Culture & Immigration
September 26th, 2006 at 10:38 am by David FarrarThomas Lifson states:
It is quite insulting and patronizing to immigrate to a country and expect it to adapt to the very things one left behind. This is the behavior of a conqueror, not an immigrant.
By definition, an immigrant asks for the privilege of being allowed to live in a country not his or her own. Immigrants have no right to demand change. No more than I have a right to barge into your house and demand you rearrange the furniture, knock out the wall between the kitchen and family room, and paint the parlor walls a different color.
An immigrant stipulates that the country to which he or she goes has a superior system. Without such an attraction, why else leave behind family, friends, and the attachments of sentiment?
Do you agree or disagree and why?
Hat Tip: Tim Blair
Related posts:
- The Dutch-Muslim Culture War
- Consistency on Immigration
- SSC Report into the NZ Immigration Service
- Dom Post on Immigration Service
September 26th, 2006 at 11:02 am
I couldn’t agree more
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 11:04 am
Tim may have more of a leg to stand on if European immigrants to NZ and Australia had not done rather more than “rearrange the furniture, knock out the wall between the kitchen and family room, and paint the parlor walls a different color”
It comes back to cultural arrogance, our culture is perfect and anyone who disgrees can sod off back to where they came from.
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 11:09 am
Is Tim Blair an Aborigine?
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 11:14 am
Immigration and colonisation are two different issues.
My impression is that most immigrants are generally quite proud to identify with their new home country.
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 11:16 am
Problems arise when NZers are actively seeking workers, whether skilled or unskilled in a globally competitive market. The concept of ‘immigration’ does not apply to short term work visas that some of these positions initially start with. However in order to make these people comfortable, good customer service requires that there be suitable temples, food, etc to service their needs otherwise they go elsewhere.
So, yes, if we are importing these people for our own economic or social needs we need to supply relevant culture as well. If they are here because they are refugees from despotic regimes then I agree with the writer, but those people are in the minority.
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 11:17 am
As an immigrant myself I can tell you there can be other reasons for immigrating. It might be family considerations, the need for a better climate for health reasons, or for business reasons. Rather than saying the country you go to is better it might only be better in some respects than others.
While I agree you can’t demand change it is irksome when you suggest change to be told if you don’t like it go back where you came from.
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 11:17 am
The settlers to Australia changed everything. They used force to to this. The Aborigines could not oppose this due to various factors. We as modern day NZers have the option to oppose any such immigration which seeks to change us. That is our right. Maori tried way back when but also failed due to various factors. That was their right.
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 11:18 am
Sorry my mistake, Blair is quoting Thomas Lifson, who seems to be another wacky right-wing American pundit (not a Native American either I would wager)
The complete article is here
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5882&search=Thomas
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 11:20 am
I’m not so sure about that either. If Helen Clark starts ordering the extermination of straight white guys (and thanks to reading the comments here at Kiwiblog I know that’s scheduled to happen any day now) and I have to flee to, say, Indonesia, and apply for refugee status I’d rather not have to start getting up at 6 AM to pray to Allah in exchange for a shelter to sleep in and some second hand clothes.
I think we should extend our own refugees the same courtesy.
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 11:26 am
A matter of degrees though. We don’t expect immigrants to adopt any particular religion, politcial point of view or lifestyle but we also have particular valuesand issues, eg regarding the treatment of women, that we hold as non-negotiable.
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 11:28 am
Danyl
But if your religion included ritual sacrifice of virgins and you chose Indonesia as a destination, a country that did not allow sacrifice of virgins then you would be expected to cease your practice, no?
You may then choose to go to another destination where your practices are tolerated and apply to be a refugee to that place.
It really is where you draw the line and I don’t expect that we would get unanimity on that anytime soon.
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 11:32 am
There is a big difference between acts that we do not tolerate whatever the cultural origin (female genital mutilation comes to mind) to asserring that immigrants have to entirely drop their culture and completely adopt the new nations customs in everything.
Lifson is writing in the context of a, rather nasty, US immigration debate. The right wing is pushing the idea that hispanic immigration will lead to a “reconquista” by hispanics of Texas, California and New Mexico, and therefore immigrants are merely the advance force of an invasion.
Not really relevent to here.
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 11:34 am
n. morrison says it all.
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 11:40 am
I would agree with the writer in the main, especially where immigration is driven by immigrant choice (and this includes choosing to escape persecution etc by becoming a refugee).
However, Kent’s point is very very good. To the extent we’re importing labour rather than ‘allowing immigration’ we’re obligated to provide some accommodations as part of our offer package. To the extent that these accommodations don’t impact negatively on the lives of those already resident, we should do it as much as possible.
Even in that context, though, they’re choosing our offer and if they do accept by coming here then they’re accepting all the non-negotiable cultural conditions.
An example: An employer may offer a certain employment condition to attract employees, but the employee will still be bound by the general code of conduct and ways of working for that employer in all other instances.
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 11:42 am
There are limits to the “When in Rome” approach, but it is not an unreasonable starting place for immigrants anywhere. Defining what the limts are is where the troubles arise.
I have no trouble with Muslims praying 5 times a day. I have no issue with Muslim women who choose to wear the hijab. I do have trouble with Muslims who won’t allow their daughters to go to school or to live in a way they choose that perhaps their parents and wider families disapprove of.
And I would have major issues with any religious group that told me I had to limit my freedom of speech because their religious sensibilities were offended. If I want to joke about Jesus being gay, or Mary being a whore, or Buddha being a fat lazy bastard, then that is my right.
So yes, if you (or I) immigrate anywhere, some level of accommodation to the country you are choosing to go to is essential.The Devil is in the detail however.
And as pointed out above, the differeence between colonisation and immigration is a real one, as is the difference between immigrants and refugees, these are different debates, and not one that should be used to cloud this issue.
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 11:45 am
Sure. But those values are enshrined in our laws. I don’t think anyone is arguing that immigrants don’t have to obey the laws of the country they move to (straw man alert!!!). Lifson is talking about culture, not law.
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 11:51 am
sonic, there’s nothing “nasty” about Americans objecting to uncontrolled immigration from Mexico. Leaving aside the obvious security implications, Mexicans (including their President) have openly stated that the intention is to take back areas of the U.S. they regard as rightfully theirs. They overwhelm schools and clinics in some areas and demand the “right” to have consular-issued identification cards accepted as valid. For schools to teach in their language.
Vote:The issue is complex and difficult and so far the nastiness has come from the Mexicans rather than Americans. (border clashes involving armed smugglers, demonstrations against attempts to round up illegal immigrants etc)
Sure, Mexicans form a large and convenient pool of unskilled labour, but that’s an equation that benefits both sides and with decent management it could work to everyone’s advantage.
September 26th, 2006 at 11:56 am
Meh, talk about your framing. As if we have a problem with immigrants “demanding change” or “expecting [us] to adapt.” We don’t, of course.
This is flatout wrong: “An immigrant stipulates that the country to which he or she goes has a superior system.” No, as Bob Howard notes, immigrants migrate because on balance they think things will be better than where they are, and we in this country accept them without requiring anything beyond whatever this year’s language/skill/health/financial hurdles are. In this country we don’t insist that they accept we have a superior system – unlike, say, Switzerland, where inspectors will descend to check you are serving proper Swiss food for dinner; better have that roesti recipe handy!
As to knocking out the walls, well sure. But I don’t object to someone suggesting a little redecoration. They may well be right.
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 11:58 am
Law is an easy one. If you can’t stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
As regards culture, if it’s not against the law, then in their own space they can go ahead. They want to wear particular clothing because of the family tradition? Fine. They want to open a Chinese restaurant? Go ahead (but stick to the health and labour regs). They want to buy a block of land and put a mosque up on it? Sure. But don’t wake me up with yelling out at sunrise. You can buy alarm clocks like the rest of us.
But don’t expect us to start changing our way of life to accommodate you. I don’t want to have to learn ten hundred languages just to serve the ten hundred immigrant communities who stubbornly insist on not getting acquainted with English or Maori. I might choose to, to make life easier for them, but shouldn’t feel obliged to. And don’t expect us to give you an exemption from laws (as the oft-cited example, treatment of women) on cultural grounds.
The cultural issue is not an immigrant seeking to preserve his or her own culture, but rather expecting us to have to change to suit.
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 12:01 pm
Our culture is refelcted in our law. So to an extent we do require immigrants to adjust to our culture. I’m not saying that this is such a big deal for most immigrants, but in certain circumstances is it significant. I’m for more immirgation and don’t loose much sleep over the issue.
Most 1st genaeration immigrants go out of their way to identify with their new country – often outdoing locals in my experience.
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 12:10 pm
The problem is not the Exclusive Brethren.
Vote:That is a stupid abdication of responsibility
by an increasingly unrepresentative Parliament.
For those of you who have not read the Pope’s speech please take the time to read it.
Western tolerance of Islam will allow this Medievelism to take root throughout our societies. It is not too late in New Zealand
to save free thinking and expression, a belief in scientific advance and equal rights etc. The battle is , I fear, already lost for the UK.
September 26th, 2006 at 12:26 pm
As an immigrant myself, I have adopted the lifestyle and certain cultural aspects of New Zealand. It is not realistic to expect all immigrants to accept all cultural values. Some values are just too different to appeal eg. binge drinking, drugs, gangs, crime and violence etc. Some of us left that behind and didn’t accept it then and won’t accept it now. The value many immigrants bring to this country cannot be over emphasised. The skills and financial benefits they bring have driven this economy for years, so much so that now that migration has declined, we are again facing skill shortages.
Vote:In a democracy, NOBODY can force their will on anybody else. It is personal choice. If you don’t fit in, move on and find somewhere you do.
No doubt we will all find things to love or hate about New Zealand, but then so do many Kiwi’s. That is democracy.
Lest you forget, every Pakeha and Maori is an immigrant to this country.
September 26th, 2006 at 12:44 pm
This is an interesting subject. In specific reply to the person entitled ‘candida’ – I am a native-born son of NZ and I strongly object to being called an immigrant in my own country.
Vote:There is a substantial difference between being a native and being an immigrant, so please stop muddying the waters by claiming that ‘every Pakeha and Maori is an immigrant to this country’ – it is untrue, it is offensive.
I have considerable experience in being an immigrant in other countries and cultures, even ones that don’t speak English., it never occurred to me that the locals were immigrants, and I am sure they would have been very offended at the suggestion.
September 26th, 2006 at 12:54 pm
I agree with rich – candida’s comments are strange and inaccurate:
I did not migrate here from anywhere else, neither did my parents, grandparents, nor more than half my great-grandparents. Neither have my nephews, neices or my great neice. We are very much from here.
To say “everyone comes from somewhere else” is meaningless – ultimately we all come from Africa, but so what?
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 12:55 pm
As a matter of principle agree. There can always be “but what if” arguments made to challenge a general thesis.
It is a matter of balance. Imho the French banning of headscarves was OTT – requiring Muslim drivers to unviel is a pratical reality.
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 1:01 pm
My statement was not intended to offend but merely to point out that, at some stage, our forefathers left their country of birth and relocated themselves elsewhere. This is true of virtually every nationality. Immigrant is merely an extension of “migrant” .
Vote:By your own definition then, how long do I have to live in New Zealand to no longer be classified as an immigrant?
September 26th, 2006 at 1:26 pm
Stuff It If I go to Saudia Arabia then I expect them to serve me a nice cold beer in a bar. And why not.Plenty of people come to NZ and expect to act as they have done in their own country and if anyone complains they are told not to be intolerant. It cuts both ways. Yeah Right!
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 1:29 pm
I agree with the writer, also.
I don’t mind if immigrants want to practise their own religion or customs etc in the privacy of their own homes. It’s when they complain about our customs (perhaps they conflict with their own) and want us to change our customs to suit themselves – e.g getting rid of christian prayer in schools because they are Muslim.
I have to draw the line at that; we are a Christian country (or supposed to be) so why should we alter the way we do things because it conflicts with an outsider? They should realize that they are in our country and respect our ways instead of trying to change it to theirs.
If a Christian were to go to a Muslim country and demand they stop Muslim prayers in school because it offends him, do you think they would stop?
NO WAY! They’d probably have him killed.
That is the difference. We are very open in the West to folks being able to practise their own ways etc, but it doesn’t work in reverse. Over in Iran etc, it is their religion or death.
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 1:31 pm
“Plenty of people come to NZ and expect to act as they have done in their own country and if anyone complains they are told not to be intolerant.”
I just don’t think that’s true, not in any significant numbers anyway. I’m not sure what David is even trying to do by posing the Lifson quote – to me it just doesn’t describe a problem we suffer from here, and thus is irrelevant.
But if it comes to that, tolerance, freedom of conscience and egalitarianism are all *supposed* to be local values. I would expect immigrants to exercise and enjoy them as much as anyone else.
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 1:36 pm
I’m sure your subsequent beating and prison sentence would introduce you to many interesting aspects of Saudi culture.
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 1:40 pm
“we are a Christian country (or supposed to be)”
I think we get to decide what kind of country we are, and the collective “we” is made up of the citizenry of New Zealand. I’m neither a Christian or a Muslim, and I don’t recall being required to convert to Christianity when I accepted my New Zealand citizenship. So I don’t think it’s unreasonable that I would have issues with my taxes funding Christian prayer. I’d object just as strongly to funding Islamic activities, and particularly to exposing children to it before they’ve had sufficient opportunity to develop critical thinking and reasoning sufficient to understand and analyse the points from all sides.
Ultimately I think we have to accept here that immigration is a transaction, rather than a unilateral acceptance by the immigrant that The New Zealand Way Is Best. Part of that transaction is an agreement by the immigrant to obey the laws of the country and abide by the terms of their acceptance of their citizenship. I have little sympathy for migrants who come here and fail to respect the legal structures of the country. But culture? Shit, can you honestly say that there even IS a single defined New Zealand culture? I can’t find it. If I drive to West Auckland I can find a different culture from South Auckland and from the North Shore. If I walk from Rationalist House on Symonds Street down to the Anglican cathedral in Parnell I’m pretty sure I’ll again encounter a dramatic shift in local culture.
If you can’t define what you’re asking migrants to accept then how the hell do you expect them to agree to the terms of it?
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 1:43 pm
Interesting how the immediate response from the wingnuts is to fixate on Muslims. As if we have a terrible problem with our Muslim citizens in New Zealand (which we don’t).
Just waiting for the Chinese-bashing to start now…
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 1:48 pm
I thought we lived in a secular country, I think prayer in schools no matter what religion. Teaching religious philosphy along side other philosphies I have no problem with. In fact this would be a really good idea. Some ethics taught in schools would be brilliant.
Highly recommend popping over to public address and checking out the speaker posts on Immigration/Refugees.
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 2:01 pm
err…you are quite right. New Zealand is so diverse from the many different cultural influences that to even think you have ONE New Zealand culture, is a dream. As a migrant, I am free to accept the “culture” which fits me best. I am not at liberty to demand changes that don’t suit me. Like everything in life, we make our decisions based on personal preference. Hell, what next? Are migrants going to be expected to vote for the party in power at the time as a sign of gratitude? New Zealand is a great country BECAUSE of the cultural differences. It is no secret, the All Blacks are the world’s best because of the Fijiians, Samoans, Maori’s.
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 2:03 pm
When I say ‘Christian’, I mean as in the West etc. It used to be described as Christian civilization. I don’t mean overtly..
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 2:07 pm
The problem with Muslim immigration seems to be not neccessarily with the original immigrants but with the succeeding generation as evidenced in Sydney, London, and France, and Germany recently.We should learn from them just as Australia and now Switzerland have…Perhaps every immigrant should be required to have a comprehensive understanding of the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi before they arrive. We could make an exception perhaps for Thais providing they paint and tile a few state houses before their permits are approved.
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 2:10 pm
Fletch, pardon me for being confused: “e.g getting rid of christian prayer in schools because they are Muslim.”
If it comes to that, NZ state schools have been secular by law long before we had a significant Muslim minority – since 1877 in fact. There are two possible reasons for this, and you can take your pick: 1. The founders of this country knew all about sectarian strife, and wisely sought to prevent it by banning all religion in school; 2. The founders of this country were largely Protestants who wanted to ensure the Catholics didn’t get state funding to teach their Popish nonsense. Either way, it is nonsense to blame Muslims for getting rid of Christian prayer in NZ schools (which as noted have been secular by law since 1877).
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 2:11 pm
“Perhaps every immigrant should be required to have a comprehensive understanding of the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi before they arrive”
I can think of quite a few Kiwis who could do with being educated on that suject as well.
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 2:13 pm
candida – deciding just when someone ceases being an immigrant and becomes a member of the new country varies very much from person to person and place to place.
I know Australians who have been here more than half their lives who still see themselves as foreigners here, and I know Pakistani immigrants who regard themselves as true blue kiwis.
I lived in Turkey for 8 years, was fluent in the language, often mistaken for a Turk by the time I left, and even seriously thought about taking out citizenship, but I knew I would never be Turkish.
It is beyond me to say when or if you will become a ‘real’ New Zealander. But I am quite sure I’m not an immigrant here.
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 2:20 pm
“In a democracy, NOBODY can force their will on anybody else.”
Rubbish. For starters, a theoretical 51% are able to force their will on 49% of the population. Secondly, the government of the day is able to impose the agenda of minor coalition partners on the population as well.
Sure, it’s possible to vote them out of office but the succeeding government very, very rarely repeals legislation.
“I can think of quite a few Kiwis who could do with being educated on that suject as well.”
Vote:I can think of a lot of Kiwis who are sick of the Treaty and sick of having it rammed down their throats.
September 26th, 2006 at 2:37 pm
“For starters, a theoretical 51% are able to force their will on 49% of the population”. Crap. You get the opportunity to vote for the party which best represents your needs. If that party is defeated, it is obvious you are in the minority. This is where Democracy takes over – the will of the majority. If you don’t like it, start your own political party and see if you can garner enough support to get elected.
Vote:Many things may not sit well with you but the majority have, and should have, the final say.
September 26th, 2006 at 3:01 pm
Stephen, but the West is still pretty much described as ‘Christian’, or used to be. It was largely founded on Christian principles, whether we still want to adhere to them or not. In fact, under the seat on which every English king or queen sits in when they are crowned, lies the Coronation Stone which comes down to us from Biblical times – from Jacob etc. In a way, our whole civilisation is based on that.
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 3:06 pm
Candida, it may be the “will of the majority” but that’s a long, long way from your statement that in a democracy “nobody can force their will on anybody else”.
Vote:They can. The fact that it’s a majority doing so doesn’t alter the fact.
September 26th, 2006 at 3:08 pm
Fletch, are you a British Israelite? I don’t think there are many other people who believe the Stone of Scone is anything other than a small rock, or that our civilisation is based on it in any way at all.
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 3:11 pm
Floowing the Coronation Stone link above leads thu to this set of maps supposedly outlining migrations of the Israelite tribes, it’s called “THEY WENT THATTAWAY”!
http://asis.com/~stag/migratio.html
The list of those descended from such migration is given as, amongst others -
“Khumri, Cimmerians, Sakkas, Sacasene, Sacasune, Schythians, Cimbri, Thraco-Cimmerians, Celt, Galatians, Germans, Saxons, Normans, Danes, Gimira, Kimmeroii, Iskuza, Gauls, Angles, Picts, Iberes, Scots, Basques, Bretons, Goths, Vandals, Lombards, Franks, Burgundians, Ostrogoths, Daci, Belgae, Massagetae.”
Doesn’t leave much.
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 3:16 pm
Candida
Vote:Show me a Government in the last 10 years that has actually had a majority and therefore a mandate to change anything at all
September 26th, 2006 at 3:18 pm
Perhaps I shpould have said a Government that clearly represents a majority of the voting population
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 3:18 pm
Completely disagree. Argument rests on the premise that by living in a country, you somehow share ownership of it.
Vote:The conqueror he speaks of is perfectly moral. I see no problem with leaving behind family, friends and going to a less developed region and promoting modern values like secularism there. Immigrants can damage change all they want, its what the change is that matters. And all they can fairly damand, is their rights are protected.
It doesn’t matter how long you or your family has resided in your country of birth, you have no right to injustice. Example: one ethnic group has no right to force its values over another. Heritage or “I Was Born Here First” do not justify ones creed. Ethnic nationalism is a sham – It is against the dignity inherient in every individual
September 26th, 2006 at 3:26 pm
Stephen, perhaps we ARE all british Israelites..lol
As the text says, ‘All the kings of Israel, the whole nation, then the Kingdom of Judah, were crowned standing on or beside this Stone.’, and now all the kings and queens of England are.
It sure is interesting, anyway, and if it’s true (and who says it isn’t?) then our whole society is founded on those same biblical principles.
Fascinating..
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 3:37 pm
You don’t actually believe that is the real stone do you Fletch?
The real one was hidden in 1950.
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 3:45 pm
Sure, why isn’t it the real one? Who can say it’s not? And even if it isn’t ‘the one’, it is considered to be so by those who put it there with their intent to stand by those biblical laws established long ago in the time of Israel and Judah – to carry on those same laws and precepts.
But sure, I agree that a lot of folks nowadays will probably think all that is meaningless.
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 3:49 pm
As you may know Fletch the stone was stolen by Scottish Nationalists in 1950. Many say that the one returned was a copy.
Indeed when the stone was “returned” to Scotland a fwe years ago most nationalists just laughed saying they still had the real one hidden.
More here
http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/6-29-2004-56053.asp
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 4:08 pm
Really puts Aristotle and Jesus in their place.
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 9:41 pm
Baxter said ….”Perhaps every immigrant should be required to have a comprehensive understanding of the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi before they arrive.”
Pray tell, what exactly are these so called Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi and in what legislation of this country are they defined?
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 9:43 pm
Baxter said ….”Perhaps every immigrant should be required to have a comprehensive understanding of the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi before they arrive.”
Pray tell, what exactly are these so called Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi and in what legislation of this country are they defined?
Vote:September 26th, 2006 at 10:42 pm
Sonic opines: “Blair is quoting Thomas Lifson, who seems to be another wacky right-wing American pundit (not a Native American either I would wager)”
This is called ad hominem. It means engaging in attacking the person rather than the argument. Its a tactic used by those who dont have an argument themselves, or they have one they know will be rightly laughed at. I suspect in your case its a bit of both, and your other statements confirm this.
The actual quote is perfectly reasonable and right. It is wrong for immigrants to go to a country and then demand that the country accepts without question every single aspect of their culture. I find female genital mutilation a disgusting practice. I also find the claim by some Muslim extremists that their host countries surrender to Islam unacceptable. Most normal people do.
There is nothing wrong in making the effort to assimilate, within reason, to your new country. I say this as an immigrant to NZ myself.
Oh and I’m also Native American, and most Native Americans in the Southwest are very much concerned about the vast numbers of Hispanics crossing the border, illegaly and otherwise.
You may want to stop drinking the Liberal koolaid there sonic. Your starting to sound like a cliche.
Vote:September 27th, 2006 at 4:24 am
Isn’t it so typically American from Thomas Lifson to say this? “US is the best in the world”. Isn’t it a little bit nazist too?
IMMIGRATION (in NZ) IS NOT AN OCCUPATION OR INVASION, IT IS ALSO NOT A PRISON. IMMIGRATION IS MORE LIKE A MARRIAGE, WHERE BOTH PARTIES ARE ATTRACTED TO EACH OTHER AND THERE IS A MUTUAL BENEFIT. THEY BOTH NEED TO ADJUST. What kind of a spouse will NZ be? Repressive, intolerant, abusive or…
You decide.
I lived under soviet occupation for 19 years, I lived in Germany, in China and now in New Zealand. I am an immigrant here.
Having lived abroad for so many years, I have mixed with immigrants most of the time. And I can tell you that immigrants(by choice) as a rule are very proactive people. And they WILL change any country they go to. They WILL influence the lifes of the people around them. Just accept it.
One little fact, all of my Chinese friends (from the time I was in China) have left China. Most of them had really good potential in China. Why did they leave? China was too slow to accommodate the change that was happening in their heads and they needed to leave to satisfy their creative selves. They were not economical emigrants and not political asylum seekers.
If we (NZ) want to attract this kind of educated, creative and proactive people, it would be wise to be more tolerant to them and to the reasonable with what they want.
Vote:September 27th, 2006 at 4:27 am
Isn’t this so typically American from Thomas Lifson to say this? “US is the best in the world”. Isn’t it a little bit nazist too?
IMMIGRATION (in NZ) IS NOT AN OCCUPATION OR INVASION, IT IS ALSO NOT A PRISON. IMMIGRATION IS MORE LIKE A MARRIAGE, WHERE BOTH PARTIES ARE ATTRACTED TO EACH OTHER AND THERE IS A MUTUAL BENEFIT. THEY BOTH NEED TO ADJUST. What kind of a spouse will NZ be? Repressive, intolerant, abusive or…
You decide.
I lived under soviet occupation for 19 years, I lived in Germany, in China and now in New Zealand. I am an immigrant here.
Having lived abroad for so many years, I have mixed with immigrants most of the time. And I can tell you that immigrants(by choice) as a rule are very proactive people. And they WILL change any country they go to. They WILL influence the lifes of the people around them. Just accept it.
One little fact, all of my Chinese friends (from the time I was in China) have left China. Most of them had really good potential in China. Why did they leave? China was too slow to accommodate the change that was happening in their heads and they needed to leave to satisfy their creative selves. They were not economical emigrants and not political asylum seekers.
If we (NZ) want to attract this kind of educated, creative and proactive people, it would be wise to be more tolerant to them and to the reasonable with what they want.
Vote:September 27th, 2006 at 1:44 pm
Fisiani…I was being a little bit sarky about the treaty.I think it is a lot of nonsense and the principles are anything the tangata whenua like to dream up…I believe all immigrants should be able to speak English and that it is not in the National Interest to admit Moslems.
Vote:Stephen…I went to a NZ state school and in the Primary Classes we used to have a weekly lesson from the various Protestant Ministers. Invariably they reminded us of the hellfire that awaited us if we transgressed against the commandments…Seemed to work too.
September 27th, 2006 at 4:32 pm
“I went to a NZ state school and in the Primary Classes we used to have a weekly lesson from the various Protestant Ministers.”
Yeah, that can happen if the Board of Trustees secures consent from the parents, but it’s not part of the curriculum and not compulsory.
“Invariably they reminded us of the hellfire that awaited us if we transgressed against the commandments…Seemed to work too.”
Really? I always spent RI in the library, and turned out OK – possibly better, owing to the extra reading I got in. Whereas the real hellraisers were among the poor unfortunates stuck with the sermon.
Vote:September 27th, 2006 at 4:44 pm
Baxter – I agree – the Treaty is a millstone around the neck of NZ in general. It will for ever and a day be held as an account of how the ” injustices ” of the past become the sin of todays generation. Brash was right when he said claims must be settled completely within a certain number of years. We cannot be held to ransom for everything they fail to achieve.
Vote:I agree Muslims pose a threat to any western civilization and should not be allowed to integrate. However, I would like to add to the list of “persona non grata” – anybody who cannot make an economic contribution to NZ. This would include the number of P.Islanders who are allowed in and will retire on the benefit without doing an honest days work.
NZ is not a charity and the reason our taxes can’t be reduced is because we have an enormous pool of beneficiaries to support. For able bodied peoplecapable of working, the benefit should only be available for 3 months or so. Enough time to find a job, I think.
September 27th, 2006 at 4:53 pm
Shorter Candida
Bloody Maoris, but those muslims are just as bad, and as for Pacific Islanders, they all bludge the dole, kick out the lot of them I say or string em all up.
I had that Oswald Mosley in the back of the cab once, lovely chap.
Vote:September 27th, 2006 at 7:18 pm
sonic, not very PC but I may have to agree with you, just quietly.
Vote:September 27th, 2006 at 7:53 pm
Perhaps I should point out that 92.4% of eligible Pacific Islanders in NZ are employed. And the biggest group of beneficiaries is superannuitants. And that given PI life expectancy disproportionately few of them will collect their super or enjoy it for long. And the the biggest migration from the Islands to NZ was during the late 60s and early 70s when we wanted their labour. And that therefore irrespective of so-called political correctness, candida has not only a barking racism to be ashamed of, but *factual* incorrectness as well.
Vote:September 27th, 2006 at 11:00 pm
“I may have to agree with you, just quietly”
Not that I agree, but respect for being straight.
Vote:September 27th, 2006 at 11:29 pm
Immigration smimmergration.. what bollocks..
There is no such thing as immigration, there is only leftists being brought into the country by Helen Klark and her greedy for power acolytes to boost Labour’s share of the vote.
Statistics in Europe show that the greater majority of new arrivals (I think around 80-90%) vote for left wing parties.
Transferring voters from inwardly collapsing sub standard countries to western democracies is not about anything but keeping the left in power, allowing them to retain the control over others that they crave above everything.
Vote:September 27th, 2006 at 11:30 pm
Coupla komatua imams on the way I reckon.
Vote:Doubling ya victim status is an opportunity not to be missed.
And it’ll definately turn a dollar.
September 28th, 2006 at 8:16 am
“Statistics in Europe show that the greater majority of new arrivals (I think around 80-90%) vote for left wing parties.”
Probably because most European right-wing parties spend about half their time attacking immigrants. Maybe something to do with it, eh?
Vote:September 28th, 2006 at 8:23 am
Err, when would anyone whose brain is so dysfunctional as to believe in leftism ever be able to discern the real reason for anything? You can come to your own delusional conclusions concerning what is “probable”, but no matter how hard you try, you’ll never understand the real reasons. It is the leftist’s lot in life to NEVER REALLY GET IT…
If it was any different, you wouldn’t be a leftist…
Vote:September 28th, 2006 at 9:07 am
“There is no such thing as immigration”
Really?
“there is (sic) only leftists being brought into the country”
Is there a form you fill in? do they have to read one of your posts and if they do not burst out laughing they are excluded?
“Statistics in Europe”
Got a link?
Vote:September 28th, 2006 at 9:34 am
Redbaiter, have you spent any time in Europe actually reading the right-wing daily papers? Every other bloody story is “Asylum seekers this”, “Illegal immigrants that”, “Clash of cultures this”, “Send ‘em all home that”. Who the fuck do you expect anybody walking into that environment from another country to vote for? They might as well be ticking a box saying “Yes please, introduce more nightmarish hoops for me to jump through in life, I’m really having too much fun right now”
Next you’ll be telling me that – shock, horror – not many British immigrants read the Daily Mail and that for some reason Asian people aren’t that fond of New Zealand First… It’s all a big leftist plot, I’m telling you!
Vote:September 28th, 2006 at 12:13 pm
err,
You are arguing with the resident piece of dogshit. Hold your nose, step around carefully.
RB,
When was the English language ever more wasted than in your hands? All this contemptuous trash talk you dish out is a just a flimsy cover your own complete lack of actual ideas, other than what you are regurgitating from an Ayn Rand paperback you read when when you were still a spotty boy.
And please feel free to whine about being “silenced” and mocked..it just takes you further and further into the “untouchable” zone.
Vote:September 28th, 2006 at 2:33 pm
“Got a link?”
Significant Sonic, that you need to be directed to such information. See? As I keep saying, you leftist always only know one side of the story.
Err, the major benefit to immigration is in votes for Helen Klark.
I challenge you to present here one net benefit to this ocuntry that arises from the concept of multiculturalism.
Vote:September 28th, 2006 at 2:38 pm
RB, I’m asking you to back up your stupid claim. I know asking for evidence of nonsense statements is unusual for you, as we know you don’t live in the drab “reality” that the rest of us do.
Back up your statement or withdraw it, simple enough?
“I challenge you to present here one net benefit to this ocuntry that arises from the concept of multiculturalism.”
Hopefully, if we keep going, you will leave. That would be a benefit!
Vote:September 28th, 2006 at 2:44 pm
So the statement is nonsense is it Sonic? Well, if you have no information to rebut my claim, how would you know that??
Vote:September 28th, 2006 at 3:04 pm
What’s up? google not find you a source yet?
Caught again.
Vote:September 28th, 2006 at 3:40 pm
“Caught again”
Sonic, I’ve got a 50 gig data base, and I can back up any opinion I have. You’re an ignorant fool, and with your typically leftist rush to judgement,I’ve caused you to prove that once again. You know how the fatties always try to be humourous to hide their shame Sonic..??? Its the same with you and leftism….
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/890/print
Excerpt-
According to the Institute for Migration and Ethnic Studies of the University of Amsterdam 80% of the non-indigenous electorate voted for Labour. This explains why cities such as Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Breda and Arnhem succumbed to the Left. 84% of the Turks voted for the PvdA; 81% of the Antillians/Surinamese did likewise. Of the Moroccans 78% voted Labour and 12% voted Green Left.
The center-right VVD received only 1% of the immigrant vote.
Vote:September 28th, 2006 at 4:20 pm
The Brussels Journal! that right-wing racist muslim baiting rag. I wouldn’t quote that to prove the sky was blue.
40 mins and that was the best you can find?
You may remember your original claim was
“Statistics in Europe show that the greater majority of new arrivals ( vote for left wing parties.”
And now we have
“nutcase racist crank says 80% of black people in Holland do not vote for parties who hate black people.”
If I was you I’d drop it now.
Vote:September 28th, 2006 at 4:38 pm
For those that might suspect I am throwing the word racist around for no reason, check out this.
In May 2006 he posted “Geef ons Wapens!” (Give us Weapons!) from his blog, The text, originally in Dutch, was written in the context of the Joe Van Holsbeeck murder, which was originally thought to have been perpetrated by people of North African decent (but later found to be perpetrated by Polish immigrants of Gypsy (Sinti) decent).
The predators have teeth and claws. The predators have knives. Starting when they’re small, they learn at their yearly offerings how to cut the throats of warm-blooded livestock. We get sick at the sight of blood, but they don’t. They’re trained and they’re armed. We can’t even carry pepperspray in our pockets. They have switchblades and butchers knives and they know how to use them.[1]
Two days later one of his supporters travelled to Antwerp and legally purchased a hunting rifle from a local gun dealer. About ten minutes before noon, he began his rampage in the city centre by a shot in the back of a woman of Turkish descent who was seated at 6 metres on a bench reading a book; Songul Koç was severely wounded. He reloaded his rifle and continued. Passing a pregnant Malian nanny, Oulemata Niangadou, and her two-year-old Caucasian charge Luna Drowart, he turned and shot each of them in the back at close range, killing both instantly.
You can see why RB is a fan.
Vote:September 28th, 2006 at 4:59 pm
Sorry, re-reading that I can see that I may have inadvertently suggested that RB would support that sort of violence
Vote:There is no basis for that, and I am happy to clear that up.
September 28th, 2006 at 5:01 pm
Hahaha.. 30 lines of raving disconnected worthless factless crap..
“According to the Institute for Migration and Ethnic Studies of the University of Amsterdam 80% of the non-indigenous electorate voted for Labour”
That’s the fact you need to deal with you blathering leftist smear merchant..
Vote:September 28th, 2006 at 5:04 pm
I clicked through the link, there is no survey there at all.
Find a decent source mate.
Vote:September 28th, 2006 at 5:28 pm
Sonic, all you have done with your feverish attack on what you assumed was the source is prove that as always, the leftist mindset is not attuned to dealing with facts. Whatever group or whoever may be behind the Brussels Journal, that you might despise them in no way demonstrates that the facts are right or wrong. As always, as a leftist, your first reaction is to reach for the smear….!
The facts you read on that page are almost a direct transcription of the University Study. You couldn’t find the link? Yeah sure Sonic.
http://www2.fmg.uva.nl/imes/verkiezingen.htm
Quote- Research by the Institute for Migration and Ethnic Studies of the University of Amsterdam during the municipal elections of March 7th, 2006 showed that 80% of the ethnic minority voters choose for the socialist party PvdA. -Unquote
Wake up. The smear, that tactic that has been your principal strategy for so long, isn’t going to work for you anymore Sonic.
Vote:September 28th, 2006 at 6:14 pm
RB
How do you reconcile your complaints about Sonic (and other “leftists”) resorting to smears, with your use of:
“…the leftist mindset is not attuned to dealing with facts”
“…As always, as a leftist, your first reaction is to reach for the smear….!”
That’s in one post.
Other smears include:
Knuckle draggers, uneducated, academics (seems you dislike both educated and educated people), blathering, ignorant fool, and this champ:
“It is the leftist’s lot in life to NEVER REALLY GET IT…
If it was any different, you wouldn’t be a leftist.”
Vote:September 28th, 2006 at 6:28 pm
Weizguy.. your level of comprehension and your knowledge of the English language is so crippled I just don’t have the time or the interest in dealing with it. Maybe someone more patient will explain the simple differences to you between a smear alleging some kind of indecent or immoral behaviour and the simple expression of opinion on the thinking abilities of leftists. Your embarrasingly infantile comments are just another glaring example of the kind of behaviour that causes me to come to the conclusions I do. You don’t like me calling leftists a bunch of uncivilized half educated dimbulbs, then stop supplying the evidence that I’m right. ..and why can’t you argue on the issues you sad insecure neo-communist fuckwit?
Vote:September 28th, 2006 at 7:02 pm
Redbaiter, don’t I recall you lecturing me on politeness the other day? Or are you a different Redbaiter?
Vote:September 28th, 2006 at 7:10 pm
Err.. keep coming back, I’ll lecture you on a lot of things.. you should consider yourself lucky I care.. as for the previous idiot.. Good grief.. thicker than three short planks.. criticising me for calling leftists idiots when he can’t even spell his own fucken name..!!
Vote:September 28th, 2006 at 8:01 pm
I think RB’s two different people. One of them is quite coherent and interesting, particularly when discussing internal National party politics. And the other is a troll, a literal red-baiter, whose principal MO is insult your motives, intelligence and morals. We’d all be best served by engaging with RB1, and leaving RB2 alone. RB2 lives up to his name and likes baiting you – why reward him with a bite?
Vote:September 28th, 2006 at 8:47 pm
Stephen- It is my honest belief that so called “immigration” is a con, and that its primary purpose is to increase the left vote during elections. I offered facts in support of this opinion, and I asked for anyone who opposed my view to tell me a net positive to multiculturalism. Did I get this question answered? No. Did I get any serious discussion on the issue? No. What did I get? I got accused of not knowing what I was talking about, I was accused of lying. I was told there was no such information. I was smeared as someone who supported random mass murder of immigrants.
I provided links to Universities studies supporting my claims. Were these links responded to in any meaningful way? No. What did I get? Four posts of off topic crap even after I have begged for discussion relating to the issue. I just look at what the left have posted here, and I ask myself, are these guys really so helpless that they can’t come up with any serious response to my theory?? Is incoherent non comprehending simian idiocy always going to be their default position??
I will not be intimidated by leftists and I will not ever accept that they hold the high moral ground or any kind of truly pre-eminent position in society. I consider their ideology to be a blight on civilization and a depressing brake on mankind’s spiritual and cultural development, our prosperity, our well being and our progress. I think that leftists are motivated by a pathological obsession with power. I think this period in time, when leftists held social and political ascendancy, as the world reaches higher levels of civilization, will be looked back on as a mini dark ages.
Now, I cannot always put these feeling aside when I’m dealing with leftists, but believe me, I am interested in the argument. When I enquired above concerning the net positives to multiculturalism, I was sincerely interested in hearing a response. Hopefully one that challenged my own ideas. Unsurprisingly, the response was woefully inadequate in that particular sense. In spite of how I view them, I do try to be polite to leftists, but I cannot (I am sorry) always guarantee I will be successful in that objective. Least of all whilst they are being rude to me.
Vote:September 28th, 2006 at 8:58 pm
So the claim that
“Statistics in Europe show that the greater majority of new arrivals ( vote for left wing parties.”
Has now resolved down to, in one local election in one city in Europe Amsterdam during the municipal elections of March 7th, 2006 80% of the ethnic minority voters choose for the socialist party PvdA.
The lion roars and produces a mouse.
Now RB if you ever roused youself to find out about Dutch politics you may find that the main conservative party is hardline anti-immigrant that they tried to take Dutch citizenship from one of their own MPs for lying on a form 10 years ago.
An “ethnic-minority” voter ticking the box for the Christian Democrats is about as likely as you voting Green.
If you look at the UK, you see many asian immigrants who are staunch Conservatives. They own small businesses, believe in hard work and low taxes. Model Tories.
What stops this happening here is, to be honest, the residual racism of sections of the right. You need those voters RB, not our problem if you chase them away.
Vote:September 29th, 2006 at 4:41 am
Redbaiter, now that I have seen some slight signs of intelligence in your heart felt post above (although your theories on immigration are insane, do you really believe that the majority of immigrants are from “inwardly collapsing sub standard countries”? Or do you just scare easily walking around Mt Roskill…), I ask you this:
If NZ is such backward, repressive, communist hell-hole filled with droning morons who blindly support our Dear Leader, why is it considered one of the best countries to do business in by the World Bank? Are they a bunch of commies too?
Why is it considered 1st in the world for protecting investors? Are investors dirty commies hiding under my bed?
What about registering property…oh yes 1st in the world. Fuckin dirty communist stalinist mao-lovin’ property owners.
Oh, I see, paying taxes… here we go. We are 10th best when it comes to paying taxes.
COMMIES ARGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH.
I think you’re a secret commie, REDbaiter,
Ugh.
Vote:September 29th, 2006 at 7:42 am
Phil, the report you refer to did not refer to NZ as the easiest place in the world to do business. As far as I know there’s no such official rating. NZ was declared the easiest place to start up a business based on a number of subjective factors that many would argue about. However, that’s a rating that’s pretty meaningless. The issue is not really starting a business, its keeping them running and internationally competitive that is the challenge. When businesses are forced to carry the burden of a large parasitical unproductive sector that is simultaneously beavering away at regulating and controlling and legislating them more and more every year, this task is becoming increasingly difficult. Last year NZ dropped one place on the Worlds Competitive Index and this year it dropped another. We’re now at number 23, just ahead of Estonia, Malaysia and Spain. Keep your head in the sand Phil, the smart hard working people will provide for you and every other moron like you who doesn’t know their arse from their elbow. Its the way Klark has designed it, and its why you and all the other morons keep voting for her. From each according to their ability, to each according to their need. Heard that anywhere before have you???
Vote:September 29th, 2006 at 7:57 am
Sonic, I notice that whatever you might think of my figures, you supply none of your own to rebut them, rather just a series of self serving assertions that remain unsubstantiated. Thanks, but in the light of any evidence to the contrary, I’ll keep thinking the way I do. Immigration is a ploy to keep Labour in government. Leftists will do anything for power. As you have split the country racially for political gain, you couldn’t care less about the socially destructive outcomes of mass immigration. Note that not you or any leftist has even tried to answer my question concerning net positive outcomes.
Vote:September 29th, 2006 at 8:59 am
Immigration statistics in Europe will be completely different from NZ. Europe does not have an open and proactive immigration policy that NZ does have.
Vote:September 29th, 2006 at 9:09 am
“Sonic, I notice that whatever you might think of my figures, you supply none of your own to rebut them”
Well I am certainly willing to concede that you have figures for one local election in one city. If you ever manage to find any that back up your wider claim please do not hesitate to get in touch.
Vote:September 29th, 2006 at 10:38 am
Redbaiter:
Okay, so you are going to completely ignore what the World Bank has to say about starting a business (I guess they do gather their information from notable communist supporters including PricewaterhouseCoopers and Lex Mundi), because “the issue is not really starting a business”.
So you point to the “Worlds Competitive Index”. I take it you mean the Global Competitiveness Report. Now I’m not going to dismiss it as meaningless. I fully accept its findings as valid. So we are 23rd in the list, and have dropped 2 places in 2 years. OH FUCK WE HAVE BEEN OVERTAKEN BY COMMIES! You were right all along redbaiter. Will you help me draw up lists of people I think are communists?
And what about those commie bastards China, where are they on the list…oh, well…fuck it they are COMMUNIST SCUM TOO! And KHELENINK KLARKKKK’S lunatic Stalinists want to sign some kind of COMMUNIST FREE TRADE DEAL!
Redbaiter, I think you are affected by paranoid delusions. You whine, “It’s not fair, we should be more competitive, it’s all the commies fault” Way I see it, any business that succeeds in a difficult environment is a damn good one, and there are a lot of successful businesses in NZ. Any business that insulted its clients by calling them communists would lose a lot of money. Do you own a business and if you do, do you talk to your clients like you post here?
If NZ really was a communist nation, there is no way in hell I would return there (I’m overseas at the moment, spending my hard-earned money I made there…I mean, ROUNDING UP SUPPORT FOR THE PEOPLE’S REVOLUTION OF NEW ZEALAND)
In fact, you know who you sound like? The same bleeding heart confused liberals who bitch and moan that the US has become a fascist nation. Delusional.
Oh yeah, and what is your opinion on the top three countries of the Global Competitiveness Report Switzerland, Finland, and Sweden? Commies or capitalist hotbeds?
Vote:September 29th, 2006 at 11:30 am
Your remarks concerning who is at the top of the list merely reinforce the impression you first created, of someone who is so dull witted they don’t know the difference between starting a business and doing business. The countries you mention are all well established within the European Union, and their economies have a manufacturing and export base that we in NZ can only dream of. Although socialism features quite strongly as a political ideology, they at least have the means to pay for it. The real question is, how prosperous would these communities be without the millstone of socialism around their neck?
For an example of this, we can look at the difference between Singapore and New Zealand. Both the same population and workforce but one with a much stronger manufacturing base, a more prosperous economy and a high standard of living, the other a miserable little Cuban style backwater. The Singapore government has about one third the tax receipts of NZ, gives its citizens numbered superannuation accounts, and has a real and functioning defence force, even with jet planes. NZ is bogged down not only because a large part of its workforce and population is unproductive, but also because it carries the additional burden of a great number of citizens who are as fucked in the head as you are, and until that changes, we’ll never crawl our way back into the real world.
Vote:September 29th, 2006 at 11:51 am
RB would like Singapore, none of that pesky democracy or freedom of speech to worry about.
Vote:September 29th, 2006 at 12:55 pm
Holy shit.. you socialists are amazing.. you totally poison the well of democracy in NZ with vote buying and then have the damn arrogance and uter gall to call Singapore “undemocratic”… Un-fucken-believable..!!!
Vote:September 29th, 2006 at 1:05 pm
Redbaiter:
I’m the one that’s fucked in the head?! This coming from someone who actually believes NZ is a miserable Cuban backwater? You must be manic depressive to not be able to enjoy living in NZ. What a sad sack. Personally if faced with the choice I would choose less income and more freedom, which is why I would never live in Singapore. For one so critical of (real or imagined) repressive regimes, you don’t seem to be very critical of Singapore.
Why do you think NZ is bogged down? Like you say, we are not part of the EU, we are an isolated island with a tiny population (which you are against increasing because according to the Brussels Journal all the new people will vote for Helen Clark, even though she won’t even be around in a couple years). We have to punch above our weight which we do, because we are a nation of intelligent, innovative people. Why can’t you see this. Oh yeah, because YOU are the miserable backwater, living out 1950s fantasies about communists. I mean, get with the times, the new bogeymen are Muslims!
Oh yeah, I really have trouble recognising the difference between starting a business and running a business. Do you run a business? If so, is it successful? If not, are you going to whine and bitch and blame the government your whole life?
Vote:September 29th, 2006 at 2:12 pm
Phil, a mate of mine came back from overseas a few years ago full of the same bullshit you are. His eight year old kid went fishing at the local wharf and ended up with a black eye and his gear stolen when a group of Maori thugs told him he had no right to be where he was or take resources that didn’t belong to him. His elder son was walking home from a school concert one evening and was beaten by another gang of Maori thugs who also told him he was on land that belonged to them (he was taking a shortcut along the railway track) and then made off with his shoes and his coat.
His boat was broken into twice with thousands of dollars worth of gear stolen and the Police practically indifferent. They accidentally happened to catch the crooks a while later, and my friend asked for compensation for the thousands of dollars worth of damage. The judge denied his application as the crooks weren’t working. Except for one, who was told he’d have to pay his share of the damage, about $2000. My friend received one cheque for $15 and never another. The crooks all had records as long as your arm and received sentences including weekend and home detention.
While this was all going on, he was reading in the paper about what a crime free environment he was lucky to be living in, and how the government was succeeding mightily in reducing crime, as the lame socialist media spun again and again for its left wing controllers.
He invested some money in a business venture, but after spending $5 million and four years trying to get a resource consent the company left and went to Australia. In the meantime, my friend was busy with a new house, but while digging the foundations, a few sea shells were discovered. Building of the house was delayed for a year or more while he argued with local authorities and Iwi about whether he could build his house on the land he had paid for but apparently didn’t own because it could have once been a Maori cooking area. Eventually he won his case, but a few months after it was completed it was torched. Meanwhile he was seeing on socialist TV what a wonderful bi-cultural nation NZ was and how lucky he was to live in a country where two races lived in such pleasant harmony.
He had a bit of experience in law enforcement, so applied for a job with the police. When he called the recruiting officer they asked him his race. He said he was white European. The recruitment officer told him not to bother applying as he didn’t fit the required profile. Before he hung up, the officer told him that if he had been a Maori woman, they’d have sent a taxi to pick him up.
He started another business as owner operator but was unable to hire the tradesmen he needed to complete what work he had on the books. Those who he had working for him were mostly drug addicts and incompetents. When he fired one for stealing equipment he was taken to the employment court and forced to pay compensation to the thief of $30,000 for wrongful dismissal. Meanwhile he was reading in the socialist newspapers how employment in NZ was at its highest levels ever, and that a new era of mutually beneficial cooperation between employees and employers was being ushered in by the Labour government.
He’s now cashed everything up and is off to Queensland next week. Its breaking his heart to leave Godzone, as you can imagine. We talked about your message Phil, and he said good luck to you mate, you’re going to enjoy learning just what a great place NZ is after a decade or two of socialist government.
Vote:September 29th, 2006 at 2:21 pm
Is he taking Pangloss and Cunégonde with him?
Vote:September 29th, 2006 at 2:24 pm
RB, I know you make stuff up constantly but that is the most hilarious invention ever!
“He said he was white European. The recruitment officer told him not to bother applying as he didn’t fit the required profile”
Do you ever actually look at the police force? ever notice that there are actually quite a number of white male people in it?
“He started another business as owner operator but was unable to hire the tradesmen he needed to complete what work he had on the books”
Thats a good argument for more immigration, better be careful.
“When he fired one for stealing equipment he was taken to the employment court and forced to pay compensation to the thief of $30,000 for wrongful dismissal”
We all heard and commented on that case last month, none of us felt that we had to pretend the guy was “our mate’
“He’s now cashed everything up and is off to Queensland next week”
Oh dear, leaving you friendless is he.
You really are such a bullsh*tter RB it is almost funny.
Vote:September 29th, 2006 at 2:39 pm
I’m guessing the babe goes since she probably still has her looks.
As for Pangloss – are you kidding – only in NZ will he be able to get funding for “metaphysico-theologico-cosmo-lonigology by having it included as an NCEA required course.
Vote:September 29th, 2006 at 2:39 pm
Sonic, this is clearly a ‘parable’ of sorts that Redbaiter has invented for himself to keep his ire at the required level. You know, the level required to spout endless diatribe.
As I’ve said before, Redbaiter, continued exposure to the Stalinist, socialist, multicultural hellhole that you are mired in is clearly causing you plenty of mental anguish that may damage you further – it’s time to make a clean break!
Where are you off to? What’s your ideal destination, Redbaiter, the shiny promised land that embodies your political beliefs to a tee?
DenMT
Vote:September 29th, 2006 at 2:48 pm
It is however full of truthiness Den.
“A reference to the quality by which a person claims to know something intuitively, instinctively, or “from the gut” without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination, or actual facts. ”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness
Vote:September 29th, 2006 at 3:31 pm
Redbaiter, let me tell you, I was moved by your mate’s hardluck story. I thought I knew unlucky people, but he takes the cake. I mean, not one but TWO of his children beaten up by maori thugs!
Boat broken into twice! Denied entry to the police cos he was white! Business failed cos he was useless and couldn’t hire some tradesmen! I mean, the dirty commies had all the tradesmen locked away in Cultural Rehabilitation centres.
Or maybe you are just full of shit.
Actually, I know it’s easy to make fun of you, but I really do reckon you need some kind of help for paranoia. Fuck it, I’m not qualified, but like the doctor said to the patient who was wearing nothing but gladwrap, clearly I can see you’re nuts.
Vote:September 29th, 2006 at 3:37 pm
Qualified??? Hell, with infantile jokes like that Phil, you’d be lucky if you were permitted to upgrade to the gape jawed cretin category..
Vote:September 29th, 2006 at 3:43 pm
Poor RB, caught out yet again.
Vote:September 29th, 2006 at 3:51 pm
Sonic, Phil, DenMT
You lot look sa lot like a pack of hyenas. A small sniff of blood and the pack descends.
Even a simpleton like me could see the points RB was trying to make by all you seemed to see was a chance to pour some scorn without taking the time to counter the argument.
Admittedly RB buys this with some of his diatribe but you fellas can do better than that surely?
Vote:September 29th, 2006 at 3:52 pm
Sonic, when will you understand that when leftists constantly smear people with false and baseless allegations of lying etc, when they set themselves up as false judges in partisan kangaroo courts, and when they announce their bigoted verdicts, the only real result is that more and more objective observers are awakened to how immoral and unprincipled and how desperate to control they are. Power is their ultimate objective, and they will smear anybody who stands in their way without suffering the slightest pang of conscience. Because they’re Stalinist psychopaths. (how many cities did the study refer to again?? You said one.)
Vote:September 29th, 2006 at 4:01 pm
RB, you just made up that whole story, you know it, I know it and anyone reading it knows it.
Who are you tying to fool here?
Vote:September 29th, 2006 at 4:02 pm
Actually Dave, that’s a damn insult to Hyenas. I mean sure.. the two species do have a lot in common. They’re horrible cowardly animals for sure, and they enjoy parasiting off the more courageous independent animals, and they stink to high heaven, and they hunt in packs, and they’re damn ugly, but the one important difference between the leftist and a hyena is that the latter doesn’t pretend to be anything it isn’t.
Vote:September 29th, 2006 at 4:09 pm
For RB
I’m Hans Christian Andersen,
I’ve many a tale to tell
And though I’m a cobbler,
I’d say I tell them rather well
I’ll mend your shoes and I’ll fix your boot
when I have a moment free
when I’m not otherwise occupied
as a purple duck, or a mountain side,
or a quarter after three
I’m Hans Christian Andersen,
Andersen, that’s me!
I’m Hans Christian Andersen,
Vote:My pen’s like a babling brook
Pemit me to show you, Dear Sir,
my very latest book
Now here’s a tale of a simple fool,
just glance at a page or two
You laugh “Ha Ha” but you blush a bit
For you realize while you’re reading it
That it’s also reading you
I’m Hans Christian Andersen,
Andersen, that’s who!
September 29th, 2006 at 4:25 pm
“You lot look sa lot like a pack of hyenas. A small sniff of blood and the pack descends.”
I am a rare commenter here, DavidW – I was merely moved to say something given Redbaiter’s complete load of ass that he has chosen to trot out here. As a passionately patriotic Kiwi, it raises my hackles when someone like Redbaiter continues to pour spite on NZ…
“Even a simpleton like me could see the points RB was trying to make by all you seemed to see was a chance to pour some scorn without taking the time to counter the argument.”
There is no argument to counter. Redbaiter invented a mate who embodied several recent and not so recent media stories, some outright bullshit (his imaginary friend was denied from the Police due to his race and gender) – all for the purpose of running the country down. Why dignify his bile with a point-by-poibt takedown, which would be a piece of piss.
“Admittedly RB buys this with some of his diatribe but you fellas can do better than that surely?”
Redbaiter deserves every ounce of flaming he gets on this board and others, due to the way he comports himself, the way he argues, the way he refers to fellow commenters, and the way he denigrates the country he lives in. If I thought it was worth the effort I’m sure I could muster up a lengthy post extolling Redbaiter’s almost total worthlessness…but I don’t. So the above will have to suffice.
DenMT
Vote:September 29th, 2006 at 4:51 pm
DaveW: I’ll call a liar out when I see one. Especially one who constantly paints NZ as some kind of communist state. I’m only half joking when I say that I think Redbaiter does have some kind of paranoia. I mean, when I first saw his posts I laughed, thinking what a great parody. Then gradually it dawned on me that maybe he was serious. Now I know he is serious, and also delusional. It sounds patronising, I know, but he needs help, or I dunno, just to chill out a bit, take a walk on the beach.
But ok, I’ll discuss his mates hardluck story. IF it is true, wouldn’t you agree that the guy has had THE WORST LUCK of any person in NZ? No wonder he’s leaving, but I don’t think his life is going to magically improve by going to Aussie. If both his kids got beaten up here, they’ll probably get beaten up there. His boat will get stolen again, and his business will fail, and the cops won’t let him be a cop because he’s not an aborigine. That’s of the plane even gets there.
I left NZ in 2000 for my OE. When I left, I was pretty disillusioned with the country. Small wonder, that’s why most Kiwis set off on extended OEs. It gets boring being stuck on an island when you’re young. I came back in 2004. And guess what, I was glad to be back. My love for NZ had grown yada yada, typical return from OE story. But it was still boring as hell. Apart from Auckland NOTHING HAPPENS! That’s why so many kiwis get their knickers in a knot when there is a corruption story, or a gruesome murder. Christ, you should see Mexico, where I am now. Just in this state alone, 45 people have been murdered in a drug war, in a city of 4 million. Thats just the drug war, and just this state, other states are up around 300, many decapitations. Don’t even ask about corruption. And Mexico is a pretty stable country globally speaking. (it just moved up 20 places on the ease of doing business scale, even though that is meaningless according to baiter). So NZ, whether you like it or not, is a big farm with nice beaches, mountains, and a small collection of paranoid whiners like Redbaiter. He needs to get out more.
Anyway, back to his unlucky mate. My mate, who got me a job concreting (yep, hard work Redbaiter) just started up his own company with the other guy we worked with. They quit because our boss was an idiot (despite this, he managed to make enough money to build a big house on a 4 hectare section and buy a brand new Toyota Hilux. I figure that if my ex boss could be successful in NZ then RB’s mate must have been a dropkick.) Now my mate is raking it in. Why? Quality work. If you do a good job, you’ll get more customers.
Now, to redbaiter: I really don’t give a shit about politics. I think 99% of politicians are lying wankers, and I don’t idolise any of them. They are a necessary annoyance, that’s all. I think Labour are morons being stubborn pricks about the 400 grand. Pay it back I say. But I’m not going to sit in front of a PC all day and whine about it. You know what? It’s going to come back and bite them in the arse next election. And yes, despite all your lunatic rantings about Communist repression, YOU WILL BE ABLE TO VOTE, because you live in a democracy! Unlike Singapore!
Vote:September 29th, 2006 at 4:59 pm
I’m just impressed that so many of you have read Candide. Welcome to Kiwiblog, home of the NZ Voltaire Appreciation Society!
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 9:28 am
Candide? Yes well, that its really.. the truth that shall not be spoken.. NZ is a Potemkin Village with shop fronts maintained by socialist politicians and their acolytes and their lame tame media friends.. that’s the point that DavidW could perceive and that Sonic and DenMT and their mates all try so hard to conceal..
Vote:October 3rd, 2006 at 5:30 pm
Mark said “The settlers to Australia changed everything”
The aborigines didnt know what day it was,who they were, or where they were.
it could have been worse for the aborigines of both Australia and NZ if the french or spanish had populated first, in fact i doubt if there would be any natives alive today.
Soft old poms eh.
Moto, When in Rome do as the romans.
Vote:November 16th, 2006 at 5:40 pm
I agree, while I am still very liberal in my attitudes generally my view on Asian immigration has completly changed since spending time recently in Korea.
I found the general attitude to be one of intolerance and xenophobia towards those who were not Korean. I lost count of the number of times that taxis would not stop, upon seeing a white person was the prospective passenger, where I would not be served in shops or where I would receive nasty glares. Other westeners that I met there said the same thing. I did learn some of the language to before I went as I was there (I am not some arrogant pratt expecting everyone speak English).
I noticed an especially arrogant attitude in the Korean where many Koreans wanted to live overseas and expected that it was their right to be accepted, but refused to accept ‘foreigners’ into their own community.
Also the prevailing attitude with Koreans is one of racial exclusivity and superiority. I do not think these are attitutes that we should be importing!
Vote:November 16th, 2006 at 5:41 pm
I agree, while I am still very liberal in my attitudes generally my view on Asian immigration has completly changed since spending time recently in Korea.
I found the general attitude to be one of intolerance and xenophobia towards those who were not Korean. I lost count of the number of times that taxis would not stop, upon seeing a white person was the prospective passenger, where I would not be served in shops or where I would receive nasty glares. Other westeners that I met there said the same thing. I did learn some of the language to before I went as I was there (I am not some arrogant pratt expecting everyone speak English).
I noticed an especially arrogant attitude in the Korean where many Koreans wanted to live overseas and expected that it was their right to be accepted, but refused to accept ‘foreigners’ into their own community.
Also the prevailing attitude with Koreans is one of racial exclusivity and superiority. I do not think these are attitutes that we should be importing!
Vote:November 20th, 2006 at 2:39 pm
Great+looking+site+so+fa
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