real Christians getting off their arse come from a background of watching the Western Christian church moving (I feel) further and further away from the teaching of the NT to the point now where churches like Destiny just make me wonder if they are reading the same Bible I used to read.
Heres a brief summary of what I think is the central tenant of the NT:-
Powerlessness: Jesus never tried to get power, in fact he actively shunned power, became a man, emptied himself, took upon himself the form of a slave, and died on a cross. This is **the** act that *gives* Christianity it’s power. Trying to ‘push’ the Christian church ahead by using power (i.e. a political party, maxim, big publicity stunts like marches, petitions etc) to me is the antithesis of what Jesus was about. The whole point of the temptation in the desert was that Jesus was wrestling with the temptation to use his power to make people do Gods will – the fact that he chose not to seems to have been missed by the modern Church.
I’ve worked alongside some amazing Christian people, the team at Auckland City Mission for example, day after day doing the hard yards of dealing with the kind of people no-one else wants to go near, for little reward and no recognition. For me these are the kind of people who exemplify Christianity. But’s that just me.
I got dragged along to a big Pentecostal church on the shore a while back by some friends. I can’t remember what I found most offensive – the pastors wife telling the congregation about how her kids had taught her how to do donuts in the church-paid-for ministerial HSV clubsport (with custom plates!), or some young numpty making out that we unbeleivers were really thick because we believed in evolution over creation theory (don’t even *get* me started on the that one).
So, sorry but churches like Destiny just make me cringe.
Oh, and Pensecola and the laughing revival – what the buggery-bollocks was *that*???
Dave
Vote:September 7th, 2004 at 3:25 pm
Hey!
I just want to say that every time/season has a purpose – and there was a time for Jesus to be silent and
Vote:September 9th, 2004 at 6:03 pm
“But as I said before it
Vote:September 10th, 2004 at 2:45 pm
haha!
God created the universe and everything in it!
He knows how many grains of sand are on the beach!
He knows every thought and desire of your heart!
You cant compete with God, even the devil looks
weak next to God.
My only advice to you “the first dave” would be to
not test God.
Bless you and have a good weekend!
Vote: