Bob the Builder
August 27th, 2006 at 11:16 am by David FarrarThe core of what Bob Clarkson has said about burqas and homosexuality is not particularly controversial, but the way he has expressed it is, I would say, regrettable.
The essence of what Clarkson has said is that burqa wearing (which is not a mainstream Islam practice, but something enforced by only a very small faction) is not something he likes in NZ, and that he also disapproves of homosexuality but tolerates it.
These are views probably shared by many NZers.
However the way Bob has expressed his views is regrettable. Telling people to go home is not a particularly useful way to have a (important) debate on religious tolerance.
And in terms of homosexuality, if two men are holding hands in public, that’s just being affectionatte like any other couple – it’s not promoting homosexuality anymore than me holding my girlfriend’s hand in public is promoting heterosexuality.
Everyone has the right to disapprove of various behaviours. And Bob is right that tolerance is what is expected, not approval. But then why the need to state your disapproval in public? All it does is create an issue, where there should be none.
Tags: National
August 27th, 2006 at 12:32 pm
Go for it Bob, we need more men like you in parliament, and not the limp wristed pussies, cowed by political correctness and supplicating themselves to Stalinist style attempts to control speech and thought that presently prevail. Bob for PM.
Vote:August 27th, 2006 at 12:32 pm
Go for it Bob, we need more men like you in parliament, and not the limp wristed pussies, cowed by political correctness and supplicating themselves to Stalinist style attempts to control speech and thought that presently prevail. Bob for PM.
Vote:August 27th, 2006 at 1:03 pm
Clarkson is on the money. I’d have a hole in my head as quick as you can say (Ohhh, how un-PC)in a strict Islamic country if I insisted it was my right to drink beer in public.
Vote:August 27th, 2006 at 1:22 pm
I find it amusing that ‘Stalinist’ is “Redbaiter”‘s knee-jerk insult – given that Mr. BAter, like Stalin himself, was very fond of anonymous informers.
Vote:August 27th, 2006 at 2:01 pm
Everyone has the right to disapprove, but Clarkson’s comments go beyond even ignorant and bigoted disapproval to rejecting the idea of liberal tolerance itself. The explicit message in his comments about crosses on clocktowers, burqas and homosexuals is that people must be Just Like Him in public, and that the “mainstream” is entitled to inflict and enforce itself on others. I strongly suspect he’d be singing a different tune if it was a crescent on top of that tower, or low-riding stubbies and builder’s butt people wanted to ban – but part of his problem seems to be a complete inability to imagine that things might be different or that the shoe could possibly be on the other foot.
The liberal compromise exists so that we can all get on with our lives. If Clarkson wants to be able to dress how he likes, then he has to extend that same right to others. Ditto religion, and ditto sex. Rejecting that principle invites state interference in everyone’s wardrobe, in everyone’s conscience, and in everyone’s bedroom. And that I think is simple intolerable.
Vote:August 27th, 2006 at 2:19 pm
As usual, the ponderous wordy hardly intelligible submissions of the left and the politically correct, expressing their outrage that someone should actually show contempt for the rules they consider it compulsory to abide by if you want to be part of their “progressive” society. Guess what muffins, we don’t want your society. We want freedom to speak and say and think what we want, without it being vetted and approved of or not approved of by a self appointed panel of weasely little Stalinist do gooders.
Vote:August 27th, 2006 at 2:50 pm
The Tauranga MP, a non-practising Presbyterian, insisted that he was tolerant of all religions.
“I truly believe what the Bible says, believe it or not, which says that my word will be spread in many ways.”
I’d love to know which translation of The Bible he found that in!!!
Vote:August 27th, 2006 at 3:06 pm
It is refreshing to hear some-one state exactly where they stand on an issue, and I largely agree with him, but that doesn’t matter,what does matter is whether the mainstream voters of Tauranga agree with him and if so then he is doing the job they sent him down there to do.
Vote:August 27th, 2006 at 3:19 pm
Too right there I/S.
Redbaiter, I suggest you do some reading on liberal tolerance. You confuse standing up for freedom of speech for freedom of speech itself. Clarkson’s right to say what he did is uncontroversial, but his attack on liberalism has justly come under strong criticism.
Clarkson is akin to those radical ‘Islamic types’ he rallies against. Because we live in a free society, we tolerate and accept the freedom of Clarkson and others to express their illiberal views. Not to do so would undermine tolerance itself. But make no mistake, Clarkson and his compatriots are no friends of liberalism (just like radical religious zealots). He wants a society where everyone does as he thinks individuals should do. That such an attack on liberalism receive criticism is surely not surprising, nor unjust. To fight illiberal ideas with reasoned and logical arguments, is to defend liberalism without undermining the liberal tolerance principle itself.
Clarkson can say what he wants, but rational individuals will defend a fair and tolerant society. We won’t force anyone to shut up, that would undermine our own cause, but we will argue our case for tolerance vigourously.
Your criticism Redbaiter is hence illinformed.
Vote:August 27th, 2006 at 3:23 pm
Great was the outcry when Enoch Powell made his (in)famous ‘Rivers of Blood’ speech.
Wonder if their would be such an outcry in the UK today and what can we learn from the UK experience?
Vote:August 27th, 2006 at 3:30 pm
It is of course Clarkson’s right to express his views (as it is also the right of muslim women to wear burqas if they so wish)afterall we do like to consider ourselves a free and open country.
However I really don’t think this is in National’s best interest as it takes them away from their message of the last few weeks which has been to hammer labour over it pledge card spending. This outburst also confirms my suspision that Clarkson will join Brian Connell (Spelling???)as another political irrelevancy. Which I find dissapointing given all the good things Clarkson has done for Speedway in NZ.
Vote:August 27th, 2006 at 4:17 pm
I know what is necessary to know about so called “liberal tolerance”. This is the state of being whereby NZ universities enforce strict speech codes that are really attempts to control thought. This is where a journalist or a teacher or anybody can be fired from their job just for using the wrong word in relation to sex or race. This is where an employer can be taken to court and fined merely for having a ‘girlie’ style calendar hanging on his wall. This is where an applicant can be prohibited from working in the public service unless they proscribe to a vague set of concepts termed the “principles of the Treaty of Waitangi”. Don’t talk to me about your pseudo liberalism. Since returning to this country, I have noticed that the most stand out feature is what a Stalinist hole it has become as a result of the influence of those who term themselves liberals. They are authoritarians posing as liberals, and they have forced a conformity of thought upon NZ that I find nauseating.
They seek not to engage in a discussion of competing ideas but rather to exclude their opponents from the debate by branding them as members of unacceptable groups. (see phillipjohn’s comments above for a good example- Nats = Nazis) Citizens concerned about immigration become branded as bigots. Christians who fail to concede that homosexuality is ‘normal’ are branded homphobes. Men who object to wimmin being in combat are labelled sexist. Citizens who believe in the right to bear arms are called “gun nuts”.
The pseudo-liberals that control NZ society today closely resemble the professional communist. They preach tolerance while practicing intolerance. They condemn bigotry while being a bigot. They claim to be for open debate as they try so hard to silence their opponents. They say they are for religious tolerance whilst the routinely spit bile at Christians. They say they are for multiculturalism while viciously attacking European culture. These pseudo-liberals should be recognized for what they are- authoritarians, wearing a disguise. They are in reality the most dangerous enemies of any free society.
The left, under the guise of “liberalism”, has conducted a lengthy assault on free speech and free thought, to the extent where they now almost completely control NZ culture. Their Soviet strategy is designed to permit the most vicious attacks on individual liberty and the personal destruction of anyone who dares to challenge their social ascendancy. Let’s see what they do to Bob Clarkson.
Vote:August 27th, 2006 at 4:37 pm
I think you’re overstating things a touch, Redbaiter, but certainly much of the left is astoundingly hypocritical about the freedoms they purport to support: Certainly there is far more sympathy for Islam on the left than for the comparatively benign Christianity. There is also an astounding lack of courage in addressing human rights issues when they can’t blame the US.
Vote:August 27th, 2006 at 4:58 pm
Redbaiter – trolling is old hat. David made the point that nothing Clarkson said forwarded the debate in any useful sense. Much like your own rediculous contributions.
Personally, I don’t believe it’s ok to be homophobic or racist. You can prance around all you want about ‘free speech’, but just because I goosestep down queen street shouting ‘heil hitler’ in the name of free speech make it tasteful, or intelligent, or reasoned.
The only reason you immediately jump to the free speech argument is because you know that normal, tolerant, free thinking people see his true colours flying true and, dare I say it, blue. “What a brave man!” you say, as if that is some kind of defence. Well guess what, he doesn’t stand up for what most of us secretly think, because we don’t secretly think it.
Vote:August 27th, 2006 at 5:12 pm
There’s more proof I’m right. Because I express here views he/she disgrees with, the typically pseudo “liberal” Polemic labels me a “troll.” ..and I did not even come close to suggesting that what Bob has said is what everyone “secretly thinks”. In fact I doubt that would be true given the success of the left’s attempts to control culture. I admire Bob Clarkson, as I have said already, because he is uncowed by the politically correct dogmas held so dear by those who represent the repugnant politically correct status quo in Wellington.
Vote:August 27th, 2006 at 6:53 pm
Why – people of Tauranga – do you inflict this type of person on the rest of us (again)? Is that beautiful place now the redneck centre of NZ?
Vote:August 27th, 2006 at 7:19 pm
please don’t feed the trolls.
Vote:August 27th, 2006 at 7:37 pm
I/S and Susan, well said.
And if I’m correct, I/s has spoken out voicefully for Tim Selwyn also, so is hardly guilty of political selection when it comes to defending freedoms.
Redbaiter; try not splurting out garbage in the first line of your post, that way someone may actually read beyond the first line of your post.
And what is the with knee-jerk brain farts about ‘left’ and ‘right’ over every issue?
I’m sick of superstitious old men who want to impose ‘their’ way of life on everyone else, that goes for that old biggot Clarkson, and for Hubbard also.
Peace,
Vote:James Cairney.
August 27th, 2006 at 7:58 pm
Oh the ourtrage over Bob Clarkson.
Vote:He was even the P1 lead of the Christchruch Press yesterday.
Not bad considering he is not a Christchurch MP and neither were his comments made in Christchruch.
Perhaps the outraged muslim leader quoted is a Cantabrian.
Anyway, Bob was quite mild compared to Liarbour MP Ashouf Choudry who openly advocated the stoning of gays because that it is what is quoted in the Koran.
Remeber, he made his comments on tv.
So before the lefties pour scorn at Bob Clarkson, look in your own nest first.
And of course people would not brand muslims as potential terrorists if muslims gave up terrorism.
August 27th, 2006 at 7:59 pm
Oh the ourtrage over Bob Clarkson.
Vote:He was even the P1 lead of the Christchruch Press yesterday.
Not bad considering he is not a Christchurch MP and neither were his comments made in Christchruch.
Perhaps the outraged muslim leader quoted is a Cantabrian.
Anyway, Bob was quite mild compared to Liarbour MP Ashouf Choudry who openly advocated the stoning of gays because that it is what is quoted in the Koran.
Remeber, he made his comments on tv.
So before the lefties pour scorn at Bob Clarkson, look in your own nest first.
And of course people would not brand muslims as potential terrorists if muslims gave up terrorism.
August 27th, 2006 at 9:09 pm
Hey Redbaiter please explain ‘freedom’ to me. Does it include the freedom to wear what you want? Or the freedom to choose your own sexual orientation??
Vote:August 27th, 2006 at 9:22 pm
Go redbaiter you are so right, I wish I had the same skill as you to say how I feel. GO MAN, why can we not defend our country without been branded as rasicts. What pisses me off the most is we have people that have fled their own country’s fuck ups. Now they want us to respect them , no fucking way they have to prove it, they have to work for respect . Not walk down the main street of Dorkland upset that someone draw cartoons of their God prehaps they would like to hounuor freedom not the bullshit they are trying to push on to the rest of the country. But no doubt they vote for the criminals in power.
Vote:August 27th, 2006 at 10:22 pm
“There’s more proof I’m right. Because I express here views he/she disgrees with, the typically pseudo “liberal” Polemic labels me a “troll.”
Redbaiter – ah hem – your name is ‘Redbaiter’ – which, to the untrained eye – might indicate that you are fond of, err, baiting lefties. So yes, you are a troll. Although I wonder why you think I’m a lefty or liberal.
” ..and I did not even come close to suggesting that what Bob has said is what everyone “secretly thinks”.
No. David did in his original post: “These are views probably shared by many NZers.”
Side Show seems to be a stand-up example of one such person who, lacking the skill to obfuscate the issue with political paranoia, reveals the underlying theme of ignorance in this debate.
Vote:August 27th, 2006 at 11:28 pm
go back to Islam or Iraq
Seriously? This guy is a Member of Parliament! He’s suggesting that Islam is a place and he clearly has little grasp of the dynamic of the Islamic community in New Zealand and what ethnic groups are most likely to wear the burqa.
Fine, he’s welcome to whatever perceptions or prejudices he forms from his experiences, but if he’s going to come out and in the same breath tell women in the burqa that they shouldn’t be exercising their cultural practices in our liberal democracy and then claim to be tolerant of all religions, he would do well to come across as less of an ignorant anacronism more interested in mouthing off on his bigotry than taking the time to understand a bit more about what he’s so afraid of. I’d still disagree with him, but I’d find it much less offensive if he was able to make a rational statement regarding his position rather than fatuous crap like:
Even walking down the street, to a certain extent, how do we know there’s not a crook with a gun hiding under a burqa? Who’s under that gown
If women in the burqa are keeping Bob up at night he has fucked up perspective of what’s making our streets unsafe in New Zealand today.
The really depressing thing is that DPF is probably right in saying that Clarkson’s sentiment probably connects with a lot of New Zealanders, but I think it’s worse than that too. I think the lazy, ignorant reasoning underlying his comments are pretty prevalent as well.
Vote:August 28th, 2006 at 12:15 am
Ahh, nothing to see here folks, just more blatant human stupidity.
Vote:Why is anyone really surprised?
August 28th, 2006 at 7:02 am
Labour should send this guy a bunch of flowers. He’s reminded swing voters like me – and it’s gonna be a LONG LONG time before my vote swings back to Labour after their recent performance – why I chose not to vote National last year.
I’m sure all their reactionary racist dog-whistle rhetorhic delights the base and might attract a couple hundred New Zealand First and Destiny voters into Nationals camp, but doing so at the cost of (potentially) hundreds of thousands of moderate voters doesn’t seem like very smart politics to me.
Vote:August 28th, 2006 at 8:29 am
Danyl suggests Bob’s statements are part of a plan by National to attract NZF and Destiny voters. I know Danyl isn’t that stupid as to think this is part of a plan. It is clearly a case of an individual MP speaking his mind – that happens in a large Caucus.
And as someone pointed out Labour MP Ashraf Choudary did once condone stoning of gays outside NZ – was that an attempt by LKabour to appeal to Destiny voters also?
Vote:August 28th, 2006 at 9:33 am
“They seek not to engage in a discussion of competing ideas but rather to exclude their opponents from the debate by branding them as members of unacceptable groups”
Redbaiter describes his MO.
DPF, Clarkson’s words echo, at the street level, the “coded messages” Don Brash has been sending since Orewa. Really, you can’t distance yourself from them because it is National’ message right now.
Vote:August 28th, 2006 at 9:51 am
Noddy- Almost every comment on this subject from the liberal/ left proves my claim to be true.
Nats = Nazis
Clarkson = political irrelevancy
Clarkson/ Tauranga/ Redbaiter – Rednecks
Clarkson – Bigotted (sic) old man
Side Show Bob- ignorant
Redbaiter = Troll (don’t respond to him.. eek Noddy.. YOU DID..!!!
Vote:August 28th, 2006 at 10:18 am
I don’t see what the fuss is all about really. I’ve been getting “go home” messages rammed down my throat ever since I arrived here by politicians, whether NZFirst or Bob the Builder. I decided to stay until one of them managed to come up with a coherent argument in favour of my leaving. Still waiting….
Vote:August 28th, 2006 at 10:33 am
Not a big deal, just another small minded bigot.
However this did make me laugh.
“even small-scale displays of homosexuality, such as two men holding hands, made him feel strange
Vote:August 28th, 2006 at 10:43 am
Hmmm, perhaps strange, unfamiliar stirrings in the infamous Clarkson loins?
Vote:August 28th, 2006 at 10:57 am
Does bob want to ban nuns who are covered up as well, or is it just Muslim women who choose to be veiled he’s after?
Vote:August 28th, 2006 at 10:58 am
He also seems a little bit obsessed with gays “ramming it down his throat”
I wonder what “it” is?
Vote:August 28th, 2006 at 11:58 am
haha, Redbaiter – the day you respond to debate with an “idea” will be the proverbial cold one.
Vote:August 28th, 2006 at 12:29 pm
polemic – i wouldnt worry about redbaiter calling you a leftie or a liberal. Its common practice for (him/her?) to make angry, knee-jerk, baseless assumptions about someone because they dare to have a different opinion.
it could best be described thus
“he/she seeks not to engage in a discussion of competing ideas but rather to exclude their opponents from the debate by branding them as members of unacceptable groups.”
and redbaiter – grow a brain, form an argument.
Vote:August 28th, 2006 at 2:14 pm
All Redbaiter has done above is tell the plain truth, only some can’t seem to handle it.
The expression “politically correct” is an old Communist Party term.
Try to get hold of a copy of Bella Dodd’s “School of Darkness” if you want to understand how they used it and continue to use it (and don’t assume their ideas have gone away just because the CPSU has).
The politically correct demand (don’t they?) that all must accept the notions of the Politically Correct as truth, or else! This is the same mentality that inspired the Inquisition and forced Galileo to recant. Once expression gets placed in a straitjacket of official truth, then life becomes a charade, or worse (do some research into what it was like to live under “official truth” in the 20′s in Russia).
Susan from above, sums up the PC position:
“Clarkson can say what he wants, but rational individuals will defend a fair and tolerant society. We won’t force anyone to shut up, that would undermine our own cause, but we will argue our case for tolerance vigourously.”
Some might call that brow-beating.
History repeats itself when you forget it. Wouldn’t that be a shame?
Vote:August 28th, 2006 at 2:29 pm
I certainly don’t think Clarksons comments were part of a plan (on the contrary, I’m sure Nationals media advisors are furious with him) – but they do reflect a growing trend in National Party rhetoric (mainstream New Zealand, bedrock values ect) calculated to appeal to racist reactionary sentiments amoung New Zealand voters. (I cite almost all the previous comments in this thread as evidence that Clarksons views enjoy considerable popularity amoung the bigoted and ignorant in this country).
And that’s fine. But I think that New Zealand is filled with people like me who find Labours performance over the past year disgusting and are looking for an alternative – this is the time for National to move to the centre, not to cannibalise votes off the extreme right.
Vote:August 28th, 2006 at 3:10 pm
Danyl McLauchlan has a point. Labour’s belief that the country is filled with right-on tolerant lefties is plainly bullshit. The vast majority of Kiwis I have met over the past 11 years have been one very thin veneer away from outright redneck-ism.
Vote:August 28th, 2006 at 3:24 pm
It certainly wasn’t part of any plan I see either Danyl, Clarkson is a loose unit.
But why do you see his views as being part of an extreme right and calculated to appeal to racist reactionary sentiments? I don’t think there was any calculation at all. That’s one of the reasons why I like him – he’s genuine, not disingenuous like some of the other little plonkers.
Do you see the tapestry that makes up conservative political views, of which his perspectives are but one minor part? Do you consider that even though he may indeed believe and hold to exactly the views that he espouses, that doesn’t make him, in toto, a bigoted and ignorant person?
Vote:August 28th, 2006 at 3:37 pm
“Labour’s belief that the country is filled with right-on tolerant lefties is plainly bullshit”
Yet they keep winning elections, go figure!
Vote:August 28th, 2006 at 3:40 pm
By what margin? And let’s not forget the “working classes” who traditionally vote Labour, yet do not in any way reflect that party’s image of a nation of reasonable, tolerant intellectuals.
Vote:August 28th, 2006 at 3:55 pm
“By what margin”
A winning one.
Vote:August 28th, 2006 at 4:08 pm
“Clarkson is a loose unit.”
That’s right, while PTF is all Helen Clark’s fault.
Argument’s hole meets a driven truck.
Vote:August 28th, 2006 at 4:11 pm
“By what margin”
A winning one.
One being the operative word.
Vote:August 28th, 2006 at 4:16 pm
Is it just me, or does it seem that the people who are forever talking about tolerance the most intolerant of other peoples ideas/beliefs/values?
Vote:August 28th, 2006 at 6:24 pm
It’s just you.
Vote:August 28th, 2006 at 11:18 pm
The core of the left’s political ideology is collective authoritarianism. When they refer to themselves as “liberal”, this is one of the worst cases of language abuse amongst a legion of abuses. A total inversion of meaning. To live as leftists, they have to make a deliberate effort to ignore truth, common sense, and the principles of liberty and individual rights. Theirs is a belief system bereft of intellect and reason, the refuge of the uninspired and the dull, and it is the polar opposite of the ideas that underpin the real meaning of the word “liberal”.
Today, NZ is firmly in the grip of the pseudo liberals desribed above. Since the 1960′s, left wing ideas have been paramount in our universities. After so many decades of relentless indoctrination, the left have succeeded in thoroughly polluting NZ’s intellectual environment. The products of this pestilence are found everywhere. They dominate the media, the legal profession, the judiciary and of course the bureaucracy and the government. Schools have been contaminated to an extraordinary degree and so has the entertainment industry. Even corporate boardrooms have succumbed to their poison.
The irrational thoughts and behaviour patterns practised by the left have now become the norm. Collectivist minds are turning to mush. There are new rules, new customs, new damn socialist theories coming at us from every direction. Some of us tho have the strong feeling that something is wrong. Side Show Bob is concerned. Reid knows what’s happening. Bob Clarkson feels something is not right. I know we’re being damn well conned. So what’s the way out of this mess? I’ll tell you. Just do a Bob Clarkson. When told how to think or what to say or how to behave, we refuse. We tell them to fuck off. We merely disobey the left’s social protocols that stifle and stigmatise individual freedom.
See the trepidation amongst the pseudo liberals caused by Bob Clarkson’s assault on the conformity of speech and thought they have imposed on this country? Hear the panic in their voices? Its so simple. All anyone really needs to do to take back this country from the left is to reject their politically correct edicts. Just disobey. They have no clothes. There’s nothing they can really do. Call their bluff. They have only been successful BECAUSE WE HAVE LET THEM.
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn criticised himself and his compatriots for not fighting hard enough for freedom. He said “How we burned in the camps later. We didn’t love freedom enough. We submitted with pleasure! We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.” Let’s learn from that. Let’s confront the left’s attempts to impose a tyranny of the mind in this country, and force them, if they want to continue with their plan, and if they dare, to put us in real gulags.
Vote:August 29th, 2006 at 5:35 am
quite the parrallel universe that redbaiter occupies..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:August 29th, 2006 at 7:04 am
Sadly Redbaiter – its the Islamic terrorists in the UK who have the feeling that “something’s not right” and are telling UK society to “fuck off”. Think about it….
Vote:August 29th, 2006 at 7:56 am
“haha, Redbaiter – the day you respond to debate with an “idea” will be the proverbial cold one.”
That’s the trouble Noddy. You leftists and your fucken “ideas”, that are always so fucked up, so detached from reality, so unworkable, that the only way you can get them into the mainstream is by force, by means of government and legislation. There’s not a leftist idea out there that in the end doesn’t have a negative outcome. If your ideas were any good, they’d be accepted without the need for “government” to force them down people’s throats, as Bob says…
Vote:August 29th, 2006 at 8:32 am
They have no clothes.
You’re so wrong Redbaiter. I have heaps of clothes!
The irrational thoughts and behaviour patterns practised by the left have now become the norm. Collectivist minds are turning to mush.
I’m assuming you are a master of subtle irony when you claim this in the same breath that you employ supreme intellectual laziness to define the “Left” into a coherent, consistent entity to promote as an object for reactionary hatred. I also think that comment is really funny in light of the abject ignorance underpinning Clarkson’s comments. Which is not to attack his right to make those comments. I’m just exercising my right to call him as a dumb-ass for making them and you Redbaiter as a dumb-ass for defending the substantive content of the comments and then trying to claim that in doing so you’re standing up for some broader principle of righteousness. Because you’re really not.
Hear the panic in their voices?
Given your own histrionics this might be the funniest comment you’ve made yet.
Just do a Bob Clarkson. When told how to think or what to say or how to behave, we refuse. We tell them to fuck off. We merely disobey the left’s social protocols that stifle and stigmatise individual freedom.
Bob Clarkson telling Muslims who wear the Burqa to fuck off “back to Islam or Iraq” is a peculiar way to fight the stigmatism of individual freedom. It strikes me that it’s more like railing against the rights of some individuals to exercise cultural and religious beliefs that on a practical level have zero impact on anyone but those choosing to practice them (For the record, I see the debate over whether the women have a real choice in the communities that wear the burqa as distinct from the debate over the propriety of Clarkson telling them to go away because he’s worried that they’re “crooks with guns under there”).
Vote:August 29th, 2006 at 11:56 am
Redbaiter does amuse. When somebody says something he agrees with then it’s freedom of speech, yet when somebody disagrees with that point of view then it’s a stalinist attack on freedom of thought.
Hey Redbaiter – freedom of speech means people are free to tell you you’re a fuckwit, and so is Clarkson. If you don’t like it, fuck off. Clarkson is free to be a bigoted idiot in public, and everybody else is free to tell him he’s a wanker and favour Tauranga with a raised eyebrow for inflicting the likes of him and Peters on the rest of the nation.
Vote:August 29th, 2006 at 11:58 am
Actually, if Redbaiter’s points are so ridiculous, why aren’t they being responded to? I certainly would accuse her/him of hyperbole, but I would agree that much of the left in NZ is NOT good at tolerating dissent from what it sees as non-negotiable political orthodoxies. It is acceptable on the left to hold a positive view of Islam, despite its many degradations; it is less acceptable to hold a positive view of Israel or America. Why is this?
Vote:August 29th, 2006 at 12:00 pm
Actually, if Redbaiter’s points are so ridiculous, why aren’t they being responded to? I certainly would accuse her/him of hyperbole, but I would agree that much of the left in NZ is NOT good at tolerating dissent from what it sees as non-negotiable political orthodoxies. It is acceptable on the left to hold a positive view of Islam, despite its many degradations; it is less acceptable to hold a positive view of Israel or America. Why is this?
Vote:August 29th, 2006 at 1:07 pm
Mrs Marples, you can’t have that many clothes. Every movie I’ve ever seen you in your wearing the same old shit…
..and there’s two issues here. 1)Should Bob be able to criticise another culture without being labelled some kind of outcast, and 2) does one agree with what he says. So far, all I’ve dealt with is issue (1) wherein I say “Go for it Bob”. Multiculturalism is another issue altogther, and very broad. However, if you’re for it, feel free to point out one net advantage to the country (as opposed to Helen Klark’s Labour party) that arises from multiculturalism.
Vote:August 29th, 2006 at 6:42 pm
Every movie I’ve ever seen you in your wearing the same old shit…
Duh! They were movies. Movies aren’t real life!
..and there’s two issues here.
Yep, and I’d argue that you’re the one missing that throughout the thread. Calling Clarkson a racist, bigot, stupid old codger, ignorant moron or redneck isn’t an admonition against his right to express his views (your issue 1), but against the views themselves and the expressed basis for his views (your issue 2). In your conniptions you appear to have confused the two issues. Perhaps you could attack the “Left” for being intellectually arrogant in their response to an unstructured outburst from an ill-educated man, but I don’t think anything from the “Left” comes close to the attacks on liberty you’ve conjured up here.
However, if you’re for it, feel free to point out one net advantage to the country
Fair enough. I believe any society benefits from new experiences, be they affirming or challenging. I think one would be foolish to suggest that we live in a perfect society, or indeed that there is even a model for a perfect society. The broader our range of experience and influence the better equiped we are, both as a society and as individuals, to choose a successful path in life. I tend to believe that history shows permissive societies subverting over time restrictive ones more than the other way around, so I’m not afraid of the impact of diversity on our freedoms. I am afraid that ignorant, knee-jerk conservatism undermines that historical tendancy by presenting a tantalising boogey-man for fundamentalism resulting in a rise of exclusionary world views and xenophobic beliefs. And that’s bad news for all of us.
Vote:August 29th, 2006 at 7:08 pm
Cannerbry: I certainly would accuse her/him of hyperbole…
Redbaiter: Let’s confront the left’s attempts to impose a tyranny of the mind in this country, and force them, if they want to continue with their plan, and if they dare, to put us in real gulags.
no hyperbole? gulags?
seriously, can people just stop responding to redbaiter?
much as there are borderline-trolls working on both sides of the political spectrum on this site, I can nearly feel redbaiter’s spittle flying from the screen whenever I read his latest frenzied anti-left diatribe.
please don’t feed the trolls.
Vote:August 29th, 2006 at 7:14 pm
doh. sorry Cannerbry, I actually misread your post. saw a ‘wouldn’t’ where there’s actually a ‘would’.
in fact, as you ask “Actually, if Redbaiter’s points are so ridiculous, why aren’t they being responded to?”
…is probably answered by my post. Talking to the trolls just encourages them.
And who wants that, eh?
Vote:August 29th, 2006 at 9:19 pm
“Duh! They were movies. Movies aren’t real life!”
Well hell, if we’re talking real life, (?) you must have been dead for about thirty years.
“I don’t think anything from the “Left” comes close to the attacks on liberty you’ve conjured up here.”
Well you are of course free to hold that opinion, but I strongly disagree and it is my thesis that the reason the left have such a stranglehold on NZ culture is that they have been able to incrementally advance their control of language and eventually thought. I have already written enough on their methods, but the words you use above in your attacks on Bob Clarkson are pretty typical of what I’m talking about. He’s not anything like a stupid old codger. He’s a very successful businessman, a wealth creator and a risk taker, with a lot of common sense and guts. The left should be damn glad he’s here, or else whose damn blood would they be sucking?? Unfortunately for NZ, most people like Bob have fucked off for more hospitable climes.
As for part two, I’m sorry but amongst all of that, I couldn’t see anything to justify the risk of exposing NZ to internal threat from Muslim terrorists, or terrorists from any culture for that matter.
Vote:August 30th, 2006 at 8:12 am
Perhaps Jamie its you that should take your boring immature little missives elsewhere. As far as addressing the substance of any subject under discussion goes, they’re sadly deficient, and your endless whining about Redbaiter seems to me to be just another example of the typical hurt leftist, superficially educated but deeply indoctrinated, who objects to hearing the truth about his religion.
Like many leftists, you live in a place walled off from reality, and are so isolated from criticism of your faith you do not have the resources or experience to answer your critics. I suggest you get back to your skate board and your aerosol can for a while, and perhaps come back here when you’ve reflected for some time on the fact that there are indeed people out there who think differently to you, and that NZ is not quite yet wall to wall socialists. I’m proud I think differently to you. Bob Clarkson is another who has escaped the blanket the left have thrown over ideas in this country.
If you believe so completely in the inwardly collapsing socialist dream I suggest when you return here, you try to defend it with something a little more substantial than childish spite.
Vote:August 30th, 2006 at 7:40 pm
I have just seen TV1 News and I am amazed at the incoempetence or deliberate bias shown in tonight’s Bob Clarkson story.
Vote:They actually featured Ashaf Choudy commenting on what Bob Clarkson has said, without referring to what Choudry himself has said about gays.
Let us recap.
Bob Clarkson says he has nothing against gays, would prefer them to do it at home and not force anything down his throat.
Sentiments I am sure the vast majority of New Zealanders would agree with.
Now, what does Choudry believe in? What has he said on television?
Choudry said he supported the stoning of gays because it says so in the Koran.
Yet, TV1 quotes him like an innocent victim of someone they are trying to build up as ‘Bob The Bigot.’
But the true bigots are choudy and his muslim religion, which openly subjugates women and advocates the killing of homosexuals.
But alas, our state run tv channel fails to realise this, unless it has an agenda on its hands.
Now, which is it?
Anyway, I would much rather have a few beers with Bob the Builder than Choudry the queer killer anyday.
August 30th, 2006 at 7:41 pm
I have just seen TV1 News and I am amazed at the incoempetence or deliberate bias shown in tonight’s Bob Clarkson story.
Vote:They actually featured Ashaf Choudy commenting on what Bob Clarkson has said, without referring to what Choudry himself has said about gays.
Let us recap.
Bob Clarkson says he has nothing against gays, would prefer them to do it at home and not force anything down his throat.
Sentiments I am sure the vast majority of New Zealanders would agree with.
Now, what does Choudry believe in? What has he said on television?
Choudry said he supported the stoning of gays because it says so in the Koran.
Yet, TV1 quotes him like an innocent victim of someone they are trying to build up as ‘Bob The Bigot.’
But the true bigots are choudy and his muslim religion, which openly subjugates women and advocates the killing of homosexuals.
But alas, our state run tv channel fails to realise this, unless it has an agenda on its hands.
Now, which is it?
Anyway, I would much rather have a few beers with Bob the Builder than Choudry the queer killer anyday.
August 30th, 2006 at 7:55 pm
Darren:
I’ve sent Clarkson a note – identifying myself as an openly gay National Party member – assuring him that my partner and I aren’t really keen on jamming our bits down anyone else’s throat in public.
Still, it would be nice if some straight folks repaid the courtesy. I’ve noting against heterosexuals, some of my best friends are heterosexuals and I really love your music and wonderful contributions to the arts. But, FFS, people do you really think the rest of us want to watch you hets dry hump, grope and lick each others tonsils like insane Cocker Spaniels in public?
Vote:August 30th, 2006 at 7:59 pm
I have just seen TV1 News and I am amazed at the incoempetence or deliberate bias shown in tonight’s Bob Clarkson story.
Vote:They actually featured Ashaf Choudy commenting on what Bob Clarkson has said, without referring to what Choudry himself has said about gays.
Let us recap.
Bob Clarkson says he has nothing against gays, would prefer them to do it at home and not force anything down his throat.
Sentiments I am sure the vast majority of New Zealanders would agree with.
Now, what does Choudry believe in? What has he said on television?
Choudry said he supported the stoning of gays because it says so in the Koran.
Yet, TV1 quotes him like an innocent victim of someone they are trying to build up as ‘Bob The Bigot.’
But the true bigots are choudy and his muslim religion, which openly subjugates women and advocates the killing of homosexuals.
But alas, our state run tv channel fails to realise this, unless it has an agenda on its hands.
Now, which is it?
Anyway, I would much rather have a few beers with Bob the Builder than Choudry the queer killer anyday.
August 30th, 2006 at 8:13 pm
Television journalism is dead. TV One have nothing to offer us now we have the internet. Every day, the blogosphere and other internet outlets show how ineffective television is as a news medium and the conflict (or bigotry) concerning Choudry that Darren points out is typical of that pathetic bunch of incompetent try hard out of date left wing losers at TV One.
I saw John Campbell interview Bob, and although he said a lot of things that made me cringe, Clarkson came across as a genuine guy. Pretty much at sea when dealing with slimy smug little “progressive” ingrates like Campbell, but that’s part of his charm.
Wonder why Craig thought he needed to send Bob a note? Narcissism?
Vote:August 30th, 2006 at 8:38 pm
Well, I have just emailed TVNZ to point out their bias, incompetence or hypocracy.
Anyway, I am in Queenstown, and Gay Ski Week starts on Saturday.
If anyone wants to hold hands in public, be affectionate, that’s fine by me.
Not sure if anyone has arrived for it yet.
Vote:But the Cybercafe is sure playing a lot of Pet Shop Boys tonight
August 30th, 2006 at 10:19 pm
The commie-presstitute sluts who force feed us a non- stop daily diet of vile Stalinist indoctrination are running scared. Their audience is abandoning them in their droves, and the real people are taking back public discourse to its genuine morally sound foundations. Ordinary mainstream people, mums and dads are fed up to the back teeth with the disgusting mid-rot and immorality that is being peddled on TV on both the so call “news” and the thinly disguised social engineering called “reality TV”.
Right now the spewspapers are being finally killed off by the internet. Every person who signs up to broadband is one less person buying one of their lying rags, and one more person who learns the truth about the lying commie scum. The numbers are with us, but the last act of the peverts and parasitic scum will be to loot everything they can lay their greedy, grasping claws on, and no amount of polite playing “elections” and “democracy” (and remember they are right now plotting to “fix the rules” in a desperate blatant attempt to cling to their precious perks of power) is going to stop them unless we stop them first.
Vote:August 31st, 2006 at 7:16 am
Er, was that last post a satire of Redbaiter? It seems inconceivable there could be two of them…
Vote:August 31st, 2006 at 7:40 am
I think it’s someone taking the piss – but then, I thought that about Redbaiter for a long time too . . .
Vote:August 31st, 2006 at 9:27 am
Looks like Bob’s got the support he claims he has alright.
Check today’s Stuff poll.
BTW, see the “Going Going” thread if you’re wondering about the identity of the try hard leftist loser “Blueballs”..
Vote:August 31st, 2006 at 11:23 am
Bob only re-cycling what MP Winston Peters, EX MP John Tamahere and Bishop Brian Tamaki of the Destiny Church said last year to the news media. There nothing new he added just a new MP trying to make a name for him self.
Vote:August 31st, 2006 at 11:42 am
Rebaiter
Is that the thread you nearly got banned from for racism and foul(er) languge? You then asked DPF to make some IP addresses publicly available? What kind of Stalinist approach was that?
Vote:August 31st, 2006 at 1:24 pm
“Is that the thread you nearly got banned from for racism and foul(er) languge?” (sic)
Same old leftist lies and smears right Noddy? Same old cowardly strategies. One of your gang writes some worthless crap here and then you try and frame someone else for it. So typically Stalinist.
What the Clarkson issues shows is the disconnect between politicians and public. Where most of the politicians have their views and behaviour framed by the media and their fellow politicians, Bob’s fresh, yet to undergo conditioning by the media, and he’s therefore still talking like a real person. The Nationals have a chance to learn something from this, (something they should have realised long ago) and that is that many of the people out there do not think the same as NZ’s mainstream media, that group of mush brained pseudo liberal Klark dicky lickers who have far too much say in fashioning what comes out of politician’s mouths. Bob Clarkson has a message that resonates with a large part of the population, and media types such as prevail at TV One and TV Three might try hard to ridicule Bob, but they suffer from a disconnect themselves. There are statistics that show the views of the media clique differ markedly from those of the general public. Other surveys show quite clearly that the media are held in very low regard by that same public.
The Nats will do better if they confront the lefty pseudo liberal media rather than be intimidated by it. Bob came right out and said in very direct way that Wilson was biased. The public agrees. Why was Bob apparently the only Nat with the guts to express this view so openly?? I’ll tell you. Bob is yet to be turned by pressure from the likes of John Campbell and so many similar lefty media/ public relations people into the same old same old kind of politician speaking the same old same old approved PC language.
Vote:August 31st, 2006 at 1:45 pm
There are statistics that show the views of the media clique differ markedly from those of the general public. Other surveys show quite clearly that the media are held in very low regard by that same public.
Links? Sources?
Vote:August 31st, 2006 at 1:58 pm
“pseudo liberal Klark dicky lickers”
Almost Shakespearian in it’s beauty.
Vote:August 31st, 2006 at 2:00 pm
There are statistics that show the views of the media clique differ markedly from those of the general public. Other surveys show quite clearly that the media are held in very low regard by that same public.
Links? Sources?
Vote:August 31st, 2006 at 2:02 pm
Is it just me, or do comments on this site seem to act a bit randomly? Post. Error. Post again. No error, but discover that my first post did in fact work.
Vote:August 31st, 2006 at 3:50 pm
yes..too many failures at redbaiting have given him/her blueballs..eh..?
and i’ve landed a few in redbaiters’ testes(ovaries?)over the last little while…
that’s no doubt added to the blue hue too..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:August 31st, 2006 at 4:49 pm
Wow Bernie, its kind of gobsmacking that you need such a commonly accepted fact verified. What cave have you been living in over the last decade or so? A Pew Research Center Poll taken in 2004 showed five times more national journalists identify themselves as “liberal” (34 percent) than “conservative” (just 7 percent). In contrast, a survey of the public taken in May 2004 found 20 percent saying they were liberal, and 33 percent saying they were conservative. Scoop reported recently that Bill Keller, executive editor of The New York Times, said, “according to a recent opinion poll, the public’s trust in journalists is at its lowest point in decades”.
BTW, when posting on this site, my experience is that if you get a server error, then forget it, as it usually means the message has gone thru, and there’s no need to try again. Funny thing is, if I post from another computer here on the same network, even if I only post once, I always get a double post . Something is screwy somewhere.
Phil, you’re just a commie bore and an unrealising dumbfuck, you’ve never landed anything anywhere.
Vote:August 31st, 2006 at 4:54 pm
“. Funny thing is, if I post from another computer here on the same network,”
Would that computer have a different ip address by any chance?
Gotcha.
Vote:August 31st, 2006 at 5:07 pm
Wow Bernie, its kind of gobsmacking that you need such a commonly accepted fact verified.
Really, gobsmacking? I wasn’t actually questioning your statement of ‘fact’, but what you actually said was…
There are statistics that show the views of the media clique differ markedly from those of the general public. Other surveys show quite clearly that the media are held in very low regard by that same public.
I just wanted to know what those statistics and surverys were. So, thanks for the references. I don’t tend to follow American media, so would be assuming you’d say those trends were true for the NZ media as well?
Vote:August 31st, 2006 at 5:36 pm
“A survey by Pew in which media workers were asked to specify their own political affiliation was quoted last year (2004) as evidence that the media is controlled by liberals. This is a like finding that a large number of union members work in clothes factories and concluding that clothes factories are controlled by unions.”
Vote:September 3rd, 2006 at 5:09 pm
Three Cheers for Australia
Those Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on
Wednesday to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals
in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.
A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to
Australia at a special meeting with Prime Minister John Howard, he and
his ministers made it clear that extremists would face a crackdown.
Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard, hinted that
some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if they did not
accept that Australia was a secular state and its laws were made by
parliament. “If those are not your values, if you want a country which
has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you,” he
said on national television.
“I’d be saying to clerics who are teaching that there are two laws
governing people in Australia, one the Australian law and another the
Islamic law, that is false. If you can’t agree with parliamentary law,
independent courts, democracy, and would prefer Sharia law and have the
opportunity to go to another country, which practices it, perhaps, then,
that’s a better option,” Costello said.
Asked whether he meant radical clerics would be forced to leave, he said
those with dual citizenship could possibly be asked to move to the other
country.
Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told reporters that Muslims who
did not want to accept local values should “clear off”. “Basically,
people who don’t want to be Australians, and they don’t want to live by
Australian values and understand them, well then they can basically
clear off,” he said. Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims
on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation’s
mosques.
AMERICA and Canada….. ARE YOU LISTENING?
Quote:
IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It I am tired
of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual
or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali, we have
experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians.
However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the
“politically correct” crowd began complaining about the possibility that
our patriotism was offending others. I am not against immigration, nor
do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming
to Australia. However, there are a few things that those who have
recently come to
our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand.
This idea of Australia being a multicultural community has served only
to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Australians, we
have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own
lifestyle. This culture has been developed over two centuries of
struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have
sought freedom.
We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese,
Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to
become part of our society, Learn the language!
Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right
wing, political push but a fact because Christian men and women, on
Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly
documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of
our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another
part of the world as your new home. Because God is part of our culture.
We will accept your beliefs and will not question why, all we ask is
that you accept ours and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.
If the Southern Cross offends you, or you don’t like ” A Fair Go”, then
you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We
are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really
don’t care how you did things where you came from. By all means keep
your culture but do not force it on others.
This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you
every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining,
whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs,
or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other
great Australian freedom, “THE RIGHT TO LEAVE”.
If you aren’t happy here then LEAVE. We didn’t force you to come here.
Vote:You asked to be here, so accept the country YOU accepted.
September 3rd, 2006 at 6:19 pm
Nice post Paul. Shows how much Australian views are diverging from NZ. It’s inconceivable that we’d hear ministers express views like this, even if they were National ministers.
Vote:September 3rd, 2006 at 6:19 pm
Paul Marsden, are you feeling better now? What’s the weather like in the Shire?
Vote:September 3rd, 2006 at 6:55 pm
“Because God is part of our culture.”
Vote:Sounds like you and the imported religious nutters should get on like a house on fire then. They’re keen on God too.
September 3rd, 2006 at 8:12 pm
Psycho. No, Im no religious nutter. Far from it in fact. Hmmmm…I wonder if you have ever sung, ‘God Defend NZ’…???
Vote:September 3rd, 2006 at 8:15 pm
…they tell me its sung at every rugby match.
Vote:September 3rd, 2006 at 8:18 pm
…even sung in Maori, I believe.
Vote: