February 12, 2006 11:12pm by David Farrar

A School Initiative

The SST has an interesting article on Avondale College which has set up a website where parents can check their children’s attendance rates grades and detentions.

Looks pretty sensible to me. This is all data which a parent has an absolute right to know, and means they can be aware of any issues and progress more than twice a year. Hopefully also they can see if problems are developing.

Moxie at Kete Were (eagerly supported by others in the comments) is horrified though. And I thought the reasons given are a wonderful explanation of one of the fundamental differences between many on the left and right:

1. Grades and days off are not the only measures of educational success

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Comments (36)

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stef

I really don’t understand her comments. Schools should be telling parents when they aren’t in school, and they also inform them of their grades anyway unless they’ve stopped handing out report cards since I left.

I’m also at a loss as to what ‘educational success’ actually entails under her defintion. Since apparently attending class and achieving a decent standard of work isn’t.

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February 12, 2006 11:51pm

Zippy Gonzales

Reports may have changed since I was at school, but I’m fairly damned sure that detentions were not recorded for parental consumption. Is this parent’s right to know the same right to know whether their under-16 year old has had an abortion? Just wondering where the line is drawn.

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February 13, 2006 12:59am

Peter

At the risk of being accused of liberalism. C&P from my contribution to anther forum.
Parents can take more responsibility for their children by being actively involved in their lives. Showing an interest in what they do and where they are, lovingly nurturing them with appropriate ethics, teaching them respect by showing them respect, letting them develop as people by giving them freedom tempered with love and concern for them, on & on. They cannot take more responsibility for them or contribute to their eventual entry into the adult world by SPYING on them.
How can anybody countenance parentage via the internet? This is symptomatic of everything that is wrong with the way this world is going. Don’t even think about bringing up the argument of giving parents another option to share their children’s lives. This is a one way street, parents spying on children. Show your children some respect. Would you welcome a camera recording your daily life and having it available to your children? This is so utterly disrespectful of our future adult generation, rant rant. The only possible advantage I can see is that in future, when DBP shoves a tennis ball in a student’s mouth and commits other forms of child abuse we have video evidence.
I am deeply disappointed to hear your opinion DPF, alot respect from me has just been lost. You probably don’t care about my opinion but my depth of feeling on this is VERY strong and I would gladly use any means at my disposal to see this doesn’t happen to our future adults.

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February 13, 2006 1:21am

David Farrar

Peter – if you think parents being told if their kids are like not turning up to school is spying on the kids, then we are never going to agree.

Zippy – they are not putting up medical and counselling records and nor should they. But yes I think parents have the right to find out if their kid has been getting sentenced to detention every week etc. Parents can’t help their kids if they don’t know there is a problem.

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February 13, 2006 1:48am

Peter

David, parents should know their children are getting detentions or not coping academically by wondering why they were late home or why they are not able to complete their homework to a satisfactory standard. This is what parents are supposed to do. This invasive system will only serve to weaken the role of parenting by giving them a lazy method to monitor their “possessions”. Those parents who don’t give a damn about their kids will probably not even own a computer or if they do they will not give a toss about this new system as they have already been shown to be wanting in parental responsibility.
The mere fact that maharey is a proponent should be enough to ring some serious alarm bells.

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February 13, 2006 5:08am

David Farrar

Peter – your view is rather naive. Kids can and do lie to parents about being late home. Are you advocating that a school’s responsibility is to hide the truth from parents? And likewise kids often hide bad grades until the formal reports by which stage half a year or more can be wasted.

I don’t disagree that parents and students communicating directly is the best mechanism but this doesn’t work in many cases. And I wouldn’t generalise that parents are automatically disinterested if their kids are failing at school.

As for Maharey, well even a stopped clock is accurate twice a day.

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February 13, 2006 5:35am

Paula Weir

I believe this is a gross invasion of student’s privacy. All it will do is encourage more lazy parents to not bother communicating with their teens.
A responsible parent should be taking the time, and making the effort to know what is going on in their children’s lives.
My guess is the children who have the largest truancy rates would be less likely to have computers in their homes, or parents that are concerned where they are.
Yes I am being a jugemental baggage, but the amount of young teens and pre-teens out late at night with no adult supervision is frightening.

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February 13, 2006 9:00am

Cadmus

Seems a slack way out for the school, by saying go to a web site to see how your child is behaving.
I see it 2 ways, some parents will be on line everyday tracking their kid. And the school will expect parents to further disipline their child, should they be in trouble.

Others parents, many without a PC, or knowledge how to use one, still won’t give 2 stuffs about what their kid gets up to, and will be more concerned when will the slotmachine jackpot be struck in their local bars gaming room.

This solution is just a feel good alternative for the white middle class public throughout the country, thinking this will be good for all schools, and all those nasty brown kids will be off the street during school hrs! …yer dream on!

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February 13, 2006 9:03am

Zippy Gonzales

If this scheme had been set up for a kindergarten or primary school first, I wouldn’t have been so aggrieved. In a high school context however, using the modern equivalent of a parental note pinned to one’s back, it demonstrates a lack of trust in young adult students.

There is a disjunct between this control freakish monitoring of secondary students who, when moving to uni or tech, will face none of this Big Brother observation. Surely it makes more sense to start this scheme with the tots and tweeners and ease off the controls in high school in anticipation of their introduction to the real world, when they will have to stand on their own two feet.

It will be interesting to follow this pilot to see whether it leads to an increase in school performance. Personally, I’m just glad that I went to school in a day when reports came out twice a year instead of every day.

Where’s Ferris Bueller when you need him?

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February 13, 2006 9:17am

Paula Weir

Computers are both beneficial, and harmful when it comes to relationships.
If I was a student at the school in question and thought my parents were spying on me, I would be rebellious and wind up the teachers just to aggravate.
As an adult I am sick of the gross invasion into my own privacy, and those that choose to do so obviously are very insecure, and have nothing better to do with their time.
As a parent if my child wanted nothing to do with me I would take a long hard look at myself in the mirror and contemplate where I went wrong.

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February 13, 2006 9:28am

Paula Weir

Interesting to hear the comments on the radio re. this issue.
If you are in a position of power like the school is, and you are using the computer in this manner, in effect it has rather sinister connotations and almost sounds like bullying tactics to me.
I still believe no matter what the parents praising the schools initiative say, that this is a cowardly, and hypocritical way of dealing with issues in a teenagers lives.
Any parent that is letting communication with their teen get this bad, is heading for problems that could be very destructive in the future.
Parents need to deal with difficult, and painful issues as they arise or the results can be devestating.

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February 13, 2006 9:52am

llew

“How can anybody countenance parentage via the internet?”

Hardly.

It’s just another medium for the school to report things they should be communicating to parents anyway.

No big deal for most, the parents of the worst offenders generally won’t use it anyway.

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February 13, 2006 10:17am

TomS

Alice must love the mental gymnastics of living in the right wing wonderland. Right wingers, for all their blathering about individual liberty from the nanny state, are incredibly authoritarian. What the modern right wing means by freedom is simply the the freedom of corporations to make money and this thinking pervades everything the right does, to the point that “right” is now more or less synonymous with being an apologist for a kind of corporate, authoritarian quasi-fascism. Yeah, this does sum up the difference between left and right. Leftists examine this with concern for the privacy of children and a desire to ensure the voices of the least powerful are heard. Maybe its a good idea, maybe not. Right wingers run it through their simplistic ideology filter and nod in approval, as this fufills their basic Hobbesian world view of the powerful imposing themselves on the weak and punishment being a better motivator than reward.

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February 13, 2006 10:24am

TomS

Alice must love the mental gymnastics of living in the right wing wonderland. Right wingers, for all their blathering about individual liberty from the nanny state, are incredibly authoritarian. What the modern right wing means by freedom is simply the the freedom of corporations to make money and this thinking pervades everything the right does, to the point that “right” is now more or less synonymous with being an apologist for a kind of corporate, authoritarian quasi-fascism. Yeah, this does sum up the difference between left and right. Leftists examine this with concern for the privacy of children and a desire to ensure the voices of the least powerful are heard. Maybe its a good idea, maybe not. Right wingers run it through their simplistic ideology filter and nod in approval, as this fufills their basic Hobbesian world view of the powerful imposing themselves on the weak and punishment being a better motivator than reward.

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February 13, 2006 10:27am

gd

So from the comments so far it seems that schools musnt communicate any information about little Johhny or Sally because thats an invasion of the childs privacy.Good parents will “know” what their children are doing at school and so dont need the school to tell them Good grief What planet are you people on And before you get stuck in I and my wife have raised 2 children who are now well adjusted young adults.We did so in partnership with the school they attended.Using common sense a sadly lacking commodity from the comments so far we and the school worked together to ensure the children had the very best opportunity to grow and develop as they both did.It aint rocket science but given the numbers of dysfunctional kids running riot you would think it was.

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February 13, 2006 11:00am

Paula Weir

Parents have managed for years by getting involved with their children’s schools, getting off their butts and actually talking to their children’s teachers.
A computer should not be necessary to keep track of your own children, and is as greater betrayal of trust as reading their diaries.
I have found it much better to put my efforts into the school PTA and get a greater understanding of all facets of school life.
I also spend at least an hour each day one on one with my four children. Academically they are thriving, and have never had any problems at school that could not be solved by talking to their teachers ( obviously a foreign concept to most ). Their teachers have always provided test results for viewing at the three interviews per year, and invited parents to view work anytime they are visiting.
If you school is inadequate at communicating, common sense would tell you to vote with your feet and move on.
Then again as my children are at an independent school, maybe I am out of touch with state schools.
Are they not fronting up to parents adequately?

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February 13, 2006 11:25am

llew

“Are they not fronting up to parents adequately?”

It would seem so, they’ve even come up with an innovative way to report back to parents quicker, by letting them access certain information on the web.

Information which is not a breach of privacy, but the very same information you get by engaging with your childrens’ teachers, information that really, schools are obliged to give to parents so that they can be involved in their childrens’ schooling.

And Paula, I don’t know about your school, but you as a parent are very much the exception in how much you are involved in your childrens’ schooling.

Some parents have managed for years, many have not (not that a website is going to encourage them though).

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February 13, 2006 11:46am

mara

In an ideal world we would not have surveilence equipment in shopping malls,petrol stations or in the corner dairy because perfect people would not rob or kill each other.Also young adults would not cleverly deceive their parents as to what they actually do during school hours.My own daughter is 14 and doing well at school,but I wouldn’t mind the oportunity of knowing about it the FIRST time she decided to wag off with some friends to the nearest fashion haunt.

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February 13, 2006 1:15pm

PaulL

I must say I am a little surprised at the outrage the left can manufacture for this. It is simply progress information.

How about if I just suggested that a school would phone each parent once a week and give an update on how their child was going. Would that then be evil? Seems to me that would be the school reaching out and involving parents in their child’s education.

Is it just because this can occur at the parent’s convenience that makes it bad?

Or is it because it involves technology?

Or is it because it happens irrespective of whether the teacher chooses to pick up the phone? And the power shift from the teacher to the parent is the real problem here?

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February 13, 2006 2:45pm

dim

I must say I am a little surprised at the outrage the left can manufacture for this.

Don’t be too surprised. This leftie thinks it’s a great idea.

We’re not ‘the borg’, you know.

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February 13, 2006 2:56pm

llew

Maybe I haven’t yet put everyone into the “correct” box, but are the lefties against & the righties for? I figured it was a bit more mixed than that.

I’m probably lefter than a lot who come here & I have no problem with the initiative. I agree pretty much with PaulL.

Although as far as any power shift goes, I doubt that teachers will mind if parents pay more attention to their kids’ progress.

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February 13, 2006 3:17pm

Paula Weir

Got me confused, I am certainly not a leftie.
I don’t think it has anything to do with technology, and if it was just about collecting results which by entering a code you can do already for most exams, there would be no real issue.
The issue here is that if a child is struggling with their academic studies a good parent, and a good teacher should be in personal communication without having to resort to using a computer. Seems like laziness on behalf of both parties.
I also have a big issue with parents who distrust their children so much they have to check up on them.
Personal issues like detention, and behaviour issues should not be posted on websites these should be being dealt with on a personal level.
If parents really want more respect, they should be gaining it by less deceitful methods.

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February 13, 2006 3:32pm

gd

Its a continuim Ask any teacher or principal At one end you get parents who harrase the school thinking its in their childrens interest At the other end the parents who take no part and show no interest.And the decile of the school will often determine the mix Thankfully most parents take a reasonable approach.This is using modern technology to communicate. Oldies will remember the term of half year written reports that were sent home (or not if given to the kids to deliver) This is that on an ongoing and modern communciation device called a computer.Only the totally paranoid Big Brother SIS fearer would see it any other way

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February 13, 2006 3:45pm

span(ner in the works)

I wonder if part of Avondale’s motivation is
a) their high number of international students
and
b) the possibility of selling this technology to other schools

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February 13, 2006 3:54pm

llew

Paula, you are right – the teacher should be in contact with the parents in the event of problem behaviour.

And I’ve little doubt that they will be, with or without this website reporting.

And deceitful? How so? Does accessing the service require a clandestine approach?

Actually, I think my child would be quite happy for me to go look at how well she’s doing, she’s proud enough of the hardcopy reports she brings home, AND I’ll be going to meet the teacher evenings to discuss her progress as I normally would.

How deceitful would that be?

Then again, if I had a problem child & told him/her, that I’d be checking the website now & then to see how his/her attendance was going, do you think that might encourage him/her not to wag school?

if I recall correctly, school reports tell you how many days school a child missed too. Is it deceitful to read these reports? How distrusting of me!

Come to that, would it not be deceitful to phone my child’s teacher nehind their back & ask how little Johnnie is going?

OK. Ramble over.

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February 13, 2006 4:01pm

mara

The best site I have ever found to discuss scholastic achievement or failure is .. Melanie Philips..Her best selling book “All Must Have Prizes” is essential reading for any parent seriously interested in the education of their children.Her book is UK based but the same principles apply to NZ.I have a 14 year old in a state school,read her book and damm nearly wept.

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February 13, 2006 7:33pm

PaulL

Dim, my apologies. It isn’t a left v’s right, I think it is more probably based around the usual naysayers – call them the “DPF is always wrong” crowd. I tend to label this group as the left, but it woudl be correct to observe that, whilst they often agree with the left (makes sense if you always disagree with DPF), they aren’t actually the left.

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February 13, 2006 8:40pm

Peter

First, TomS, contribute something relevant or piss off and stop hitting the echo button twice.
mara, making an analogy between high crime risk securtiy cameras and schools is not really on track now is it?
I do not advocate less communication between schools, parents and PUPILS. What I am afraid of is the one way mirror aspects of this policy. My son will probably welcome this initiative as he is a techno junky but I would not use it as it removes one more human element in my communication with him. What next? Texting each other from across the room? Hang on, that’s already happening. How are we improving our children’s chances of survivng in the big wide world by shortening their leash? To say nothing of the lazy parenting options being touted here.
DPF, loved the analogy of the stopped clock. I am not naive about the complicity of children, I was one of the worst offenders so know all the tricks.

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February 13, 2006 9:28pm

Paula Weir

I have a totally honest, and open relationship with my children, and I always tell them when I will be approaching their teachers.
Experience has shown me that keeping secrets, and sneaking around is very hurtful, and painful.
Children need and deserve trust, and respect, even if that means accepting the important things to them which are totally repugnant to you.
Misinterpretation of actions by parents can lead to false assumptions that ruin lives.
As an adult I have been stung more than once by people that have shared my personal information on their sites, and this has led me to believe that it is time we go back to basic communication techniques.

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February 13, 2006 10:19pm

llew

Questions.

Why all the talk of sneaking around & spying? No offence intended, but trusting & trusted people don’t talk like that.

How about being open & honest with your children about using the web based reporting? Where does it say parents have to sneak around behind their childrens’ backs?

Why does use of technology have to be at the expense of personal contact?

What’s the difference between viewing these reports online & reading a paper copy of a school report?

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February 14, 2006 8:40am

Kate

I don’ think that it is a left vs right issue – Its more of a liberal vs conservative thing.

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February 14, 2006 8:49am

Kate

I don’ think that it is a left vs right issue – Its more of a liberal vs conservative thing.

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February 14, 2006 8:50am

Paula Weir

Fair comment.
I certainly am not very trusting of the motives behind this. Reports and exams results, and to a lesser extent absences could be shown with privacy coded access.
Still disagree with the suggestion that detentions and behaviour issues as reported on some stations should be discussed in this manner.
Part of being a trusted, and trusting person is the expectation that you should be able to front up personally and face consequences of behaviours, and actions and surely this is not teaching our children this.
Besides it appears this morning that it has been decided by most principals that the scheme would be too costly.

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February 14, 2006 9:28am

llew

They are talking about secure, password protected records.

Paula, I agree with you to a large extent – behaviour problems should be discussed face to face (which is where most teachers discover the genetic cause of the behaviour problems), I doubt those parents would use this facility anyway. I doubt they pay much attention at all & probably don’t read the standard school reports either.

On a light note: pity the poor kids whose parents teach at their schools… talk about privacy issues, who wants their parents to know their results before they do.

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February 14, 2006 9:40am

Kelly Broadbent

So at first, I thought “What a TERRIBLE idea! What an UTTER invasion of students privacy! The OUTRAGE!!!”… then common sense got the better of me.

As long as the information given out is limited to non-confidential things (for instance attendance records and grades) then I am all for it.

However! I do think there is a fairly obvious problem that isn’t being dealt with. If a parent knows their child is playing truant, then without actually physically being present 24/7, how can they ensure their child is in class? Believe me (from family experience), just because a child wags school, doesn’t indicate lack of parental effort.

I think the school system needs to be more inclusive of different learning styles, and that the teaching systems used *definitely* need to be ravamped with modern psychology. Learning can be fun – look how many people enjoy university! – the schools just need to cotton on to the fact, and I really believe the truancy levels would drop and grades would raise. Am I using pink-tinted lenses?

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February 15, 2006 1:22am

George

This type of system will require huge commitment and dedication from teachers. The management of Avondale College may well be creating a stick for their own backs. There will presumably need to be protocols on what to disclose, what not to disclose, and how long a teacher has to produce the information.

Students should have the right to deal with their school – ON A ONE-TO_ONE BASIS. At times, I honestly believe that parents do more harm than good, if the teachers/counsellors etc have the professionalism and objectivity to provide creative solutions to any problems, and to do it INTERNALLY.

This web option would appear to be a surveillance vehicle for nosey parents who are likely to get very about any occasional blip in child performance. Why not have Webcams all over the school so that the parent can WATCH the child, class and the teacher in action – it would be more revealing? Foucault’s field day!

I believe that the role of the parent is to encourage and enhance processes for the child, not to provide lofty governance based on key performance indicators, management by objectives, return on investment and project deliverables! (i.e. The parent need not be doing statistical analysis on a child’s key facts when the child is needing encouragement with the homework!)

In spite of statements I keep reading to the contrary, I believe that parents do at times fail to bring sufficient objectivity to the education of their children. Look on it as a collaboration involving school and child with family in support. And the kids must learn about the concepts of self-motivation and trust. This is the best place and time.
George

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February 16, 2006 4:48pm