Views galore on Kahui deaths
June 28th, 2006 at 12:31 pm by David FarrarIt is natural when faced with not only the tragic killing of infant twins, but also a family who seemed to have adopted a mafia type vow of silence not to let any one be held accountable, that people ask how does this happen, that a family gets like this?
New blogger Patrick Dunford looks at the much lower rate of Pacific Island child abuse, and wonders if their religious faith and family based social structures explain part of that.
No Right Turn makes the unpopular but correct observation that the Kahui family are not legally obliged to co-operate with the Police. However actions have consequences and if they choose to take a mafia type vow of silence to protect the family, they will face public odium and pressure for that choice.
Parekura Horomia, Pita Sharples and Ron Mark have all called for the Police to “take” family members in for questioning and/or obstruction of justice. The family incidentally need to be careful about the difference between refusing to say anything (which they can do) and all agreeing to a line of they don’t know who did it (which would probably qualify as conspiracy to commit perjury or something).
The Counties Manukau’s police commander has stated there is an element of hypocrisy to Maori and Pacific Island cultures that promote aroha (love) and whanau (family).
Alan Duff refers to the once were warriors culture in the Kahui family which saw an adult passed out from alcohol at seven pm, when Pita Sharples called, and says the answer is “We’ve got to instil values.”
John Minto says “society is to blame” for the death of the twins. He claims Maori in our low income communities have seen their standard of living plummet in two decades, and this is to blame. The interesting thing is that while I don’t have figures right back to 1986 on hand, I have sourced some data for more recent years. A Treasury papers says from 1991 to 1996 Maori incomes increased. The Stats NZ income data shows average income for Maori increased 24% from June 2001 to June 2005 (identical to NZ increase of 25%).
And finally a Labour Department study of the years 1997 to 2003 found that the 22% increase in Maori income was higher than that of any other ethnic group (including European). I wonder with the Mintos of the world if there is anything at all they don’t blame on society?
Bruce Logan says family values help prevent abuse, lamenting that “Sex and marriage used to be about the birth and nurturing of children and social order. Now sex is about the acceptance of behaviour which is of no concern to anyone other than the consenting adults involved.” I agree with Logan that family values are crucial, but I don’t see that has much to do with consensual pre-marital sex. Family values are about having a work ethic in a family, valuing education, being prepared to put you child’s needs over your own etc etc.
Children’s Commissioner Cindy Kiro says the repeal if Section 59 is “a fundamental and necessary step to ensure that children in New Zealand grow up in safe and secure environments.” I will blog later on about the stupidity of the Section 59 repeal advocates in trying to link child murders to Section 59 in this way.
Dover Samuels has said “Some Maori leaders are covering up child abuse under the pretence that the violence is part of their culture”
As for my personal view, well the thing that struck me is how 11 out of 12 adults in that family are on benefits. With the lowest unemployment in the world there is just no legitimate excuse for that, and such a culture of non work would be an awful environment for bringing up a family.
This isn’t an argument against welfare per se. Far from it. I have friends who are solo mums or on the invalids benefit who are or will be great parents and they are using the welfare system in the way it is designed. But it was never designed to have 11 able bodied adults to be able to spend most of their day sitting at home getting pissed by 7 pm, while no one notices the kids being killed.
Perhaps CYPFS should not just be reactive to complaints, but be funded so it can be pro-active to identify at risk families such as this one, and intervene before it it too late? Maybe one needs agencies to share data to identify “profiles” such as over-crowded homes or more than x number of people on a benefit. People don’t like profiling, but waiting for the children to turn up dead isn’t a great alternative.
Sadly at the end of the day while there are many factors such as culture, poverty, family values, education etc there are no easy fixes. And regardless of all of the above, we should never let “factors” divert us from the fact that anyone who kills a child like this is quite amoral or evil, and those who cover it up are also evil. All (well bar sociopaths or severely retarded) human beings have the ability to know right from wrong when it is as basic as this.
UPDATE: Jordan has taken offence (well as much offence as you can when he is sitting next to me) at my last few paras. But he is reading things into what I said. I was very careful not to say benefits kill kids. In fact I specifically went out of my way to talk about my positive experiences with benefits helping people. What I was saying is that 11/12 adults on a benefit is an unhealthy environment.
I did not say the solution is to cut off their benefits. I raised it in the context of whether extremely high levels of benefit dependency may be an indicator of concern for child welfare. It’s one of the problems the left often has – that they feel any discussion of benefit dependency is an attack on the entire welfare system. And it needn’t be.
Tags: New Zealand
June 28th, 2006 at 12:46 pm
“Sadly at the end of the day while there are many factors such as culture, poverty, family values, education etc there are no easy fixes. And regardless of all of the above, we should never let “factors” divert us from the fact that anyone who kills a child like this is quite amoral or evil, and those who cover it up are also evil. All (well bar sociopaths or severely retarded) human beings have the ability to know right from wrong when it is as basic as this.”
So true. This is the point I constantly think of when tragedies like this occur. A bandwagon of people are shocked and ‘seek answers’. The answers they find will mostly reflect their prejudices about the people involved. But the simple fact is that a horrific crime has been committed and 99.99% of that is on the individual(s) involved.
Whatever sociological/political/cultural factors we care to dig up, the simple fact is that some person(s) took it into their head to bash some kids such that they died. They should and probably will be punished very harshly. This includes anyone who is obstructing justice too.
The worst thing about this event is that it becomes such a circus that justice becomes more difficult. Juries are prejudiced by media coverage, and families clam up to protect themselves. Political measures are rushed through in the heat of the moment.
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 12:50 pm
What a load of shit from all these commentators. These kids are dead because someone killed them. End of story. Kids have been killed by adults in all societies – rich, poor, violent, peaceful – since the beginning of the species. blaming poverty, helen clark, don brash, maori culture, the world bank etc is silly. None of these people or organisations are killers – the only killer is the person who killed them – and there the responsibility should lie.
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 1:06 pm
Sadly we have become a society where no one has to take responsibility for their actions.This has been encouraged and enshrined in law by various governments over the past 3 decades.Excuses galore are trotted out by the usual suspects.Rights rights and more damn rights are all we hear.Rights comes with responsibility and this is never more evident than in this case. The rights of the dead babies have been ignored by the family and those that support them both directly and indirectly.We are a sick society where a small but vocal minority is allowed to bully the majority into recanting their values their ethics and their morality to appease the minority.It is to be hoped this case may be a tipping point where the majority take charge and rebuff the minority who seek to lower standards of behaviour.So to the John Mintos and fellow travellers I say If you want to be part of the solution stop finding excuses for the inexcusable and make those who should be responsible for their actions face up to those responsibilities insteading of encouranging and supporting them hiding away.
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 1:17 pm
To some extent I agree gd – it does seem more prevalent that people don’t take responsibility for their actions. I’ve long wondered if it’s part of the “americanisation” process that seems to be happening in some parts of the world, but that may be an unfair opinion based purely on the fact that so much of what we’re exposed to on TV is American. (and in no way is this indicative of any “anti-american” feeling on my part – I love America for The Simpsons!)
But I don’t consider these commentators are offering excuses. They’re just trying to understand why. And obviously, they won’t all be right.
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 1:25 pm
What all of these commentators fail to mention is the rise of socislism in New Zealand. The state has removed the need to be self-reliant. Many in our society cannot care for themselves let alone thoose they are suppose to love.
When we have nanny state there to wipe our arses from birth till death why should we help ourselves. Many I beleive are aware of this but refuse to except it as it goes against their political ideology.
P.S This stupid woman called Cindy Kiro should be sacked what a total waste of space, to think we pay for the shit that comes out of her office. I’m sure the killer of these twins would have stop their evil doings if section 59 was repealed, GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK !!!!!!!.
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 1:27 pm
All I will say is this – At night I hold my 2 month old daughter in my arms and hope that I am not holding her to tight, hoping I clumsily don’t hurt her, and cherish every moment.
There is no cultural or animal defence for these “ROCK APES”, irrelevant of what colour their skin is or what country they are born in!
NO EXCUSE
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 1:27 pm
Our social policies which we spend billions on to help families like these are plainly NOT working. Why is it that crime statistics, child abuse statistics, truancy statistics all have welfare beneficiary the common thread. Paying people to lead disfunctional lives has got to end. Not setting up committees, not spending more welfare money. God knows under this Labour Government welfarism has reached its peak.
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 1:30 pm
side show bob: don’t fall into the same trap as the left: the rise of socialism in NZ, while lamentable, has nothing whatever to do with these killings, anymore than “poverty” has — but you are 100% right that people like Cindy Kiro should be sacked (and hung, drawn and quartered).
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 1:40 pm
The Americanisation of our culture is correct. I think that’s why there are so many people who seem genuinely surprised that this case hasn’t been solved yet. If this case were on CSI, it would have been resolved in less than an hour.
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 1:40 pm
The Americanisation of our culture is correct. I think that’s why there are so many people who seem genuinely surprised that this case hasn’t been solved yet. If this case were on CSI, it would have been resolved in less than an hour.
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 1:41 pm
tim b: You are right when you say “our social policies which we spend billions on to help families like these are plainly NOT working” but do not let these people off by saying welfarism is to blame for what has happened here. If welfare was twice as generous or half as generous as it – or didn’t exist at all – evil people like these would still kill their kids. And they must be held responsible, not Helen Clark (in this instance).
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 1:50 pm
It is my view that the public outrage and hysteria in this matter is in part, being fuelled by the conduct of the police. Why have they not followed their rigid, crime-scene protocols in investigating this matter?
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 1:55 pm
What all of these commentators fail to mention is the rise of socislism in New Zealand . . . When we have nanny state there to wipe our arses from birth till death why should we help ourselves.
Yes – I’m sure our society would be a much safer and better place if our deranged murderous drunken losers had no legal way to feed and clothe themselves.
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 2:01 pm
Given on this site and elswhere there is a consistent view that the present model isnt working the next question is what to do about it.Can individuals united in a desire for change effect that change and if so how.I fear the so called cross party thing will become another talk feast designed to placate we the dumb citizerns until the next news item takes our interest.Can enough good citizerns agree on a few changes that they want to see and then pressure the pollies (after all thats all they understand)
Why not set the pollies a few KPIs to achieve over a period and hold their feet to the fire.
The trick is to avoid letting the pollies divide and rule us which is what they do now They say Oh you lot cant agree what you want. Well it seems clear what we dont want is more baby deaths so lets look at the stats that have been trotted out and start with a challenge to them.
Let say we take the lowest current ethnic death rate per 100000 and tell the pollies this is the KPI to achieve for all groups by 2009.They get no more funding than at present What they have to do is get smarter policies.
Or we can do nothing and then wonder why nothing changes
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 2:12 pm
Until New Zealanders abandon their collective prelidiction for light thinking, self-realisation, and a “doesn’t affect me” ethos, we will continue to get more of what we are getting. Of course, such a cultural shift would require the death of pride, and the rebirth of humility.
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 2:14 pm
Here’s what really narks me off about Minto: Abstract collective nouns can’t kill children. And I’ve no idea where the frack he lives, but it repulses me to hear the suggestion that being poor, or having too much melanin in your skin, somehow dooms you to abuse your children. It not only has the ugly stench of middle-class white liberal racism, but condescending to those in my own whanau who’ve hauled the lead to put their children first and make sure they don’t suffer for their mistakes. I’d also wonder if the noble savage romaticising of disaffected urban Maori who’d be all right if they just “got in touch with their roots” needs a reality check as well.
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 2:20 pm
“What all of these commentators fail to mention is the rise of socislism in New Zealand.”
…smiles politely, whistles under breath, avoids eye contact…
“Why have they not followed their rigid, crime-scene protocols in investigating this matter?”
You watch too much American TV. This one cancelled out by:
“The Americanisation of our culture is correct. I think that’s why there are so many people who seem genuinely surprised that this case hasn’t been solved yet. If this case were on CSI, it would have been resolved in less than an hour.”
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 2:21 pm
Yes lets all band together and just keep feeding and watering the animals so they dont venture from too far from their cage looking for drugs n piss and hourly fix of whatever.
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 2:23 pm
Jeez I hope gd doesn’t run a business. KPI’s for a low ethnic death rate??? Does this mean deaths at a rate below the KPI are acceptable?
This is a tragic situation, and I hope the person/people responsible go down for it hard. But does it really justify a) the bays for blood for the family (some who may not be involved or know anything at all), the Police and CYFS? and b) the ridiculous assertions that this is about; being on welfare, being maori, not being christian enough and/or being too socialist (NZ is only socialist in the grubby fantasies of the disaffected ‘wingers). I can almost see the people in the media and the bloggersphere waiting for these things to happen so they can go out in public and wail about personal responsibility and bemoan the breakdown of society. Get a life – this is a tragic incident, not some opportunity for moral exhibitionism.
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 2:51 pm
So whats wrong with that?…hat the Kahui family are not legally obliged to co-operate with the Police.
So are we saying confessions with a stun gun might get them singing? Or better still, Bring in I.P. with his noose, hang’em High and sort the mess out afterwards.
So we have the Kahui’s unable to use the law like the rest of us?
llew, you say…. “I’ve long wondered if it’s part of the “americanisation” process that seems to be happening in some parts of the world”
Dream on llew, Most States & Counties of the US are very conservative, you can’t buy liqour, booze, or shop or drink booze on Sunday, even DPF would be heading out of town.
It seems if anything the charge would be man slaughter at the max, but if the Family were so far out of it I doubt they could jail any of them, tragic but thats how it goes.
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 2:59 pm
The officer in charge of the inquiry, Detective Senior Sergeant John Tims, was quoted in the Herald today: “Our concern at the moment is to make someone responsible for inflicting the injuries on Cru and Chris.”
I would have thought that Mr Tims’ main concern was to find the truth. Apparently not.
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 2:59 pm
The officer in charge of the inquiry, Detective Senior Sergeant John Tims, was quoted in the Herald today: “Our concern at the moment is to make someone responsible for inflicting the injuries on Cru and Chris.”
I would have thought that Mr Tims’ main concern was to find the truth. Apparently not.
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 3:11 pm
jono The KPI I referred to was a first step Of course the end game must be zero deaths but if you know anything about business then you know that to succeed you need to take one step at a time.You would also know that to set employees(the pollies) clearly impossible and unrealistic targets is to invite failure Your failure.
Vote:What you have to ask yourself Is doing nothing an acceptable response because thats the impression I get from you That like Pontious Pilate you are wiping your hands shrugging your shoulders and saying Hard cheese.Well some of us dont want to just sit on the sideline and watch the game We want to be part of the solution hence my suggestion.
However Im a realist who knows one or two people cant fix this problem alone.
June 28th, 2006 at 3:14 pm
“llew, you say…. “I’ve long wondered if it’s part of the “americanisation” process that seems to be happening in some parts of the world”
Dream on llew, Most States & Counties of the US are very conservative, you can’t buy liqour, booze, or shop or drink booze on Sunday, even DPF would be heading out of town.”
Maybe… that’s why I qualified that statement, did you read that bit?
Anyway, you may be right. American TV comes from a less conservative state & may not be representative of the rest of the country. Well, I realise that’s stating the obvious… hopefully.
But I was specifically thinking of the propensity to litigate at the drop of a hat. Sue & make McDonalds liable for me slipping and injuring myself on the diet coke that I myself spilled… (which may or may not be an apocryphal case anyway, but you get my drift.)
I’m not saying that America is responsible for this lack of personal responsibility (but I was saying I have wondered), just that TV exposes it to us & the TV largely comes from America.
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 3:17 pm
Dim, “Yes – I’m sure our society would be a much safer and better place if our deranged murderous drunken losers had no legal way to feed and clothe themselves.” Wouln’t a legal way be to get a job which the, y’know, pays for food and clothing? Or is that just crazy talk?
As for Minto, the Red Squad clearly didn’t whack him enough back in ’81.
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 3:19 pm
I have an alternate theory for how the twins died as well.
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 3:31 pm
And there folks is the Cadmus/Winston First view of the issue. Obstruct, decline, conspire, lie, play the race card … its all quite legit.
Well its not. This family have stepped outside the norms of decent society to the point where they have been virtually disowned by the whole country.
My concern though is that the whole thing has becomer such a media circus that any defence lawyer would be rubbing his/her hands with glee.
Guess they could argue the only place where they would receive a ‘fair’ trial might be Pitcairn.
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 3:31 pm
“Wouln’t a legal way be to get a job which the, y’know, pays for food and clothing? Or is that just crazy talk?”
No, this isn’t.
“As for Minto, the Red Squad clearly didn’t whack him enough back in ’81.”
Yes, this is. Moonbat.
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 3:35 pm
gd – its not a bout sitting back not doing anything, besides things are being done. Its about our reaction to it, and, as you noted, chances are people will move on to the next thing to beat their chests and wring their hands about. None of us here (99% sure) know what has actually happened, but that doesn’t stop talk of the family as scum, and that it is a maori thing (and then the social tories coming out with this theory that Pacific Peoples have lower rates ’cause they are good church goers – crap, they have high rates of domestic violence also).
And now its got so ludicrous that Loopy Lucyna is trying to suggest that it could be linked to vaccines…
Maybe we need to focus on the real issues here; these particular deaths, child abuse and domestic violence (although too many here that wail about child abuse believe domestic violence isn’t an issue – they are two parts of the same issue, family violence), poverty, cultural attitudes to violence etc.
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 3:59 pm
The murdered twins are victims of the power driven socialists, who have created an underclass of dependents in order to maintain their grip on political power. Do away with socialism, stop isolating people from reality and cushioning them from responsibility and such events as the death of the twins will accordingly diminish. Stop seeking political power at any cost. The killers of the twins were sitting in a government provided house receiving thousands of dollars a week from the government (they and other socialists elected) for doing nothing and were happy to live in a cycle of drugs and dependency. Take this family away from socialism, take it somewhere where they are not led into a trap by power driven socialists like Helen Klark, take them somewhere where the message is you are responsible for your own actions, and they will prosper, and if that had been done, and they had not been sitting there in Mangere the unrealising victims of Helen Klark’s obsessive greed for political power, the dupes of Labour’s vote buying social strategies, fooled by handouts that are really systematic socially corrosive poison, the twins would be alive today.
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 4:02 pm
Fair enough jono I accept your comments about not sitting back.I guess mine and others comments reflect our utter frustration at what has occurred and in my case the attempts by some to move the responsibility.It easy to make excuses for the behaviour and deflect from the basics. Those babies had a right to a good safe life.Instead all I heard was the rights of the family.Unless I and other indiviuals are given the responsibility and the attendent authority to go and fix the problem there isnt a hell of a lot I can do and thats another frustration.Common sense would surely suggest that to leave children in an unsafe environment is unacceptable.But it happens and when the inevitable happens those in charge shrug their shoulders mumble about how its all societies fault and shuffle off. Good grief I wish I could do that when the OSH inspector came calling me and balled me out because one of the ladders wasnt in the register.That was my fault and my responsibility.But we have a political class ( all parties) who refuse to take responsibility and as the fish rots from the head so citizerns that their lead from what they observe. This terrible event is part of a much better problem we face.A need for a fundemental paradigm shift away from making excuses to taking responsibility.Its about growing up from being immature to mature.
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 4:08 pm
Jono, if you had actually read and understood the theory, it’s not just linked to vaccines – it’s a combination of factors. The doctor who I quote used his knowledge of the condition to get the death rate of aboriginal babies from every second baby, to none during the eight years he was in charge.
It’s only loopy to disregard out of hand what you don’t understand.
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 4:17 pm
jono / jd – sitting back and doing nothing is exactly what we should do. Any political “cure” to this sort of thing will be a waste of time or possible make things worse. It is a matter for the police and the courts. It is not a “social” problem at all. It is a problem about a handful of scum.
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 4:23 pm
Nice to see that everyone is over their reluctance to play politics with this tragedy…
Facts, who needs them.
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 4:53 pm
Redbaiter you cunt. If you can’t think coherently, at least try to write coherently. i can’t enjoy the full impact of your lunacy when your grammar is so appalling
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 4:55 pm
Redbaiter you cunt. If you can’t think coherently, at least try to write coherently. i can’t enjoy the full impact of your lunacy when your grammar is so appalling
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 5:03 pm
In case you hadn’t noticed, NZ had “Socialist” (you use that word like it’s an insult) governments from 1935, almost without interruption, until 1984, and a funny mix of socialism, old liberalism and new liberalism ever since (I don’t really consider conservatism a political philosophy, more a way of life) so pinning this on “socialists” doesn’t wash. Still, if it makes you feel better to blame the reds under the bed (or on the dole) then fine.
In defence of Minto, Sharples, etc etc…trying to find explanations is not the same as finding excuses.
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 5:13 pm
Sonic,
come home, we miss you…
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 6:47 pm
Ross Miller you say….And there folks is the Cadmus/Winston First view of the issue. Obstruct, decline, conspire, lie, play the race card … its all quite legit.
How Wrong you are!
I speak for myself no one else. As the Ross below said I want facts not lynch mob justice that the likes of you want
As another “Ross’ said….
“The officer in charge of the inquiry, Detective Senior Sergeant John Tims, was quoted in the Herald today: “Our concern at the moment is to make someone responsible for inflicting the injuries on Cru and Chris.”
I would have thought that Mr Tims’ main concern was to find the truth. Apparently not.”
Get the facts not pin it on a likely candidate. The answer to this will take time. As the Police said give us time.
Vote:Again you can work it out if the Kahui’s were out of their heads that day/Night who can be held responsible? At the most manslaughter. I doubt it will even get to that. Tragic but thats life.
June 28th, 2006 at 6:56 pm
What I find disturbing is Cindy Kiro calling for a “plan for every child” and calling for an “end to blame”.
What planet is she on? What planet are the post-modern subjectivist apologists for child abuse when it is not the abuser’s fault for what is done? The very same people who “understand” why relatively well off British born young Muslims blew themselves up in London last year. This is not a matter of socialism vs family values – it is a matter of attributing fault where fault is due, and the incentives being to NOT have people like this be parents.
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 8:08 pm
Yes there is no excuse and yes those responsible have to be brought to justice but what might that justice be? To everyone who looks down on these people and spits venom seeking some sort of the
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 8:32 pm
I wrote: I’m sure our society would be a much safer and better place if our deranged murderous drunken losers had no legal way to feed and clothe themselves.
Mark replied: Wouln’t a legal way be to get a job which the, y’know, pays for food and clothing? Or is that just crazy talk?
If you’ve got a surefire way to encourage ‘deranged, murderous drunken losers’ to get jobs and become stand-up members of society then shout it from the rooftops. If not, then yeah – it is just crazy talk.
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 8:39 pm
Maybe it would help in the first instance just to stop buying drugs and alcohol for them with taxpayer money Danyl. Oh hang on, that wouldn’t work, they might not vote Labour again..
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 8:51 pm
“Maybe it would help in the first instance just to stop buying drugs and alcohol for them with taxpayer money Danyl. Oh hang on, that wouldn’t work, they might not vote Labour again..”
This is exactly the left’s fundamental flaw. It’s in the present government’s interest to keep the New Zealand population as poor as possible. Why? Because the more money people have in-hand, the more of it they will want to keep for themselves- hence they will most likely vote for a right-wing government who is more likely to offer tax relief.
Why redistribute working people’s money back to them in the form of WFF rather than offering tax relief? For exactly the same reason.
Redbaiter is right. There is a plan to maintain control using the above devices. Just like how Sweden’s socialist government has had control for nearly 60 years by making the population dependent on handouts and enormous government spending. The result? Unofficial unemployment figures nudging 25% and the world’s highest tax rates.
Luckily for us, Helen want’s to emulate it.
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 9:17 pm
On the politics of the debate, rather than the crime matter.
“Maori” have made economic progress in the last 6 years as unemployment declined. Minto is referring to the 1986-1991 period of rising Maori unemployment, a status too many Maori continued in during the 1990′s.
Labour did not reverse benefit cuts of 1991, so those Maori who remain on benefits are in some poverty. Given the relative rise of power prices to general CPI rises, the unemployed are worse off than in the 1990′s (WFF/In Work, is not for them).
This is why some people are living in groups – especially with rising house purchase prices and related rents.
The issue for families in this environment is self pride. Many Maori have made progress, but not all waka. This is something for iwi to consider, about how they operate in support of those the Pakeha state is supporting.
Some will talk of the role of religion and a more functional Polynesian family life here. However Maori in Oz do well enough – showing those who migrate have aspiration (including for their children).
The local problem is cultural (adjustment of a tribal warrior’s into family home unit urban life, requiring role models and networking) and sociological. It’s in common with dispossessed indigenous peoples everywhere. A connection with relative economic disadvantage of other ethnic group minorities. It’s reflected in crime (the FBI Behavioural Science Unit) statistics everywhere.
Those who oppose “socialism” and preference for some over others, lament any targeted help to resolve this. Instead they exploit these minority groups to gain mainstream support for various reforms to manage the disadvantaged minority groups. Such as expansion of prisons, state surveillance of the home life of those on welfare (work for the dole, “Job Club”, term limit welfare and of course Beneficiary Codes/arrival of faith based providers offering social services management of welfare homes/families. Effectively displacing socialist welfare with a “ghettoisation” of those apart from the mainstream (European heritage) culture.
One thing we need to do, is prevent discrimination based on employment, marital and religious status, serving as a cover for the management of poor ethnic group under classes (a few token Europeans exampled to show it’s because we care about all citizens).
If you care, provide them with jobs and or assistance so they can get into jobs. This rather than import workers who cannot vote (the USA Hispanic option) here. If targeted assistance to the unemployed leading some Maori families is required, then do it. Positve discrimination is better than negative profiling.
PS On the OECD comparison – we do OK, given our lower incomes (exaccerbated by an indigenous people with too much of an ethnic people underclass status) We can do better.
Vote:June 28th, 2006 at 10:41 pm
Perhaps, David, you should rethink your comments regarding John Minto’s own comments. Your points about increases in Maori income are idiotic, entirely due to the fact that you only look at the percentage increase, and don’t tell us what the baseline figures are.
Vote:June 29th, 2006 at 2:27 am
Oliver the only idicy here comes from you. Minto made a statement which was false and easy to refute – which I did. His statement was about relative movements not absolutes.
Vote:June 29th, 2006 at 7:46 am
PabloR, you must be the most hilarious contributer so far on this subject. You posted the following statement.
“Redbaiter you cunt. If you can’t think coherently, at least try to write coherently. i can’t enjoy the full impact of your lunacy when your grammar is so appalling”
1. Your first sentence has no verb;
2. Your third sentence doesn’t start with a capital letter; and
3. Your final sentence doesn’t have a full-stop.
Perhaps you should look at your own literary skills before you dump on someone else.
Vote:June 29th, 2006 at 7:53 am
So what if Maori income levels increased by 20-odd percent? What was their real income in the first place? Those figures don’t give much insight. I fully agree with Minto’s comments.
Vote:SPC: that was one of the best posts I’ve read on this topic.
June 29th, 2006 at 8:58 am
From the Herald “Counties Manukau’s police district commander said in his district the percentage of family violence emergency calls had doubled in the past four years. They accounted for 21 per cent of all 111 calls in 2001 and 42 per cent in 2005.”
Remember “Closing The Gaps”? About five or six years ago this was Labour’s flagship race based handout program. So what’s the outcome as implied by the comments of the Counties Manakau Police Commander? A doubling of calls to Police regarding family violence. Welfarism exacerbates social problems, It does not solve them. Everybody knows this. even the charlatans in the Labour party. Do they care that they’re pushing policies which destroy families and potentially whole races of people? No they don’t because no matter what the real outcome, these programs give Labour and Helen Klark the power that is their over-riding objective. Here’s the guts. Labour and Helen Klark have used the Maori as a stepping stone to political power. Labour do not care what destruction their failed and discredited social policies bring upon the Maori because in the end, Helen Klark and her acolytes have the power that is their obsession. Don’t believe it. here’s a simple question. Why don’t they liaise with Alan Duff? Because he does not buy into the myth that socialism and welfarism are the answer. The Labour Party will not “help” (the left’s euphemism for socially destructive handouts) unless you help them consolidate their greedy grip on political power.
Vote:June 29th, 2006 at 9:24 am
I think Minto’s comments about low incomes of Maori is correct (but I don’t agree with his linking of that fact with abuse). I recall inflation was in double digits during much (if not all) of the 80s and then there was GST, which impacted more heavily on the low paid than the high paid. Given that Maori have been, and still are, over-represented among the low paid, it’s fair to say that the economic experiment of Roger Douglas and Co was generally not beneficial to Maori.
Vote:June 29th, 2006 at 9:25 am
I think Minto’s comments about low incomes of Maori is correct (but I don’t agree with his linking of that fact with abuse). I recall inflation was in double digits during much (if not all) of the 80s and then there was GST, which impacted more heavily on the low paid than the high paid. Given that Maori have been, and still are, over-represented among the low paid, it’s fair to say that the economic experiment of Roger Douglas and Co was generally not beneficial to Maori.
Vote:June 29th, 2006 at 9:44 am
The reality is you cant help people who dont want help. Socialists in particular but also centre and centre right pollies know they cant implement the policies that would reduce the size of this problem as it would bring an outcry from the usual suspects.So they pretend to fix it by throwing ever increasing amounts of money at it and setting up a plethora of agencies all well meaning but impotent. The easiest thing for the middle and well off is to ignore the problem.Lets face it most of the problem families are confined to ghettos in our cities that we dont have to drive through so its easy to turn a blind eye. As long as we contain them and give them enough money to feed their various habits and they dont come raping and pillaging us in our homes then why the hell worry about it.
On the other hand maybe just maybe some feel an ethically and moral obligation to speak up and demand that the government implement positive policies to first try and educate these people to a better life style and then if they cant or wont change to implement policies that minimise the harm they can cause to others including any future gernerations. But maybe that too much like common sense for some
Vote:June 29th, 2006 at 12:21 pm
This is a letter that I sent to the House of Representatives last night, regarding the cross party talks on family violence, motivated by the death of the Kahui twins.
I imagine you share the shock and grief of the nation, with the news of two
more baby boys being killed by family.
The news must be of particular concern to you as one of our nation’s
leaders, in the predicament of being held accountable for why such high
levels of family violence are still occurring in our communities.
The problem of family violence has not been solved in our communities,
because the people who seem to need the help the most, slip by without
being noticed, until it is too late. Social workers have done their best
to diagnose and treat families at risk, with referrals to a wide variety of
programmes designed to help.
However, the problem persists. Many programmes strike at the leaves,
instead of the root of the problem.
It is possible to eliminate family violence, with an inside out approach,
that has stood the test of time, based on hard facts of scientific inquiry,
combined with spiritual truths.
It is important for you to be informed about the solution to the problems
associated with families at risk, which has proven successful in New
Zealand since 1998.
Would you be so kind as to visit the website
http://www.family-building-centres.org
If you agree with what you see, can you please take the time to respond?
Thank you.
I was happy to hear of party politics being put aside, on this issue, so
that the House of Representatives can participate in compassionate
dialogue, towards a united stand. I do hope that Family Building Centres
will be part of that discussion.
Regardless of what your personal beliefs are, as a public servant you need
to be plumping for a system that will lead people into a better life.
The Family Building Centre philosophy pushes one towards a better life, and
is consistent with historical and contemporary best practice.
Yours truly,
Annebeth Riles Broad
(Annebeth has been described as, “a woman who can see every side of the
Vote:argument, and the merits, and disadvantages of the present system… a
restless intellectual who cares deeply for the children and families of
this nation.”)
June 29th, 2006 at 12:35 pm
This is a letter that I sent to the House of Representatives last night, regarding the cross party talks on family violence, motivated by the death of the Kahui twins.
I imagine you share the shock and grief of the nation, with the news of two
more baby boys being killed by family.
The news must be of particular concern to you as one of our nation’s
leaders, in the predicament of being held accountable for why such high
levels of family violence are still occurring in our communities.
The problem of family violence has not been solved in our communities,
because the people who seem to need the help the most, slip by without
being noticed, until it is too late. Social workers have done their best
to diagnose and treat families at risk, with referrals to a wide variety of
programmes designed to help.
However, the problem persists. Many programmes strike at the leaves,
instead of the root of the problem.
It is possible to eliminate family violence, with an inside out approach,
that has stood the test of time, based on hard facts of scientific inquiry,
combined with spiritual truths.
It is important for you to be informed about the solution to the problems
associated with families at risk, which has proven successful in New
Zealand since 1998.
Would you be so kind as to visit the website
http://www.family-building-centres.org
If you agree with what you see, can you please take the time to respond?
Thank you.
I was happy to hear of party politics being put aside, on this issue, so
that the House of Representatives can participate in compassionate
dialogue, towards a united stand. I do hope that Family Building Centres
will be part of that discussion.
Regardless of what your personal beliefs are, as a public servant you need
to be plumping for a system that will lead people into a better life.
The Family Building Centre philosophy pushes one towards a better life, and
is consistent with historical and contemporary best practice.
Yours truly,
Annebeth Riles Broad
(Annebeth has been described as, “a woman who can see every side of the
Vote:argument, and the merits, and disadvantages of the present system… a
restless intellectual who cares deeply for the children and families of
this nation.”)
June 29th, 2006 at 1:14 pm
DPF sez: “Perhaps CYPFS should not just be reactive to complaints, but be funded so it can be pro-active to identify at risk families such as this one, and intervene before it it too late? Maybe one needs agencies to share data to identify “profiles” such as over-crowded homes or more than x number of people on a benefit.”
We can all agree that this would be a Good Thing when looking at a situation like the current one.
The problem however with preventive measures is that in preventing a bad outcome [like the death of a child] they also undermine their own justification for action.
If a Govt agency takes someones kids away, there are plenty of people who will jump up and scream about the “nanny state” that took away someones kids for “no reason at all”, and nobody can point to the prevented death of the child as justification, because nobody can say for certain that the child would be dead but for that intervention.
Vote:June 30th, 2006 at 12:36 pm
If the family involved wasn’t Maori the situation would be totally different. The usual do-gooder Govt agencies plus the cops would have been all over the family, people would have been arrested without delay, the only blame would have been attached to the family and the comments on this blog would be a fraction of the existing number.
At the risk of a racist tag, why are Maori different? Why is it societies fault when Maori are involved?
Instead of spending time and resources wailing and crying at the Tangi – why not put the same effort into caring for the young and avoiding the Tangi altogether.
Vote:July 2nd, 2006 at 4:01 pm
One thing some PI’s have that we wouldn’t want to see in wider NZ is cultural violence based on the idea that the husband “owns” his wife and children, and can treat them effectively as chattels.
Vote:July 4th, 2006 at 10:03 am
The more time goes on the “madder” I become. This is just not on, this family need to put forward this mongrel, end it all. It’s a total shame on all Maori, good and bad. Yeh, sure it happens to all cultures, races, and woteva. But, the point is it is Maori concerned at this time, sure the death of the twins is paramount at this stage, but right now I am concerned as others are about this so called “stonewalling”. I would like to get hold of this tight 12 and throw them away for their actions. Right now I would not like to be bearing the names, “King” or “Kahui”. I feel sorry for the members of extended whanau, who I’m sure would not be agreeing to this crap. The problem lies in young Maori having children, with no skills in parenting, they have kids young and if they are usually giving them off to parents or even grandparents to look after. Young Maori, male and female need to abstain from giving birth to children who they will not care for properly and “get a life” of their own before having kids. When your young you need to enjoy your lives, live free, be free.
I talk from experience as a mother and grandmother, I to was only 17, no skills, couldn’t even cook an egg. But I had whanau support, a good partner and we struggled, had six kids, we were not well off, far from it, lived in HNZ home. We kept all ours kids secure, fed and we loved them, but that was than and now is now. Whanau are less likely to be supportive as the used to be, as they to struggle to keep their heads above water. So you young Maori people out there, take heed to whats happening, keep your legs shut, or use contraception.
Kia Kaha
Ann
Vote:July 5th, 2006 at 12:08 pm
Enough is enough – when will we learn to focus on the rights of the victims and make the offenders take responsibility? The cases of the Kahui family and the waste of space who deliberately dropped a concrete block for kicks, murdering an innocent 20 year old who had his whole life before him infuriate me. If we don’t demonstrate that doing the serious crime means doing serious time then this sort of behaviour will escalate and god knows where we will end up with teens bashing innocent people for ‘fun’. Unfortunately the media has made us desensitised to violence and criminals who choose to take someone else’s life should be made to face the consequences of their actions. The Sensible Sentencing Trust has a hard slog ahead and i for one am disgusted with the over politically correct government – Let’s all feel safe and put a STOP to accepting excuses for these morons who show no compassion or remorse – it’s never been shown them and so the cycle continues.
Vote:July 19th, 2006 at 6:23 am
I have a 4yr old boy and love him to bits, even thru the tantrums etc, I could not even begin to imagine life without him, what are these people thinking? they obviously dont have human blood running thru their veins. I have been trying for 2yrs to get pregnant again to the point my husband and I looked at adoption, we went to a meeting where there were at least 100 couples desperate to have a child, this was only one of many meetings held every year all over the country, I am sure any number of these people would have taken these lovely babies into their homes and loved and cared for them. That for me is the tradgedy, these kids could have had a life and a good one if their parents and family gave a shit. Why dont we do like other european countries and only have a benefit for a total of 2yrs of your life, surely that would get people off their arses, off the piss and off to work, to create a better life for themselves and their family. I am shocked and discusted that I live in the same city as these pigs.
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