Hamas
January 27th, 2006 at 9:21 am by David FarrarThe election of a majority Hamas Government by the Palestinians provides remarkable, but regrettable, clarity.
Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Israel. It does not want a return to the UN borders, it wants to wipe Israel out. So lets have no more moral equivalence between the Palestinians and Israel. Israel has been unilaterally withdrawing from territory, while the Palestians have elected an administration whose goal is destroying Israel, and practises what it preaches on a regular basis.
No Right Turn has simplistically portrayed Israel’s react as a choice between respecting the results of the election or vetoing it with tanks and guns.
Israel should not of course ‘veto’ the results. But it has a vital duty to protect its citizens. So until there is a Palestinian Government that is not trying to kill every last Jew in Israel, Israel needs to close the borders. Double the height of the wall, stop all co-operation, stop all financial assistance and do not give back one further square centimetre of land.
It is now very clear that even if Israel tomorrow gave back all the occupied territories, they would remain under attack. The more territory they give back the more of their citizens and houses which would be open to attack.
Related posts:
- Dom Post says Hamas can end strikes
- Hamas nuking Israel
- National calls for halt to Hamas aid
- Upside of Hamas victory
January 27th, 2006 at 9:36 am
I don’t recall there being too many calls from the Left to respect Israel’s democratic process when the elected government went into Jenin.
But you’re being far too apocalyptic there DPF. I’m sure the Israeli leadership will prefer dealing with an enemy that can deliver to a friend that can’t.
No doubt there are those in Hamas who will continue to want the destruction of Israel but the realities of government and the incentive of keeping foreign aid will have a sobering effect.
Vote:January 27th, 2006 at 9:41 am
We might be surprised. It might work out well in the end. If history is anything to consider, Hamas may actually be in a better position to improve the relationship with Israel than Fatah and the PLO ever could. Here are some historical examples:
Nixon and China. Had McGovern been president in 1968, he would never have been able to seek recognition of China wihtout being painted as soft on communism. When Nixon did it, it looked like a masterstroke of foreign policy success. Similarly, Ariel Sharon was considered to be the nastiest of all the Israeli generals by the Palestinians. Yet he is the one who gave up land and removed Israelis from settlements. No one in Israel’s Labour Party could ever have done that without causing the collapse of the government.
I just wonder whether a solution (apartheid-like thought it might be in creating a partition between two ethnic groups) might be better achieved by those who do not need to ever fear being painted soft on the Israelis.
One thing is interesting to note, and it’s this: the way in which Fatah have accepted the result and conceded defeat to Hamas. This suggests that the Palestinians may actually be embracing a democratic culture if the incumbent historical power is accepting of their defeat.
Vote:January 27th, 2006 at 9:52 am
I seem to remeber that the Jewish Stern gang wanted to kill all Arabs, there’s pretty unpleasent folk on both sides of the wall.
Vote:Some commentators are saying that the election shows what the Palestinians would like is a place to call their own with jobs, health systems etc. Hamas has run a far better welfare system something that Fatah was unable to do as it was far too corrupt. Maybe a governable state will be less likely to want the destruction of Israel as people will be busier working.
January 27th, 2006 at 9:55 am
Are there parallels with Sinn Fein here. Will Hamas follow their course to reach the point Northan Ireland is now? Its going to be interesting whether we see Iran like abuse or a softening and moving forward.
Vote:January 27th, 2006 at 9:59 am
Yeti – please stop inventing things and stating them as facts.
Vote:January 27th, 2006 at 10:03 am
Interesting comments on the problems with polling in the Palestinian electoral system, which help explain why the result was a surprise to most.
http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=511
Vote:January 27th, 2006 at 10:12 am
Remember the O’Herald doctrine DPF – must respect fairly free election results.
I think Israel needs to continue to hold out the peace offering on the tiny chance that the Hamas government wants peace as opposed to the rest of Hamas who wants to kill every Jew.
The Palestinians would do well to remember that they can now no longer hide behind that thin excuse of deniability – with a Hamas government there can be little doubt that terrorist attacks in Israel are ordered by the Palestinian government.
One can only imagine that the Israeli response will make the past few years look like a teddy bear’s picnic.
Vote:January 27th, 2006 at 10:19 am
DPF: Hamas removed its calls for the destruction of Israel from its political aims a few years ago. It’s rebirth since being the target of assinations had much more of a social-Islamic aspect. That said, the future’s unwritten…
but what part of Yeti’s post was pure fabrication?
Vote:January 27th, 2006 at 10:28 am
MCMC, Hamas in it’s founding charter still calls for the destruction of Israel. This has been reiterated by Hamas representatives almost on a daily basis.
But they have moderated their view in that they say they will abide by some sort of extended ceasefire if Israel returns to the 1967 borders.
Vote:January 27th, 2006 at 10:33 am
Ah, reminds of that old Dylan song: Neighbourhood Bully (http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/bully.html).
Israel can never win…they’re dealing with people who think Hitler was doing the world a favour.
Vote:January 27th, 2006 at 10:34 am
I think that Hammas will have the same problem many other elected governments have – keeping the promises made (explicit or implicit) to their electorate. If there is no wiping out of Israel in the next Palestinian parliamentary term they may get tarnished with a “do nothing” tag.
Vote:January 27th, 2006 at 10:53 am
DPF: I agree that Israel has a duty to protect its citizens. However, I don’t think that duty extends to overthrowing hostile government. Self-defence is morally justifiable, self-_offence_ is not.
At the moment, there seems to be some panic about the prospect of a Hamas government. I’m hoping that it won’t cause the Israelis to do anything stupid. Neil and Aaron are right; the realities of government are likely to have a sobering effect on Hamas, and it may perversely be easier for them to reach a settlement with Israel than for Fatah.
Vote:January 27th, 2006 at 11:05 am
Hamas has to be dealt with as a fact of life. There has not been any serious criticism of this election. The old PLO was a corrupt ineffective organisation but Humas did quite a lot of social work on the ground. I guess there will now be some sort of stand off. But curiously this might mean that Likud with its no deal hardline leader will now win that election. In the meantime until Humas can be negotiated with nothing is going to happen except more violence. I guess Gaza will now be flattened with a lot of lives lost.
Vote:January 27th, 2006 at 11:18 am
DPF that is the most abjectly fatuous analysis of the Palestinian election results I’ve read so far. The only thing that is very clear from this election is that the Palestinian electorate are sick of the corruption and cronyism that has been so pervasive of the PA under Fatah.
And Yeti isn’t making stuff up, Hamas isn’t popular with the Palestinian people because of suicide bombings, they’re popular because they run effective social services that allow them to portray themselves as an organisation that will fight perceived Israeli oppression and take care of people at the same time. You can question their motives in this regard, but it’s a powerful message that has obviously reaped rewards.
Get over your histrionics, there is as much cause for hope as there is for pessimism in the early aftermath of this electoral result.
Vote:January 27th, 2006 at 11:48 am
1. Now you know how the Palestinians must have felt when the Israelis elected Sharon.
2. Hamas has about as much chance of ‘wiping Israel of the map’ as the homeless guys in Cuba St have of seizing control of New Zealand.
3. This could work out rather well for Israel. Once Hamas are beholden to the west for things like aid money they may be somewhat more reluctant to order suicide bombers into nightclubs filled with teenagers.
Vote:January 27th, 2006 at 11:57 am
Wonderful to see Bush’s dream of greater democracy in the Middle East being realised.
Vote:January 27th, 2006 at 12:00 pm
Oh dear Marple has so much wrong.
I agree there are many factors in the vote for Hamas. Yet Hamas refuse point blank to retreat from their position of wanting Israel wiped out and are committed to ongoing terrorist attacks.
And you miss what I was criticisng with Yeti. It was the statement that the Stern Gang wanted to exterminate all Palestinians.
Vote:January 27th, 2006 at 12:27 pm
Fair enough on the Yeti front, but that was not at all clear from your comment.
Vote:With regard to what Hamas represents as an aspiration on the part of the Palestinian electorate, you again seem to be implying that the most important factor is their position with regard to Israel.
While that certainly plays a part, Hamas themselves campaigned on an end to the corruption and nepotism in the Fatah Palestinian Authority. They are now crowing about bureaucratic positions being available to people outside of Fatah. I just don’t think any of the evidence indicates that the vote for Hamas was a vote intended to diminish the safety of Israelis as you are suggesting. Nor do I think that you could yet claim that it will have that effect, intended or not.
January 27th, 2006 at 12:38 pm
Aaron makes his second perceptive post of the last few days. I think you’re overreacting here DPF. The reality is Fatah are corrupt, incomepetent and useless. There was hope with the election of Abbas but he has turned out to be next to hopeless. Rather like Hizbullah (sp?) Hamas have a proven track record with the Palestinian people and moreover, given (as you point out) they fund and organise the suicide bombers, are the ones who’ll be able to stop them. That will require a huge effort and an attitudinal change from some in the leadership, but as Aaron points out the historical parallels point to optimism rather than pessimism.
Vote:January 27th, 2006 at 12:39 pm
Hamas has funded and orchestrated attacks on Israeli soil. They are now the Government of Palestine … doesn’t this mean that Israel could legally declare war on Palestine itself – open war, as opposed to police action?
Vote:January 27th, 2006 at 12:58 pm
“Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.”
“The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up.”
“There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”
Extracts from Hamas’s Charter…
Do you really think these are reasonable people who will want to pursue peace with Israel? Hamas’s goal is to “remove Israel from the map”…they were set up for that purpose, social welfare and corruption reduction are simply side projects to their main goal.
If you really think that now they have power they’re going to suddenly forget about why they got together in the first place? Do you really think the average Palestinian doesn’t know what Hamas wants to do?
Sure Israel has not always acted in the best manner, but it has never tried to wipe out the Palestinians…who now have elected a government who’s main creed is to do just that to Israel.
David is spot on with his thoughts on the situation.
We’re just seeing a continuation of anti-Semitism, from a. the PLO/Hamas etc, and b. those who rush to their defence.
Vote:January 27th, 2006 at 1:09 pm
I’m sure Israel’s position hasn’t changed – they will watch the Palestinians like a hawk and not hesitate to act to protect their interests and their people. All I’m saying is that there are historical precedents for the elections of hardliners to provide opportunities for some kind of rapprochement or detente given the advantages they may have for internal politicking.
Vote:January 27th, 2006 at 1:35 pm
SOMEONE’S obviously been reading Kiwiblog . . .
Vote:January 27th, 2006 at 2:37 pm
DPF, I too think you are overreacting a little. There are a lot of political organisations that have statements in their charter that are impractical and known to be so, but that stay there for extended periods as a historical artifact, largely because of the difficulty of renouncing them. Consider the UK Labour party for years continuing the directive to nationalise the means of production or whatever it was.
Having said that, Hamas clearly still have a substantial wing that not only strongly support the message in the charter, but are still actively pursuing it. So there is reason to take this more seriously than that written in charters of other parties.
I think there is a reasonable chance that the accountability forced by govt will require Hamas to either distance themselves from the actions of the minority, or to actively discourage those actions. Either path would be an improvement on the current situation.
Vote:January 27th, 2006 at 3:16 pm
And this seems relevant too PaulL:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/669006.html
“Hamas published its official platform for the upcoming Palestinian elections, which proved to be more moderate than either its 1988 charter or public statements made by its leaders throughout the ensuing years.
The document makes no mention of the principle that has been Hamas’ raison d’etre since its founding: the destruction of Israel and establishment of a Palestinian state on all territory west of the Jordan River in its place.”
Vote:January 27th, 2006 at 4:41 pm
In addition to Logix’s link above, it should be noted that until very recently Israel didn’t acknowledge that Palestine has a right to exist. Likud didn’t until Sharon and many still don’t. Check out Israel’s agora coin for some might take as the borders Israel wants:
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Bit/9460/photos/10ag_r.jpg
DPF’s claim that “Yet Hamas refuse point blank to retreat from their position of wanting Israel wiped out and are committed to ongoing terrorist attacks.” is completely wrong. In recent years Hamas has moved to accepting the 1948 or 1967 borders (I’ve heard both) and a truce on hostilities.
Vote:January 27th, 2006 at 5:01 pm
Courtesy of LGF
Knock knock
Vote:Who’s there
Hamas
Hamas who?
Boom!
January 27th, 2006 at 5:32 pm
It’s a shame really that we have to be presented with the dichotomy of supporting the worst elements of Likud’s fortress Israel policies that were only justifiable two decades ago, or saying that Israel needs to totally destroy it’s viability as a state by dismantling any form of security apparatus.
Either way, David, read more of Likud’s party policy, then criticise them just as much as you do Hamas. Likud’s party policy effectively undermines the possibility of any form of Palestinian state, yet you don’t seem to be noting that (I’m talking in terms of Likud here, because if it’s not Labor, then it will be Likud forming the next government, not just Kadima).
The ideal result would’ve been the moderates (i.e. NOT Kadima and Likud) winning in Israel and Fatah winning in Palestine.
Vote:January 27th, 2006 at 8:36 pm
I think Israel should return to defensible boarders and remove settlements that are in the middle of palestinians. And then they can just exterminate the palestinians or at least threaten it. The whole of gaza could be turned into rubble with everyone eliminated. Israel would have the means to do that.
Vote:January 27th, 2006 at 9:04 pm
Tim,
The whole of gaza could be turned into rubble with everyone eliminated.
Another disgusting racist comment. I don’t give a rat’s arse what twisted sick justification you have for saying this Barclay, whether you think you are being clever, or actually just letting your real motives show here…but what you have just proposed is the mass murder of about 1.4m people.
Vote:January 27th, 2006 at 9:48 pm
No I have been criticised for defending the palestinians. But after Sharon moved Israeli citizens out of gaza it made it possible for Israel to reduce the whole of gaza to rubble. I am quite sure the threat that I have outlined could now be made with some credibility and Israel would have the means to do it and more extreme politicans in Israel would even suggest it.
Vote:January 27th, 2006 at 9:56 pm
At the beginning of your comment two above your start with the words:
I think Israel should
This means that everything your post after these words is condoned by you. The next sentence starts:
And then they can just exterminate the palestinians
And you expect us to swallow the idea that you are “defending the Palestinians? Bullshit.
Vote:January 27th, 2006 at 10:10 pm
Yes my comments were extreme even offensive. But there is another take on the moves Sharon took when he removed Israeli citizens from gaza and that is to create defensible boarders. When Israeli citizens were scattered through-out gazea it made it difficult for large scale operations. Now that gaza is totally palestinian with hamas everywhere Israel can now exterminate the whole of gaza or at least threaten it with some credibility – and will.
Vote:January 28th, 2006 at 12:52 am
So, the murdering Hamas come to power in Gaza and “the election had to be respected as it reflected the will of the Palestinian people” according to Winston Peters and his laughing jackasses apparent on this thread.
So, their “social welfare” work and seeming lack of corruption was what got them elected, say the thread’s spin-meisters.
73 years ago a certain demagogue and his party won 44% of the popular vote in the last free election in pre-War Germany, and there were blind and stupid politicans who also thought they could do business with him. With a working coalition of Conservatives and Centrists Herr Hitler was able to discard democracy completely. One person, one vote, one time.
I wonder how Fawzi Salim al Mahdi (goes by the delightful name of “Abu Hitler”) did in his candidacy for ‘Palestinian’ office? Hope his two sons – Eichmann and Hitler – are proud of their Dad.
Fatah (al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, Force 17 and Tanzim) and Hamas are two sides of the same coin. Both seek the murder of Jews and the destruction of Israel – both compete to see who can kill the greater number of Jews.
The difference with Hamas is that now you have Iran and fundamentalist Islam in the driver’s seat. The reason for Hamas’ apparent lack of corruption is that they get all their money from Iran, and there haven’t been any audits of those balance sheets – at least none that see the light of day – because there’s not even a “Chinese Wall” between its terror and social funding.
With Fatah at least you had the Europeans occasionally tut-tutting over the use of their aid for muck-raking propaganda or keeping terrorists on the payroll – and no audited chart of accounts to show for it!
To think that a Hamas Government in Gaza is just a problem for Israel is a short-sighted delusion. There now exists an official Mediterranean staging-post for al-Qaeda. Put Iranian ideology (and nascent technology) and al-Qaeda’s suicidal determination together in an outlaw strip that’s looking more and more like Taliban Afghanistan and you have a lethal cocktail.
And it was al-Qaeda that threatened New Zealand for its involvement in the liberation of East Timor.
As Churchill said: “An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last”. Where are the inheritors of the legacy of the greatest generation when you need them most? Feeding crocodiles! Cowards.
Vote:January 28th, 2006 at 1:11 am
At an assembly in Damascus, Khaled Mash’al said: “This assembly holds special
significance, since it takes place after Gaza was liberated against the will of
the Zionist aggressors. Who knows when we will celebrate the liberation of Gaza,
Jerusalem, Haifa, Jaffa, and all the rest of Palestine. Hamas, together with the
Palestinian people, will implement its policy using a new language, without
feeling any urge to meet with the enemy or negotiate with it. Was Gaza liberated
through negotiations?! Hamas will continue to wield its weapons and to [claim]
its right to resist. Resistance will [continue to] be a strategic option until
the last piece of Palestinian land is liberated, and until the last refugee
returns.”
http://www.irna.ir/ar/news/view/menu-269/0512314399085311.htm, December 31, 2005
Transformation from rottweiler to toy poodle? I don’t think so. You’re just fooling yourselves, with your fingers in your ears (“la la la … I can’t hear you”).
Vote:January 28th, 2006 at 12:15 pm
Tony, quoting Churchill doesn’t lend any credence to your attacks on Palestinian democracy. Look a little closer to home, and see how the Zionist dream has been totally ruined by a generation of angry, warmongering Israeli leaders who reject the spirit in which Israel was founded (that they would hold their heads above the Arab dictatorships around them as a democratic, communalistic and secular society).
Vote:January 28th, 2006 at 1:05 pm
“Palestinian democracy” = oxymoron. Witness the ready acceptance of the “election” results, the absence of a justice system, free speech, freedom of worship, the rule of the gun across society etc etc.
“reject the spirit in which Israel was founded” – huh? Full of rhetoric and short of facts.
Declaration of State of Israel:
“Issued at Tel Aviv on May 14, 1948 (5th of Iyar, 5708)
ERETZ-ISRAEL [(Hebrew) - The Land of Israel] was the birthplace of the Jewish people. Here their spiritual, religious and political identity was shaped. Here they first attained to statehood, created cultural values of national and universal significance and gave to the world the eternal Book of Books.
After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people remained faithful to it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom.
Impelled by this historic and traditional attachment, Jews strove in every successive generation to re-establish themselves in their ancient homeland. In recent decades they returned in their masses. Pioneers, ma’pilim [(Hebrew) - immigrants coming to Eretz-Israel in defiance of restrictive legislation] and defenders, they made deserts bloom, revived the Hebrew language, built villages and towns, and created a thriving community controlling its own economy and culture, loving peace but knowing how to defend itself, bringing the blessings of progress to all the country’s inhabitants, and aspiring towards independent nationhood.
In the year 5657 (1897), at the summons of the spiritual father of the Jewish State, Theodore Herzl, the First Zionist Congress convened and proclaimed the right of the Jewish people to national rebirth in its own country.
This right was recognized in the Balfour Declaration of the 2nd November, 1917, and re-affirmed in the Mandate of the League of Nations which, in particular, gave international sanction to the historic connection between the Jewish people and Eretz-Israel and to the right of the Jewish people to rebuild its National Home.
The catastrophe which recently befell the Jewish people – the massacre of millions of Jews in Europe – was another clear demonstration of the urgency of solving the problem of its homelessness by re-establishing in Eretz-Israel the Jewish State, which would open the gates of the homeland wide to every Jew and confer upon the Jewish people the status of a fully privileged member of the comity of nations.
Survivors of the Nazi holocaust in Europe, as well as Jews from other parts of the world, continued to migrate to Eretz-Israel, undaunted by difficulties, restrictions and dangers, and never ceased to assert their right to a life of dignity, freedom and honest toil in their national homeland.
In the Second World War, the Jewish community of this country contributed its full share to the struggle of the freedom- and peace-loving nations against the forces of Nazi wickedness and, by the blood of its soldiers and its war effort, gained the right to be reckoned among the peoples who founded the United Nations.
On the 29th November, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish State in Eretz-Israel; the General Assembly required the inhabitants of Eretz-Israel to take such steps as were necessary on their part for the implementation of that resolution. This recognition by the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish their State is irrevocable.
This right is the natural right of the Jewish people to be masters of their own fate, like all other nations, in their own sovereign State.
ACCORDINGLY WE, MEMBERS OF THE PEOPLE’S COUNCIL, REPRESENTATIVES OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY OF ERETZ-ISRAEL AND OF THE ZIONIST MOVEMENT, ARE HERE ASSEMBLED ON THE DAY OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER ERETZ-ISRAEL AND, BY VIRTUE OF OUR NATURAL AND HISTORIC RIGHT AND ON THE STRENGTH OF THE RESOLUTION OF THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY, HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL, TO BE KNOWN AS THE STATE OF ISRAEL.
WE DECLARE that, with effect from the moment of the termination of the Mandate being tonight, the eve of Sabbath, the 6th Iyar, 5708 (15th May, 1948), until the establishment of the elected, regular authorities of the State in accordance with the Constitution which shall be adopted by the Elected Constituent Assembly not later than the 1st October 1948, the People’s Council shall act as a Provisional Council of State, and its executive organ, the People’s Administration, shall be the Provisional Government of the Jewish State, to be called “Israel”.
THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.
THE STATE OF ISRAEL is prepared to cooperate with the agencies and representatives of the United Nations in implementing the resolution of the General Assembly of the 29th November, 1947, and will take steps to bring about the economic union of the whole of Eretz-Israel.
WE APPEAL to the United Nations to assist the Jewish people in the building-up of its State and to receive the State of Israel into the comity of nations.
WE APPEAL – in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months – to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.
WE EXTEND our hand to all neighboring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighborliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land. The State of Israel is prepared to do its share in a common effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East.
WE APPEAL to the Jewish people throughout the Diaspora to rally round the Jews of Eretz-Israel in the tasks of immigration and upbuilding and to stand by them in the great struggle for the realization of the age-old dream – the redemption of Israel.
PLACING OUR TRUST IN THE ALMIGHTY, WE AFFIX OUR SIGNATURES TO THIS PROCLAMATION AT THIS SESSION OF THE PROVISIONAL COUNCIL OF STATE, ON THE SOIL OF THE HOMELAND, IN THE CITY OF TEL-AVIV, ON THIS SABBATH EVE, THE 5TH DAY OF IYAR, 5708 (14TH MAY, 1948).”
Vote:January 28th, 2006 at 4:11 pm
If hamas’s soldiers are part of hamas then it simplifies issues quite a bit when hamas soldiers send rockets into israel then palestines legitimate government is attacking israel with its legitimate soldiers. then israel’s legitimate response will be to atack and destroy hamas – which just happens to be the government of palestine.
Previously the government of palestine could have disowned thoe militants and said they were just crazy members of some other organization.
Vote:January 28th, 2006 at 7:12 pm
If hamas pin pricks Israel with more suicide bombers and unco-ordinated rocket attacks then Israel with simply come in and flatten gaza. With Israelis scattered all over gaza as a form of de facto hostage it made it difficult to Israel to mount a large scale no holes barred operation. Now that Sharon has evacuated gaza it means that Israel can threaten hamas with the total extermination of the palestinian population on gaza and will do it if hamas lifts a finger against Israel.
Vote:January 28th, 2006 at 7:16 pm
Yeah Tony that’s great, but THE STATE OF ISRAEL has not fostered the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it is not based on freedom, justice and peacel; it has not ensured complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; nor has it guaranteed freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture. I think is fair to say that it has worked to safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; but is simply not faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.
Now however you want to apportion the blame for why this is, and I would spread it very broadly, Israel is in an invidious position. They need to balance their own desire for as much of the territory of Israel/Palestine as they can grab, they want to do that without growing the non-Jewish population so they can maintain the “Jewishness” of the state, they want to be seen as the good guys in the scenario and crave the approval of the international community and most importantly the country that fronts half their military budget. Their justification for wanting to do all this lies in ancient history and religious reasoning which is difficult for a number of Jews to rationalise, let alone people who have no exposure to Jewish culture and history in a world that politically at least values secular ideals. The decisions Israel has made in the treading of this difficult path have lead to their directly oppressing what was a population and is now a entire people. Small wonder the Palestinians hate them. And fight them.
BUT, it is not any kind of spin to say that Hamas won more on their attacks against Fatah excesses in government than they did on their attacks against Israel and Israelis. The reality is, both Fatah and Hamas along with any number of other groups, are consistently engaged in attacking Israel. Furthermore the Palestinian populace are sceptical that any decisions on the future of their oppression by Israel will be made – as it was in Gaza and as it is being done with Israel’s “security” wall – will be made in Tel Aviv and Washington, not in Ramallah. In the meantime conditions of day to day life are dismal for most Palestinians and the link between the actions of groups like Hamas and those circumstances is tenuous for a population that has always lived below the standard of their neighbours.
Ultimately the distinction between Hamas and a bunch of right wing and nationalist parties represented in the Knesset is that those Zionist parties have a state apparatus to further their goals. And if you look at what is happening in Jerusalem and the nearby settlements, that apparatus is working to further their goals quite nicely. Which is not to say, before you inevitably leap to that conclusion, that I agree with Hamas targeting the civilian population within Israel (any more than “collateral” casualties are acceptable when Israel is trying to “arrest” someone). But basically, quit with the Israel is so greatly morally superior to these dirty Arabs, because basically a whole lot of people on both sides of the fence are as bad as each other. I don’t accept that state sanction makes killing any more acceptable, nor do I think that constant talk of willingness to negotiate makes land theft any more palatable.
I sincerely hope that Hamas are allowed to govern effectively and that their organisational experience and commitment to ending political graft pay off in a more effective bureaucracy that aids the development of the Palestinian Territories and its people faster than Israel and other Palestinians can tear it down. I am sceptical that Hamas will have any more success building a functional security apparatus than Fatah did It will be awkward now that everyone will have to call on Hamas to disarm themselves which is no more realistic now than when Fatah was in power.
Oh, and Tony you really need to do some reading about Iran, Hamas and al Qaeda, rather than just lumping them together as dangerous Arabs. Hamas holding power in Ramallah hardly puts out the welcome mat for al Qaeda.
I’m about as sick of the right and their Israel are the helpless victims of evil Arabs as I’m sure you are of the left’s belief that the US is the root of all evil (it’s not it’s the US and Israel, and probably the colonial legacy, and white folk). And this whole we won’t deal with Hamas cos their fuckwits, well sure, but why should any Palestinian group deal with Israel when they have been fucked over by Israel for decades. Oh, that’s right because Israel holds all the cards. That is so morally bankrupt.
Vote:January 28th, 2006 at 7:26 pm
Shit tim, are you actually masturbating every time you type an instalment of your sick fantasy about the genocide of Gaza?
Vote:January 28th, 2006 at 8:26 pm
“Shit tim, are you actually masturbating . . .?”
Vote:It wouldn’t surprise me.
As for “no holes barred”, more likely a Freudian slip than a typo.
January 28th, 2006 at 10:58 pm
Ms Marple, most interesting your comment that “I sincerely hope that Hamas are allowed to govern effectively…”
That, IMO, is one of the key points to this whole issue. The Hamas election is a chance to make a clean break from the past. It’s certain that there is now a significant change to the dynamics in the entire middle east. Whether it’s positive or negative depends on BOTH sides taking a new view of what the result means.
Vote:January 28th, 2006 at 11:02 pm
Ms Marple gives a very incisive summary of the Left’s view of Israel. And my, how it does sound so much like the extreme right.
Vote:January 28th, 2006 at 11:33 pm
Israel “has not fostered the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it is not based on freedom, justice and peacel (sic); it has not ensured complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; nor has it guaranteed freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture.”
Yeah, right! And where are your examples of that Ms Marple? Big-mouthing denunciation is easy. You appear to know so little about the history of Israel and its institutions that your sweeping generalisations leave you wide open to ridicule.
Al-Qaeda are already in Gaza – they announced as such a while back when the “Palestinian Authority” and the Egyptians breached their solemn undertakings to the USA, EU and the UN and left the border wide open.
The Hamas / Iran link is common knowledge – “Iran and Hamas are allies and declared in December that they represented a “united front” against Israel.” (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/36311D32-6DEB-419E-8EA7-34DEE19C150A.htm)
Go suck a lemon – and maybe do some reading.
Vote:January 29th, 2006 at 8:17 am
Ms Marple gives a very incisive summary of the Left’s view of Israel. And my, how it does sound so much like the extreme right
How so?
It occurs to me that this will make it a little harder for Israel to murder Hamas leaders on a casual basis – blowing up apartment buildings to kill terrorist leaders is one thing, assasinating democratically elected politicians is quite another.
And I’m not too sure what all the fuss is about here – sure the Palestinians have elected a bunch of evil, murderous religious fanatics to run their ‘country’, but the equally evil, bloodthirsty fanatical Likud party has been running Israel for some time now and no one seemed to bat an eyelid when the Israelis voted politicians like Meir Kahane and Rehavam Zeevi into power.
Vote:January 29th, 2006 at 8:40 am
No Miss Marple but everyone is saying what a hero Sharon is for evacuating Gaza but I see that more as a military operation to remove Israeli “hostages” so that Israel can threaten the extermination of everyone in gaza with some credibility. Now that hamas is taking over the PA, the full military implications of Sharon evacuating gaza will become clearer to everyone.
Vote:January 29th, 2006 at 9:46 am
> Oh, that’s right because Israel holds all the cards. That is so morally bankrupt.
Ms Marple – You can either live in the pragmatic world where we try to solve the problem or you can spend all your time in an idealistic world negotiating with the people without power and wasting your time.
For example one would negotiate with the leader of nth korea about his nukes not with some random sample of the population.
Dim,
> It occurs to me that this will make it a little harder for Israel to murder Hamas leaders on a casual basis
That strategy doesn’t work very wel anyway – it is a strategy of desperation born from the fact that their enemy is so difficult to pin down. Israel would much prefer to use the strategy suggested by Tim where you have a clearly defined enemy with things to protect and thus clearly defined ways of defeating it.
> but the equally evil, bloodthirsty fanatical Likud party.
What mesuring stick did you use to determine “equally” or was that just a totaly arbitrary guess?
Vote:Quite often it seems people like to just declare things equal – I guess it saves on brain power.
January 29th, 2006 at 10:07 am
Hi Genius,
What measuring stick would you like me to use? For every nutty Hamas quote about ‘wiping Israel off the face of the map’ I assure you I can produce a Likudnik promising to exterminate the Palestinians. During the Al-Asqua intifada the Palestinians killed about 1000 Israelis – it’s safe to assume about a third of them were the victims of Hamas suicide bombers – while the Israelis killed approx 2,500 Palestinians. Technically this makes the Likud party approx 2.5 times more bloodthirsty, but I’ll settle for even Stevens.
Vote:January 29th, 2006 at 10:52 am
I found this interesting article:
Vote:Israel won the war. We will win the peace.
It’s at marx2.blogspot.com
January 29th, 2006 at 3:30 pm
Dim,
Vote:Now that would be a silly game to play unless you could demonstrate that those quotes were Likud policy, otherwise it would be a red herring.
January 30th, 2006 at 4:48 pm
“Israeli soldiers killed twice as many Palestinians last week alone – both of them children – as the number of Israelis killed by Hamas all last year.”
I know it’s not an authoritative source for many of you, but the Guardian has an interesting article:
Vote:http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1697825,00.html
January 30th, 2006 at 5:56 pm
dim, the difference is that since 1948 a large part of the Arab world has used every means possible to destroy Israel. It was the Israelis who were quite perpared to live with the UN-determined partition borders. It has been the Arab countries who have cynically used the Palestinians as cannon fodder (ever wondered about who occpied Gazza and the West Bank before 1967?). So your equivalence does not hold up.
And it was the Israeli Labour Party’s peace initiatives that the were rejected by Arafat. That plus the the lastest Intifada pushed the Israeli electorate towards Lukid. So yuor comment “evil, bloodthirsty fanatical Likud party has been running Israel for some time” is a bit beside the point. When it was Labour, Araft and Hamas rejected peace.
The cards are now clearly on the table – Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Isreal whereas the Israeli people and even the Likud party under Sharon support a Palestinian state.
Vote:January 31st, 2006 at 10:47 pm
The loss of civilian lives is tragic and the reason these children died is because they lived in a society that has psychopathically created and prolonged needless hatred and destruction for nearly 80 years. That the youngsters wandered away from home to places where they shouldn’t have been, and were shot, is sad. All Hamas and Fatah have to do is start talking peace, and reining in their own belligerency and that of other terror groups.
All the Qassam rockets still being launched at Israel are done so by Hamas. From 1989 to the end of 2002 Hamas murdered over 480 Israelis – remember the Dolphinarium nightclub (Hamas killed 20 kids there) and the Sbarro pizza shop (Hamas killed 15 there)? And the targeted killing of Israelis continues.
The sick part of the Guardian story is that Hamas executed their kidnapped, bound Israeli civilian because they feared that the IDF were getting close to freeing the hostage. (Why didn’t the kidnappers just release him, and flee the scene?)
The Guardian story (posted from Khan Younis – how much was influenced by the renowned “Palestinian” censorship?) implies that murder of a hostage is justified behaviour, but shooting at children wandering round after dark near a patrolled border during a state of armed hostility, with suicide bombers trying to cross the border as a daily occurrence – well that’s plain unreasonable. Double standard? Not really, because it’s always the same one-eyed polemic from “al-Guardian”.
The number of Israeli soldiers and security personnel who died defending the legitimate, UN-created State of Israel from Arab aggression since 1948 is well over 20,000 (not counting the thousands of targeted Israeli civilian deaths). This is more than two-thirds of New Zealand’s total dead in the slaughters of WW1 and WW2 combined (29,967).
And the targeted killing of Israelis continues – because the terror groups say that all Israelis are legitimate targets.
Will Hamas reform? There’s no incentive yet for them to do so.
Vote:February 1st, 2006 at 7:17 am
“…the reason these children died is because they lived in a society that has psychopathically created and prolonged needless hatred and destruction for nearly 80 years.”
Or perhaps Tony it is because they live in a society that had the promise of self-determination proffered then torn from it 80 years ago and who for decades have lived as refugees, a stones throw from their ancestral homes, under the thumb of a violent and oppressive occupying power who to this day sign agreements promising one thing then proceed to just the opposite with complete impunity.
I agree that the Hamas kidnapping part of the story is sick, but I’d be reticent to call it “the” sick part. How about the bit where an Israel soldier, behind a big wall, in a fortified watchtower, shot a nine year old girl? Or what about the bit where a 13 year old boy walking along the wrong road is categorised as a terrorist worthy of being shot dead because maybe he was going to throw stones at cars?
Vote:February 1st, 2006 at 7:42 am
“promise of self-determination proffered then torn from it 80 years ago”
Then how do you account for Jordan? Ah, that is conviently forgotten. The “Palestinians” got their self-determined country, but the real goal reason behind Palestine is to get rid of Israel…
From the horse’s mouth:
“The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism.
For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan. ”
Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein.
March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper Trouw.
This is not some anti-Palestinian ranting…this is what the PLO thought!!!
Vote:February 1st, 2006 at 8:20 am
Hi Neil,
Since much of what you wrote was about the Israeli Labour party, and Israels neighbours, and not about Likud or Hamas (which is what we are discussing) I’ll happily ignore it. But I am curious about your claim that: It was the Israelis who were quite perpared to live with the UN-determined partition borders.
How do you think their program of settelement expansion – which has been a constant feature of Israeli policy for almost forty years – fits in with your claim?
Genius wrote: Now that would be a silly game to play unless you could demonstrate that those quotes were Likud policy, otherwise it would be a red herring.
Your argument seems to be that the Likud government can make public statements about killing Palestinians and order the army to kill large numbers of Palestinians – including far more civilians, incidentally, than Hamas has killed – but unless they sign a policy paper articulating their anti-Palestinian position they’re largely blameless.
That seems like a very silly argument to make. I trust I’ve misunderstood you.
Back to Neil, who also wrote: the Israeli people and even the Likud party under Sharon support a Palestinian state.
Nonsense. How could they support a state when they’re still enthusiastically stealing their land?
Vote:February 1st, 2006 at 8:49 am
hi dim, firstly I’ll state my personal view that the settlement process was a big mistake. I take the view that Israel, after the 1967 war, should have returned to the 1967 borders and fought the successive wars of survival from a more difficult position militarily but at least they would have had the moral high ground.
But the settlement process was a reaction to the Arab states attempts to destroy Israel. Israel was quite prepared to give back the far greater land area of the Sinai in return for peace with Egypt. The settlement process was not a greedy land grab – it was a strategic decision to make Israel more defensible. I personally think that was a mistake, but the responsibility lies mostly with the Arab nations whose intractable position left Israel with few alternatives.
In 1948 Israel was quite prepared to live within the UN-determined partition borders – which were far smaller than the 1967 ones. It was the Arab states who did not want to abide by this.
The history has been one of Israel wanting peace in a 2 nation arrangement and of surrounding Arab countries not wanting this. The security policies of Israel, many of which I disagree with, are a result of this. If the Arab world had accepted Israel’s right to exist in 1948 then there would have been no settlements and the Palestinian State would have been far bigger.
And this situation is now clear than it has been for while. The former Labour government offered a peace accord, the Lukid Party under Sharon supported a Palestinian state, the majority of Israel
Vote: