Hone only helping Hones

October 11th, 2006 at 6:23 am by David Farrar

I suppose it is inevitable when you have race based rolls and seats, but Hone Harawira refuses to assist any person who comes to his office seeking help, unless they are on the Maori roll.

That is his right of course, but nevertheless regrettable and divisive.

I’ve never heard of an MP in a general seat who would refuse to help someone who is on the Maori roll, not the general roll.

John Carter sums it up well (and John is known as an outstanding MP in terms of working to help locals with problems):

I think it’s an honour. I’m paid by the taxpayer to assist anyone in New Zealand, regardless of who they are, what their background is, no matter what their ethnicity is.

But to be fair to Harawira, this can be seen as a logical consequence of having race based rolls and seats.

No tag for this post.

98 Responses to “Hone only helping Hones”

  1. MCMC () says:

    I don’t think the situation is necessarily comporable to a general MP helping anyone regardless of their roll, I think it’s more comparable to an electorate MP refusing to help someone registered outside that electorate. Sure they could help, but they’re not really that citizen’s representative in parliament and there’s no obligation as there would be for the MP of their electorate or the MP from a Maori seat assisting someone on the Maori roll in their district.

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  2. David Farrar () says:

    MCMC – sorry but it is 100% comparable to a General MP refusing to help someone who lives within their electorate who is on the Maori roll.

    Both situations involve refusing to help people within their geographic boundary, yet on a different roll.

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  3. pdm () says:

    It is not surprising that Hone Harawira refuses to help people not on the Maori Roll. He is first and formost a Maori Activist with parliamentary activities very much secondary to that role. It is thefefore to be expected that he would be almost totally focused on his activist agenda and not the betterment of all New Zealanders.

    I am sure people like Koro Wetere, Whetu Trikatane Sullivan etc did not adopt his approach.

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  4. tim barclay () says:

    Another lapse. The maori party MPs have generally conducted themselves with maturity. And I am sure Mr Harawira will think again on this one. As John Carter said it is also good politics to help everyone and that alone will mean all MPs will follow John Carter’s approach.

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  5. Duncan Bayne () says:

    tim,

    No individual that demands the continuation of race-based policies (in particular, the racist Maori seats) can be described as mature.

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  6. Nigel () says:

    I’m with Tim, I think it’s a serious mistake & I hope he does rethink the position.

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  7. Craig Ranapia () says:

    What I found particularly laughable is this passage:

    The Te Tai Tokerau MP, who has offices in Kaitaia and Whangarei, said his Maori electorate covered a much greater geographical area – and therefore more people – than those of general electorates and it made sense to be clear about who he could help. [emphasis added]

    Humm… So, Hone would have no problem with South Island MPs in extensive rural electorates – West Coast-Tasman’s Damien O’Connor immediately comes to mind – telling folks on the Maori to make an appointment to see Maharoa Okeroa because they’re too busy? Good luck, because if Hone feels hard done by I don’t know how Mr. Okeroa manages to service an electorate made up of the whole South Island and most of the Wellington region.

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  8. stan () says:

    bloody maaris

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  9. Craig Ranapia () says:

    No, Stan, bloody Hone Harawira. As I’ve alluded to above, there are general and Maori MPs who’ve managed to service electorates much larger than Te Tai Tokerau. Let’s do a simple flip test: What do you think Hone would have to say if Damien O’Connor or Bill English told someone on the Maori roll who fronted up to a constituency clinic to call Maharoa Okeroa and stop wasting their time? It doesn’t take a lot of imagination…

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  10. sonic () says:

    Hardly shock of the year is it, an MP represents his electorate rather than another electorate.

    Rodney Hide looks after people from Epsom shocker, would hardly be a great front page.

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  11. Craig Ranapia () says:

    Sonic wrote:
    Rodney Hide looks after people from Epsom shocker, would hardly be a great front page.

    No, Sonic, but it would be a totally legitimate story if Rodney Hide posted on his blog that he wasn’t interested in hearing from people on the Maori role, or anyone from outside the Epsom electorate on any matter.

    Hey, if it’s now the kaupapa of the Maori Party that they only represent the interests of Maori on the correct electoral roll then let’s be up front about it. But I think there’s more than a few MPs – past and present – who’ve represented large rural constituencies (both Maori and general) that must be rolling their eyes at Hone’s whinging about how large his electorate is.

    I’d also note that many electorate MPs, have areas of policy interest that mean they take up the causes of people outside their electorates – Rodney on taxation issues and abuse of power by he IRD, for example. Or, Tim Barnett and Chris Carter who don’t consider being advocates on GLBT issues a “distraction” from their constituency work. (And if a majority of the electors of Te Atatu and Christchurch Central take a contrary view, then they will make their views clear at the ballot box.)

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  12. cowboy ronnie () says:

    Race based seats David. Don’t you mean ethnicity based seats? Are you completely unaware of what you imply when you refer to Maori as a race rather than an ethnic group? Please David, we’re in the 21st century now, surely we can do away with 19th century terms that were used as a legitimation for slavery and colonisation.

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  13. Put it away () says:

    Cowboy Ronnie shows the classic politically correct attitude that any problem can be solved by coming up with a new word for it

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  14. cowboy ronnie () says:

    call it semantics if you want but there is clear scientific evidence that the the way we speak effects the way we think, and if you’re going to go on using erroneous outmoded terms you, closely associated with bigotry and oppression you have to wonder what’s going on in your head.

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  15. side show bob () says:

    I wonder what percentage of Maori as part of the whole population are on the Maori roll. Lets say as an example 30% of the population are on the Maori roll in Northland. Then what right does Hone have to draw a full MP’s salary . He should get a 70% paycut if he chooses to only represent 30% of the people in his electorate, he has no problem taking a full MP’s salary paid by both Maori and Pakeha therefore he should be there for all.

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  16. Murray () says:

    Racism.

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  17. Put it away () says:

    So that must include the words “racism” and “racist”. Good luck persuading the people who use those words that they’re “erroneous and outmoded”. You’ll be waiting a long time for “ethnicist” to catch on.

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  18. Put it away () says:

    Cowboy Ronnie displays the other classic symptom of politically correct “debate” – whenever race enters the discussion, just accuse the other side of being racist and that is supposed to shut down debate on the spot.

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  19. cowboy ronnie () says:

    that must include the words “racism” and “racist”. Good luck persuading the people who use those words that they’re “erroneous and outmoded”. You’ll be waiting a long time for “ethnicist” to catch on.”

    No, it is the concept, and the people who believe in the concept that are correctly labelled erroneous an outmoded – me referring to someone as racist doesn’t make one these things any more than it would if they pejoratively called someone a creationist.

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  20. cowboy ronnie () says:

    sorry that was supposed to be:

    No, it is the concept, and the people who believe in the concept that are correctly labelled erroneous an outmoded – referring to someone as racist doesn’t make one these things any more than it would if they pejoratively called someone a creationist.

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  21. sonic () says:

    Storm in a teacup.

    In Scotland we had a similar issue when the parliament was set up. People ended up with three elected representatives (Westminster MP, Constituency MSP and List MSP)

    Naturally we divided the work, same deal here.

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  22. Put it away () says:

    Quit squirming Ron, you said “if you’re going to go on using erroneous outmoded terms you, closely associated with bigotry and oppression you have to wonder what’s going on in your head.”
    Now go tell Hone Hawawera that you wonder what’s going on in his head if he uses the word “race”.

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  23. cowboy ronnie () says:

    “Now go tell Hone Hawawera that you wonder what’s going on in his head if he uses the word “race”.

    Yes if he uses that word you could rightly criticise him for the same reasons.

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  24. Glenn () says:

    “Ethnicity” is an unpleasant little package deal loosely defined as “descent and culture.” Note that it insidiously blends chosen behavior and ideology (culture) with the unchosen (descent.) So if one is critical of a particular behavior or cultural ideology, it is linked back to ethnicity, then descent, and viola! … you’re a “racist.”

    Denigrating a person on the basis of their physiology or genetic background (i.e genuine racism) is particularly stupid as it’s something they have no control over. But criticism of a person’s culture or religion is entirely appropriate as these are chosen behaviors and ideas. Yet ethnicity blends these two fundamentally distinct concepts into one, leaving the door for relativism wide open.

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  25. Glenn () says:

    “Ethnicity” is an unpleasant little package deal loosely defined as “descent and culture.” Note that it insidiously blends chosen behavior and ideology (culture) with the unchosen (descent.) So if one is critical of a particular behavior or cultural ideology, it is linked back to ethnicity, then descent, and voila! … you’re a “racist.”

    Denigrating a person on the basis of their physiology or genetic background (i.e genuine racism) is particularly stupid as it’s something they have no control over. But criticism of a person’s culture or religion is entirely appropriate as these are chosen behaviors and ideas. Yet ethnicity blends these two fundamentally distinct concepts into one, leaving the door for relativism wide open.

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  26. cowboy ronnie () says:

    “Yet ethnicity blends these two fundamentally distinct concepts into one, leaving the door for relativism wide open.”

    So am I to suppose that you want an objective yardstick for assessing human behaviour? And whose might that be? Wouldn’t happen to be a white middle class male yardstick would it?

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  27. Put it away () says:

    How about a yardstick of human rights, free speech and democracy. If you want to label those as “white middle class male” then I’ll take the compliment.

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  28. DavidW () says:

    Cowboy,
    Get a life
    Am I not to use the word “gay” as a term for laughter and light fun any more because it would mean I have sinister things going on in my head?

    what BS

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  29. cowboy ronnie () says:

    “How about a yardstick of human rights, free speech and democracy. If you want to label those as “white middle class male” then I’ll take the compliment.”

    Don’t hear anyone disagreeing with these things PIA.

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  30. Put it away () says:

    Well those are the standards that most people including myself use for judging cultures and religions ( or “ethnicity” as you would probably call it ).

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  31. Fletcher () says:

    So, I, a white middle-class male, can have all the help I desire as long as I join the maori electoral role?

    Now, some years ago, the requirement for some specific blood percentage was dropped (rightly, in my mind), and now anyone who “identifies” with being maori can join right?

    But I dont identify with being maori…. so is he inducing me to commit fraud, in order to have his help?

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  32. cowboy ronnie () says:

    “Am I not to use the word “gay” as a term for laughter and light fun any more because it would mean I have sinister things going on in my head?”

    Sorry dude, that’s a dumb analogy – i.e. race is an erroneous concept, using the word gay as you have suggested is a perfectly rational thing to do.

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  33. sonic () says:

    “anyone who “identifies” with being maori can join right?”

    Nope.

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  34. vanzylnz () says:

    How so sonic, on what basis are some excluded?

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  35. anonymouse () says:

    from electoral commission

    …This information is used to send Māori Electoral Option forms to those who declare themselves as being New Zealand Māori or descendants of New Zealand Māori.

    You delcare if you are Maori or a descendant each time you enroll

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  36. vanzylnz () says:

    So I can declare myself Maori? Or am I excluded because of genetics
    – something I have no choice over.

    I remember a country in Africa that used to operate a similar system.
    ;)

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  37. pete () says:

    If a general electorate MP is prepared to help people on the Maori roll, he is looking after people from 1 1/7 electorates.

    But if a Maori electorate MP is prepared to represent everyone from the geographical area of his electorate, then he is looking after people from 8 electorates.

    Can you see the difference?

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  38. mikeybill () says:

    I thought anyone could put themselves on the Maori roll – there is no requirement or test as far as I recall.

    I think harawira’s attitude sucks. He gets paid to be an MP and shouldn’t be able to pick and choose on this basis .

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  39. Put it away () says:

    “Race is an erroneous concept”, Ron ? How so. You can attempt to redefine words and create newspeak any way you like, but Chinese couples continue to produce chinese babies, white couples produce white babies, and black couples produce black babies, and I still know which one’s more likely to be the next heavyweight champ…
    That is reality. Deal with it.

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  40. burt () says:

    Cowboy Romney

    The census had it wrong too. The question was ‘what is your race’ and had suggested answers like Maori, Scottish etc. So it suggested using an ethnicity to answer a race question…

    Look if the Govt can’t get it correct, the Dept of statistics can’t understand the difference then what are you on about?

    The meaning is the same in common usage, find an argument of substance !

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  41. burt () says:

    Put it away,

    You have hit a classic double standard nail on the head.

    It’s perfectly OK to suggest that certain races have advantages in sport and physical abilities. I haven’t seen a white guy win the Olympic 100m sprint for a few years now. We could call this AQ (Athletic quotient)

    But you had better not suggest that certain races have different IQ levels…. Oh the shy will fall and the ‘racist’ accusations will fly.

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  42. Put it away () says:

    The interesting thing about that is that attempts to scientifically compare intelligence of races ( very difficult due to the complexities of eliminating environmental influences, and any results must be treated very carefully ) have generally concluded that Asians have the highest I.Q. Now I don’t have a problem with that at all, because unlike the politically correct, I have a respect for objective reality. If the evidence comes in that that is the case, so be it. Contrast that to the attitude of the politically correct who will scream that the IQs of all races must be exactly equal to however many decimal places. Why ? It just *has* to.

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  43. sonic () says:

    Anyone who thinks race determines IQ demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of either concept.

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  44. burt () says:

    sonic

    have a read mate, it’s not a leftist publication so I’m sure you will disagree with almost all of it. But it’s good reading and the calculations in some of the articles make great mental chewing gum, irrespective of your race.

    http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com

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  45. cowboy ronnie () says:

    Put it away:

    Why don’t you read “race, IQ and jensen” by Professor Jim Flynn – It actually shows that African genes have a possitive correlative effect with regards to IQ stronger than asian or european genes.

    BTW, the main point of the book is to show how tenuous any attempt to match intelligence with the concept of “race” is.

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  46. Put it away () says:

    Thanks sonic for providing a classic example of the PC “head in the sand” attitude I was talking about. If you don’t like it, it can’t possibly be true. Perhaps you can explain why intelligence, which is our species’ most critical feature, and has by far the greatest influence on our survival, is somehowe immune to natural selection that operates on everything else about us, such as athletic ability or skin tone that protects from UV rays ? Intelligence has been the focus of our evolution for the last few million years, yet according to you, separate populations evolving independently in different locations have somehow magically kept exactly in pace with each other. Why is that ? Just about everything else about those populations changed independently…

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  47. cowboy ronnie () says:

    “The census had it wrong too. The question was ‘what is your race’ and had suggested answers like Maori, Scottish etc. So it suggested using an ethnicity to answer a race question…”

    Yes the department of statistics has it wrong, time to pull its head out of its ass no?

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  48. burt () says:

    Yes it was a joke, I wrote Caucasian, NZ European (another suggestion) is not a race, and not really an ethnicity either.

    Still, can you imagine the outrage if NZ Maori people had to write Polynesian…..

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  49. Freud () says:

    Define intelligence, in this context.

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  50. cowboy ronnie () says:

    Define intelligence you say?

    IQ” stands for “intelligence quotient.” A person’s IQ is supposed to be a measure of that person’s intelligence: the higher the IQ number, the greater the intelligence. This is inaccurate, however, since it assumes that there is only one kind of intelligence. Most people recognize that there are some people with fantastic memories, some with mathematical minds, some with musical genius, some with mechanical expertise, some with good vocabularies, some good at seeing analogies, some good at synthesizing, some at unifying, etc. Some people excel at more than one of these behaviors. It would be more accurate to speak of human intelligences than of intelligence. An IQ test, therefore, should be considered a measure of some kinds of intelligence, but not all. The most accurate claim one can make about an IQ test is that it measures IQ.

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  51. Put it away () says:

    Ron, sounds like yet another fantasist claiming that “race doesn’t exist”, and yet somehow he’s black, his parents were black, he can identify black people by their characteristics when he sees them, and yet “race doesn’t exist” ?

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  52. Freud () says:

    Cool. Now define intellect.

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  53. sonic () says:

    Thats the problem with these head in the sand people who think that the level of melanin in your skin somehow influences your mental ablity.

    This is a classic example

    “separate populations evolving independently in different locations”

    Can you name any group of humans who have been totally isolated for long enough to start evolving seperately?

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  54. cowboy ronnie () says:

    PIA:

    Racial distinctions are generally made on the basis of skin color, facial features, inferred ancestry, national origin and self-identification in the United States. In an ongoing debate, some geneticists argue race is neither a meaningful concept nor a useful heuristic device,[10] and even that genetic differences among groups are biologically meaningless,[11] on the basis that more genetic variation exists within such races than among them,[12]

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  55. burt () says:

    No sonic

    All people look the same, think the same, talk the same, can run at exactly the same speed and have exactly the same mental abilities.

    What were we thinking!

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  56. Glenn () says:

    Interesting how those horrified by so-called “blood quantum” cheerfully embrace arcane genealogical exercises locating one or more Maori descendants. If you have one or more Maori descendants, by definition, you have a Maori “blood quantum” greater than zero. So it amounts to the same thing.

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  57. burt () says:

    Maori electoral roll… why, according to sonic no people have been isolated long enough or are different enough to justify anything of the sort.

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  58. cowboy ronnie () says:

    Interesting how those horrified by so-called “blood quantum” cheerfully embrace arcane genealogical exercises locating one or more Maori descendants. If you have one or more Maori descendants, by definition, you have a Maori “blood quantum” greater than zero. So it amounts to the same thing.

    That’s crap Glenn. If I (a pakeha) was adopted by a family with connections back to the census taken at the beginning of the 19th century I would be eligible to go on the Maori role – no blood connection is needed, only a provable connection to a cultural heritage.

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  59. sonic () says:

    No-one is saying we are all the same Burt, just that our differences are not best explained by the limited Victorian concept of “race”

    There is far more variation in IQ within racial groups than between them, a fact that “bell curve” enthusiasts are usually unwilling to mention.

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  60. cowboy ronnie () says:

    sorry that should have been

    That’s crap Glenn. If I (a pakeha) was adopted by a family with connections back to the census of iwis taken at the beginning of the 20th century I would be eligible to go on the Maori role – no blood connection is needed, only a provable connection to a cultural heritage.

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  61. burt () says:

    Oh come on sonic, we all know that the variance is bigger in a single race, you are using a herring rouge now.

    Next you will be saying that as there is more variance in how tall people are within a race than there is between races that race and height have no relationship. Average height is NOT the same across all races – like it or not this is fact.

    Yawn, OK sonic. Next attempt to justify being a PC lefty, bring it on.

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  62. sonic () says:

    “we all know that the variance is bigger in a single race’

    Which in itself kills your argument stone dead.

    I don’t even need to mention the inbuilt flaws of IQ tests themselves now.

    Cheers

    S

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  63. cowboy ronnie () says:

    Burt, need I post this again?

    Why don’t you read “race, IQ and jensen” by Professor Jim Flynn – It actually shows that African genes have a possitive correlative effect with regards to IQ stronger than asian or european genes.

    BTW, the main point of the book is to show how tenuous any attempt to match intelligence with the concept of “race” is.

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  64. cowboy ronnie () says:

    Look up flunn on the net, he is one of, if not the for most expert on race and IQ in the world

    “The secular, international increase in test scores, commonly called the Flynn effect, is seen by Flynn and others as reason to expect the eventual convergence of average Black and White IQ scores. As demonstrated by Flynn, the average IQ scores in several countries have increased about 3 points per decade during the 20th century, which he and others attribute predominantly to environmental causes.[78]“

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  65. burt () says:

    Cowboy Romney

    Likewise;

    http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com

    And it’s not just about race, there is some very interesting stuff that is very topical for this thread about the Maori roll.

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  66. Put it away () says:

    Sonic, what a load of straw man nonsense, no one says that melanin influences mental ability, population genetics is a statistical phenomenon where certain alleles appear in different frequencies in different populations. The African population, for example, has a higher percentage of the melanin alleles, and a higher percentage of the fast-twitch muscle fibre genes, no one is claiming the two determine each other. Skin colour is just a fairly good indicator of which population an individual comes from, but tells you nothing for certain about what other genes they’re carrying. What you can say is statistically they’re more likely to be a potential athlete, but skin colour does nothing to determine that. Please try to stick to the argument.

    This is a classic example

    “separate populations evolving independently in different locations”

    “Can you name any group of humans who have been totally isolated for long enough to start evolving seperately?”

    How long has it taken to create the breeds of dogs we have today ? More straw men, no one is claiming total isolation ( excecpt maybe for the Aborigines ), but separate enough that the vast majority of breeding happens within the group. Despite all the interbreeding with neighbouring populations, Chinese are still Chinese, Japanese are still Japanese etc etc.

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  67. cowboy ronnie () says:

    Also towards the race and IQ debate:

    “Many studies that attempt to test for heritability find results that do not support the partly-genetic hypothesis. They include studies on IQ and skin color,[84] self-reported European ancestry,[85] children in post WWII Germany born to Black and White American soldiers,[86] blood groups,[87] and mixed-race children born to either a Black or a White mother.[88] Many intervention and adoption studies also find results that do not support the genetic hypothesis.[89]“

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  68. ross () says:

    So any pale-skinned person who identifies himself or herself as Maori and is on the Maori roll, Hone will help them? Pull the other one.

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  69. burt () says:

    Cadmus

    That is the most racist comment I have seen in this thread.

    Oh well, I’ll just wait till your next post where you will do a u-turn and say that all men speak with forked tongue.

    Oh, BTW: Congrats for being reasonably on thread. The lithium is working ?

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  70. Andrew () says:

    this discussion might well be microscopically raising the IQ of participants but the median EQ is plummeting

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  71. cowboy ronnie () says:

    “So any pale-skinned person who identifies himself or herself as Maori and is on the Maori roll, Hone will help them? Pull the other one.”

    If the person states their tribe I don’t see why he wouldn’t.

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  72. burt () says:

    NZ – Keeping apartheid alive in 2006. Way to go!

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  73. cowboy ronnie () says:

    “NZ – Keeping apartheid alive in 2006. Way to go!”

    Sorry Burt but this statement is moronic, you really should try harder.

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  74. sonic () says:

    “How long has it taken to create the breeds of dogs we have today”

    Selective breeding = evolution?

    Has anyone got any thread, I fear my sides have just split.

    “NZ – Keeping apartheid alive in 2006. Way to go!”

    Thats right Burt, hope you are carrying your pass you poor oppressed person you.

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  75. burt () says:

    Pop quiz

    Who said this in 2000?

    Mr X said the most serious flaw in the Budget was the allocation of nearly a billion dollars over the next four years for closing the gaps, for Maori and Pacific Islanders, which he described as an “absolute disaster”.

    “It is a policy that could have come from George Speight’s policy advisers in Fiji.

    “Programmes should be based on human needs – not racial differences. The inevitable result will be separatism and divisiveness within communities throughout the country, “said Mr X”.

    “Some of the ‘Closing the Gaps’ initiatives are expensive race based talkfests, like the hui planned for October. (We remember the 1984 Hui Taumata which ended as a Hui No Mata!)”

    “The first Labour Government of Michael Joseph Savage concentrated on human needs – not racial needs. In social policy the fifth Labour Government has forgotten that it represents ALL New Zealanders.”

    “Every New Zealander is entitled to good food, good shelter, good health and good education. These are basic human rights, not racial needs.”

    I can just hear him now saying that Hone is doing the right thing…..

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  76. burt () says:

    Answer:

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0006/S00307.htm

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  77. cowboy ronnie () says:

    And your point is Burt? What that Winston is a hypocrite? Well if it is that it’s rather redundant no?

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  78. Put it away () says:

    Sonic, I think you’ve actually got it ! Evolution *is* selective breeding, whether it’s artificial selection or natural selection the result is the same. Congratulations.

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  79. sonic () says:

    “Evolution *is* selective breeding, whether it’s artificial selection or natural selection the result is the same”

    Timescale PIA, timescale.

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  80. Trouble () says:

    Bit rich for Carter, who’s most famous for his impersonation of a Maori dole bludger on Banksie’s radio programme (while they were both in government), to point the finger at Harawira’s representation of his constituents. Carter owes his place as an MP to the large number of Maori in his area being on a different roll and not voting for his opponent in the general seat.

    A few Nat MPs in areas with high Maori populations might want to think about what abolishing the Maori roll will do to their electorate vote.

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  81. dave () says:

    Yeah John Carter would know a thing or two about Hone’s, wouldnt he?

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  82. dave () says:

    Yeah John Carter would know a thing or two about Hone’s, wouldnt he?

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  83. dave () says:

    Yeah John Carter would know a thing or two about Hone’s, wouldnt he?

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  84. Put it away () says:

    Sonic: Timescale ? Humans left africa approx 40,000 years ago, that is maybe 2000 generations of selection. You think that’s not enough for changes to happen ?

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  85. cowboy ronnie () says:

    “Sonic: Timescale ? Humans left africa approx 40,000 years ago, that is maybe 2000 generations of selection. You think that’s not enough for changes to happen ?”

    Provided that environmental factors are different enough, yes. Sure you’re not as likely to reproduce if you’re down syndrome, but I wold have thought that this would apply relatively equally accross all environments. Also, I’ve never known of a culture that requires people to excel at calculus in order to get a root, do you?

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  86. thehawk () says:

    The existence of a race-based (racist) roll
    is a sad state of affairs.

    The Maori roll is another yoke around the necks of Maori. If only they could remove their sunglasses and drop their white sticks for long enough to glimpse that the 21st century could be ahead of them but instead, their self-interested leaders are dragging them back to the 19th.

    Shame on all those that support such institutionalised racism that is so destructive.

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  87. Put it away () says:

    Ron, intelligence improves your chances of staying alive long enough to “get a root”, and improves your chances of being able to provide well enough for the offspring of your roots for them to survive and remain in the gene pool. Give it 2000 generations and see how the change accumulates. Of course the intelligence factor competes with other factors, there may well be environments where say, physical strength and speed required for hunting or fighting off predators have a more prominent effect on your survivability than intelligence does. Each environment has its own selective pressures and the relative frequency of alleles will change to reflect this in a fairly short space of time. We are not talking about developing separate species or evolving new organs or turning arms into flippers, just a change in the distribution of genes that alredy exist, so that the percentages of each type are different in different races.

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  88. sally () says:

    Ok Hone, since it is my good-for-nothing Pakeha tax dollars paying your wage and you as a Public Servant are refusing to assist Non-Maori, may I suggest you only accept koha only, as a wage replacement, from your Maori constituents. You know Hone that ‘koha’ can mean more than that grubby White capatalist dollar – a bag of kai moana, a bit of wild pork, a beautiful bone carving or even a bag of Northland’s finest electric puha, will do just fine.

    Only fair eh Bro’!

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  89. burt () says:

    Cowboy Ronnie

    Join a good chess club, and brush up your calculus.

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  90. burt () says:

    Cowboy Ronnie

    Actually your be good at calculus is the very thing that blows a hole in your claim that intelligence would develop equally.

    Intelligence is a trait of leaders. I don’t need to quote the IQ’s (if that’s a measure) of the US presidents to make my case. Our very own Dear Leader, need I say more.

    So in a tribal society (which most have been for many thousands of years prior to the last few centuries) the ruling family (Chief, King, Queen, whatever) would tend to be an intellectual blip on the overall tribe bell curve.

    Thus you could extrapolate that the more waring a tribe was, the more commoners it would spare to support a larger ruling family. It would only take one battle where the troops were close to completely exhausted to see the tribe (village, town) repopulated over time by the intellectual elite. Hence a smarter… tribe, people, race.

    Alternately applied to an Island tribe, if a tidal wave wiped out all but the highest ‘houses’ then all but the Chief’s and leaders families would be wiped out. Given humans natural propensity to lord it over their peasants with elevated real estate.

    But, who cares, if it is so then it is so, I’m a white guy and I can’t make the Nigerian sprinting team, do I cry about it?

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  91. burt () says:

    sally

    Gifted thought. I’m behind that 100%. Live and die by the sword or put the bloody thing away.

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  92. cowboyronnie () says:

    “Ron, intelligence improves your chances of staying alive long enough to “get a root”, and improves your chances of being able to provide well enough for the offspring of your roots for them to survive and remain in the gene pool.”

    In my experience it isn’t the smartest people who reproduce the most, in fact the opposite. In any case I think that if you can avoid the bottom 20% the bell curve, intelligence as a selective pressure is negligible in any given environment that I can think of. i.e. you don’t need to be a genius to pick berries and hunt wild game, plough a field and grow some crops, work at a factory doing medial tasks, get my point? Other factors such as physical strength and stamina -become far more important.

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  93. cowboyronnie () says:

    “Actually your be good at calculus is the very thing that blows a hole in your claim that intelligence would develop equally.

    Intelligence is a trait of leaders. I don’t need to quote the IQ’s (if that’s a measure) of the US presidents to make my case. Our very own Dear Leader, need I say more.”

    This theory probably applies in a modern, fairly meritocratic society (however if we look at George Bush I’m not even sure that this is true).

    But in pre-capitalist times we have things like religion to act against this – i.e. I’m the rightful king because I’m the first born son of the king – our religion says so, etc. You could be a complete twerp and your advisors, shamans, priests etc … could do the job for you. It would probably be more important to look big and threatening and have good social skills (not necessarily associated with intelligence) than to be especially intelligent.

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  94. burt () says:

    Cowboy Ronnie

    Excellent, you have just proven that different societies have different factors that influence the mating game, survival etc. As PIA said, different cultures will therefore develope quite differently.

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  95. cowboyronnie () says:

    burt:

    “Excellent, you have just proven that different societies have different factors that influence the mating game, survival etc. As PIA said, different cultures will therefore develope quite differently.”

    No, in fact i said: “you don’t need to be a genius to pick berries and hunt wild game, plough a field and grow some crops, work at a factory doing menial tasks, get my point?”

    The fact that the people with intellects tend to rise the top in bureaucracies in our culture says nothing about whether the smarter 30% of the bell curve will produce a larger percentage of the offspring in our culture, say compared to in a hunter-gatherer society.

    Furthermore, the vast majority of studies show that, over a population, it is environment much more than genes that effect IQ.

    So even if you were able to demonstrate a freak selection pressure particular to a specific ‘race’ which meant that say the smartest 30% produced 60% of the offspring generation after generation (which is unimaginable short of something like an artificially created human selection programme similar to that envisaged by Raymond Cattle), you might just be selecting the 30% of people who are the best nourished intellectually and nutritionally (the richest), which would mean that the population was genetically no smarter than if the selection pressure had not existed.

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