UK Politics
September 29th, 2005 at 7:27 pm by David FarrarOkay I know I’m meant to be in the UK on holiday, but I can never resist political meetings when I get a chance to attend. For me that is relaxation 
Two hours after I flew in to Heathrow on Tuesday (GMT) I ended up at a meeting with some UK thinktanks and lobby groups discussing how to build up a constituency for lower taxes. The main guest was one of the top Republican pollsters, but they added me on also so we talked about taxation and polling from both the NZ and US experiences. Was a fun session, and going to meet the Washington pollsters at length next time I am over in DC.
Fell asleep at 6 pm so up nice and early on Wednesday. In the morning had a private tour around the House of Lords and House of Commons by one of the Conservative Researchers. Will post photos later. Some absolutely amazing portraits and statues. An incredible sense of history. God we are so young in NZ.
Then had lunch at the Parliamentary Restaurant which like the NZ one is heavily subsidised. God bless the taxpayer. A full meal for just over a pound
After lunch went to Conserative Party Campaign Headquarters. Somewhat larger than in NZ – they have over 120 staff. But not a lot more space – battery hens have more room than many of their staff. I was there the day after the Party had voted to reject changes to how they elect their leader. The outgoing Leader Michael Howard wanted to go back to the system of the MPs electing the Leader, but it failed to get 67% support. So the MPs will short-list to two candidates and then every party member of mroe than three months standing will get to choose between the two.
This morning I am off to attend the official launch of David Davis for the leadership. He is widely regarded as the front runner and almost beyond doubt will be one of the final two. Opinion is divided as to whether the other will be Kenneth Clarke, David Cameron or Liam Fox. I met Fox in Washington in July and he is seen somewhat as a dark horse possibility to emerge as a compromise candidate. All but Clarke are euro-skeptic.
Have managed to do some shopping and sightseeing also. But much busier than I expected, so not quite as relaxing as I had hoped. Still five weeks is plenty of time to unwind.
Related posts:
- A conference which counted
- One down, two to go
- Uncle Sam and the Greens
- Hubbard on women in politics
September 29th, 2005 at 9:35 pm
All but Clarke don’t stand a chance of getting the Tories back in government at the next general election. David Davis was sound on the issues I dealt with him on, but is not regarded as having enough gravitas to present a credible challenge to Labour next time around. David Cameron is widely expected to end up supporting Clarke. Liam Fox is not only seen as a dark horse, but also by most sane and rational people as a complete neo-con wannabe who doesn’t stand a chance. If you want to find out the leadership betting form on the Tory leadership, the blog to read is this one:
Vote:http://5thnovember.blogspot.com/
There’s also lively debate over on this one:
http://www.oncemore.co.uk/ which is team blog like Sir Humphreys.
September 29th, 2005 at 9:46 pm
“An incredible sense of history. God we are so young in NZ”
David, just because the Don Brashian elements of National try and pretend we don’t have a pre-European history, we do. You know, those Murries.
Vote:September 29th, 2005 at 11:27 pm
According the The New Zealand Encylclopedia:
“Archaeological linguistic and cultural evidence today has discredited the Great Fleet theory, and a general consensus among scholars now is that the Polynesians originally moved into the Pacific from the West, spread eastwards, and that the Māori came most recently from the eastern Pacific (that is Tahiti or the Marquesas). They began to arrive in New Zealand about 1000 years ago.”
Now with that in mind there is something amazing in standing in say a Roman Bath house complete with amazing mozaics and stone statues and knowing that it was built before your own country was even discovered.
But what will be really interesting is if Maori stop screaming “we were here first” and started to look at some of the other evidence which raise the possibilities that they weren’t and instead it may have been the Chinese who first came to New Zealand shores or even more dreaded celts.
Vote:September 30th, 2005 at 12:56 am
Gerry first of all lose the fucking attitude.
Secondly unfortunately the pre-European history was not recorded in writing, had no literature or significant art, no buildings, no particular form of government etc so not much to get excited about. Yes they were here around 800 years before Europeans but there is little recorded or known about those times – possibly less than almost any other culture due to the isolation.
So frankly it doesn’t compare to Europe with over 2,000 years of culture and history. 1,000 years before NZ was even discovered one had Greeks and Romans with sharemarkets, taxation, rule of law, wine bars, democracy, a post office etc etc.
Vote:September 30th, 2005 at 2:15 am
David Farrar wrote:
“…wine bars…”
David,
Please go and partake of the aforementioned – thats what holidays are for. If not, then I shall lock you up in the highest tower I can find.
Yours in japes and jocularities,
The Queen
Vote:September 30th, 2005 at 2:19 am
Young and beautiful.
Vote:September 30th, 2005 at 2:44 am
Think-tanks for building consensuses for lower taxes…. that’s pretty much a reductio of right wing politics right there! Try to build consensus for smaller govt if you want, but being for low taxes *itself* is just unconvincing and deceptive (and encouraging of people to deceive themselves) in, say, the NZ case or fiscally catastrophic in countries with reserve currency status such as the US. I could go on, but won’t… The left are friggin’ awful in almost every country, but good God the right is just hopeless.
Vote:September 30th, 2005 at 9:53 am
Chill down MR Farrar. Those are some fairly lofty pronouncements – the bracing English air must be getting to your head.
‘No significant art’? The world famous ‘Te Maori’ exhibition that toured the world to high acclaim throughout the late 80′s clearly doesn’t meet your artistic standards.
‘No buildings’? Clearly the pa that withstood barrages of artillery pounding are likewise insignificant.
And a rich and now well-documented oral history surely must transcend ‘little known’ to you.
Fair cop, it’s your blog, but you’re accusing GERRY of having an attitude?
This is separatist thinking at it’s most blatant – the attempt at marginalising what is a rich and storied history, one that has contributed much to how we view ourselves as Kiwis today.
Maori history and culture is intrinsic to our national identity. Live with it.
Vote:September 30th, 2005 at 10:18 am
Hi David
I hope to get to go to the conservative Party Conference. You will love it. I did when I went about 15 years ago. It’s in Blackpool, starting on the 3rd. You will find it very bracing there.
There is something typically British about a trashy seaside resort like Blackpool, and I say that as a Yorkshireman, but you will find Blackpool an interesting experience all the same.
As for the history/ culture arguments. True Maori culture is important, but when I was stood outside York Minster a year or two ago, and there was this statue dedicated to some Roman Emperor dated 307AD or something, yes, you realise just how new New Zealand is.
Vote:Looking at York, with its Roman walls, medieval streets, etc, you do realise that certainly European culture was superior to what existed at the time.
But before then, other cultures or civilisations were superior, eg Egyptians, Sumerians, Aztecs, etc.
And the left need to realise that just because you accept that European civilisation was more advanced that what Maori achieved, that does not make you some kind of racist.
September 30th, 2005 at 10:34 am
I mean I hope you, david, get to go to the conference.
Vote:Alas, i’ll be stuck in Auckland.
September 30th, 2005 at 12:01 pm
The House of Commons is not that old – the interior was mostly destroyed by a Nazi Bomb during WWII. They then kicked the Lords out and used their chamber until it was rebuilt.
Vote:September 30th, 2005 at 12:37 pm
Pete, I suggest you read Kerry Howe’s “The Quest for Origins” to get a better picture of NZ settlement and the absurdity of the “celtic” claims.
It has pissed of people on all sides of the debate, Maori (it says their ancestors only settled here about 800 years ago, not 1 or 2 thousand as some want to claim), debunks the Heyardhal “They came from South America) myth and also pulls apart the sad ones who think the celts got here first. Pissing off so many people with good scholarship – there’s something to it.
That doesn’t diminish the achievements of Maori culture in any way, and Te Maori certainly emphaised the skill and beauty of much Maori culture.
London, and related UK cities, old but not that old. Stand in the streets of Damascus or Aleppo and know that people were there living in cities, trading, investing,fighting, marrying, paying for sex, sleeping with their own sex as well as the opposite one, 6000 years ago when just about everywhere else on the globe was devoid of strong material and urban civilisations and feel truly humble.
Vote:September 30th, 2005 at 12:41 pm
Will you bleeding hearts get over it? DPF had just made the perfectly valid and correct statement “God we are so young in NZ.” Like a lot of other kiwis (and aussies, for that matter) who have been/are in the UK, when confronted with just how OLD the places, culture, architechture, etc are, he feels a sense of wonderment.
Call me racist if you like but quite frankly I am happy to say there was more to European culture 2000 years ago than there was to Maori culture 2000 years ago. That’s just the plain reality and no amount of cultural relativist bleeding harp crap makes it less true.
Vote:September 30th, 2005 at 12:45 pm
Will you bleeding hearts get over it? DPF had just made the perfectly valid and correct statement “God we are so young in NZ.” Like a lot of other kiwis (and aussies, for that matter) who have been/are in the UK, when confronted with just how OLD the places, culture, architechture, etc are, he feels a sense of wonderment.
Call me racist if you like but quite frankly I am happy to say there was more to European culture 2000 years ago than there was to Maori culture 2000 years ago. That’s just the plain reality and no amount of cultural relativist bleeding harp crap makes it less true.
Vote:September 30th, 2005 at 1:03 pm
Chris, don’t you think it’s a bit rich bashing the bleeding hearts given your history of po-faced histrionics in commenting?
Yeah, yeah, I know, I’m not playing the man not the ball etc, but you’ll appreciate that I find myself rather at odds with myself when I actually agree with much of your underlying point. I would suggest however that you consider using the word civilisation rather than culture in the first sentence of the second paragraph. Really, just because I think it’s really stupid to try and quantify culture. Or was that just a grammatical misstep? Or were you being provocative?
Vote:Or is it just that my heart is bleeding?
September 30th, 2005 at 1:13 pm
I’d be keen to see some evidence of my ‘po-faced histrionics’ – I’ve always thought I’ve been fairly rational in commenting (apart from the odd aside about ‘freedom’ in the days up to the election).
Culture/civilisation – I’m not sure if there is a real substantive point of difference between the two in the context of the point I was making. Didn’t choose one over the other in order to be provocative, no.
Vote:September 30th, 2005 at 1:55 pm
Chris, I was mostly thinking of your rally calls to freedom. They always strike me as over-ardent, but that could be just me not really believing in anything. Certainly “po-faced histrionics” may have been a little over the top, but like I said, I was connipting (do like my verbing?) over roughly agreeing with you.
I have to disagree as to the substantive point of difference between culture and civilisation. To my mind, culture is an all-together more ephemeral notion than civilisation. Which is curious given I would say that civilisation intersects with culture – I would draw you a venn diagram, but I can’t, and it would be lame. I think you open yourself up to way more fluid semantics if you use a term like culture. Civilisation is much harder to challenge. You don’t have to be a relativist to debate the point on culture, you just need a different semantic definition (which necessarily changes the substantive value of the comparison).
Vote:Um, yeah, that got away on me. But anyway, to avoid provocation I’d stick to civilisation over culture.
September 30th, 2005 at 2:08 pm
Hi MickeyBill,
Kerry Howe’s book “The Quest for Origins” outlines just one of the view of academic thought on this subject .
One of the problems we face in NZ that any thought discussion on other possible avenues are quickly thrown out the window and never pursued fully.
I’m not saying in anyway that Maori weren’t the first people to settle NZ marely suggesting there is some very interesting pices of evidence that suggest that they may not have been.
But these days that real investigation into NZ Origins have all but ceased and any suggestion contry to traditional views are quickly shut down as being silly, the authors are called racist etc.
But Remember at one time the traidtional ways the Earth was Flat etc so perhaps instead of getting all in a flap as Maori generally do on the subject of Pre Maori NZ, we would be better off to actually look at the subject with and open viewpoint?
Or perhaps Maori have reasons of their own
Vote:September 30th, 2005 at 3:21 pm
Kerry Howe’s book “The Quest for Origins” outlines just one of the view of academic thought on this subject .
Bollocks, it outlines many views from many sources. Most of them are poorly supported garbage, but they are presented. An I use this quote as a sig sometimes:
Vote:“We can ridicule some of those earlier interpretations, but we need to recognise that they were commonly regarded as the ‘truth’, and were backed by the most rigorous and sophisticated scholarship of the time – claims we commonly make about ourselves today.” KR Howe, The Quest for Origins.
September 30th, 2005 at 3:37 pm
“David, just because the Don Brashian elements of National try and pretend we don’t have a pre-European history, we do. You know, those Murries.”
Ah yes, and what a fine and glorious history it was too. Just think of everything their society achieved in those 500 years (but wait, it’s 1000 years now right? that adds more legitimacy).
What? You can’t think of anything Maori actually invented (in terms of ideas or products). That language of a few hundred words and a lifespan of around 30 years must count for something though.
Besides, it’s not every culture where you can tell who’s king becauns they’re the only one not covered in their own shit.
Vote:September 30th, 2005 at 3:50 pm
Are you telling me that Howes personal opinions and views aren’t reflected in his writing? Of course they are and as a result you have an book based on his interpretation of the research he has used an completed on his own.
Only by general discussion by both by academia and the greater NZ population can this subject be properly discussed. At the moment though the subject of Pre Maori NZ History has reached a point that its become such an emotive issue that most avoid it all together.
This has occured with even general Maori Studies where for example discussing the Maori Practicing Canabilism and Slavery have become so politically incorrect its now simply avoided and ignored.
*Note: I am unsure if Kerry Howes is a male/female. If how Kerry is a female and either she or anybody else here has any experienced any sort of offence over me refering to her and him etc I apologise in advance.
Vote:September 30th, 2005 at 6:27 pm
Prof Howe is a man.
People do talk about Maori practices of slavery and cannabilism.
To claim that “Only by general discussion by both by academia and the greater NZ population can this subject be properly discussed.” is simply absurd: Can we only discuss atomic physics is the entire population joins in? As a subject most people are not really interested in finding out anything that challenges their existing preconceptions.Have a look at the idiotic rant from the coward ‘anon’ for an example.
Racism is a real force, and there are still many people in this country who regard anyone with a dark skin as less than those with a white one.
What Kerry Howe has tried to do is to analyse the best (and some of the worst) scholarship and give a good picture of current research, and this is borne out by DNA evidence, botany and linguistics. We actually do konw far more about this topic than people did fifty years ago.
Of course this work has, as I said before, been unpopular with Maori as well as with Pakeha – usually because they share a folk belief that their ancestors moved here at least 2000 years ago.
Vote:September 30th, 2005 at 7:23 pm
A lot of pompous gits wrote:
“blahblahblahblahblah”
David,
At last count in the Royal Tower/Winebar census, winebars outnumbered towers 20:1. Being a numbers man, I suggest you play the odds.
Ignore these common peasants and their blatherskiting ways, and go enjoy your holiday.
Yours in hijinks and hilarities,
The Queen
Vote:October 1st, 2005 at 4:48 pm
Yes, wouldn’t it be great to live in the past and be a lord, with serfs and common rabble paying you to be their better. Ah, those beautiful even more conservative days. We just can’t let them go.
Vote: