Supporting our Allies
It’s good to see Helen Clark once again supporting our traditional allies of Russia, France and China and backing them over Australia, UK, Japan and the US over whether Australia should head the East Timor peace-keeping force.
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Tags: International Politics
August 21st, 2006 at 7:18 am
Our foreign policy is being written with the Secretary Generalship in mind. Never mind backing Australia. But if Aistralia does not back us we sink into the pacific ocean but she would not care about that as she sits in her office in New York.
August 21st, 2006 at 7:40 am
Of course in a “benign strategic environment” she can say whatever she likes cant she? There are no unforseen consequences to worry about.
And remember, china is our new best buddy:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4797903.stm
August 21st, 2006 at 8:40 am
I laughed at this:
“Supporting Australia’s bid to maintain their “green helmet” status are permanent members the United States and Britain, as well as Japan, a short-term member.”
Since when did green helmet man have anything to do with Australia .. the plot thickens..
August 21st, 2006 at 8:59 am
Clutching at straws, eh DPF? Sorry to disappoint you all but this in entirely consistent with NZ policy of many, many years. That is taking a multilateral, UN approach wherever possible.
“New Zealand wants the United Nations to formally head the peace-keeping operation, but would back Australia to continue to lead a new peace-keeping mission under the UN umbrella.”
They still want Australia to lead the force, they just would like it was a UN label.This makes any actions NZ and Australia take far more likely to comply with international law.
August 21st, 2006 at 9:06 am
No doubt you are disappointed she didn’t join our traditional allies in the coalition of the willing that invaded Iraq. Sometimes the more sensible option is NOT to join your traditional allies…..
August 21st, 2006 at 9:28 am
Great company to be in.
Most of Hezbollahs weapons come from Russia.
China has a fantastic human rights record.
France sets up a UN resolution and then offers 200 troops.
Who would you want coming to your aid in the event of an invasion. France has never even been able to defend itself let alone anyone else.
August 21st, 2006 at 9:44 am
Straws clutching at.
August 21st, 2006 at 10:37 am
Australia is trying to exert regional hegemony over East Timor after the Timor Gap oil concession dispute. There’s nothing unusual about that, indeed Australia has always run a foreign policy of ‘enlightened self interest’.
Framing the debate in terms of ‘traditional allies’ and making it about commie loving and cheese eating surrender monkeys is to take away from the real issues at stake here. New Zealand is right to demand that a multinational force in Timor is under the mandate of the United Nations, to check the influence of Australia over its smaller neighbour.
August 21st, 2006 at 10:42 am
David, since when did “tradition” become a good reason for doing anything?
And as far as I can tell, NZ will support Oz as the leading country under a UN umbrella, so no real difference. What’s wrong with doing this under “blue berets” status?
Southern Raider:
Most of Hezbollahs (sic) weapons come from Russia.
Don’t start that. I can think of numerous dictatorships and totalitarian regimes that were armed by the US!
August 21st, 2006 at 10:57 am
You’ve never had to take part in a blue hat op have you Andrew.
Everything gets decided by commitee. The committee is in New York.
By the time they decide on the ROE’s you have another village full of dead people.
If this stance is consistant with our normal policy why the hell did we put in 6,500 people under green hat rules?
The UN is the outfit that oversaw the Blakans and Ruwanda. Australia is the one the one that punted the Indos and their militia out of East Timor.
Track record indicates whats best for East Timor.
August 21st, 2006 at 11:04 am
Murray, give a bunch of young guys guns, train them to kill, and put them in a tense environment and things will go wrong, no matter who runs the show.
No, I have never been in a UN op, but my dad died in one!
August 21st, 2006 at 12:45 pm
NZ should have stuck with its traditional allies on Iraq and they should stick with them elsewhere. The National Party, rather than being so gutlessly mute on the issue, should confront the leftist propaganda merchants in our media and our universities, and articulate an argument for this. By being silent on it, they’re only giving the left a stick to beat them with, as they discovered at the last election when Brash was attacked on the matter of sending troops to Iraq. If you don’t fight you loose, against global terror and against the power crazed Stalinist left here in NZ.
Klark anyway will always take the UN line. Its her next source of income, after NZers manage to shake themselves free of her parasitical grip.
August 21st, 2006 at 1:03 pm
Oh that would win the next election for National, I can see the billboards now.
VOTE NATIONAL TO SEND KIWIS TO iRAQ
August 21st, 2006 at 1:12 pm
gee sonic – i dunno – kiwis like quiet nocturnal bushy areas
August 21st, 2006 at 1:35 pm
60,000 Allied troops died on the 1st day of the Battle of the Somme in 1916. Sometimes it pays to pause a moment or two before joining with “allies” in every situation.
August 21st, 2006 at 1:37 pm
Your typically leftist comprehension lets you down Sonic. Read my comment again, maybe that will help. I said if the Nats were to “articulate” the arguments for such an event, then there would be less public disquiet, and the billboard you suggest would not have the impact you intend. Rather there would be a billboard saying KLARK GOVERMENTT APPEASES AND PROPAGANDIZES FOR GLOBAL TERRORISTS. Imagine the impact of that.
August 21st, 2006 at 1:53 pm
Yes, imagine the impact. Many voters would be surprised that the National Party can’t spell, others would be pondering whether propagandize is actually a word, still others would be left wondering when Clark (assuming that’s who was meant) had done any of this. Oh yes, a real winner…
August 21st, 2006 at 2:00 pm
Going by the grip the left have on this country Milt, you’d be nobody to tell anyone how to win. Here’s one simple hint. First, you need to fight on the issues.
August 21st, 2006 at 2:01 pm
We should lobby for RB to head up the National parties election team, can you imagine the billboards?
VOTE NATIONAL YOU BUNCH OF FILTHY BRAINWASHED RED SCUM.
August 21st, 2006 at 2:08 pm
Yeah sonic news flash, we already HAVE kiwis in Iraq. Dear leader has put more kiwis into combat than any other PM since WWII.
Andrew, my father almost bit it in a blue hat op. thats why his advice when I joined was never ever join one. Go to prison but don’t join a UN mission.
The mission objectives are a politically motivated mishmash of unachievable feel good verbosity and the ROE are redefined with every resup.
The most dangerous thing you can do is train a soldier as a soldier then change the rules on him.
There is also no such thing as a Police action.
Also depending on what the action your father was involved in he cmay have qualified for a number of decorations that have only been recently inistituted. You may want to check with the medals office in Threntham.
August 21st, 2006 at 2:14 pm
It wouldn’t work Sonic. I could never bring myself to pussyfoot around socialism the way the Nats do. I’ve watched three of them in the last few weeks on the Larry Williams show, and they’ve all seemed ideologically paralysed. No damn wonder that even with the Klark gang so visibly corrupt, the Nats can’t make any kind of real impact in the polls. If they win the next election, it’ll be by default rather than design and NZ will be stuck with the same old wimpy PC socialist sludge for another few terms, (like that cricketer Cunis, neither one thing or the other..) and then the left will come roaring back and really fuck the country up for all time.
August 21st, 2006 at 2:33 pm
I could never bring myself to pussyfoot around socialism the way the Nats do.
What DO you do for a living, Redbaiter?
August 21st, 2006 at 2:36 pm
I can sympathise with RB, he knows the only way to save NZ is to execute anyone who has ever voted Labour, but when you tell people that they say you are mad.
Go figure?
August 21st, 2006 at 2:45 pm
DIM
I broker deals for slave traders in North West Africa.
August 21st, 2006 at 2:56 pm
Andrew – your “since when did ‘tradition’ become a good reason for doing anything?” is best answered by the results of the ‘non-traditional’ social experiments of the last century. Give me ‘tradition’ over facism and communism any day – as I’ll likely get to see another!
August 21st, 2006 at 3:07 pm
Andrew – your “since when did ‘tradition’ become a good reason for doing anything?” is best answered by observing the results of the ‘non-traditional’ experiments of the last century (fascism/communism). Which didn’t turn out too good for the 100 million killed by them. Also, why settle for the LCD (lowest common denominator) approach championed by the UN – we (and the rest of the world) would be better served by supporting the HCF (highest common factor) Angloshere.
August 21st, 2006 at 3:08 pm
Andrew – your “since when did ‘tradition’ become a good reason for doing anything?” is best answered by observing the results of the ‘non-traditional’ experiments of the last century (fascism/communism). Which didn’t turn out too good for the 100 million killed by them. Also, why settle for the LCD (lowest common denominator) approach championed by the UN – we (and the rest of the world) would be better served by supporting the HCF (highest common factor) Anglosphere.
August 21st, 2006 at 3:46 pm
Murray says:
“Dear leader has put more kiwis into combat than any other PM since WWII.”
and this is letting down our allies, how?
August 21st, 2006 at 3:52 pm
“we (and the rest of the world) would be better served by supporting the HCF (highest common factor) Angloshere”
I’m sure after the amazing success of the Iraq invasion many people would agree with you.
August 21st, 2006 at 4:03 pm
Do you think Sean is aware of the acute irony involved in using computers to convey his spirited defense of life back in the pre-industrial era?
August 21st, 2006 at 4:04 pm
Maybe Redbaiter is actually a left-winger putting up straw man arguments to refute?
August 21st, 2006 at 4:06 pm
What a shame Sonic, that your world is so one dimensional you apparently think of the overthrow of the totalitarian dictator Hussein and the establishment of democracy in Iraq and a beach head for democracy in the Middle East as some kind of failure. What’s a win in your book? Castro’s continued oppression of the Cuban people? His murders? His jailing of pro democracy protestors? Or maybe the Tiannimen Square massacre and the continued rule of the Chinese gererals was a victory. That the kind of thing you rejoice in is it Sonic?
August 21st, 2006 at 4:07 pm
What a shame Sonic, that your world is so one dimensional you apparently think of the overthrow of the totalitarian dictator Hussein and the establishment of democracy in Iraq and a beach head for democracy in the Middle East as some kind of failure. What’s a win in your book? Castro’s continued oppression of the Cuban people? His murders? His jailing of pro democracy protestors? Or maybe the Tiannimen Square massacre and the continued rule of the Chinese gererals was a victory. That the kind of thing you rejoice in is it Sonic?
August 21st, 2006 at 4:24 pm
Iraq a failure?
Of course not, that is if the goal was to kill as many people as possible.
3000 dead last month alone, what a triumph!
August 21st, 2006 at 4:39 pm
People were killed to liberate Europe from the Nazis Sonic, but I guess that’s somethimg else the left regard as a failure right?? Maybe the allies should have stayed safe at home and let your mate Adolf liquidate every Jew, Gypsy, homosexual and every other kind of non person in Europe right?
August 21st, 2006 at 4:42 pm
Well if you are so keen RB pop over to the US/UK and join up!
Wouldn’t want anyone thinking you are a blowhard would we?
August 21st, 2006 at 4:50 pm
“we”..??
How come you pathetic commies habitually write here as if you represent more than one person. All a bunch of fucken ants are you? A collective intelligence, with each unit incapable of functioning on its own.
August 21st, 2006 at 4:53 pm
Great stuff RB, thanks for putting a smile on all of our faces.
xxx
S
August 21st, 2006 at 5:05 pm
Redbaiter why do you spell Clark’s name Klark?
August 21st, 2006 at 5:40 pm
Kremlin Cheka Kruschev Kommandante Cherneko Nikita Ukraine Mikhail Aleksi Trotsky Sputknik Nikolai Kostantin Perestroyka Kokoshniki Kalashnikov Khram Ksinsk Kolyma
August 21st, 2006 at 5:48 pm
Sean, you really missed my point (3 times no less).
Murray, you say ther UN mission objectives are a politically motivated mishmash of unachievable feel good verbosity and the ROE are redefined with every resup.
Right, of course.
Father got killed in Lebanon in the late seventies, but was not in the NZ army.
August 21st, 2006 at 7:56 pm
Real question is: will the UN be deploying its elite s*x-for-favours battalions, as in Africa?
August 21st, 2006 at 8:14 pm
All the ‘debate’ (I know I’m straining it) here has failed to mention that East Timor has actually asked in rather forthright terms, for the Australians to work under the UN.
Australia is trenchantly refusing to cooperate with the ET Govt means that their troops are in the position of being an occupying force. It’s beggining to look to my cynical eye that Australia’s quick and comprehensive response has at some stage become in part to ensure leverage over ET.
The Timorese, while greatful, aren’t too happy with the way the troops have behaved since the crisis. They act like they own the place, and dont really interact with the population on any real level. ET needs a police force, not soldiers.
Oh, and for those who havent been paying attention, it’s not about fluffy bunnies and hugs, or Clark channelling Stalin. There are real issues at stake here.
August 21st, 2006 at 8:15 pm
All the ‘debate’ (I know I’m straining it) here has failed to mention that East Timor has actually asked in rather forthright terms, for the Australians to work under the UN.
Australia is trenchantly refusing to cooperate with the ET Govt means that their troops are in the position of being an occupying force. It’s beggining to look to my cynical eye that Australia’s quick and comprehensive response has at some stage become in part to ensure leverage over ET.
The Timorese, while greatful, aren’t too happy with the way the troops have behaved since the crisis. They act like they own the place, and dont really interact with the population on any real level. ET needs a police force, not soldiers.
Oh, and for those who havent been paying attention, it’s not about fluffy bunnies and hugs, or Clark channelling Stalin. There are real issues at stake here.
August 21st, 2006 at 9:20 pm
It’s about the oil. If the Timor Gap didn’t have significant reserves of gas and oil, then no-one would give a damn, the place would be left to the Indonesians.
The Timor gap oil deals between Australia and East Timor are fairly shady- the Australians apparently just take what they want, no matter whether it is on the Timorese or the Aussie side of the border. They pay a token amount to the weak Timorese government, who they prop up with troops. No troops = no government, so the Timorese are forced to like it or lump it.
It’s like the British Empire in miniature or something.
August 21st, 2006 at 10:35 pm
“It’s like the British Empire in miniature or something.”
Horrors! And the Indonesians murdering Timorese is like…what, exactly?
If Australia refused to send troops, they’d be heartless uncaring white Western bastards, I guess.
They send troops and they’re colonialists.
But no mention of U.N. troops from predominently Muslim countries indulging in sex-for-favours, child prostitution, selling food aid etc etc.
The left sicken me.
August 21st, 2006 at 10:44 pm
And, uk_kiwi, Australia also deployed troops and police officers to the Solomons. No oil there.
So what was the motive? To corner the coconut market?
idiot.
August 21st, 2006 at 10:47 pm
Shut up Keith. No-one I can see here is condemning the 1999 UN force which you seem to have confused here.
The Timorese Govt., is very greatful to the Australians for their military support. What they, I, and uk_kiwi don’t like is the Australians callously exploiting their position.
Unless ET gets sufficient international support for a multinational UN force, they’ll be in a position they can’t refuse. A small country with a gun to its head. And I can’t see how any of you can argue for that.
August 21st, 2006 at 10:58 pm
Unfortunately for you, Darroch you’re in no position to tell me to “shut up’. (unless you pay for the bandwidth on this blog).
So–Australia did the right thing in 1999 but are now “callously exploiting their position” according to you.
So why weren’t they callously calculating the potential benefits in 1999? Did the oil suddenly appear since then?
Australia acts in Australia’s self-interest, as countries do.
August 22nd, 2006 at 9:22 am
“Australia acts in Australia’s self-interest, as countries do.”
In which case, Keith, they are an occupying force and NZ would be correct to be concerned about the legality of our position. There are damn good reasons for doing things under the UN flag, you don’t have to be Jesse Helms’ licky boy all the time…
August 22nd, 2006 at 11:13 am
For Noddy: From one who has served with the UN in the mid East and worked in Solomons.
Definition of UN from their own permanent staff; UN= United Nothing. we are totally united in achieving nothing! This is the organization that still is trying to work out the situation in Cyprus, their very first mission! The UN is completely incapable of solving anything, this is a fact, not an opinion, their past history shows it to be true. Sure the Aussies are out for what suits them but at least that means it suits someone!(and it will bring some peace) the UN has never solved anything to suit anybody only generated a beuracratic talkfest anywhere it has been and during these talkfests the simple local guy still suffers!
Grow up and realise that endless papershufflers and bullshit artists are a waste of everybodys time and money.
August 22nd, 2006 at 11:14 am
For Noddy: From one who has served with the UN in the mid East and worked in Solomons.
Definition of UN from their own permanent staff; UN= United Nothing. we are totally united in achieving nothing! This is the organization that still is trying to work out the situation in Cyprus, their very first mission! The UN is completely incapable of solving anything, this is a fact, not an opinion, their past history shows it to be true. Sure the Aussies are out for what suits them but at least that means it suits someone!(and it will bring some peace) the UN has never solved anything to suit anybody only generated a beuracratic talkfest anywhere it has been and during these talkfests the simple local guy still suffers!
Grow up and realise that endless papershufflers and bullshit artists are a waste of everybodys time and money.
August 22nd, 2006 at 2:18 pm
In that case, DB, we can kiss goodbye to our 200 mile economic zone.
No rose tinted specs here about international organisations such as the UN, IMF and WB but I also have no doubt whatsoever that they are required and, in the end, worthy of our support, warts and all…
August 23rd, 2006 at 1:42 am
That silly bitch and her followers couldn’t make a peacekeepers asshole between them. The UN has turn ET into a shitfight, its alot worst now than under Interfet and I was here for Interfet. The UN has done bugger all to the place, oversea aid has been misspent or poured down the the hole. Tonight we had rds down range at the airport (At the IDP Camp) the cops (AFP, GNR) got worked over (Check the OZ news in the morning). Anyway i’m out of this shithole soon but i’m sorry to say I’ll think i’ll back sooner rather than later.
One other thing the Kiwi Army are up to there old habits again so much the spending on the forces since Labour been in but its more than what Nat’s did to the forces when i was in the NZ Army.
August 23rd, 2006 at 1:44 am
That silly bitch and her followers couldn’t make a peacekeepers asshole between them. The UN has turn ET into a shitfight, its alot worst now than under Interfet and I was here for Interfet. The UN has done bugger all to the place, oversea aid has been misspent or poured down the the hole. Tonight we had rds down range at the airport (At the IDP Camp) the cops (AFP, GNR) got worked over (Check the OZ news in the morning). Anyway i’m out of this shithole soon but i’m sorry to say I’ll think i’ll back sooner rather than later.
One other thing the Kiwi Army are up to there old habits again so much the spending on the forces since Labour been in but its more than what Nat’s did to the forces when i was in the NZ Army.
August 23rd, 2006 at 8:37 am
Anyone notice that China is the fastest growing economy in the world? Russia has recently paid off ALL it’s Soviet era debt and it too is well on it’s way to recover from the catastrophic IMF forced bankrupcy of the early 90′s. Both countries appear to be have capable, pragmatic leaderships, and as much as we can deplore major elements of their human rights record…these nations are the resurgent players on the block. Ignoring them is not the smart option.
Welcome to the future….turns out US style capitalism may not have been quite so universally triumphant after all.
August 23rd, 2006 at 9:08 am
The UN has turn [sic] ET into a shitfight. And what did Timor look like before the UN intervention?
Ongoing and systematic terrorisation and murder of the civilian population by Kopassus (Indonesian special forces), that’s what. If Ex means that the UN hasn’t done a good job of development and reconstruction, then fair call. But Australia has a poor record in the international development field too, and the problems in Timor are only superficially those of violence, and much more to do with the fact that there are large numbers of unemployed young men, caused by chronic poverty and an as yet unreconstructed economy.
Timor may be very poor and underdeveloped, but Australia isn’t helping at all by trying to steal all its oil. They’re trying to say Australian territory extends all the way to the continental shelf, in blatant violation of international law.
I don’t get those of you who are arguing that Australia should get away with this….
August 24th, 2006 at 7:59 am
What i meant by is that the UN has not done a very good job at rebuilding the country etc since the handover from Interfet. Anyway got dates for RTA lastnight so i’m out of here.