England does not equal Britain
May 31st, 2006 at 8:45 am by David FarrarJust like it annoys me when media use “web” instead of “Internet” it also annoys me when people refer to the United Kingdom as England.
In this NZPA story on Pitcairn Island, the lead paragraph says “The Privy Council will decide if England has legal jurisdiction over the remote islands.”
Umm no they won’t. Well not unless they are about to overturn the 1707 Act of Union between England and Scotland.
In 1790 when Pitcairn was settled by the Bounty crew, the country then in existence was the “United Kingdom of Great Britain”. In 1800 it became the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and then in 1922 changed to be the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
Pedants may ask what about Wales? Well they were never merged/unified with England, they were conquered 
Wales went from being a Kingdom to a Principality in 1284 through the Statute of Rhuddlan, and in 1535 the Laws in Wales Act 1535 annexed Wales to the legal system of England.
Anyway back to my main point, England does not exist as a sovereign country since 1707, well except in some sporting contests.
Tags: Media
May 31st, 2006 at 9:08 am
The issue is a little clouded in this case by the cases being heard under the laws of EnglandandWales (as opposed to Scotland or NI). However the phrasing in the article could certainly be improved
Vote:May 31st, 2006 at 9:16 am
Ma Granny would applaud your sentiments but I have to agree with the above poster. The Scots are proud of two things, their education system and their independent legal system. Not sure in this case when we are talking about England (the legal system) or the UK.
Otherwise – damn right.
Vote:May 31st, 2006 at 9:33 am
The sooner the constituent parts of the United Kingdom regain their independence the better.
Vote:May 31st, 2006 at 9:38 am
Uroskin – Why?
Vote:May 31st, 2006 at 9:40 am
The UK clearly has legal jurisdiction. It internally may decide that English law applies in certain areas, but it is the UK which has jurisdiction.
Vote:May 31st, 2006 at 9:47 am
I’m with the above.
The article is wrong, in that it confuses jurisdiction and sovereignty, but what the case is about is whether English law applies on Pitcairn (not whether British law applies, because there isn’t a British law).
English law will likely apply if there is British sovereignty over the Islands, but the quote you pull out to criticise is basically correct (if if the NZPA didn’t know why).
Vote:May 31st, 2006 at 10:00 am
The article uses England and Britain interchangeably throughout, such as “whether England had the legal right to charge the men.”
Vote:May 31st, 2006 at 10:10 am
I’d like to take issue with this assertion, however: “The UK clearly has legal jurisdiction.”
If the UK clearly had jurisdction the Privy Council would likely not have granted leave for the case to be heard (which I believe they must do in criminal cases). It’s set down arguments for two weeks so it can determine whether there is jurisdiction.
Vote:May 31st, 2006 at 10:24 am
It gets even more complicated than that. Scotland, Northern Ireland & Wales have Parliamentary assemblies with law-making & taxing powers. So far none of the three has made an international treaty because they don’t have powers over foreign or defence affairs, and the Northern Ireland Assembly disagrees with itself so much that it hasn’t met all that often.
In the Crown Dependencies of the Channel Islands & the Isle of Man, they pay their bills in pounds sterling, interchangeable with the mainland, but they set their own taxes. The tv is licensed by the British – but the Isle of Man has licensed its own radio station. All are part of the same phone numbering system – so a call from Northern Ireland to Jersey isn’t an international call, and a bank transfer from Manchester to Gurnsey or the Isla of Man isn’t an international transaction. In Scotland and Northern Ireland some of the banknotes are issued by local banks, but businesses in the other countries of the UK don’t have to accept them if they don’t want to. The Island of Sark, Europe’s last feudal territory, has no taxes and describes itself as being neither in or out of the EU.
And one thing is for sure: if you describe something as being English, or in England, you are talking about that part of the island of Great Britain that to the east of the Welsh, and south of the Scottish, border. Apart, of course, from Berwick-on-Tweed.
Vote:May 31st, 2006 at 10:54 am
David, I think you chose the wrong quote to highlight. “…defence lawyers are expected to challenge the English right to sovereignty over the islands ” is clearly wrong, the others are defensible (if inconsistent) if you take the view that the English legal system is a sub-set of the British legal system.
Vote:May 31st, 2006 at 1:37 pm
Graeme – I meant the UK, rather than England, is clearly the party that should be being referred to as having lega;l juridisction.
Vote:May 31st, 2006 at 1:52 pm
When Ulster joins Eire, Ireland can be Irish and Britain can be British.
Ulster is part of Ireland in rugby, but competes alongside Wales, Scotland and England in football.
Why, the UK has pretensions to being a rugby union and football super power, but the IRB is based in Dublin.
Vote:May 31st, 2006 at 2:55 pm
Uroskin: “The sooner the constituent parts of the United Kingdom regain their independence the better”.
So high paid London lawyers can create a whole new layer of rules & laws. Splitting up the country only benefits the bureaucrat’s, it won’t make anyone more free.
Vote:May 31st, 2006 at 4:04 pm
DPF – I agree. Furthermore, the media need to stop referring to HM the Queen as “the Queen of England”. Queen Anne was the last “Queen of Englad”, over three hundred years ago!
Mind you, I doubt we’ll see the media saying “Queen of New Zealand” any time soon.
Vote:May 31st, 2006 at 5:24 pm
Not unless there was a calamity and Prince Edward acceded to the throne
Vote:May 31st, 2006 at 9:58 pm
Legal niceties aside, my impression is that only English people talk about Britain and the British. Wales is Welsh, Scotland is Scottish, etc. These days ‘Britain’ is an English fantasy.
Vote:June 1st, 2006 at 12:12 pm
SPC – never seen a team called Ulster competing in international (association) football (as opposed to real football) with Wales etc. You must be confusing the historic area of Ulster with the modern Northern Ireland – which I believe is geographically only part of ancient Ulster.
More pertinently wHen are the Irish in the republic going to come to their senses and going to abandon their short term folly of a quasi religious state and rejoin the modern secular union?
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