Revisiting Erebus
November 29th, 2004 at 10:16 am by David FarrarJim Anderton wants a Government declaration that the pilots of the aircraft that hit Mt Erebus were not responsible for the disaster.
I have mixed feelings on this. I certainly agree that Judge Mahon had it largely right and that Air New Zealand covered up, and that the reprogramming of the aircraft was the main factor.
But I am not sure one can go from that, to say the pilots had no responsibility. They were flying at a very low height in fog, and this was not a great idea, even if one is relying on the computer.
It has always seemed to me to be the combination of the Air NZ computer fault and the pilot’s decision to fly low in fog which cuased the crash. Trying to say it is all due to one side or the other 25 years on is fairly pointless.
No tag for this post.
November 29th, 2004 at 6:25 pm
It is difficult to avoid the conclusion that the pilot was responsible. After-all why did he disobey every rule in the book and fly that low. Well the answer was to give the passengers a decent view hence the conflict inherent in scenic flights. Air New Zeland is also to blame firstly for placing pressure on the pilot to give the passesngers a scenic flight and for the errors in the computer track. But the final responsibility was the pilots for flying that low. I just hope this priciple was reinforced if the pilot is going to ultimately cop it.
Vote:November 29th, 2004 at 8:43 pm
I think that Anderton – as usual – defines the idoiotic.
On a slightly different issue, while I was as horrified as everyone else about the crash, and the subsequent findings by Mahon, I find myself completely unmoved by tge whole anniversary. My explanation, and I think that I could suggest a universal rule here, is that the amount of press coverage in NZ is directly proportion to the amount of third rate journalists that get a free trip to somewhere vaguely interesting.
Vote:November 29th, 2004 at 8:47 pm
Actually, on reflection, I think Matt Robson defines the idiotic. At least the prospect of tax cuts crossed Jimbos desolete mind.
Vote:November 30th, 2004 at 8:53 am
I had the privilege of working with Gordon Vette for some years on this matter and naturally have read “Impact Erebus” (Vette), Verdict on Erebus (Mahon) and The Erebus Papers (Macfarlane).
Vote:All are quite clear on one point. The pilots were not flying in fog at low altitude. Photos taken just before impact from inside the cabin show clear air on each side of the plane.
They were flying in clear air but suffered from sector whiteout which was a novel experience at the time but is now in all the training manuals.
They simply could not see Erebus because of a trick of the diffusing of the polar light which creates a false horizon so you believe you are flying over flat ice (like McMurdo Sound) when you are actually flying into a mountain. What finally convinced Mahon was his own flight in the Antarctic when he too suddenly say Erebus “disappear” in clear air.
These conditions fooled everyone on the flight deck including Mulgrew who had been their before.
November 30th, 2004 at 8:55 am
I had the privilege of working with Gordon Vette for some years on this matter and naturally have read “Impact Erebus” (Vette), Verdict on Erebus (Mahon) and The Erebus Papers (Macfarlane).
Vote:All are quite clear on one point. The pilots were not flying in fog at low altitude. Photos taken just before impact from inside the cabin show clear air on each side of the plane.
They were flying in clear air but suffered from sector whiteout which was a novel experience at the time but is now in all the training manuals.
They simply could not see Erebus because of a trick of the diffusing of the polar light which creates a false horizon so you believe you are flying over flat ice (like McMurdo Sound) when you are actually flying into a mountain. What finally convinced Mahon was his own flight in the Antarctic when he too suddenly say Erebus “disappear” in clear air.
These conditions fooled everyone on the flight deck including Mulgrew who had been their before.
November 30th, 2004 at 9:01 am
The pilot had to be flying low to crash into the mountain, surely. I agree lighting conditions and the error in the computer track completely fooled the pilot, where he was. It must have, otherwise he would have taken evasive action.
Vote:November 30th, 2004 at 12:42 pm
While ANZ screwups were contributary factors it is ultimately the captain’s responsibility – and fault. There was confusion as to where they were but he continued to fly at WAY BELOW regulation altitudes. From memory, one of the crew said “I don’t like this” only moments before the crash so I think they knew things weren’t going well – and a prudent captain would have got above anything they could hit!
Vote:November 30th, 2004 at 3:30 pm
Sadly I agree Sean. The ultimate responsibility is the Captain’s providing that is clearly respected by the Airline. That is, I hope there was not undue pressure from the Airline on the Captain to fly at such low altitudes as it was a scenic flight. Given the personality of that dreadful Morrie Davis the CEO I cannot be so sure that the Airline did not place undue pressure on the Captain. Perhaps Mahon should have looked further into that.
Vote:November 30th, 2004 at 7:13 pm
The whole episode reminds me of the Titanic. Under pressure from management, the captain ignored iceberg warnings and went full steam ahead into one!
Vote:November 30th, 2004 at 7:26 pm
Yes Sean I like your Titanic analogy. Pity Mahon did not look further into management failure. Instead he go caught up with the science of white-out and the “orchestrated litany of lies” thing. But as a Judge he probably did not understand the concept of management failure. You know they way Air NZ managed the inherent conflict betweem low flying for a scenic flight/pilot accountability for safety. I guess Air NZ concluded that conflict cannot be resolved and cancelled all further flights. Our Judges have great skills but they have very little grasp of the way organisations work.
Vote:December 2nd, 2004 at 9:36 am
Have any of you read “I Impact Erebus”, “Verdict on Erebus” and the MacFarlane Papers?
Vote:Mahon was acutely aware of the management culture issue.
Who do you think was doing the orchestrating.
The pilots were not flying below regulated heights.
There are two standard heights: 16,000 feet, 6000 feet, and then the ability to fly lower in clear air.
They had clear air.
air New Zealand’s own advertisements and promotions for the flight emphasised that the planes would fly low if weather conditions were OK. Senior management had been on earlier flights which went down to 500 feet.
Pilots have to be able to descend below normal altitudes
December 26th, 2004 at 9:36 pm
I too have had the priviledge of working with Gordon Vette and of meeting the late Judge Mahon. I was working for Air NZ at the time of the accident and was, like the rest of the world, incredibly upset and full of total incomprehension as to how this could happen. My years of knowing and working with Gordon, after he had retired from Air New Zealand, showed me how this dreadful accident came about. Some blunders have worse consequences than others and this one must be one of the greatest. Admission and honesty would not have bought back those who were lost but it took people like Gordon and Judge Mahon to bring the truth to the country and if blame needed to be laid then I think they did a fine job with their explanations. And fortunately for those of us who travel by air today, because of the research that went into the ‘white-out’ theory, the vertical ground proximity warning system was established. The proceeds from the sales of “Impact Erebus” were dedicated to all aircraft, worldwide, to have the necessary equipment installed on board as a safeguard against this ever happening again. That must show the conviction of their beliefs and to those believers, who gave up so much of their life and careers for the cause, I will always hold in the highest regard.
Vote:January 9th, 2005 at 6:47 am
On a very personal note, I would like to say that I do not believe it was pilot error, I belive it was one bad mistake after another leading to a catastrophe. I think the pilots did exactly what was expected of them and ANZ did pressure pilots to make it a fanastic scenic flight. ANZ tried to whole-heartedly blame the pilots from day 1 until the information about the flight data turned up.
After losing both my parents in the Erebus crash I have complete contempt for the way Air New Zealand handled the situation. Although I was only 16 at the time, I read every peice of information about the crash and every book that was written. Air New Zealand treated my 2 brothers and I with complete disrespect, it took 5 years, a team of lawyers and the NZ victims families had to form a consortium before we got any settlments. Since then several overseas people told me that ANZ settled with them a few months after the crash.
25 years later all I can say is I hope ANZ learned something from their mistakes of the Erebus crash.
Vote:January 9th, 2005 at 6:49 am
On a very personal note, I would like to say that I do not believe it was pilot error, I belive it was one bad mistake after another leading to a catastrophe. I think the pilots did exactly what was expected of them and ANZ did pressure pilots to make it a fanastic scenic flight. ANZ tried to whole-heartedly blame the pilots from day 1 until the information about the flight data turned up.
After losing both my parents in the Erebus crash I have complete contempt for the way Air New Zealand handled the situation. Although I was only 16 at the time, I read every peice of information about the crash and every book that was written. Air New Zealand treated my 2 brothers and I with complete disrespect, it took 5 years, a team of lawyers and the NZ victims families had to form a consortium before we got any settlments. Since then several overseas people told me that ANZ settled with them a few months after the crash.
25 years later all I can say is I hope ANZ learned something from their mistakes of the Erebus crash.
Vote:January 21st, 2005 at 10:13 am
Kate – I have re-opened this post for you, so you can comment on it, as requested.
Vote: