Police called in over e-mails
The Dom Post reports that National has called in the Police over the stolen e-mails. Good. It should have been done months ago.
Nixon lost the presidency over covering up a burglary of DNC HQ for useful information. In more recent US elections tapes of debate prep have been “leaked” to the opposing candidate and they are always treated as a police matter and in fact not handing it back is judged unacceptable by the electorate.
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Tags: National
September 13th, 2006 at 7:37 am
Is there not a doubt these emails are genuine. But assuming these emails are genuine then they have been stolen, then Clark and Peters are receivers. And they have been on notice for some time the property is stolen. I assume the Police will execute a search warrant on Peters to get the property back off Peters and charge him with receiving.
September 13th, 2006 at 8:30 am
And how exactly do police get a search warrant?
They rock on up to a JP say “your Worship we have reasonable grounds to believe the Winston Peters is in possession of stolen property”.
And then the JP asks “and what is the basis for this belief?”
And they respond “we have no admissible evidence, your Worship, only information protected by Parliamentary Privilege”
Then everyone goes home.
September 13th, 2006 at 8:37 am
“Nixon lost the presidency over covering up a burglary of DNC”
Nixon instigated the burglary you fools. Are you suggesting that Labour were responsible for stealing Don Brash’s emails? All I have read todate has been a suggestion that they came from a National insider. How about running your own party properly before tossing out wild accusations and insinuations.
September 13th, 2006 at 8:39 am
Graeme – weren’t some e-mails given to the SST?
September 13th, 2006 at 8:41 am
I do not think information published in Hansard will be ignored by the courts as to be able to form a reasonable basis Peters has the emails. Afterall the Courts do look at material in Hansard in interpreting legislation so why should hansard be ignored when applying for a search warrant. There may be a difficulty in excecuting it on Peters office in Parliament but not impossible. The Police could make a public request of Peters to hand them over and I cannot see how Peters could refuse that.
September 13th, 2006 at 8:47 am
Wasn’t there a West Wing episode were one side deliberately leaked their campaign tapes to get the other side in the poo?
September 13th, 2006 at 9:15 am
“Stolen” emails?
You mean leaked emails surely, and is this another straw in the wind that National are panicking over what is in them?
September 13th, 2006 at 9:31 am
The suggestion they were leaked defies credibility. Only two people had legitimate access to the e-mails and there is absolutely no way they would have leaked.
If I had to put odds on them being leaked by someone who had legitimate access vs someone breaking the law to access them, it would be 5%:95%.
September 13th, 2006 at 9:35 am
Are we taking bets on this Sir David?
Allah protect us.
September 13th, 2006 at 9:35 am
This is all a storm in a teacup – surely – Honest Don has nothing to worry about, being a straight-up and genuine man…
September 13th, 2006 at 9:41 am
“If I had to put odds on them being leaked by someone who had legitimate access vs someone breaking the law to access them, it would be 5%:95%.”
Better watch out David, you’ll have the Dept of Internal Affairs on your back again if you keep offering odds!
September 13th, 2006 at 9:48 am
Really, this sounds like National are trying to divert attention from their close ties with EB funding.
September 13th, 2006 at 9:54 am
Graeme – they have been refered to outside the House on many occassions.
September 13th, 2006 at 9:59 am
You jusr an idiot noddy. There’s no other possible response to you persistant denial.
You support liars thieves and wannabe dictators. The free ride is over for them and the likes of you.
September 13th, 2006 at 10:03 am
Yep Noody … Don Brash sure could have handled that issue better. But even the most partisan labour supporter knows in their heart of hearts that the EB spending their OWN money to attack Labour and the Greens is somewhat different to your mob RORTING the system to steal the election.
But back to the point of the thread. If Labour and NZF are comfortable about using stolen material then it reinforces the view that they are morally corrupt … as well as …
September 13th, 2006 at 10:04 am
This is just the modern day equivalent of stealing mail from letter boxes, and is typical of the immoral and corrupt left, who will commit any iniquity in their indecent obsession with power.
(correct thread this time)
September 13th, 2006 at 10:06 am
If the emails weren’t leaked it would definately fall under Sec 249(1)(a) of the Crimes Act 1961, “Accessing computer system for dishonest purpose”.
Whatever it was that was taken from the system, in this case emails, become unlawfully obtained property, and as such anyone is possession of the emails could be charged with Receiving.
September 13th, 2006 at 10:08 am
“Only two people had legitimate access to the e-mails”
Thats odd, last week you were telling us only three people had, has one of them been “silenced” already?
I’m afraid David you either do not understand the technology or are being obtuse. Any computer system those emails passed through could be set to keep a copy, that is why, of you are sensible, you encrypt sensitive emails.
The question remains however, what are National so desperate to hide?
September 13th, 2006 at 10:23 am
“EB spending their OWN money to attack Labour and the Greens is somewhat different to your mob RORTING the system to steal the election.”
Well, the EBs spending allowed National to RORT the system in other ways.
http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2006/09/one-law-for-all-for-everyone-but.html#comments
Oh look, naughty National, stealing form tax payers again. Fingers in the till boys?
September 13th, 2006 at 10:26 am
While anything IS possible with the set up of email systems, if we’re talking about the parliamentary network here, I very much doubt that would be the case. And I bet the set up has been scutinised fairly stiffly since news of these emails came to light.
Unless things have changed greatly since my time, security of that network is paramount.
I’d reverse your odds David. They were either leaked, or someone with physical access to Brash’s office, or that of the recipient/sender, and knowledge of the relevant passwords, was responsible.
September 13th, 2006 at 10:28 am
Who says it is the parliamentary system, for all we know they were all hotmailing each other.
However the question remains, what is National so desperate to hide?
September 13th, 2006 at 10:32 am
A number of the emails Peters has are fake, and there are other fake emails circulating, purporting to be between Brash and other senior party officials. The suspicion is that they were prepared by the Labour Party Research Unit and distributed via hotmail accounts.
September 13th, 2006 at 10:33 am
Well Sonic, that’s why I said “if we’re talking about the parliamentary network”
If not, then yes, anything is possible. Are they up on Winston’s MySpace page yet?
September 13th, 2006 at 10:34 am
It will be good to see how entrenched the anti-Brash dissent is in the National Party. As everybody knows National under English was struggling financially. Brash was able to topple English due to his endorsement and subsequent financial sponsorship by the NZBR. This was shown in a number of leaked emails last year. No doubt there were a number of people in the English camp that were incensed that the NZBR was able to buy the leadership of their party with such trivial ease. This was the cause of the leaked emails, so no wonder Brash is after the blood of who ever was involved. I look foward to the outcome of this enquiry.
September 13th, 2006 at 10:37 am
Anon is already spinning.
No problem if they are fake anon, National just denies them.
September 13th, 2006 at 10:39 am
Sonic
The best way to find a leak and screw the enemy is to print false information and hope it is stolen, then let them run with it. Dear Leader better be very careful, if the bastards in power want to live by the sword there is a very good chance they will die by the sword.
September 13th, 2006 at 10:40 am
Sonic,
You can say the same about any MP: why are MPs so desperate to keep their correspondence secure? Why have internet security at all, for anybody? Why not let everybody be able to see all of the correspondence that everybody has with anybody?
Isn’t it better that in the interests of an open, honest society, that everybody in the world should be able to see exactly what everybody else is doing?
Oooooh, and shouldn’t we have live cameras on everybody, every moment of the day? Why would anybody possibly object to that? What would they be so desperate to hide?
September 13th, 2006 at 10:42 am
Well that’s the thing, Philip John, I don’t even imagine that National MPs circulate their passwords amongst themselves & their staff.
translation: It is just as unlikely that anyone connected with English was involved, as it would be say, anyone connected with Mallard.
The explanation will be a simple one in the end – much like the Telecom loop leak – no high tech Mission Impossible shenanigans, just someone with access to a file & a photocopier. or something like that.
Or the emails don’t exist.
September 13th, 2006 at 10:46 am
Fucken idiot leftist must have their conspiracies– “the NZBR bought the National party..” don’t these fucken half witted infantile loons ever stop?? Jezuz H Christ on a bike they’re so endlessly deranged..
September 13th, 2006 at 10:49 am
Sonic – I don’t think anyione should have a year’s worth of e-mails put into the public domain. It is a hideous invasion of privacy. As it happens I doubt greatly there is anything politically damaging in there as it would have been released before now and each release has had lamer and lamer stuff.
Physical access to a building or floor does not mean the law wasn’t broken in accessing them. I used to have physical access to all the Beehive floors but it didn’t mean I could slip into a Minister’s desk and print off his e-mails while they are at their staff xmas party.
The reduction in the number of people with access, was excluding Dr Brash himself. He makes three. Of course that may have changed since I left, but that was definitely the case when set up.
September 13th, 2006 at 10:50 am
Insolent Prick,
are you a Reality TV producer? I’ve always thought that the day I turn on the TV & see myself taking a dump, will be the day I sue someone.
September 13th, 2006 at 10:50 am
So lets see guys, you are not on message it seems,
We have three competing arguments.
1) The emails were faked by Labour.
2) The emails are in fact a clever plot by National to discredit Labour.
3) The emails are genuine but are stolen property and therefore should never see the light of day.
Getting nervous?
September 13th, 2006 at 10:51 am
“The explanation will be a simple one in the end – much like the Telecom loop leak – no high tech Mission Impossible shenanigans, just someone with access to a file & a photocopier. or something like that. Or the emails don’t exist.”
All will be revealed in due course, though I doubt that the emails were fakes, or never existed – my understanding is that it’s very difficult to replicate the signature of an email account. In fact, email correspondences are used as evidence in legal proceedings these days. What ever the case is it will be interesting.
September 13th, 2006 at 10:52 am
good point redbaiter!
I guess they can come up with as many theories as they like so long as National keeps ther donors behind trusts.
The reason you can all go endlessly on about the pledge care and union fundins is because you know where the money comes from.
All national need to do to put this cash for policy stuff to bed is to reveal thier donar list…
September 13th, 2006 at 10:55 am
Cash for policy is an irrelvancy, a typically leftist dishonest and baseless smear. National don’t have to do reveal anything, and when will you communist scum realise that what people do with their own money is their business, not yours??
September 13th, 2006 at 10:55 am
Redbaiter… it’s the other way around – or is everyone but you a lefty?
It’s righties crying conspiracy this time.
You moron.
September 13th, 2006 at 10:55 am
Anon: The suspicion is that they were prepared by the Labour Party Research Unit and distributed via hotmail accounts.
paraphrasing Redbaiter: Fucken idiot rightist must have their conspiracies– don’t these fucken half witted infantile loons ever stop?? Jezuz H Christ on a bike they’re so endlessly deranged..
September 13th, 2006 at 10:56 am
“It is a hideous invasion of privacy”
Lets get real David, if National had damaging emails on Labour they would get leaked to some obliging Journo, thats how the game is played.
It seems to me that you are trying to get your retaliation in first.
September 13th, 2006 at 10:59 am
could someone from national tell me just what the difference is between clarks’ pledge-guard and the electioneering pamplets paid for by national out of the same (long-considered de-facto) slush fund…?
ta..!..i’m just a bit unclear on that one..
and by the way..?..how are natty hq handling the news clark is going to cut-off the source of 92% of nationals election funding/donations..?
that should be focussing a few minds..eh..?
oh..and slightly off -topic..but did you hear that rupert has gone ‘green’..
‘the sun’ has published an editorial apologising for being a cheerleader for the deniers..
and is publishing a series..”how to ‘green’ the planet..”
whoar..!..eh..?
i wonder how the deniers clustered over at humphrys (and here) will react to this news of the ‘turning’ of rupert….?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
September 13th, 2006 at 11:00 am
Don’t believe me RB? Well have a read.
http://www.epmu.org.nz/SITE_Default/news/union_news/2005_08_31_Brash.asp
September 13th, 2006 at 11:03 am
“Physical access to a building or floor does not mean the law wasn’t broken in accessing them.”
Very true, I was only speculating as to how this might have been done – at the very least, like that idiot messenger, the perp should lose their job.
“I used to have physical access to all the Beehive floors but it didn’t mean I could slip into a Minister’s desk and print off his e-mails while they are at their staff xmas party.”
Ditto, I even had the systems access in theory, to read the emails without knowing their passwords, but to do so would not just have been career limiting, but would have left a trail & in a situation such as this, I would have been discovered.
September 13th, 2006 at 11:03 am
Excellent analysis again from you, phillipjohn. I can see why you are heralded by so many people as such a distinguished and insightful academic.
I agree it is very likely that Bill English leaked the emails. It is clear that a man who was an MP for fifteen years was so angry at losing the leadership, that he decided to torpedo his new party leader’s chances. English’s position on the front bench, and as a top performer in the education portfolio, is just a smokescreen for the real conspiracy: English is not just trying to win back the leadership for himself, but think about it a little bit more. English is Catholic. That must mean he understands Da Vinci’s Code.
My understanding is that one of the leaked emails from Don Brash’s computer discloses that Bill English’s wife–named Mary–is the real descendent of Jesus and Mary Magdalene. The leaked emails are absolute evidence that English wants to use any methods possible to bring about Don Brash’s demise in the National Party, become Prime Minister, invade the United States, and repopulate the world with little Jesuses.
The Exclusive Brethren have cottoned onto this secret plot by the Englishes, and plotted secretly with Brash to defeat the little Jesuses from taking over the world.
And there’s definitely an obligatory Zionist in on it somewhere. And crop circles. Big, fuck-off crop circles.
September 13th, 2006 at 11:05 am
IP is sweating big time.
September 13th, 2006 at 11:05 am
Rupet is going Green… I’m sorry, but what has rupert the Bear got to do with these emails?
September 13th, 2006 at 11:07 am
“BRT executive director Roger Kerr titled “Tool of the Business Roundtable”
hah hah! There are a lot of “Tools” opf the Business Round Table.
September 13th, 2006 at 11:08 am
What’s to read there? Just more pointless rambling from another leftist idiot. Actually PJ, this is all down to Dubya, who has a secret plot to gain control of NZ thru the Brash faction so he can send troops to Iraq. Gore is involved too somewhere, and wants maximum exposure for his Goebbels-like propaganda film on global warming, and Hillary Clinton, Joeseph Mugabe and Tony Blair have a copy of the emails and are planning to use them to leverage Helen Klark’s ascendancy to Secreretary general of the UN. That’s if Halliburton are permitted to exploit NZ’s secret southern oilfields.
September 13th, 2006 at 11:09 am
I think it’s highly unlikely that English had anything to do with the emails, I just wouldn’t be surprised a National peon that likes him more than Brash did it. A reasonable thesis considering the way the NZBR helped Brash buy the leadership.
September 13th, 2006 at 11:10 am
That’s very good IP!
Now, could it also be true that Don Brash is the Grand Poobah (or whatever they call them) of the New Zealand chapter of Freemasons?
This explains a lot.
September 13th, 2006 at 11:13 am
Philip John,
My contention is that that is only likely if those emails were printed out & left lying around somewhere – or given to a messenger perhaps to shred…
I just do not believe that anyone, within National or otherwise, has the wherewithall to hack into the parliamentary network & read another person’s emails.
While it IS possible, the likelihood is much less that DPF’s 5%:95% against.
September 13th, 2006 at 11:15 am
Let’s all read the emails then we could make up our own mind.
A smart party would release them themeselves so as to cut the ground from under the opponents.
Unless of course there was something to hide that is, then they would throw mud around and make laboured “conspiracy theory” jokes.
September 13th, 2006 at 11:17 am
It would be very interesting to one day find out who donated National the $1.2 million during the 2005 campaign. It would be very revieling about just who bought the National leadership for Don Brash. Maybe the anti-anon donation legislation should be made retrospective as well?
September 13th, 2006 at 11:18 am
The suggestion they were leaked defies credibility. Only two people had legitimate access to the e-mails and there is absolutely no way they would have leaked.
If I had to put odds on them being leaked by someone who had legitimate access vs someone breaking the law to access them, it would be 5%:95%.
–
Yes, are we allowed to be on this one david?
September 13th, 2006 at 11:19 am
Sonic;
It would also be great to see the e-mails from labour over the election spending – especially the ones around the time that Mike Smith said that the Pledge Cards would be included in the election spending cap. And the ones around Phillip Field could be amusing as well.
September 13th, 2006 at 11:20 am
Yes, I can see that working in practice too, phillipjohn.
So what you’re saying is that a National Party staffer, who doesn’t like Don Brash, but likes Bill English, has taken it upon themselves to leak the emails, in the process sabotaging his own party?
What kind of realistic career prospects do you think that staffer would think they might have? Do you think they would be rewarded for leaking the emails?
But I know you’re very good at coming up with evidence. Do some detective work. Name the staffer who did the leak. Prove your theory correct.
September 13th, 2006 at 11:24 am
Au contraire, Insolent Prick.
Labour did indeed steal the emails. Planning for a contingency like this current has been underway for a good while, and Helen Clark sent Parekura Horomia over to England last year – a matter of public record.
What was NOT known at that time is that he was being covertly trained by sections of M16 in data retrieval. Last year, around November, the black-lycra-clad MP silently abseiled down the side of the Beehive, diamond-cutting through a glazing panel and nimbly vaulting into the building. After security was subdued with chloroform, Horomia put his new-found technical prowess to work, quickly downloading Brash’s hard-drive on to a device given to him by Clark expressly for the purpose.
Pocketing a half-eaten Moro bar on the way out, he exited just as covertly, and that is how Labour came into possession of said emails, and why Horomia often looks so smug in the house.
Or thereabouts.
DenMT
September 13th, 2006 at 11:24 am
Gambler,
I think this hinges on the definition of ‘leaked”, yes, if only two people had legitimate access to brash’s inbox, then it is highly unlikely that one of those two leaked the emails.
However, if we’re talking about some disgruntled National staffer, who may not have had legitimate access, but somehow was able to get copies… then I’d consider that leaking too.
really though, I’m arguing that it is unlikely the emails were hacked in some sinsiter high tech manner – they were acquired some other, more mundane way.
September 13th, 2006 at 11:25 am
All that any theory has at the moment is conjecture, I merely wished to point out one possibility that hadn’t seen the light of day thus far in the thread. As I have said, it will all come out in the wash.
September 13th, 2006 at 11:31 am
Wow i just read I/s link:
‘In an email from BRT executive director Roger Kerr titled “Tool of the Business Roundtable” Kerr offered advice such as: “you’ve been handling the criticisms of your alleged ‘extreme’ right wing views very well” and “next there will be talk about ‘having views like the Business Roundtable’. Someone may even discover you were a member. I won’t be helping them – we’ve been lying low as you may have noticed’
Brash speech to caucus: “As you and I both know, the Party is currently very short of money, with no obvious willingness on the part of those who could do so to write out big cheques… I believe that attracting that money would be substantially easier with me as leader.”‘
WTF who even listens to the BRT let alone accepts thier emails. If i was brash i’d set up a rule that any email with Kerr’s name in it went straight to the junk folder where it belongs.
Though if thats the content of one of the published emails no wonder National is going into crisis mode to stop the rest being published!
September 13th, 2006 at 11:33 am
I understand that, Phillipjohn. But as a distinguished and highly regarded academic, surely your approach is to consider the trail of evidence, and then reach a conclusion, rather than to reach a hypothesis and go looking for a trail of evidence that supports that hypothesis, right?
September 13th, 2006 at 11:34 am
I think llew’s argument has the most credibilty so far. Not sure exactly what IPs theory is, but it’s bound to be looney tune.
September 13th, 2006 at 11:38 am
“Though if thats the content of one of the published emails no wonder National is going into crisis mode to stop the rest being published!”
Storm in a teacup surely? BRT supports National? SHOCK/HORROR!
Am I being naive? What’s wrong with Brash talking with Kerr? As for being a member – when did the BRT become a secret society? Look, they’re both Freemasons too
(I bet) who cares?
September 13th, 2006 at 11:45 am
Come on IP, everyone enjoys a bit of conjecture, where’s the fun in being a political junkie otherwise? Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, the NZBR (the most wealthy and powerful interest group in New Zealand) was behind Brash’s leadership challenge all the way, this is obvious. Now the content of the original leaked emails were about how the NZBR and the far right were behind Brash’s take-over. So, what could be the motive of the person behind this? Certainly it was someone who didn’t like Brash, whether they were an English supporter or not. And it is also most likely that they were a National insider…..
Doesn’t take much dot connecting now does it?
September 13th, 2006 at 11:47 am
I don’t have a theory on the source of the emails, if they exist.
I would say that if Labour and Winston’s claims are correct–that there are phone books of email correspondence–then that would require much more than a casual and mundane slip-up on behalf of the leak. If we are talking phone books of correspondence, as has been claimed by Labour, then the only possibility is a systematic acquisition of emails. Either Labour is lying about the quantity of correspondence, or they are telling the truth, in which a systematic theft of large quantities of data by an unauthorised person must have occurred.
One of those possibilities is that the emails were contained on a laptop, rather than in hard copy form, and the laptop was lost either temporarily or permanently. That would explain the quantity of emails involved, without requiring a systematic intrusion of parliamentary security. However, for somebody to be in possession of a lost laptop, and to systematically pass on emails they were not authorised to read, probably involves criminal activity.
We are talking about a couple of occasional emails, that may have been lying around, picked up by a messenger, or on-sent casually. That option doesn’t preclude criminal activity on behalf of the person who passed that information on, or the recipient of that information. Either way, there does need to be a police investigation.
September 13th, 2006 at 11:49 am
“(the most wealthy and powerful interest group in New Zealand)”
That would be the Destiny Church, surely?
September 13th, 2006 at 11:49 am
In the same article (as it appeared on Stuff’s website):
“Dr Brash’s meetings with key Brethren members in the lead-up to last year’s election were revealed after the church distributed anti-Government pamphlets. His involvement with the Christian sect caused disquiet even within National’s ranks.
Signs of that disquiet surfaced yesterday when deputy leader Gerry Brownlee reportedly suggested that the Brethren – which spent more than $500,000 on its campaign to help National into office – were “a thorn in our side”.
Dr Brash said he did not take Mr Brownlee’s comment as a criticism.
“I think what (Gerry) meant by that is the ability of the Government to divert attention from their own misdeeds has been a bit of a nuisance from our point of view . . . and in that sense, any distraction is a thorn in our side.”
Come on Donny, surely you don’t expect National voters want their party associated with an extremist cult?
September 13th, 2006 at 11:55 am
I like the ninja horomia theory best.
September 13th, 2006 at 12:01 pm
There’s so many ways the messages could be leaked, either through mischief or carelessness. The amount of speculation going on here reminds me of 9/11 conspiracies. It could be as simple as someone on the other side of the correspondence forwarded the messages to Peters, that they were not taken from Beehive systems *at all*. It could be as dumb as someone leaving a printout lying around, or dropping a copy of the file into a directory accessible to more people than they know. Or it could be as sinister as some evil nerd packetsniffing carelessly unencrypted messages (who really encrypts email unless they have a guilty conscience anyways?) or cracking a weak password or weak encryption, or leaving a keylogger on Brash’s machine, or him doing something dumb like leaving pieces of paper around with his passwords on them.
It’s not public knowledge, but if we must guess, I’d guess towards the simple carelessness, or the unknown insider forwarding stuff. And IP trails are very hard to fake, so I can understand Brash’s nervousness – people are notoriously indiscreet in emails to people they trust, never really considering the security is roughly the same as if they were sending postcards.
I think it’s an underhanded tactic to flout his emails. But it’s all part of the playing the man and not the ball tactics which National have pretty much pursued for the last couple of years. I think both sides will end up looking pretty bad if these emails come out. It saddens me that NZ politics is coming to this.
September 13th, 2006 at 12:55 pm
“Either Labour is lying about the quantity of correspondence, or they are telling the truth”
As insightful as ever IP.
September 13th, 2006 at 1:03 pm
Sonic said: “So lets see guys, you are not on message it seems, We have three competing arguments.”
Oh no, lack of a conspiracy. That itself must be a conspiracy to throw everyone off the trail of the conspiracy.
September 13th, 2006 at 1:07 pm
In light of this report on the Radio NZ web site DPF might want to retract his comparisons with Richard Nixon and apologise to all concerned:
“The National Party is looking for a mole within its own ranks as it tries to dampen speculation about its ties with the Exclusive Brethren and leader Don Brash’s private life.”
For someone who is always complaining about people “shooting the messenger” he sure has some cheak blaming other people for his own party’s fuck up.
September 13th, 2006 at 1:08 pm
The only ones wittering on about “conspiracy” are those who seem desperate to cover up the emails.
Lets get it all out in the open, publish the mails!