British Muslims
August 10th, 2006 at 10:40 pm by David FarrarUK Channel 4 has published a poll of 1,000 British Muslims. Some key results:
* 48% never attend a mosque, while 10% attend seven or more times a week
* 30% would like to live under sharia law and 54% under British law
* 28% would like to see Britian become an Islamic state
* 78% support punishing the people who published the ‘Danish cartoons’
* 49% think British people who insult Islam should be arrested and prosecuted
* 9% of respondents could be classified as hardcore Islamists, and this does not vary greatly by gender, age or social class
* Only 29% of Muslims believe the Holocaust happened as history teaches it
* 45% of British Muslims believe 9/11 was a conspiracy between Israel and the USA, with only 20% saying it was not a conspiracy
* 22% of British Muslims thought the 7/7 bombings were justified
* 56% say there is no truth at all to the idea Islam treats women as second class citizens
* However 55% say wives should always obey their husbands
Related posts:
- Muslims speaking out against terrorism
- Why there will never be peace in the Middle East
- Blair on British Islamists
- What would the British Parliament look like under proportional representation?
August 11th, 2006 at 12:43 am
Can anyone seriously quote that “Islam is the religion of peace”
Vote:August 11th, 2006 at 2:24 am
And 25% believe that Princess Diana was killed because she was going out with a muslim
Vote:August 11th, 2006 at 2:47 am
and the vast majority probably believe the UK gives them and their children greater opportunities for wealth, education and happiness than the predominantly Muslim world.
Generally it seems like 50% are moderate and the rest range from sceptical about the West to being hostile.
Vote:August 11th, 2006 at 5:52 am
I think my wife should obey me – I don’t expect it though heh
Vote:August 11th, 2006 at 6:27 am
As usual, one should read the linked article instead of DPFs carefully cherrypicked summary. For example, DPF writes:
The linked article goes on to say that:
2% denied it happened entirely, 17% think it was exaggerated . . . 24% said they had “no opinion” and 23% didn’t know what the holocaust was.
Vote:August 11th, 2006 at 6:40 am
How can people with these attitudes and values become NZ citizens. We have a unique opportunity to avoid having the muslim ghettos that they have in other countries – France, UK and Australia.
Vote:August 11th, 2006 at 7:05 am
Dim – I link through so people can see it all. The Holocaust stat is still horrific. Especially as I suspect those with no opinion, did in fact have one. Combine that question with the belief that Israel was behind 9/11 and it is all rather sad.
Vote:August 11th, 2006 at 8:18 am
Rather sad? A rather fine illustration of exactly why dealing with “these people” through confrontation is bloody idiotic.
There’s a million and one posters on this site who’re all for the “if they act against us, kill them in great quantities!” approach.
What this survey evidences is that there is a huge, huge persecution complex and deep-seated paranoia in even Muslims already living in the middle of Western culture. In other words, they genuinely believe in quite large numbers that there’s a big Christian/Jewish conspiracy to wipe them all out. Remove that and a good chunk of the justification for support for terror is diminished dramatically, just as Israel’s actions look considerably more dubious at the moment if you take away the “We’re fighting for our lives!” argument.
So, don’t you think that aggressive actions targetting Islamic countries involving the US army is possibly the worst way of resoving this issue? What’s that going to do, disprove or re-enforce that worldview?
Vote:August 11th, 2006 at 8:39 am
Forty-nine percent believe it should be a crime to insult Islam? I’m sure the majority of this 49% would view a Muslim insulting another religion in a different light. Perhaps even suggesting that Muslims be arrested for insulting infidels is in itself an insult to Islam.
Islam is based on ‘us and them’ dogma. Koran, sharia, hadith… it is all intransigent dogma. Hadith is the most hilarious. Hadith is where Islam ‘scholars’ trace oral histories of what Mohammed said and did. If he’d burped while munching on a big mac (a halal bm of course) then there would be a ruling that all Muslims must burp at a certain point during bm consumption.
Why is it such a travesty to call Islam what it is… an incredibly stupid cult? What other religion instructs people to clean their genitals with an odd number of pebbles?
I’m with Tim. We don’t need to make the mistakes so many European nations have made.
Islam’s central tenet is that Muslims are not to be treated the same as non-Muslims. Islam teaches that it must replace or usurp the values and cultural mores of other host nations. Ultimately Islam teaches that all good Muslims must do their best to move the society they live in to a point where sharia is paramount.
Vote:August 11th, 2006 at 8:47 am
Not to mention that every time an opinion poll is published in NZ I see a significant minority, or even a majority, of responses expressing authoritarianism, religious superstition, ignorance, pettiness, just plain stupidity, or horror of horrors, “All of the above.”
As Mr Barclay said, “How can people with these attitudes and values become NZ citizens?” (OK, not quite as he said, given that I understand a question should end in a question mark.)
NB: I presume the 20% saying 9/11 wasn’t a conspiracy are just saying it wasn’t an Israeli/American one? Because it was certainly somebody’s conspiracy.
Vote:August 11th, 2006 at 8:52 am
And some people still think that appeasing Islamists is the way to peace. Neville Chamberlain had that one sorted as well. Islam is the religion of Peace – as long as you subscribe to the paricular cult that has preeminnence in your area or you will be killed.
48% don’t go to the Mosque but more than that think that people who criticise or mock their whacky beliefs should be punished? How does that work?
Vote:August 11th, 2006 at 8:56 am
45% of British Muslims believe 9/11 was a conspiracy between Israel and the USA?
And how many Americans still believe that Saddam is responsible for 9/11?
Stupidity knows no colour, nationality or religion.
Vote:August 11th, 2006 at 9:09 am
Well, well Milt is giving grammar lessons now. Here’s one for you Milt. The word ‘percentage’ (or its equivalent symbol) is singular. That means you got it wrong when you used the word ‘are’ in your penultimate sentence. The word ‘is’ should have been used.
Who cares Milt? You sound like an a complete dork. With “… given that I understand a question should end in a question mark” you must take the ‘dork of the day’ award.
Vote:August 11th, 2006 at 9:11 am
Well, well Milt is giving grammar lessons now. Here’s one for you Milt. The word ‘percentage’ (or its equivalent symbol) is singular. That means you got it wrong when you used the word ‘are’ in your penultimate sentence. The word ‘is’ should have been used.
Who cares Milt? You sound like an a complete dork. With “… given that I understand a question should end in a question mark” you must take the ‘dork of the day’ award.
Vote:August 11th, 2006 at 9:35 am
What other religion instructs people to clean their genitals with an odd number of pebbles?
If I had to choose between that and kill one of my sons in a sacrifice to my God and as a proof of my commitment to Him, I think I’d go find some very, very, very smooth pebbles.
Vote:August 11th, 2006 at 9:49 am
What about hanging your 15 year old daughter from a crane because she defended herself from being raped belt?
Vote:August 11th, 2006 at 9:53 am
Belt, I presume that you refer to Moses and God’s request for him to sacrifice his son, Isaac, on Sinai.
I also take it that you are unaware of Moses’ status in Islam. Moses is mentioned in the Koran more than any other prophet. The whole burning bush thing is taken very seriously by Muslims.
In fact when Mohammod did his midnight flight to heaven and then to the site of the Dome on the Rock (the big Mosque in Jeruslam where the Jewish temple was once located) he wound up leading Jesus, Moses and other prophets in prayer.
Islam has a lot of sacrifice in its history.
Vote:August 11th, 2006 at 9:54 am
Tim is right. Many in the UK feel they made a mistake with their open immigration policies, and now wish they could turn the clock back. New Zealand should not follow in their footsteps, or we will face the exact same problems. Anyone who has lived in the UK is well aware of the problems created by non-integration.
Vote:August 11th, 2006 at 10:25 am
Islam is not a monolith anymore than Christianity is. There are Muslims who are totally opposed to the tactics and beliefs of the fanatics, just as there are Christians opposed to nutters like Destiny Church or Pat Robertson in the US. There are many issues behind the current situation. One of the key ones is the grip corrupt governments such as the Egyptian, Saudi and Syrian ones have. Every time there is any serious threat to the established power base, they drag Israel in and blame everything on Israel, a canard which many feel obliged to accept. This then takes the heat off the local problems, giving them a boogie man in Israel to blame for everything.
Vote:August 11th, 2006 at 10:32 am
If your in Wellington this weekend,
There is an Open day This saturday the 12th
11 Queens Drive Kilbirnie 9am to 3am
I suggest that the people making comments on this thread should go and check it out.
Vote:August 11th, 2006 at 10:33 am
If your in Wellington this weekend,
There is an Open day at Kilbirnie Mosque
This saturday the 12th
7-11 Queens Drive Kilbirnie 9am to 3am
(just behgind the shell station, hard to miss)
I suggest that the people making comments on this thread should go and check it out.
Vote:August 11th, 2006 at 10:48 am
Yes Islam is diverse, mikeybikll. The problem I see with Islam is that we in the west are prone to shoe-horning Islam into moulds we use every day for our own political and religious realities.
In New Zealand we (maybe) talk about liberals, centrists and conservatives. If we don’t use these terms, we use very similar expressions.
So we then apply the term ‘centrist’ or ‘moderate’ to Islam as if this will represent a majority view which is both reasonable and sympathetic with what can be viewed as middle-of-the-road in our own society,
The trouble with this approach is that the norm in Islam is quite extreme by our own standards. The very liberal in Islam is more equivalent to our sense of what is moderate.
The extreme in Islam is something of which we have no understanding whatsoever.
Vote:August 11th, 2006 at 10:56 am
A lot of you people just don’t get sarcasm, do you?
You respond to me for making fun of someone who writes off a whole religion based on one mention of some pebble cleaning? The bible is full of references which are extreme – especially when taken out of context. But no, let’s go ask my opinion about hanging attempted rape victims from cranes instead.
And Andrew, bless his socks, in “correcting” me actually managed to illustrate that Islam and Christianity have a lot of common ground in their foundations. Doesn’t anyone see the irony in these blanket rejections and labelling of a whole population based on the actions of relative few. I guess not.
Come on y’all, let’s go tag a mosk or two to show them desert monkeys to go home!
Some of you need to take a hard look at yourselves.
and Murray, it all depends on the type of crane. (As if you ever deserve a serious answer on any topic).
and DPF, it’s a free country and all, and oh yeah, aren’t we all so great for being so tolerant, but inciting hatred is something that comes with a lot of responsibility attached when exercised as a freedom. Your timing’s way off bud. Just look at the freak show you managed to generate in your “loyal following” today. No choc fish for you today.
Beating up Maori (Kahui, “Warrior gene”) over the last few months, it’s Muslim season now… wonder what will be next in a few months time?
Vote:August 11th, 2006 at 11:02 am
Well Belt, you think that killing sons and the subject of sacrifice is the stuff of humorous sarcasm. I’m more inclined to think that washing genitals with an odd number of pebbles is funny.
Vote:August 11th, 2006 at 11:13 am
I tried to ignore Belt’s Maori bashing and Kahui connection. I failed. Belt, – commentary on the Kahui murders is as much ‘Maori Bashing’ as talking about the Bain murders is ‘Pakeha Bashing.’
Murder trancends race.
Vote:August 11th, 2006 at 12:08 pm
Just for the record, it was Abraham (not Moses) who was asked to sacrifice his son. God provided a substitute at the last minute.
Interestingly, it happened in almost the exact same place where Jesus died many years later.
Vote:August 11th, 2006 at 12:24 pm
“How can people with these attitudes and values become NZ citizens”
That by the way folks, is the new right wing agenda. Place us in mortal fear of a culture. You saw it in Dear Don’s last speach, you see it on DPF’s blog, Steven Franks is an exponant.
This is a strawman debate if ever I saw one.
Try a similar survey of “Christian” Americans and see what you get, by tghe way.
Vote:August 11th, 2006 at 12:28 pm
I tried to ignore Belt’s Maori bashing and Kahui connection
Unless you’ve been under a rock, the Kahui case set of a chain of events causing “all Maori” to be lumped together as potentially violent dole bludgers and child killers, culminating in the deliberate misreporting of research by a NZ researcher suggesting Maori have an in-built propensity to violence based on geneticsjust e few days ago. Tut tut.
Just like “all Muslims” are now under pressure because of the actions of a relative few.
And some months from now, we’ll find another sector of society we can look down on by grouping them all together.
That’s my point. Feel free to continue to miss it.
Vote:August 11th, 2006 at 12:28 pm
Belt – I don’t see how reporting the findings of a poll is inciting hatred.
I would say trying to mass murder people is inciting hatred though.
Vote:August 11th, 2006 at 1:22 pm
Belt – I don’t see how reporting the findings of a poll is inciting hatred.
Not “a” poll. David.
A very specific poll, with very specific aims, and very specific answers and which you very specifically and selectively quoted from.
As a professional pollster you know better than most that the selection of the sample, the context in which the questions are asked, the outcome the client is hoping for and the way results are collated and reported are all critical factors, and don’t always have a bearing on reality. It is only the reputation of a polling company, over time, that give a result a degree of credence. Those companies that regularly produce the results they are paid to produce are nothing more than PR companies using polls as a Trojan horse. An newspapers looking for cheap copy and increased subscriptions are willing whores in that relationship by publishing that manufactured junk.
Reporting culturally inflammatory poll results such as that on the day terrorists that are identified to come from the same general group in a very, very, very general sense, and then only quoting selectively, is far from being an innocent bystander.
You very well know what I mean, so the “what, me?” routine isn’t going to do it today.
Vote:August 11th, 2006 at 1:40 pm
IMHO its about tolerance and acceptance. Its a continuim. In NZ most people of whatever ethnic background and religion are pretty accepting on a one on one basis and as a group.Not so in other countries. Perhaps its a little too easy for us to critise whats happening in other places (and I include myself) We arent there We are also now aware that what we see on the TV is not what we think we see.We should remember there are 3 sides to every story Your side My side and the truth And all 3 are mutually exclusive.Only when you have all 3 side can you make a valid judgement.
Vote:August 11th, 2006 at 1:44 pm
“We are also now aware that what we see on the TV is not what we think we see.”
Sorry but……. did you only just figure that out?
Vote:August 11th, 2006 at 2:36 pm
Oh God said to Abraham, “Kill me a son”
Vote:Abe says, “Man, you must be puttin’ me on”
God say, “No.” Abe say, “What?”
God say, “You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin’ you better run”
Well Abe says, “Where do you want this killin’ done?”
God says, “Out on Highway 61.”
August 11th, 2006 at 2:40 pm
Geez, Belt, put the undergrad sociology coursebook back in the bag. I find the poll both interesting and informative; you on the other hand want to censor anything you find discomforting. Presumably, no Muslims were tortured to extract this nformation; they gave it freely for the public to consume. Who on earth are you to overrule this and deny them a voice?
Imperialist oppressor Pig…
Vote:August 11th, 2006 at 2:42 pm
Belt – the polling company seems most reputable. This was not for a tabloid newspaper.
Yes I only highlighted the more disturbing of the findings, but that is the case with most news – you highlight the ususual.
I agree the results are inflammatory, but that is the fault of the respondents not the pollsters.
As for the arrested terror suspects coming from the same group, I haven’t actually seen a single news story that refers to those arrested as being Muslim. In fact they have gone to great lengths to not describe the suspects except as British born.
Vote:August 11th, 2006 at 3:30 pm
photocam Dont tell anyone but I figured it out in July 1969 when you know the big warehouse in Texas that they fooled us about.
Vote:August 11th, 2006 at 6:21 pm
“How can people with these attitudes and values become NZ citizens. We have a unique opportunity to avoid having the muslim ghettos that they have in other countries – France, UK and Australia.”
Danyl – couldn’t agree more.
Vote:The UK should never have let them in the country and we shouldn’t ket them in ours either.
Let them live in their own country and they can do what they like (Bush and Blair get the hell out). Our cultures seem to be incompatible.
August 12th, 2006 at 4:31 pm
60 % of Americans who watch fox news believe that the US found WMDs in Iraq. 80 % believe that Saddam had a role in the 9/11 attacks. Considering that this comes from the world’s most powerful country, I say these results are scarier.
Vote:August 12th, 2006 at 6:04 pm
“I haven’t actually seen a single news story that refers to those arrested as being Muslim.”
The lead story on TV3 news last night started by referring to them as “British-born Muslims with links to Pakistan”.
Vote:August 13th, 2006 at 9:05 pm
David I strongly suggest that your next overseas trip is to a Muslim country like Turkey or Egypt so you can actually see how people in these countries live their everyday lives. And then you might see that they are not that different to you or I. Reading your posts over the last few weeks it is not hard to see your pro-Jewish and anti-Muslim view of the world. I used to think that most New Zealanders were above these narrow views but reading the posts on this blog I am not so sure.
Vote:August 13th, 2006 at 9:18 pm
Rocket Boy makes the mistake of thinking I am anti-Muslim. I am anti_Islamist. Unfortunately thay make up a significant minority of Muslims.
You also assume I have not been to Muslim countries or know Muslims. I do.
If RB bothered to look back on the blog, he would also see I have praised the NZ Muslim community on many occassions.
Vote:August 14th, 2006 at 5:57 am
The problem DPF, is that you, as blog-owner, can link to whatever you want. Your editorial responsibility also leaves you open to charges of bias when you don’t link to other interesting stories. Like this one:
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1002984956
Vote:August 14th, 2006 at 8:15 am
MCMC – I have no editorial responsibility to be fair or non biased as you see it. If you don’t like what I highlight then go set up your own blog and highlight what you think I miss. Don’t whine here about it though.
Here we have your moral equivalnce again. A poll of British Muslims find 20% support terrorist attacks on the country they live in. While a poll of Americans find some do not want Muslim neighbours.
Oh wow that is just so much the same. Not.
Find me a poll which say 20% of Christians living in a country where they are the minority, support terrorist attacks against that country, and you have a comparison.
Vote:August 14th, 2006 at 9:06 am
Nice spin on the article. Somehow I thought that 40% of Americans was US muslims to carry a special form of ID was somehow the more important bit.
I think if you don’t like being criticized, you should turn off all comments (not just mine) like Public Address does. I agree that it’s your blog and you can post whatever you want, but if you care anything about public debate instead of just having a box at speakers corner, then making those decisions leaves you open to criticism.
Vote:August 14th, 2006 at 10:06 am
above: “was” =”wanted”
40% of Americans wanted US muslims to carry a special form of ID…
Vote:August 14th, 2006 at 9:56 pm
A few negative experiences overseas with Muslims that I have not experienced with any other race/culture:
-Nearly being mugged by 3 Muslims In Manchester
-Working in a big nightclub in Manchester where nearly all of the serious trouble was caused by Muslims.
-Being chased out of a store in Paris by a Muslim store owner with a crowbar- because my sister complained about a hole in a packet of biscuits she wanted to buy. There was also a riot in part of Paris the next day, apparently because an elderly french war veteran was taking potshots at local Muslim youths- This particular riot wasn’t reported overseas.
These incidents have only strengthened my opinion that the prudent policy for NZ is to limit Muslim immigration. Maybe most Muslims are ok, but why take the risk? Most kiwis think Europe is a multicultural paradise because they only go to London in the UK, and maybe a few well-Policed streets in Paris.
Vote:August 14th, 2006 at 9:57 pm
A few negative experiences overseas with Muslims that I have not experienced with any other race/culture:
-Nearly being mugged by 3 Muslims In Manchester
-Working in a big nightclub in Manchester where nearly all of the serious trouble was caused by Muslims.
-Being chased out of a store in Paris by a Muslim store owner with a crowbar- because my sister complained about a hole in a packet of biscuits she wanted to buy. There was also a riot in part of Paris the next day, apparently because an elderly french war veteran was taking potshots at local Muslim youths- This particular riot wasn’t reported overseas.
These incidents have only strengthened my opinion that the prudent policy for NZ is to limit Muslim immigration. Maybe most Muslims are ok, but why take the risk? Most kiwis think Europe is a multicultural paradise because they only go to London in the UK, and maybe a few well-policed streets in Paris.
Vote:August 14th, 2006 at 9:58 pm
A few negative experiences overseas with Muslims that I have not experienced with any other race/culture:
-Nearly being mugged by 3 Muslims In Manchester
-Working in a big nightclub in Manchester where nearly all of the serious trouble was caused by Muslims.
-Being chased out of a store in Paris by a Muslim store owner with a crowbar- because my sister complained about a hole in a packet of biscuits she wanted to buy. There was also a riot in part of Paris the next day, apparently because an elderly french war veteran was taking potshots at local Muslim youths- This particular riot wasn’t reported overseas.
These incidents have only strengthened my opinion that the prudent policy for NZ is to limit Muslim immigration. Maybe most Muslims are ok, but why take the risk? Most kiwis think Europe is a multicultural paradise because they only go to London in the UK, and maybe a few well-policed streets in Paris.
Vote:August 14th, 2006 at 9:59 pm
A few negative experiences overseas with Muslims that I have not experienced with any other race/culture:
-Nearly being mugged by 3 Muslims In Manchester
-Working in a big nightclub in Manchester where nearly all of the serious trouble was caused by Muslims.
-Being chased out of a store in Paris by a Muslim store owner with a crowbar- because my sister complained about a hole in a packet of biscuits she wanted to buy. There was also a riot in part of Paris the next day, apparently because an elderly french war veteran was taking potshots at local Muslim youths- This particular riot wasn’t reported overseas.
These incidents have only strengthened my opinion that the prudent policy for NZ is to limit Muslim immigration. Maybe most Muslims are ok, but why take the risk? Most kiwis think Europe is a multicultural paradise because they only go to London in the UK, and maybe a few well-policed streets in Paris.
Vote:August 14th, 2006 at 11:16 pm
nz conservative – I’ve lived in a muslim majority country for 8 years (Turkey). The vast majority of the Turksh Muslims I knew were incredibly hard working, honest, and friendly.
There were fanatics amongst them, but I find the nutters in Destiny Church and their ilk just as disturbing. You complain of being wronged by Muslims: I’ve had Greek Orthodox try and rob me, going by your logic, all Orthodox are a risk to us all.
Your argument is weak and makes no sense. It seems merely thinly disguided prejudice.
Vote: