Winners and Losers
October 1st, 2005 at 8:48 pm by David FarrarOkay now we have final results, who are the winners and losers amongst the party leaders.
Winners
Helen Clark. Never mind that it will be tougher to govern – that is preferable to not governing. She has her precious third term, and a secure legacy.
Pita Sharples. Beat John Tamihere (for which Labour will be indefinitely grateful) and has become a full co-leader with Tariana. They will both be very happy with where they are, and will be planning to grab the other three Maori seats in 2007. Actually by then there may be nine Maori seats up for grabs!
Major Loser
Winston Peters. He lost half his Caucus and his seat. Even worse he was looking for a while to be capable of getting 15% and becoming the major third party. And all wounds were self inflicted.
Medium Losers
Peter Dunne. Only three MPs was pretty much wose case scenario. He has spent a decade gobbling up minor parties (at last count around nine of them) to become a centrist party like the German Free Democrats. Hard to see how to bounce back well from this.
The Greens. They lost a third of their caucus, including possibly their most identifiable MP. They are unlikely to be in Cabinet and, if not, merely one of four minor supporting parties.
Jim Anderton. Losing Matt Robson means the party dies with Jim. It has no future.
Minor Losers
Don Brash. Lost an election, and will be kicking himself somewhat as it arguably certainly could have been won. Will have to face constant agre-related speculation about his leadership for the next 18 months, but if he rides that out and National takes a lead in the polls no-one will care about his age. Achieving an 18% growth in the party vote and winning ten more electorate seats will keep him as a revered leader for some time.
Rodney Hide. In one sense a electoral disaster as they lost a bigger proportion of Caucus than any other party, but by keeping ACT in Parliament at all, Rodney will be fairly happy. And holding Epsom will give them the security of not worrying every poll about whether they are over 5%.
No tag for this post.
October 1st, 2005 at 9:18 pm
I never liked Matt Robson and his extreme anti-gun ideas gone.
The Maori Party are the big winners in this election.
Labour: they just won – no great victory. Labour’s “don’t fix what ain’t broke” (attempting to sound like they represent your average New Zealander) won’t last for ever otherwise there will be no progress.
Vote:October 1st, 2005 at 9:21 pm
I never liked Matt Robson and his extreme anti-gun ideas.
The Maori Party are the big winners in this election.
Labour: they just won – no great victory. Labour’s “don’t fix what ain’t broke” (attempting to sound like they represent your average New Zealander) won’t last for ever otherwise there will be no progress.
Next election is guaranteed to National and ACT.
Vote:October 1st, 2005 at 9:23 pm
Election ’05 Winners and Losers
While on holiday in London, David Farrar has given us his thoughts on winners and losers for the election. I like much of his assessment, but I thought I would expand a little further on some of his assessments.
Vote:October 2nd, 2005 at 10:06 am
Surely Don is a “Major looser”. Isn’t the objective for a party in an election race to actually win?
Vote:October 2nd, 2005 at 10:33 am
DPF got a three-peat in September.
Vote:He backed Anthony Scalia for CJ of the US , Mark Blumsky for Wellington Central, Don Brash for PM.
Is there a category called ‘left the country’ for this amazing prescience.
Who will he pick for next Tory party leader ?
October 2nd, 2005 at 10:56 am
Oh, if you’re talking about losers I’d have to say the pollsters and media have bled credibility this campaign like a haemophiliac in a blender.
Vote:October 2nd, 2005 at 12:53 pm
Why Labour Won the Election
Not because of “policies”.. not because “Helen Klark is a great leader”, not because of any of those facile platitudes. Labour won because leftists have steadily and incrementally attacked NZ’s original culture, a culture of independence and pride in that independence, and changed it to a dependency culture.
Labour won by incrementally destroying our education system, so that graduates from schools or universities are unable to read write or do maths, have no knowledge of history, but are soaked in modern day Marxist based collectivist ideology.
Labour won by placing leftist sympathizers in positions of influence in the media, with cronyists in charge at NZ’s most influential news and opinion outlet TVNZ, broadcasting on TV One and TV Two, and ensuring there were other similar leftist cronyists broadcasting and writing at other influential outlets such as TV3 and The NZ Herald.
Labour won by buying the votes of the non productive with money they steal from the productive. They take money from people who will not vote Labour and give it to supporters of Helen Klark.
Labour won by smearing the opposition with unfounded charges of lying and complicity with extreme sects, and other such unwarranted slurs repeated and promoted faithfully by its yellow backed dogs in the media.
Labour won by the words of its media acolytes, who reported falsely on polling and publicised opinions that influenced voting patterns. Such as the widespread discrediting of ACT’s polling in Epsom by Herald opinion writers.
Labour won by stealing money from taxpayers coffers and using it to print publicity material that should have been paid for by the Labour party.
In a nutshell, Labour won this election by means of deceit trickery lies smears fraud and duplicity, but worst of all, by means of their constant attacks on NZ’s culture, where they seek to turn it Eastern European, and make it a totalitarian leftist state where any idea or spoken word that challenges the authority of socialism is adjudged “inappropriate”, or socially destructive.
What a victory. Another step towards reducing NZ to the kind of hollow shell that all socialist states become, a country with its heart torn out by welfarism and its off-shoots, crime, violence, sloth and dependency. A country where the churning of worthless welfare dollars spent in retail outlets by dole bludgers and over paid work for the dole public servants and bureaucrats is mistaken for economic progress, while investment and infrastructure dwindles and shrinks to nothing.
NZ is fast becoming (if it is not that already), a sad little soviet state populated by barbarians and philistines, a state that real people flee by thousands as they become sickened by its deteriorating moral, political and structural condition. So much for the victories of the left. Where do these blind leftist fools bludgers and thieves think such things will end? Eventually, there can really only be one outcome.
Vote:October 2nd, 2005 at 1:24 pm
NZF is basically a dead duck built around the personality of Winston Peters. Losing Tauranga was a big dent to his prestige. The Party has no future other than to make it more difficult for National to win elections. They will be fighting for their life next time having lost their lifeline in Tauranga. As a party they will become quite unstable if the Labour Government they are supporing becomes unpopular.
Vote:October 2nd, 2005 at 2:38 pm
ACT only had a minor lose? Shouldn’t it read Major lose!
Vote:Peters NZF may have lost half caucus, but ACT lost 7 of their 9 MP’s.
I wonder what the “Magnificent Seven” will be up to in the near future?
October 2nd, 2005 at 2:46 pm
Well ‘Red Baiter’ your old mate Jim Bolger could have stopped what you believe to be a slide in NZ’s culture. But he sat on his hands and did nothing. Most of the PC agender we have today was allowed by the Bolger/Shipley govt. As the saying goes ..If you make your bed, lye in it!
Vote:October 2nd, 2005 at 2:53 pm
Sad sad sad..if i were a tory right now I would be thinking about opening a vain and doing the rest of NZ’ders a favour…
Vote:October 2nd, 2005 at 2:54 pm
Sad sad sad..if i were a tory right now I would be thinking about opening a vein and doing the rest of NZ’ders a favour…
Vote:October 2nd, 2005 at 4:10 pm
Red Baiter…You are right on the mark and in the process have written quite the best blog I have read.
Vote:October 2nd, 2005 at 4:14 pm
Yes, I agree Cadmus. The Bolger/Shipley era was the biggest disaster for right wing politics in memory. Trouble is, too many of the ideologically confused dissemblers who were around then are still around, and they’re the reason why the National Party and Don Brash find it so difficult to articulate an anti-socialist position. The party is not united in its objectives, and those aiming for the right’s traditional objective of small low taxing government are continually undermined by a bunch of white ants who should really be in the centre faction of the Labour party.
Vote:October 2nd, 2005 at 5:33 pm
Redbaiter,
Keep up the paranoia and self-pity; it’s so endearing.
> a country with its heart torn out by welfarism
You really don’t let the facts get in the way of your whining do you? The unemployment and DPB benefits currently total about 5% of govt spending and are at historic lows. But I recite this fact knowing full well that it will mean nothing to you.
Vote:October 2nd, 2005 at 5:40 pm
The biggest loser of all has not been mentioned. It is New Zealand. Let down badly by a party which saw winning the campaign as more important than winning the election. Now New Zealand will suffer another three years or less of the most corrupt and imoral egime in its history. Those on the left who derided National for ‘going it alone’ turned out to be right.
Vote:October 2nd, 2005 at 5:59 pm
Reading Adolf and Redbaiter it is only a matter of time before the Nats tear them self apart.
Vote:Thinking about it that would probably be the best thing. Two parties Nat right and Nat light then let the voters decide. also no probs with coalition partners.
October 2nd, 2005 at 10:39 pm
Guess who thought that winning the campaign was more important than the country – remember which side offered a last ditch attempt to buy votes with a 5c litre reduction in petrol tax.
Who in their right mind would follow the US which has their deficit out of control as stated by Alan Greenspan in a candid moment.
The only person ever convicted for fraud while an MP was Donna from ACT. Her malfeasance dated back to the Shipley years when the PIPI foundation bypassed all normal funding processes on the OK of Tau Henare and other cabinet ministers . If they didnt provide the funds, they didnt get her vote, end of story. Alamein Kopu was on a similar deal. They both used lavisly funded Maori organisations as their personal cash cow. Alamein being merely disorganised rather than the venal Donna.
The rest of Adolfs huffing and puffing has led to no court action for any Labour minister, reckless drivers being convicted for endangering the saftey of others werent labour officials
Vote:October 3rd, 2005 at 8:14 am
Readbaiter: “Labour won by placing leftist sympathizers in positions of influence in the media, with cronyists in charge at NZ’s most influential news and opinion outlet TVNZ, broadcasting on TV One and TV Two, and ensuring there were other similar leftist cronyists broadcasting and writing at other influential outlets such as TV3 and The NZ Herald.”
Master ‘Baiter, wait till the echo comes back and listen to yourself there. Exactly *how* did Labour place its “leftist cronyists” at the Herald and TV3? Is there an evil secret plot that we need to know about? Or are you just as divorced from reality as your post suggests?
Cheers,
Vote:RB
October 3rd, 2005 at 8:43 am
Logix, you forgot to include Welfare for Families. Cheers.
Vote:October 3rd, 2005 at 9:12 am
Redbaiter: “Yes, I agree Cadmus. The Bolger/Shipley era was the biggest disaster for right wing politics in memory.”
But they *won three elections*. That’s the point, surely?
Cheers,
Vote:RB
October 3rd, 2005 at 9:44 am
That the print media in NZ (including the Herald) are 90% leftist and that journalism schools are staffed by leftists and that university lecturers on the subject are leftists and that TV One and National radio are outrageously leftist and that TV3′s prime presenters Campbell and Herschfeld are leftist and that script writers for popular shows are leftist etc etc etc is all just a coincidence??
Have you not read any of the numerous articles referencing the fact that journalists have to subscribe to leftist culture to find employment in the media? Have you not read Bernard Goldberg? Are all the people complaining of media bias delusional?? Pfft.. The left has its long term agenda, and media control is at the top of the list.
Where’s NZ’s Rush Limbaugh?????????????????????
Winning elections???? Shipley Bolger in their racist hand wringing politically correct ineffectuality and ideological confusion merely laid the foundations for the current socialist government. Labour at least has the drive and decisiveness to pursue its own ideological ambitions while it is in power.
Vote:October 3rd, 2005 at 10:13 am
“That the print media in NZ (including the Herald) are 90% leftist and that journalism schools are staffed by leftists and that university lecturers on the subject are leftists and that TV One and National radio are outrageously leftist and that TV3′s prime presenters Campbell and Herschfeld are leftist and that script writers for popular shows are leftist etc etc etc is all just a coincidence??”
Clearly, you’re right. A secret cabal of leftists has hijacked the public health system to implant a secret “leftist” chip in the brains of unsuspecting New Zealanders and is secretly directing a, er, secret plan. Cunning, though …
Unfortunately, the edtors of the Press, the Dominion Post and the Herald (whose business journalists campaigned tirelessly for National, and whose editorials did everything but direct readers not to vote Labour) were able to disable their secret chips, as were Leighton Smith, Tau Henare and virtually every other commercial talk radio host.
Or … maybe more people liked Labour than liked National. It’s worth considering as an alternative explanation, I think.
Cheers,
Vote:RB
October 3rd, 2005 at 10:19 am
Redbatier drooled: ‘Are all the people complaining of media bias delusional?’
Here’s a little errand for you – take a look at any left-wing blog (there was an example on Frogblog last week, re the Greens-business leaders meeting) and you’ll find constant accusations of right-wing media bias (because the media are controlled by big business, you know). Labour are constantly complaining about the media mis-representing them (Cullen esp). Gerhard Schroeder – a left wing politician in Germany – just launched an attack on his countries press moaning about right-wing media manipulation.
So my answer to your question is this – people who complain about media bias ARE somewhat delusional. Generally they’re partisan buffoons like yourself who can’t cope when reality conflicts with their chosen ideology and decide to refute reality (in this case by claiming that it’s all just a big media lie) rather than reconsider their own position.
Vote:October 3rd, 2005 at 10:40 am
Of course extreme leftists complain that the leftist media are not far left enough for them, and many of those complaining as you say Dim, are conspiracy theorists who like to propagate the myth, (the one they were fed by their leftist university lecturers and journalism school instructors) that “big business controls” the media. Its fairy tale nonsense. Murdoch owns some of the most left wing papers out there. The reality is he’s only interested in the bottom line. Its the Editors and journalists, overwhelmingly leftist, who control the news and editorial content.
Where are the rightist commentators? Not in the Herald, except very occasionally. They’re not on National radio. They’re not on TV One (maybe your extreme left friends think Kim Hill or Brian Edwards or Pam Corkery or Susan Wood or Paul Holmes are right wing?) They’re not on Channel Three. Campbell and Herschfeld are admitted extreme leftists. Where are the rightists? I say again, where’s NZ’s Rush Limbaugh????? NZ gets its news and opinion thru a solid wall of leftists filtering their output to conform to and further their ideological beliefs
Vote:October 3rd, 2005 at 10:55 am
“where’s NZ’s Rush Limbaugh?????”
Moribund in a painkiller-induced stupor, if the US’s Rush Limbaugh example is anything to follow.
Vote:October 3rd, 2005 at 11:08 am
m-baiter…the recent stoush with Jeanette F and Gerry B and Sean P on national radio, where it was quite obvious that Sean was matey with Gerry, but quite the opposite with Jeanette, does this not factor into your conclusion…
“They’re not on National radio”
But they were/are…how bout wacky old Garth George ? NBR ? Did you ever see the interview with Kim Hill and John Pilger ?
Damn facts.
“Murdoch owns some of the most left wing papers out there. The reality is he’s only interested in the bottom line”. Kerry Packer, no small medit magnate, has often “leans” (more like smacks out) on editors to edit/pull content. He’s had TV shows pulled mid air that he didn’t like.
Yep, damn facts…and damn lefty’s caring about other people… how dare they
Vote:October 3rd, 2005 at 11:13 am
Tau henare? Well there you go. If there was ever any proof that the NZ media is largely leftist, it is their seeking refuge in the claim that the confused socialist Tau Henare is a right winger. For God’s sake..!!!
Vote:October 3rd, 2005 at 11:16 am
The real winners were the Communists and Socialists for they will form the next government Whilst I agree with you Redbaiter what we must do now is to continue to expose the Left for the unethical immoral and throughly bad governance that they practice.The people have spoken and they are always right.We must continue to work to convince those who vote for the Left that they are selling themselves out to people who want power for the sake of power and who use bribery and corruption to get what they want.The battle has begun.
Vote:October 3rd, 2005 at 11:21 am
“they are selling themselves out to people who want power for the sake of power” – the national party to a tee!
Vote:October 3rd, 2005 at 11:26 am
The real winners are the people of New Zealand, who kept the fundamentalists from taking over the machinery of government – and they did it without blood being spilled. It’s time for the Right to think carefully about how far it’s willing to go to gets in hands on the levers.
Vote:October 3rd, 2005 at 11:40 am
Redbaiter, man you need a chill pill. From looking at your posts it seems clear you have incipient paranoid schizophrenia. Get some help man, you have at best a VERY tenuous grip on reality. Oh, and if you don’t like the way NZ is going, piss off to your beloved US of A and help them stamp on the poor and invade some other country on trumped up, illegal pretexts. Grow up.
Vote:October 3rd, 2005 at 11:52 am
If you don’t think there is a massive left wing media bias
Vote:Look at the talking points on a few right wing blogs and then the talking points on a few left wing blogs.
Surely its not coincidental that the talking points on the left wing blogs and in the mainstream media will be virtually the same?
October 3rd, 2005 at 11:53 am
Funny isn’t it, how leftists assure you they are not communists, at the same time as they advocate a Stalinist solution like exile for dissenters.
Like to put me in a gulag wouldn’t you “redsunderthebed’, and you attempt to do just that. You see, the left are too sophisticated today to build real gulags. They construct them with politically correct barbed wire that attempts to make a social outcast of anybody who challenges their cultural dominance.
Vote:October 3rd, 2005 at 11:57 am
“Where are the rightist commentators? …
Where are the rightists? I say again, where’s NZ’s Rush Limbaugh?????”
We sent them all to America, it raised the average IQ of both countries, now thats a win win!
Vote:October 3rd, 2005 at 12:05 pm
“Tau henare? Well there you go. If there was ever any proof that the NZ media is largely leftist, it is their seeking refuge in the claim that the confused socialist Tau Henare is a right winger. For God’s sake..!!!”
Silly me. It was that cunning standing-for-election-for-the-National-Party ruse that caught me out.
Presumably Paul Holmes (who voted National), Leighton Smith, John Banks, Danny Watson, Larry Williams and Justin du Fresne are of similar odour. Along with Fran O’Sullivan, the NBR staff and all the Herald’s business columnists. Covert commies, the lot.
Cheers,
Vote:RB
October 3rd, 2005 at 12:09 pm
I think you’re right Red. There is obviously a left-wing conspiracy in operation, for views such as yours can only be the work of a mischevious Leftie attempting to discredit the right wing in NZ. After all no-one would actually believe a real conservative would write such drivel. I for one see through you and do not for a moment take you seriously. The references to Limbaugh were a dead giveaway though…
Vote:October 3rd, 2005 at 12:15 pm
Anyone that supports the right, don’t be to worried. Simply, Rodney Hide is the first NEW leader to ever take a party started by others through an election out the other side still intact. Watch National, it was clear in the televised debates I watched through the election. John Key’s not only had the measure of any of the best that Labour had to throw at him, but in fact tore Michael Cullin up for shit paper, the other thing I found very heartening was the fact that there is now a very deep pool of talant in the National party. Helen will be gone mid term, leaving Mehare and Goff to go forth, if she makes it that far.
Vote:So people watch the bitch squirm over the next few months, it will make the election result look like a mini hick up, compared to what is coming. Round 1 Phillip Field,(if he’s not gone by lunch time, then definitely by afternoon tea)
October 3rd, 2005 at 12:27 pm
More ammunition. To call that list of pinkos (perhaps with the exception of Leighton Smith) right wing RB is just proof of what a dearth there is of real Conservative comment.
.. and forget voting for National, at present they only represent slightly less socialism. Look here’s the criteria. A Conservative has to promote the idea of low taxes and small government. You tell me which of the commentators you have listed above advocates these things to any real extent, or to the same extent that Rush Limbaugh does. Paul Holmes for example has made a career of socialism, he’s networked with socialists all his career, and he only went bad when he fell out with those socialists over money. When Brash was selling his tax cuts proposal, most of these people merely repeated the pathetic cry of the left.. “what cuts will be made in government spending?”. when the left raised an issue, any issue, these people rushed to repeat it with feverish unconsidered haste. (as Emmess above agrees) For example, they propogated the completely unfounded smear that Brash had lied.
Give me a break. These people are not true Conservatives, and the dearth of Conservative commentary in NZ’s mainstream media allows the left to shephard NZ’s culture further and further left, and mould public opinion in line with leftist concerns. Its a curse on the democratic process, but that’s the way the left have planned it.
Vote:October 3rd, 2005 at 12:31 pm
RedBaiter – hahahahahahaha you are so dumb. It was a joke man. God, you crack me up. You’re so paranoid and out of touch with reality. I bet you don’t have a girlfriend, voted for demented freaks like Libertarianz, and belive in gun ownership 4 all. Get over yourself dude before you have an embolism.
Vote:October 3rd, 2005 at 12:46 pm
Witches! All of them, witches!
Vote:October 3rd, 2005 at 1:03 pm
Hi there
Just a quick note to say the darren who posted at 11.08am is not me.
Vote:I have emailed him to suggest he changes his name.
In reply to the above darren, I will add that as a right-wing journalist (that’s me, not him), I am in a very small minority.
Practically all are left-wing, but certainly those in the IT sector are largely professional enough not to be too biased. I share RedBaiters doubts with the others as shown by TV1, TV3, etc.
Now, as for Sean Plunkett, yes, he was suspended for giving the Greens a hard time. Now, when was anyone suspended for giving a right-wing politician a hard time?
It is par for the course, even to the point of someone like Kim Hill constantly hectoring them, so the guests never get their view accross, which I suppose is the point.
October 3rd, 2005 at 1:09 pm
You all still don’t get it. Redbaiter is a leftie. This is an amusing scam.
Vote:October 3rd, 2005 at 1:18 pm
So the lies and deceit over the student loans bribe were all a figment of the imagination Russell Brown et al And the “no money for tax cuts” lie Trouble is you Lefties have your eyes and ears painted on when it comes to viewing your beloved heavenly divine leader and her unethical and immoral mates.None of them can lie straight in bed and they wont lie straight in their coffins.Its going to be delicious to watch the PM crawling to stitch together the worst rag tag butch of pollies ever And then to watch it all fall apart
Vote:October 3rd, 2005 at 1:34 pm
Tan, I think that was quite obvious from the outset, had something to do with how pathetic his, hers, IT”S argument was. We have had Frau Clark in the Bee hive for 6 years, another few months won’t be to much of a problem.
Vote:October 3rd, 2005 at 1:37 pm
I think you’ll find that Sean Plunkett was suspended (for a whole day!) for throwing things at his boss during a fight.
Vote:October 3rd, 2005 at 1:43 pm
And calling him a “stupid fucking cunt”.
*pregnant pause*
“Allegedly”.
Vote:October 3rd, 2005 at 1:45 pm
Hi Darren – due to the lack of registration facilities, i was able to enter my name, when it looks like it was your name. silly me. Sorry about that.
Anyway, i think we need to just let the righties be…they lost. Not by much, but hey, coming second is just another name for the first loser.
But, a very, VERY, small part of me actually wanted Brash in. Only then would we see the true agenda. It would draw so much blood and pain, that they would only be a one term govt.
Kids only know not to touch the element after they’ve been burnt.
Vote:October 3rd, 2005 at 2:08 pm
Vast Left Wing Conspiracy versus Vast Right Wing Conspiracy…
Fight!
Vote:October 3rd, 2005 at 2:09 pm
“Red Baiter…You are right on the mark and in the process have written quite the best blog I have read.”
Thank your lucky stars you don’t have a univesrity education then : )
Vote:October 3rd, 2005 at 2:40 pm
Yes its me Darren, you will get your wish sooner than you think, and what do you mean with blood and pain? Intrigued.
Vote:October 3rd, 2005 at 3:22 pm
I agree with Tan. Redbaiter is acting the goat to discredit the right and this forum. He’s doing a good job, frothing like a good right attack dog.
But it doesn’t wash. The fact that he offers no argumentation at all and just opinionated assertions makes me think he’s not actually up with what the right would usually use to justify their positions.
Therefore he is a counteragent of the left, planted by Paul Holmes, from whom he gets his sense of humour and structure.
As for this whole sorry sore loser thread, you’re going to have to get over living in a democracy guys. It’s tough but it seems that NZ has elected to have a softened left of centre govt again. I guess they’re just not outraged enough at the way other people live their lives.
You can take heart that it’s a minority coalition on the way, which will not be able to enact much progressive legislation. The legislation that gets through will have to be friendly to: the poor, the environment, the maori, the united-except-we-hate-progressives future camp (whereever the hell that stands), and not be too offensive to the xenophobes. That pretty much sums up middle NZ.
I take heart that the economy will not be smashed to hell by the dreamer coalition. All in all it’s a compromise government which is what democracy is all about.
Cheers
Vote:October 3rd, 2005 at 3:32 pm
Wow Woppo, you went to university obviously, and that would be why you can’t spell the word. I’ll bet you know all about ecosystems tho.
Readers should note the personal attacks and vilification, and recognise the left’s usual strategies, wherein they try hard to marginalise anyone who challenges their social ascendancy.
NZ must be freed from leftist totalitarianism and the way to achieve this is to break the hold the left have on NZ’s culture. The first step down that long path is to tear down the walls they (the left) have built around ideas and opinion.
Vote:October 3rd, 2005 at 3:42 pm
To me, the election campaign, especially in the last few weeks, just seemed like one long Brash bash. It was as if Klark started of each day with a round of phone calls to her media acolytes saying. “OK troops, today, we’re going to get him on this issue.. get out there and attack”… and they did as their leader bid them..
Vote:October 3rd, 2005 at 4:59 pm
Wow, hilarious conversation. I was just thinking…if the lefties are everywhere: in the media, in the universities, in the government, under our beds…then maybe they are the *mainstream*. They got more votes than the other guys. You should give up and join them, you might enjoy it – maybe be less angry
Vote:October 3rd, 2005 at 5:04 pm
“To me, the election campaign, especially in the last few weeks, just seemed like one long Brash bash”
Vote:I agree he was such an easy target.
PLease please please keep him on as leader……..
October 3rd, 2005 at 5:58 pm
Red, you’re having a bit of a laugh. We all know it. Does it console you for your loss? Perhaps you might want to exile yourself before you end up in the gulag of a day job – I suggest the US, it might fit your sentiments, although you may find yourself unwelcome there as a foreigner, because of the very policies that you so love. I hear the south has great weather.
Vote:October 4th, 2005 at 6:49 am
Don’t feed the Troll
J.
Vote:October 4th, 2005 at 8:00 am
Red Masterbator why don’t you go and live in Taiwan.They have a perfect regime for someone like you.It is a proper laissez faire jobbie,much like Charles Dickens London of the time.Life is/was glorious for the sick ,injured frail ,old and poor.You would love life in Taiwan,you could really put the boot into all of the aforementioned and have a ball. Of course they have a fucked environment but that is only asmall price to pay.It does appear that some of their lefty scum are escaping to live in NZ,crikey that strikes me as a fair swap, a dickhead plonker like you and your fellow verminous ilk for some hard working Chinese who do appreciate what life has to offer under Saint Helen’s benevolent regime.These Chinese and Asians do seem to like what they see here and do seem to want to live here,or am I missing something?.Well off you go then,you will certainly not be missed .Of that I can assure you.
Vote:October 4th, 2005 at 8:08 am
“Wow Woppo, you went to university obviously, and that would be why you can’t spell the word.”
Of course not – well, only enough to wreck my spelling.
Not enough to render me illiterate, otherwise I wouldn’t have been able to read your post.
Look, I’ll be nice and join the dots for you – here:
“graduates from schools or universities are unable to read write or do maths”
“Where’s NZ’s Rush Limbaugh?????????????????????”
His anal cyst has been posting here of late : )
Don’t give up hope – you might be reincarnated as a toilet roll in a Pentagon washroom. Kiwi wingnut heaven!
Vote:October 4th, 2005 at 8:20 am
All such comments as the personal attacks of “Red Fred” do is underline the intolerance for diversity of political opinion that exists in a New Zealand where the left enjoys social ascendancy. The same intolerance that exists in the mainstream media.
Fred portrays the mentality that in Stalin’s time would have seen dissenters forced on to cattle trucks at bayonet point and sent off to the Siberian Gulags. Nowadays, the trick is that they attempt to send you to some cultural Gulag, a place in NZ society where nobody ever goes, because its where people who reject socialism are sent.
I stress my original point. If the right want to make any progress in restoring real democracy to NZ, then they must break down the walls that the left, including thugs like Fred, have built around ideas and opinions. Red Fred and those like him busily writing the hate pieces above, are intolerant Stalinist totalitarians and the really sad thing is that they actually do represent the mindset of those who currently enjoy political ascendancy in NZ.
Any objective person who thinks this is a beneficial state of affairs for any country needs their head read.
Vote:October 4th, 2005 at 8:36 am
Yup, NZ’s communist. That’s why we have:
1. Democracy
2. Freedom of speech
3. Capitalist economy
4. Rich people running the joint
5. No gulags
6. Not collapsed in a crying heap back to 19th century inequity
But keep it up, it’s an amusing comparison. We’re tolerant of your opinion however silly we think it is and have the right to say so. If you think a few people telling you you’re a fool on a forum is a Gulag then you don’t understand words like ‘real democracy’, ‘intolerance’, ‘totalitarianism’, ‘diversity of political opinion’.
I know you’re taking the piss though. Just hoping everyone else sees it.
Vote:October 4th, 2005 at 8:46 am
Red Masterbaiter,I did not think you could or would refute my points about living in a proper laissez faire capitalist society or that you could bring yourself to confess that a Taiwan style country/economy is a what you wing nuts have in mind for us.I am personally gutted that the left does not use the images of deprivation that this grim reaper economics creates in their campaigns ,to really put the fear of God into the voting public.I have to go to work now but rest assurred I am after you and i am going to nail you as well,metaphorically speaking.Now where did that cowardly cur Antartic Lemur get too with his explanation of the Incis and Charles Upham debacle and the National Parties part in the wasting of $200 million of taxpayers money? Huh?
Vote:October 4th, 2005 at 8:55 am
Okay Redbaiter – let’s have some examples of New Zealands ‘cutural gulags’, and the names of some of these brave socialism rejecting souls who’ve been sent there.
Vote:October 4th, 2005 at 9:31 am
Ben, you might think you have all of those things you have listed, but the reality is that the left have been working steadily away to destroy them.
They have perverted democracy by ensuring a large bulk of voters are on the government payroll, or in other ways the beneficiaries of bureaucratic largesse. This makes it impossible for any party wanting to reduce the size of government to gain votes. Like Turkey’s vote for Thanksgiving?
They have curtailed freedom of speech thru political correctness, and the means I refer to above, by metaphorically sending anybody who challenges leftist opinion to cultural gulags.
A capitalist economy you say? That’s why so many of the leading companies in NZ are state owned enterprises, where the government is the controlling shareholder. Actually a state of affairs which fits the definition of fascism.
..and yes, there are rich people running the joint. Just like in the USSR, where the communist nomenklatura enjoyed all the benefits that those who are part of the social hierarchy have always enjoyed. Wellington is on record as having the highest earners. Jim Anderton, that old red, lives in one of the most splendid Mansions in Moscow.. woops, meant Wellington.
No gulags you say? That’s where you’re most wrong. The gulags are just built in a more sophisticated manner. The events that have occurred on this page give you the best idea of how modern day gulags exist, where jack booted totalitarians strut the cultural watchtowers, and spit hate and intolerance at anybody who dares to speak or think in a way that threatens the power of their masters.
Not collapsed? Well, that’s arguable. Not collapsed financially perhaps, but certainly collapsed morally, with violence and crime and cronyism and family breakdown rampant. As for the financial collapse. Its coming. Ask the people who once lived in that big socialist success story, the Soviet Union.
Vote:October 4th, 2005 at 10:31 am
jim anderton made his money before he became a polly.
Duh. (sticks tongue in front of lower set of teeth)
Vote:October 4th, 2005 at 10:45 am
Red Masterbaiter I really love your take on the Russkies. I personally think Stalin was as bad as Hitler{ now there was a good right winger } if not worse,but crikey they fought well in WW2 and without a decent leader until Gorbachov came along.I think they have been and still are being badly led ,poor sods,but I am sure that goes for the Americans too right now.If you think Rush Limpopo is the answer,then Johnny {Dry Balls}Banks is your man and you surely are one sick puppy.
Vote:October 4th, 2005 at 10:58 am
LOL, you’re leftfield, that’s for sure.
*Democracy is perverted by having a ‘large bulk of voters’ on the ‘government payroll’? Are you talking about beneficiaries? In case you didn’t notice, they are a small minority in NZ. Most people pay tax, and enjoy the benefits of the decent society that results.
*Freedom of speech is curtailed through political correctness by sending people to cultural gulags? What the heck are you talking about? Perhaps even one example might elucidate this diatribe.
*Capitalist economy. Yes we have one. Individuals can own the means of production here, which I understand to define a capitalist system. It’s watered down, sure. But that’s because pure capitalism is like pure alcohol, poisonous. That doesn’t mean when I drink my 39% alcoholic gin that I’m an abstainer, dude.
*The communists that ran Russia were not in the league of Rupert Murdoch, man. Getting more than their fair share of vodka and girls doesn’t count as being rich around here. Any poor student can do that.
*Our moral collapse. Yes we’re not biblical Palestine anymore. Unfortunately here in NZ you can’t be literally crucified for starting a political movement. Nor will adulterers be stoned to death in the street – in fact they can rise to lead political parties. If you think our society is more violent than in the past, I’d really like to hear when that past was. As for the family breakdown, it’s not entirely clear that a family oriented society is the heaven you seem to think it is. Plenty of people I know have perfectly shitty families and always have. They can at least escape them now.
*Financial collapse to Russian depths. Yeah, right.
*Sophisticated gulags. You don’t have a clue what you are talking about. I just got back from Europe, where I got to see firsthand evidence of the excesses of fascism and communism. A good hungarian mate of mine’s grandfather was rounded up and taken to Auschwitz. He survived that horror, only to be rounded up to a gulag when he got home. You dishonour the memory of people like that by likening political correctness to what he had to endure. Your comparison is a joke, and in poor taste at that. Grow up.
C’mon, own up. You’re some pinko student jerking our chains. If you were actually from the right you’d have offered some of their arguments, rather than this ‘blue tinted spectacles’ dreaming.
Vote:October 4th, 2005 at 11:00 am
Why Labour Really Won The Election:
More people voted for them than National, and more of the minor parties dislike them less than National.
It’s that simple.
Vote:October 4th, 2005 at 11:15 am
Hey Red Eye express,
This is all very well, but let’s get to the bottom of this. You are throwing a big hissy fit becacause your favourite bandwagon Donny and the Gnats got voted off NZ Electron Idyll, and by the way it was actually a close thing. You are acting as if some commie leftist juggernaut with Helen Clarksi in the front tank steamrolled over the democratic process, by buying off the media with vodka and apartments in Lambton Quay (easily done, possibly, but the reality is that your pony lost the race.
I can’t really take your rant too seriously, as I buy into the theory that you are really just a stirrer, and are probably a Labour suppoter (aka Young Pioneer), and all power to you. That is the point really, in a democracy, political debate, whether it be of the march to Parliament, light a bonfire on the lawn and dance around like Greens at a regional love in conference, or of the “spend my morning on the Internet fishing for an argument” variety IS ACTUALLY TOLERATED in a country like ours, unlike the former Soviet Union, where dissent would mean a REAL gulag with REAL barbed wire and REAL deprivation and torture and no vodka or Pushkin poems for you.
Let’s face it, democracy aint always great, but it’s the best worst system we got. And I bet you are a Govt employee too. I am. Time to stop now, I think the cats in the grey suits with the red lapels are coming to slap me around and ask me a few hard questions about whether I felt sorry for Donnie Brashco, and thought for a mad minute about slipping him the sympathy vote.
Vote:October 4th, 2005 at 12:08 pm
Re. Redbaiters comments:
“I may not agree with what you say but will defend to death your right to say it”, Voltaire.
Nevertheless, substantially more intellectual rigor and sophistication is required to transform what appears to be a litany of ranting polemic – into a properly constructed argument that will capture the considered attention of people from both the left and the right of the political spectrum.
Vote:October 4th, 2005 at 12:41 pm
Ben, like most leftists your comprehension skills are pitiful. There are more people in receipt of government largess than mere beneficiaries for god’s sake. Are you really that blind?? The society is not decent it is a crumbling morass of immorality crime violence and cronyism. (see here for a graph showing the increase of crime, roughly in line with NZ’s swing to socialism http://www.safe-nz.org.nz/statistics.htm )
People in NZ are taxed to pay for an education system thats a joke, a health system that’s a joke, a justice system that’s a joke, a parliamentary system that’s a joke, to pay for infrastructure that’s a joke, (example roading) a defence force that’s a joke, and brainwashed low IQ mungbeans like you keep saying everything is just so great and your like believers in the media, just like they do in all such Soviet backwaters (Cuba for example) further propagate the charade that everythings all so peachy, when all we’ve really got in NZ is a sad little socialist banana republic.
..and of course the gulags that socialists have constructed today are not the same as the ones devised by Stalin for chrissake..!!!. Socialists today are too smart too cunning to employ something so obvious. That’s my very point, and if you had some small skill in comprehension you would have grasped it.
John Banks NZ’s answer to Rush Limbaugh? Good God man… Banks is an ideologically confused babbling fool.
Vote:October 4th, 2005 at 12:43 pm
perhaps mr baiter can divulge some names of people who he thinks have been, or are good wingnut leaders. At least we’ll have a benchmark, and we can go from there. some examples ? of something ?
i dont think we’ve gotten too far past pill popping rush.
Vote:October 4th, 2005 at 12:44 pm
perhaps mr baiter can divulge some names of people who he thinks have been, or are good right-w leaders. At least we’ll have a benchmark, and we can go from there. some examples ? of something ?
i dont think we’ve gotten too far past pill popping rush.
Vote:October 4th, 2005 at 1:00 pm
To Greg M- “when do you reckon this welfarism turned sour and started destroying our culture? Was it soon after it was introduced in the 1930s or did it take 70 years to start working its evil?”
My advice is to read the book “Why Your Taxes Are So High” by Patrick Caragata. Its all explained so well in there, with charts and figures and tables. You can see the explosion in welfare spending for yourself, (from the seventies onward) and witness the rise in all of NZ’s negative social statistics that roughly parallels our embracement of socialism.
Vote:October 4th, 2005 at 1:03 pm
Bad news about that graph you linked to Redbaiter – it seems to show the exact opposite of what you think it does. We see a drastic increase in crime around the time of the 84 Labour government, when New Zealand made the transition from a socialist state-controlled economy to a free market model. Crime continues to increase throughout the 90′s, as we see more deregulation, benefit cuts and sale of SOE’s, then begins to decrease about the time Labour gets into power.
I mean, did you even look at the graph?
BTW, I’m still waiting for some specifics on these gulags the country is riddled with.
Vote:October 4th, 2005 at 1:10 pm
I have never inferred that Rush Limbaugh is a “great leader”. I have merely remarked that the lack of a similar proponent of conservative views in the NZ media is proof that the left have such an iron clad grip on NZ’s culture, and are using it to slowly strangle freedom of political expression.
BTW, I confused the book title. Its “Why Are Your Taxes So High?”
Vote:October 4th, 2005 at 1:52 pm
we have no Rush because…(sigh)…as we’ve just seen, NZ is largely happy with a left/centre left government. So such a proponent wouldn’t be too popular.
No freedom of political expression ? sheeshh…i live in the same town as the ex leader of the Libz’s. He’s still just as wacky. But he got 4000 votes when he stood for the mayoralty for farks sake !
and those Sensible Sentencing stats (they have good intentions for sure), can we get some comment on that. I mean, it was used to make a point, but as we’ve just seen, the right 90′s was when the stats went to town.
The other downside of those 90′s, which is the most distressing, is that NZ’s youth suicide rate rose to be the highest in the world. When Unicef published the figures, Shipley only response was that she thought they were inaccurate. Disgusting.
“Another step towards reducing NZ to the kind of hollow shell that all socialist states become, a country with its heart torn out by welfarism and its off-shoots..”
I can’t think of many things more empty and shallow than a country who’s young people think that their future is so empty, that they take their own life.
That is what we had. It is not what we have now. It is not what the people want. The recent results have shown that.
Vote:October 4th, 2005 at 1:59 pm
Yes I looked at the graph, and only a moron would expect a massive instantaneous explosion of crime at a particular instant. The increase is gradual, and it starts in the mid to late sixties, early seventies, and continues growing. What is it about socialism that encourages the growth of violent crime and drug taking? Despair I suggest. Of course your inference that free market policies lead to an increase in violent crime is doubly ridiculous, and one only has to look at stats that show Denmark, Australia, Finland, Canada, Norway, the UK, the US and New Zealand, all socialist countries with their economies underpinned by high taxation and massive government expenditure, near the top of the international crime tables to see that. ( http://www.safe-nz.org.nz/Interstats/burglary.htm and other pages by category) ..and your inability to get the point on gulags is completely tiresome.
The country that has shown no increase in crime is Singapore, and that is because it is a country that has rejected socialism. (now we’ll have to read a load of off topic smears of Singapore that will totally fail to address the real point- ie that by whatever means, Singapore is not a socialist country, and has not suffered the crime wave that countries that have embraced socialism have suffered.)
Vote:October 4th, 2005 at 2:10 pm
Why are taxes so high ?.. There is only one answer for that… Incompetent Politicans & Bureaucrats.
Vote:Gulags…Well NZ was an economic Gulag “The Polish Ship yard” was the common term, and the currency the KIWI rouble, which had no value in an other country. Pre early 1980′s The “Enconomic Miricale Worker” (Muldoon) as he was called by fellow National Party stooges, didn’t believe the masses should look further than the shores of NZ! With their govt propergander units, State owned TV, Radio, Brainwashing the peasants with the evils of the outside world! And the thought of leaving NZ, Traitor! One was only allowed an allowance of $NZ 500.00 and a suitcase, to take out of the country. Any more was a criminal offence. That made sure they didn’t travel to far.
Yes, I can hear many old “Nats” saying those were the good old days when New Zealanders new their place.
October 4th, 2005 at 11:47 pm
Redbaiter, your bait is going stale at about the time you think abusing the fish brings them in droves. Calling people morons, blind, with no comprehension skills because they can’t follow the tenuous threads of an argument that so far is only in your head rather than on our screens, is flipping you out of your Purple Pimpernel of the Raving Right uniform into it’s true Scarlet. Squeeze it any harder and it will fall off, my friend. It sure won’t make it bigger!
As dim so simply points out, your graph shows the opposite of what you claim, so you’re working for Helen, it’s clear. You’re trying hard to show the failure of the whole cut-tax-and-services experiment.
We’re onto you, you big goofy pisstaker. No one really thinks that NZ sucks that bad and still lives here. Why would they bother unless they were a glutton for self imposed misery?
Unless you think it’s a global phenomenon. There are hints of that in your calling the UK and the US exemplars of your ‘creeping socialism’ phenomenon. Naturally Reagan, Bushes and Thatcher were the biggest socialists out, I can honestly see Ronnie tucked up in bed next to the nuke button reading Das Kapital.
Do you honestly in all truthfulness believe any government statistics that come out of Singapore? Are you the kind of guy that thinks complete lack of scrutiny and a climate of political fear promotes hard-truth telling? Singapore routinely imprisons anyone that criticizes the government, indefinitely and without trial. Interestingly, that in itself isn’t a crime there, although it would be considered one of the MOST HEINOUS here in NZ.
Our justice system is a joke huh? You might possibly be aware that Singapore also pulled out of the Privy council, because they found in favour of a defendant who was imprisoned by the government for sedition. His sedition was, as an elected member of parliament, to criticize the government publicly. Our democracy is a sham, eh?
If you really want a neofascist state like Singapore, why don’t you start your movement? To follow in Lee’s footsteps all you have to do is violently suppress all opposition to your views. Then with a lot of luck and cunning you might be able to perform a similar economic miracle. Or you might manage to find the only way to earn the death penalty here.
If you’re cretinous enough now to be thinking of saying that all these criticisms of Singapore are ‘off topic’, I preempt that. They are right on topic. Your prime example of a successful capitalist country is extremely instructive about your views on rights, freedoms and democracy generally. You are contemptuous of them as pinko twaddle.
But the real twaddle is coming out of your fingertips, when they can be unleashed from their primary object of concern. You crap on about gulags like you actually know what the word means, just like you crapped on about a graph you didn’t even read. Where/what is this gulag you are talking about here? Are you talking about a day job? It’s not really in the same category as being forced to work in a Siberian mine for the rest of your now shortened natural life, and I urge you to put this to the test if you don’t believe me.
All of this crime stuff came up as your rebuttal that society is more decent under a welfare state. You decided that crime was your big measure. Personally I don’t buy that – crime is only one measure. Homelessness or child poverty, or general health are examples of other important stats. And tying them statistically to any political system is subject to ridiculous inaccuracy. You yourself proposed one such example, namely the lag between political cause and effect. It was a desperate saving hypothesis against the correlation dim shows in the data you pointed us to.
Vote:October 5th, 2005 at 1:40 am
*thoroughly amused* Redbaiter, I don’t care if you’re a secret lefty or a… really kind of bizarre, not to mention extremist, right-winger. Because either way, Godwin’s Law(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law) applies, and you lost way back when you first brought up gulags. That’s just lazy argument, man.
Vote:October 5th, 2005 at 7:29 am
You might want to try visiting Singapore when you’re old enough, Redbaiter. It’s the ultimate Nanny-state – often described as a cross between East-Germany and Disneyland. They fine you for spitting.
Birdhead – I thought Godwins law only applied to Hitler?
Vote:October 5th, 2005 at 8:09 am
Redbaiter has certainly lived up to his name by getting 40 responses to his posts from you lot, if he is so wrong and misguided why are you all wasting your time replying?
Vote:October 5th, 2005 at 8:45 am
As I expected, any mention of Singapore sends leftists into a foaming frenzy. Look, the issue is this. Let’s for the sake of the argument accept all of your leftist fantasies regarding Singapore and look at the bottom line. That is, Singapore has been in broad terms a mirror image of the countries that embraced socialism. Where those countries have made it socially unacceptable to confront socialism, Singapore has gone in the reverse direction and made it socially unacceptable to promote socialism. As a result of that, Singapore is relatively clean, morally sound, drug free, crime free, dependency free, welfare free, has a working health and education system, a model defence force, (with real fighter planes) an average wage twice that of NZers, and an overall higher standard of living.
NZ still in pursuit of the delusional socialist utopia, has low standards of living, high crime, drugs, welfarism, dependency syndrome, can’t afford a defence force, health care and education and justice are the absolute pits. The difference is so stark. The destruction wrought by socialists and socialism is so evident, and yet still they refuse to accept the outcomes of their blind brainwashed obeisance to a discredited doctrine, and continue to try and ridicule anybody who dares speak out against it. (Notice during the election campaign, Brash never said one word against the concept of socialism?) Electorally unpopular you see. Well, guess what commies. Redbaiter is here, and he says socialism is a country destroying farce, a con, and evil boa constrictor that strangles countries one by one, robs them of rational and intelligent thought, self expression, independence and so many other things, and you can call me crazy or any damn thing you like, but take this to the bank commies, I will continue to speak out against socialists and their deceit, and you’ll never shame me with your pathetic hollow attacks that are so obviously a sign of your own insecurities.
Fair Go should do an episode on Socialism. As a scam, its one of the most successful ever. (Trouble is, they’re part of it)
Vote:October 5th, 2005 at 9:11 am
Observer, point taken. I was away in Europe for a few weeks so had to get a bit of posting out of my system to remind myself how futile it is. Red was the nearest easy target for ridicule. But you’re right it’s really doing his foolishness a lot more justice than it deserves.
You’ll note he doesn’t address one iota of my criticism of Singapore, because it’s on the money and damned obvious to boot. Europe’s only endured millenia of flipflopping between good and bad monarchs to know the system sucks arse, and no modern totalitarian state analysed over any reasonable period of time leads us to want to give up our freedoms for Singapore’s fairly average level of prosperity. For example, I’m sure most young New Zealanders would not want to give up several years of their lives to universal conscription as they are required to do in Singapore, to provide the ‘model defence force’ that we really don’t need. Nor would most workers think it was OK to do a jail term because their working conditions were unfair and they spoke out about it.
Vote:October 5th, 2005 at 12:06 pm
Just come across this site. It seems so familiar: a bunch of leftists attacking Redbaiter–without any logical success I would add. When logic and truth comes into an argument and I see the typical socialist left reaction, it always reminds me of an old saying: Throw a stone into a pack of dogs and the one who gets hit is the one who yelps!
Keep it up Red, you’re doing your usual great job of handling the arrogant left.
Vote:October 5th, 2005 at 12:41 pm
Les, I curious to know what satisfaction you think someone like redbaiter gets from these kinds of discussions. It’s obvious that he knows very little, he writes poorly, his arguments are loose and unfocused… yeah he gets a reaction, and possibly some of us who respond should leave it…
Perhaps it’s the only think he can do; unable to thing through issues, unable to adopt a position and defend it without indulging in ad hominem attacks, and unable to respectfully disagree… yeah, make sense: a blog incendiary device.
As this the best the apparent right have? Really? Nah, can’t be.
As to the arrogant left: it’s the standard response of someone that resents that fact that others have knowledge.
Vote:October 5th, 2005 at 12:53 pm
Aw, c’mon lads, it’s all a bit of fun. Don’t forget we’re baiting Red as much as he’s baiting us. If he bites it shows what kind of dog he is. Similarly with loonie lefties like me. I’m unfortunately a pitbull. Not very fast, which a jaw that locks in when fighting. Means I kill, no matter what the damage to me. But it looks like he’s dead now, jaws are unlocking. Time to get back to my bones.
Vote:October 5th, 2005 at 12:59 pm
Ben Wilson: well said – it’s not like I don’t enjoy this forum, DPF is done us all a favour, although I’d welcome some more challenging discussions…
Vote:October 5th, 2005 at 1:30 pm
My 2c worth. Redbaiter I’m with you man!! I’m going to set up my own gulag and put all those people who voted for anyone other than Libertarianz there as soon as I can stage a coup and install myself as lord and master of the Peoples Chicago School State of NZ, with Roger Kerr as my left hand man. I will abolish dissent, leftism, and anyone else that disagrees with me. Women will be kept at home to service their men, children will work in salt mines, and all men of reproductive age will be conscripted into my army. There will be no minimum wage, environment standards, or public services of any description except police and armed services.
Oh and I forgot to mention, I’m a demented right wing nut case who cannot have relationships with other humans, has no compassion, no sense of humour, a paranoid distorted view of reality, and bad personal hygiene.
Hey redBaiter, my real lefto chums are coming for you man….we’re gonna get you soon…better run Nazi, the thought police are after you…………
Vote:October 5th, 2005 at 1:42 pm
Sorry, just had to invoke Godwin’s law as it was mentioned earlier.
But seriously, as a Psychologist, I do think many of you right wingers have some degree of personality disorder. This takes the form of reality distortion that may be linked to your general lack of empathy and inability to form adequate relationships with others.
Vote:October 5th, 2005 at 1:51 pm
For those readers who dispute my claim that leftists use social gulags to try and enforce conformance with socialist ideology, just have a read of the threads directly above, where you can see perfect examples of the kind of behaviour I am referring to.
Vote:October 5th, 2005 at 1:57 pm
As a reader, I dispute your claim that this forum is a gulag.
Vote:October 5th, 2005 at 2:02 pm
…but somehow I feel chained to it, typing endlessly about meaningless drivel. Perhap’s there’s a point in there somewhere – even a stopped watch is right twice a day, unless it’s digital.
Vote:October 5th, 2005 at 2:11 pm
Hey RedBaiter, you’re sooo lucky the Greens don’t have a majority, or Nazi scum like you would be rounded up into camps and rendered down into BioDiesel. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!!
Vote:October 5th, 2005 at 2:24 pm
baitTheRed.. said “I’m going to set up my own gulag and put all those people who voted for anyone other than Libertarianz”
Stop there mate. Libertarianz would like nothing to do with people like you. Back off and go back to your beloved North Korea.
Vote:October 5th, 2005 at 2:32 pm
Manolo – you have no clue dude. We Lib’s are all for enforcing a fascistic state founded on the glorious Chicago School principle of screw you what about me.
Vote:October 5th, 2005 at 3:08 pm
Red-Baiter, do you ever log off this site and go to work? I’m beginning to suspect you of bludgery. (That’s a heck of a lot better than most of the other things I suspect you of.)
Is it just possible, do you think, that other people who are equally as intelligent and informed as you just might disagree with you and hold different political values? No, I’m sure it’s more likely that we have all been brainwashed by the leftist state (all achieved in just six years: how do they manage it?).
Vote:October 5th, 2005 at 3:18 pm
Haha, work smhirk. It’s obvious, the left state puts things in our water. That’s why Act only got 2 seats and the Libs disappeared down the gurgler.
As for intelligence, my brain is the size of a planet and I can multitask thinking of other things while I type this drivel to keep you and me entertained.
Vote:October 5th, 2005 at 3:59 pm
“baitTheRedFucker” is a self-assigned tag that corresponds perfectly with the tone of the drivel over it. It appears all that can emerge from that name is abusiveness and no possibility of a sensible or able argument.
If you want to argue with Redbaiter, why not try and demonstrate at least some knowledge and ability. Your abusiveness is a demonstration of your own defeat.
Vote:October 5th, 2005 at 4:23 pm
The abuse is quite useful really. Notice how the few socialists posting here with a modicum of sense have withdrawn in embarrassed silence as the proof of my “gulag” thesis is made more obvious with every post these knuckle draggers make.?
Its quite funny really. One can’t help thinking of those little black ants in Australia. When you disturb their nest, they come racing out madly in blind panic and concern. Just like socialists when you say something disparaging about their ideology. ..and they’re about as predictable as the ants too, for as those little insects race around in confused circles, the socialists follow the same circular pattern. Its always, “can’t construct and argument”, even tho they themselves don’t even try to present any argument, let alone a “constructed” one.. or “doesn’t know anything”, even when (for just one example) their proclamations on the state of Singapore are such embarrassing indicators of their own desperate ignorance, .. or the old standby, “he’s mad or he’s got no friends”, or “I’m a psychiatrist and I proclaim him to be psychologically disturbed”, all weak unsubstantiated allegations which they make at the same time as they so hypocritically accuse me of ad hominens . Jack booted socialist totalitarians, bent on restricting political discussion in New Zealand to subjects they approve of, and savagely attacking anyone who defies their edicts. C’mon NZ people, lets stand up to these silly little tyrants and thugs. You know their emperor has no clothes, and even tho they’ll never admit it, deep down, they know it too.
Vote:October 5th, 2005 at 8:54 pm
I’d say that’s a pretty good assessment, Red. Haha! Little black ants, indeed!
Vote:October 6th, 2005 at 12:01 am
Heh, embarrassed silence… I think the serious posters buggered off to do whatever it is they do, making serious posts or work or something. I’m more happy being the gulag guard rattling the beast’s cage. How he roars. I wonder if I can find a way to use my truncheon over IP? It’s just not the same as the real thing, but life can’t always be like it was at gulag school. We have to make do with emotional torture, pushing psychological sore spots etc. Given enough time and someone crazy enough to put up with it, we can break anyone.
The first thing to crumble is their argument. It was always suspect, but it disappears altogether after a few prods. After that the blanket assertions begin to multiply, bouncing off a shield of requests for evidence or proof, or even definitions. The coup de grace begins when the subject begins to use nasty words and names, at which point a free for all ensues, anyone game enough to give their best shot to the subject climbs on. Then we all fall back exhausted, as he mutters ‘you cheap &$&%$#s’. We can only smile and say he brought it on himself. But he likes it, cause emotional bruises aren’t really the same thing and toiling for the emperor who I’m desperately trying not to imagine with no clothes is really not quite the same as the coal mine or the showers.
I think I’ve finally worked out Red’s position. He’s just someone infected with a fairly common case of word inflation. It begins when people swear too much. They begin to run out of superlatives and they start to have to swear more and more to make the same impact. Eventually their swearing is worth next to nothing and they have to just keep printing more and more of it. Finally no one wants anything they say anymore because it’s worth nothing at all, or you have to put up with so much of it to get anything.
If you really translate what it would have said when his language currency was worth something, what RedBaiter is saying is not that extreme. Merely substitute ‘very slightly to the left of centre’ for ‘socialist’, ‘immoral’ for ‘i don’t like it’, ‘foaming frenzy’ for ‘disagreed slightly’, ‘Jack booted socialist totalitarians’ for ‘mainstream’, and so on. You get the idea. Just drag all the superlatives and hyperbole a couple of standard deviations closer to the mean, and you’ve got his real opinion back when people would have given him a fair hearing.
Which means you can translate his whole case by saying ‘I think NZ is wrong to have moved very slightly to the left over the last few years, because in Singapore they are more to the right and they make more money. If we had more money we’d be better off, so let’s do everything Singapore does. It is a dysfunctional system that has led us this way’.
To which the moderate response would be ‘I think RedBaiter is wrong because we don’t approve of the form of government that created Singapore’s current wealth, nor can we be certain we would get wealthier even if we did follow that path, nor do we even accept that Singapore’s economic policy is especially to the right of NZ’s, and there are plenty of models of economic success out there besides Singapore which are more palatable to our culture, some of which are, indeed, even further “left” than we are’.
Vote:October 6th, 2005 at 1:22 am
That was the best post I have ever read
Vote:October 6th, 2005 at 7:45 am
“Jack booted socialist totalitarians, bent on restricting political discussion in New Zealand to subjects they approve of, and savagely attacking anyone who defies their edicts”
to provide counter arguments or to ask for more information or examples is not a “savage attack”, nor does that make the left “Jack booted socialist totalitarians”. If that how you feel when someone disagrees with you, then i think you need to harden up.
And personally, i haven’t replied cos i’m not sure what to reply to, the points put forward are so disjointed, and well, all over the place . Sinagapore is held up as the example, but there is a forced citizens saving scheme there. And savings are matched by the government. Sounds pretty socialist to me. And the government subsidised house purchasing…it just goes on and on….
Vote:October 6th, 2005 at 9:02 am
I guess having poor reading skills and abysmal comprehension is what makes it so easy to believe the myths of socialism. I’m sorry, but its just far too tiresome attempting to discuss issues with retards who apparently only comprehend about 10% of what they read. In the first place, your comments on Singapore prove you have the intellectual depth of cellophane. Secondly, you have written more phony analysis of Redbaiter here than you have on any issue. As I have previously stated, the strategy socialists always use against anyone who challenges their ideology is one of attempted personal destruction, and you have been so true to form.
You guys are just predictable leftist robots, boring, unimaginitive, hypocritical, superficial and intellectually unchallenging, and with every empty pathetic sentence you write here, you show that the damage done to this country by socialism is probably terminal. I will continue to hope it is not.
Vote:October 6th, 2005 at 9:21 am
No fresh material? I’m disappointed. Surely you’ve got more steam than that.
Vote:October 6th, 2005 at 9:32 am
i think that there is something wrong with the submission code running on baiters browser – his replies must be from posts on other websites, as the last few don’t seem to relate to the ones here.
meanwhile, back to work, in my happy life, with my happy family and my happy, educated, healthy kids
Vote:October 6th, 2005 at 9:37 am
No, it’s a baitbot, with the hyperbole settings too high. Just needs to be tweaked a bit and it could be bluebaiting on Frogblog.
Vote:October 6th, 2005 at 9:40 am
Redbaiter – talking about yourself in the third-person? Does this spell the end?
Vote:October 6th, 2005 at 11:09 am
“the strategy socialists always use against anyone who challenges their ideology is one of attempted personal destruction, and you have been so true to form”
hmm…mighty powerful this internet web thingy. apparently you can destroy someone via a web forum ! does that mean you can massacre them via MSN messenger ? does that make a spammer a serial killer ?
Vote:October 6th, 2005 at 11:19 am
Left wingers, tree-huggers and do-gooders of the world, unite!
Not one of you have been able to refute RedBaiter’s arguments.
Besides the personal attacks none of your reported analysis on Singapore holds any validity whatsoever. Are you’re the result of the crooked NZ education system or what?
Vote:October 6th, 2005 at 11:29 am
The one thing so many people never seem to understand – there is no “correct” place in the political spectrum. Politics is not necessarily about what is “right” but more the core beliefs. It’s very hard to get one side to accept the other because it’s not a matter of reason as such, it’s a matter of what the person thinks is reasonable. One side thinks redistribution of wealth is moral, one thinks it isn’t (or only on a lesser scale). Neither is necessarily “right”, economic and social indicators may be affected (Hong Kong and Denmark), but it’s a case of where your values lie. Insulting those with different opinions is not going to change them at all, it’ll probably strengthen their resolve.
Vote:October 6th, 2005 at 11:30 am
It’s very hard to refute an argument you haven’t seen. Did you want to make an actual refutation of some of the Singapore points, or are you in ‘rhetoric mode’? Perhaps a summary of the ‘case for becoming Singapore’ is in order. Then the ‘case against’ might not be operating in a vacuum.
Vote:October 6th, 2005 at 12:11 pm
you got it nichlemn…
i don’t have a problem with my taxes going to pay for doctors visit for my neighbours kids, or to pay some doc worker to trap stoats on an outlying island near invercargill that i will never visit, or to pay for a band that i don’t like to make a video. I think they are all worthwhile things. Just my opinion
Sure, the current system could do with some tweaking, but hey, overall…. monday tuesday happy days, thursday friday happy days…
Vote:October 6th, 2005 at 12:58 pm
Agreed, it’s just simple practicality. Some burdens are shared. And some entertainments should be too, in proportion to how widely enjoyed they are. Otherwise we’d be a cultural wasteland with no roads. The market can create art and infrastructure, but it can also destroy it. The trick is to find the balance.
Vote:October 6th, 2005 at 2:29 pm
Hey Manolo, RedBaiter doesn’t have arguments, he only uses invective. It’s hard to refute ‘your side is bad cause I say so’. Anyway, us leftie commie pinko traitor scum just want to tweak his paranoia to induce full blown psychosis so we can laugh some more at his infantile adolescent postings
Vote:October 8th, 2005 at 7:01 pm
Bitterness, he finally dried up and blew away. I was having such fun. Now I’m going to have to get back to work, damn it.
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