A busy boy
Lindsay Mitchell highlights the death notice for a 35 year old Levin man.
What is unusual, apart from the charming nickname of “Mr Pimp” is his family. He comes from a large family, having ten siblings. But by age 35 he has already had eleven children by three different women – one being his wife and one being his partner.
Oh and his kids have already had three kids of their own.
So the question is, if each of his ten siblings also had eleven children, and each of them has eleven children, how big is the extended whanu and how many tonnes of carbon emmissions will they be responsible for?
And a final bonus point for the total amount of government money received every year by the family.
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Tags: New Zealand
February 18th, 2007 at 2:34 pm
Hell,heres a marketing opening for someone,BOTTLED Levin water for barren women or couples who want lots of rugrats.
February 18th, 2007 at 2:52 pm
The real question is: are the rest of us reproducing?
February 18th, 2007 at 3:56 pm
Died “unexpectedly” ? He took horse tranquilers, I wonder what he was expecting to happen ? I’m surprised there are so many normal names in the family, but then there’s also Phoenix, Bailey, Jahkaya, Jahleel, all destined for glory no doubt.
February 18th, 2007 at 4:18 pm
The real tragedy is somewhere out there there’s a horse who hurt itself doing something useful who might miss out on tranquilisers because of this waste of oxygen.
February 18th, 2007 at 4:28 pm
And no doubt this serial fecundity was all paid for by welfare.
February 18th, 2007 at 4:32 pm
Their winz case managers are reported to be “shattered” by this unexpected news.
Counselling has been offered.
February 18th, 2007 at 4:44 pm
The Nomads are a chapter of the Mongrel Mob so while the succession of the mob as an entity seemed assured, so to does the National Legal Aid Bill seem set to soar many times the rate of inflation.
February 18th, 2007 at 5:03 pm
my thoughts, WINZ should focus on us , that should get them fired up, NOTHING will happen, only babies by inbreeds ,opps they love each other till the next sexy partner,strolls up(ps dont drink Levin water)
February 18th, 2007 at 10:01 pm
The Nomads are definitely not a chapter of the Mongrel Mob. They were formed by a breakaway group of Black Power members who thought the BP leaders weren’t making the hard decisions. Ie. They weren’t hard enough for them. And the Nomads are very, very hard.
February 19th, 2007 at 7:58 am
Having many siblings is not unusual for Maori families. I don’t know why I’m even bothering to comment here, but ‘father to’ doesn’t necessarily mean he is related by blood.
Lindsay Mitchell needs to get a life.
aladin
February 19th, 2007 at 9:05 am
Aladin you get a life. It is quite credible a person could have “fathered” this many children with as many mothers and more. I have met such “fathers” myself mate. And guess what – who is paying.
February 19th, 2007 at 10:53 am
Any evidence at all that this person was on welfare?
Anyone?
Or are we just having a bash the dead session for the sake of it?
February 19th, 2007 at 11:14 am
Well Sonic,
Why don’t you confirm for us that he wasn’t?
February 19th, 2007 at 11:20 am
I’m not the one throwing around comments like “Guess who is paying” or “Their winz case managers are reported to be shattered by this unexpected news” or even “And no doubt this serial fecundity was all paid for by welfare”
Not for me to prove anything Cubit, I’m just asking the question.
February 19th, 2007 at 11:21 am
Tim, I have a great life and I don’t need to be sifting through death notices counting names etc to have one, like some sad people. Of course it is credible someone could be the father of many kids, duh. I’m just bemused that in this situation it is being assumed that the children mentioned are all Mr Waho’s. Not to mention that they are all on welfare.
As for the ‘carbon emmission’ thing from DPF, is he for real?
aladin
February 19th, 2007 at 11:31 am
Levin is one of the many provincial towns in New Zealand–along with West and South Auckland, and Porirua–that are getting totally hammered by successive governments’ unwillingness to put a stop to intergenerational welfare.
The pinkos like to claim themselves as the compassionate politicians, yet they encourage people who cannot look after themselves to breed and create yet more misery.
This guy was an utter waste of space. I hope that the next government has the courage to ensure that his children and grandchildren receive proper education, proper healthcare, and don’t engage in the kind of criminal activity that their father did. I also hope that the next government won’t make welfare the only choice for his offspring.
February 19th, 2007 at 11:35 am
Sonic – With 11 children I think it is impossible for the family not to be receiving huge amounts of welfare. Unless the man, who was in the pub during the day on Friday, earns over $150,000 or so.
Aladin – no not serious but having less people born is best way to reduce carbon emmissions.
February 19th, 2007 at 11:41 am
“This guy was an utter waste of space”
Ip you never met the man or knew anything about him. That sort of assumption is just sickening. I would be interested how you would react if someomg on the left said the same thing about a white businessman who had just passed away.
David assumes again.
“the man, who was in the pub during the day on Friday”
Hands up anyone here who has never been to the pub during the day on Friday, how about you David?
February 19th, 2007 at 12:35 pm
sonic, either you are quaintly niaive or just totally ignorant.
February 19th, 2007 at 1:35 pm
You mean rather than just a kneejerk who assumes that he can tell everything about someone from a one paragraph death notice?
February 19th, 2007 at 2:26 pm
My husband worked for three years as a doctor in Northland in the 90s, an area wracked by welfare dependancy, drugs, gangs and plenty of mainly Maori men spawning unwanted children and VD all over the district.
I helped in one mobile medical clinic in the Hokianga, when a huge fist fight broke out as the three Maori teenage girls who had checked in, discovered they were all pregant to the same loser. Unsurprisingly he had skipped town, months later we heard via his grandfather he was living with the Black Power in Whangarei. His loving whanau refused to hold him to account for his three children, all born within nine weeks of each other, as he needed his “freedom” and the mothers were all “sluts” and “that was what the benefit is for ay”.
We heard this type of story so many times, that we became hardened, jaded and disillushioned with the communities (overwhelmingly Maori) we were dealing with. Many of the Maori nurses and a Maori doctor who worked with us also were in despair at the mindlessness of it all.
The rot starts at the top.
We saw kaumatua ignore wholesale drug growing operations and its open use in front of young kids. We saw young girls and boys who obviously indulge in promiscuous and risky sexual behaviours as we had huge clusters of pregnancies and sexually transmitted diseases. It was all greeted with a shrug of the shoulders and the expectation that the government would sort it out.
For those Chardonnay Socialists that dwell, particularly in Wellington, and never soil themselves by going to places like the Hokianga and the rest of Northland, I know this comes as heresy, that welfare and lack of personal responsibility is a cancer. I suggest a nice long holiday up there to get a good feel for the place and see the sheer scale of the problem.
In the three years we were there no govt dept from Wellington, concerned with education, welfare or crime and justice visited the area we worked in. I believe it was simply seen as a write-off.
February 19th, 2007 at 2:56 pm
Sally,
Thank you for your view from the grass roots. I think your most telling statement is towards the end where you give a deserved serve to the Chardonnay socialists. You have got it dead right. The policy wonks, political gadflies, political party activists (of all colours)and numerous others with their snouts firmly in one trough or other just do not appreciate what happens out in Heartland (or is it heartless) NZ.
The most dismal outcome is that despite having implemented every imaginable good and idealistic over the past 25 years (or more) the results are disgraceful.
Our baby boom generation (the folks calling the shots) never had it so good but our legacy to the future is not one to take a lot of comfort from.
There is an underclass. Some can’t avoid it, some don’t actually know they are in it and unfortunately there are some who just enjoy it.
February 19th, 2007 at 2:56 pm
Sally,
Thank you for your view from the grass roots. I think your most telling statement is towards the end where you give a deserved serve to the Chardonnay socialists. You have got it dead right. The policy wonks, political gadflies, political party activists (of all colours)and numerous others with their snouts firmly in one trough or other just do not appreciate what happens out in Heartland (or is it heartless) NZ.
The most dismal outcome is that despite having implemented every imaginable good and idealistic idea over the past 25 years (or more) the results are disgraceful.Sometimes you wonder if it was all worth it.
Our baby boom generation (the folks calling the shots) never had it so good but our legacy to the future is not one to take a lot of comfort from.
There is an underclass. Some can’t avoid it, some don’t actually know they are in it and unfortunately there are some who just enjoy it.
February 19th, 2007 at 3:04 pm
Sally, no offence but you three years of your husbands experience 10 years ago proves that this, totally different person, deserves to be villified after his death how exactly?
February 19th, 2007 at 3:12 pm
Sonic,
Stop talking nonsense. I have a rural property in Levin, and know of the family.
February 19th, 2007 at 3:16 pm
” I have a rural property in Levin, and know of the family”
You should pop over to the funeral and tell the whole family their deceased relative was ” an utter waste of space” then?
Or is taking cheap shots at him online the limit of your committment?
February 19th, 2007 at 3:34 pm
Cut the bullshit, Sonic.
What you can’t accept is that despite eight years of pretending to be the only people who have ever had compassion towards anybody, ever, you socialists haven’t come up with any answers.
The Waho and Kahui families are a plague on the rest of society. They are not, despite your pinko assurances, uncommon. They are encouraged by the socialist state to have children that they cannot care for, while engaging in criminal activity, violent crime, physical and mental abuse, and alcohol and drug abuse. They do not send their children to school, do not provide adequate housing for their children, and do not provide proper medical care–despite huge state subsidies to do so.
It is not in your beloved party’s political interests to prevent the grievance, welfare-based dependency that gives the likes of Phillip Field huge majorities in Otara. But let’s stop pretending that you actually care about the children when you are so willing to encourage their sozzled, violent, drug-addicted parents to abuse them with impunity.
February 19th, 2007 at 3:45 pm
So the poor are now a “plague” IP, whats next on your list, they are “rats”?
We all know where you stand, you want to see the poor being sterilised.
Just a pity you also stoop to slandering the dead as well.
February 19th, 2007 at 3:54 pm
Sonic,
You are the master of the vague one line throwaway.
Would you please enlighten in a little detail as to just how you see the ills of society being righted, particularly for that group that don’t seem to respond to the generosity of your socialist fellow travellers. Yes there are poor and unfortunate who deservedly need help but please tell us how to fix the ferals and vermin who actually take resources from the genuinely needy.
Please not a one liner in reply
February 19th, 2007 at 3:56 pm
Sonic, your reluctance to engage and debate the points raised by IP is lamentable.
He’s clearly defined and stated his position. Now, stop your attack of the man and instead present your Labourite ideas on welfare.
February 19th, 2007 at 4:02 pm
“your reluctance to engage and debate the points raised by IP”
His “points” being saying that this man is a “waste of space” and a sozzled, violent, drug-addicted child abuser?
You think that is a fair enough thing to say about someone based on zero evidence? Do you think that is a political point?
February 19th, 2007 at 4:03 pm
Hes dead and good riddance…one less parasite on the rest of us….and one less vote for Clark and her dependency dealers.
February 19th, 2007 at 4:06 pm
And James says what, alas, far too many people that post on here think.
Although weirdly me pointing that out makes me some people accuse me of “ad hominem” attacks.
It’s a crazy world right enough.
February 19th, 2007 at 4:17 pm
Sonic,
Please rise to the challenge of postulating some worthy ideas in response. Your instant one liners don’t tell us anything that is helpful.
February 19th, 2007 at 4:29 pm
Funny cubit gets more upset at my posts being short than he does about someone being pleased a man has died as it might be one less vote against his political party,
Why is that Cubit did you miss the post or just secretly share the sentiment?
February 19th, 2007 at 4:50 pm
Sonic,
I am not very concerned about the guy in Levin. I suspect he has brought the situation on himself through ignorance, bravado or sheer bloodmindedness. I am very concerned about the innocent children he has created who are not going to have meaningful lives. I am also concerned for the little innocents in yesterdays Hutt valley tragedy. No doubt the focus will be moved by the blame cult to the ills of society created by someone else.
Pay some attention to the issue and give us the benefit of your vast experience as to how these matters can be best resolved.
February 19th, 2007 at 4:51 pm
Sonic,
I am not very concerned about the guy in Levin. I suspect he has brought the situation on himself through ignorance, bravado or sheer bloodmindedness. I am very concerned about the innocent children he has created who are not going to have meaningful lives. I am also concerned for the little innocents in yesterdays Hutt valley tragedy. No doubt the focus will be moved by the blame cult to the ills of society created by someone else.
Pay some attention to the issue and give us the benefit of your vast experience as to how these matters can be best resolved.
February 19th, 2007 at 4:54 pm
“I am not very concerned about the guy in Levin”
No way!, you don’t actually care, I’m shocked, shocked I tell you.
“am very concerned about the innocent children he has created”
But happy they have been left fatherless, now is it just me or is there a slight contradiction there?
So what is the cut-off age for when you deign to care about your fellow man, 14? 16? 21?
At what point does the tragic death of a human being become a matter of indifference to you?
Would you slander a dead 17 year old for example, but not a dead 5 year old?
February 19th, 2007 at 4:59 pm
And dear sonic The rise and rise of John Key is because he and the Nats have tumbled to what Sally and IP and others have posted here. Finally the crapola from the Socialists is being shown up for just that. The hand wringing and despair from the Divine Heavenly Beloved Leader is just for show.She is the absolute cynic using the poor as a weapon to achieve and hang onto power.
Well the shows over for her.Smarmy Flick off and Duck are all sharpening up the knives. The only decision is Do they wait for her to lead them to defeat in 08 or do they strike when not if the Nats reach the 50 points and JK closes right up on her in the PPM stakes.My pick is that they will wait and let her crash and burn.
Cant wait for the next round of polls.
February 19th, 2007 at 5:01 pm
Sonic – I knew it wouldn’t take long for the deniers and enablers like Sonic to rear their blind heads. I was merely pointing out how widespread the likes of the Waho ‘Mr Pimp’ types are out there as they were ten years ago and as they are now.
My husband saw so many, sickly, dysfunctional, teenagers and young adults in his clinic’s all those years ago and he seems them NOW – just the new generation but in a different setting. He noted with surprise that a boy he treated as a young lad in Northland presented to him with his own sickly baby at a city hospital just recently. This new teenage father was Maori, unemployed and left to hold the baby as the teenage mother ‘who loved the dak’ had disappeared. My husband has alerted all the appropriate agencies to offer this new dad support.
I hope Sonic you are booking three weeks of annual leave to the Hokianga, Flaxmere or East Cape as a bracing introduction to how those out of the gaze of Policy anaylsts etc who dwell on The Terrace, live.
February 19th, 2007 at 5:02 pm
Gd, ever since I first stumbled onto this blog you have been predicting that Labour is about to fall apart into internecine warfare.
How long has that been now, 2 years?
Even a stopped clock gets it right twice a day Mr Gd, you are not even close to that level of accuracy.
Don’t start calling yourself New Zealand’s answer to Nostradamus just yet.
February 19th, 2007 at 5:07 pm
Sally, how do you keep up that high level of concern for your fellow human beings?
Must be a strain always thinking the best of everyone and giving all the same chance, many people would just resort to crude stereotyping of people just because of their race and where they live.
You are truly an example to us all in this cynical age.
Still interesting to note that, apart from me, not a single commentator has objected to James’s foul comment.
I wonder why?
February 19th, 2007 at 5:15 pm
Sonic – don’t want to get your hands dirty? Why don’t you pop down to a Starship/Keneperu Hospital clinic and show your “high level of concern” by offering to help a family or a single parent.
I am sure they can’t wait for a caring socialist to posture and ‘understand’ them like you do Sonic.
February 19th, 2007 at 5:20 pm
Is that really all you have left Sally?
You have, I’m sorry to say, no idea of what I do with my life. I can say though that I have no guilty feelings about what I do at all, and also no reason to start smearing the dead before they are cold in their graves.
Think on this Sally
….No man is an island, entire of itself…any man’s death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.”
February 19th, 2007 at 5:41 pm
Sonic – you slag me in your 5.07pm post for having no compassion etc, despite the fact my husband in particular has been a frontliner for the underclass for years.
I have never met so many ‘concerned’ socialists in all my life that breed like rats out of Wellington, all live in whitebread suburbs. My husband has challenged the Chardonnay socialists and govt workers we have met socially and pontificate to him, to listen and to observe his clinics and the clientele. In all his years not ONE has ever accepted his challenge.
Can you answer me that Sonic, rather than attack the messenger.
February 19th, 2007 at 5:46 pm
Sonic,
You are clearly insane. You have the gall to quote John Donne, yet Labour’s entire policy is about giving money to people who cannot care for themselves so as to encourage them to create more misery for themselves and their families, yet state that it’s against human nature to require parents who have chosen to have children to take even a slight interest in their children’s welfare.
The reality is, Sonic–and the media have finally cottoned onto it–that the Waho and Kahui families are wide-spread in New Zealand. They do not access proper medical care for their children, do not require their children go to school, do not feed them properly, do not provide adequate housing, expose their children to domestic violence, alcohol and drug addiction, and gangs–yet you refuse to even try to defend the state’s record of taking no action against irresponsible parents.
The truth is, Sonic, you are doing nothing to assist impoverished, morally absent people from taking even the most simple responsibilities for their children. Labour’s only response is to throw even more money at the problem, so that white liberals such as yourself can sit in your well-paid government jobs and feel less guilty about the underclass.
It doesn’t work. The vulnerable children, and taxpayers, deserve far better than what you snivelling, hand-wringing pinkos are doing.
February 19th, 2007 at 6:07 pm
Insolent Prick – remember Sonic’s contributions to the Kahui debate? Don’t hold your breath, but Sonic may care to comment on this story: http://www.stuff.co.nz/3966596a10.html.
February 19th, 2007 at 6:43 pm
Ha, when Don Brash ‘has an affair’, no one is allowed to mention it (‘might not be true’, you see… and anyway ‘he’s only human, right?’, ‘ah, poor Don, leave him alone’), yet someone’s death notice is published on a blog and the next minute people have his whole life figured out, never mind that it’s all completely made up, however that minor detail appears to have been overshadowed by all the hatred people seem to have for this dead man.
Hope you guys never get selected to be on a jury.
aladin
February 19th, 2007 at 7:24 pm
You’re too late. Subsonic’s train home from a hard day’s ernest yakka on The Terrace left Quay Street at 5:30.
You must be charitable however. After all he’s utterly prostrate with grief at the news of “The Pimp’s” passing.
February 19th, 2007 at 7:38 pm
OK, so where are all the solutions? I agree the Waho’s and Kahui’s of the country are more widespread than commonly believed, and that they represent a problem that Labour’s response is not quite up to the measure of. I don’t hear any meaningful, practical solutions from the right though, other than the usual faith in the usual ideological blather. Or, in this thread, the usual “blardy welfare bludger wastes-of-space…” lines.
What would you actually do to solve the problem of intergenerational welfare and all the trouble that goes with it? Real, practical solutions only, please.
February 19th, 2007 at 7:43 pm
Fair enough Aladin, you seem to be some what upset with comments so far but given what we know and the way New Zealand works why do you blame people for making the comments they do. You claim it is all made up, then please tell us about the real Mr Pimp. I bet you can’t.
My two cents worth. This man deserves a state funeral look at all the Liarbour voters he has produced.
February 19th, 2007 at 9:03 pm
From side show bob: “…but given what we know…”
you mean the facts, right? Not that blurb that DPF and most of the above have been spouting.
“…and the way New Zealand works…”,
you mean prejudiced and racist? Hear 10% and make up the rest?
“…why do you blame people for making the comments they do…”
who else can I blame?
aladin
February 19th, 2007 at 9:29 pm
No takers? How surprising.
February 19th, 2007 at 10:08 pm
Ahh well at least someone still has a sense of humour – Sir David , have you seen how you are billed on Blairs blogroll? I have to say after reading this thread maybe he needs to change the names around.
Hedgehog said -
“I can say though that I have no guilty feelings about what I do at all,”
From the amount of time you spend trolling here I would say that feeling guilty about doing nothing is the least of your worries.
Have you ever actually been to Levin, Sonic? or up the East coast or the Far north? I don’t mean just drive through but actually stop and stay for a few days. From your almost complete naiviety about the problems we face as a country I would say NO.
Maybe you could do something a little more useful than trolling here and go out in the real world and help some real people.
The funniest thing is when sally gives her first hand experience you degrade her.
Then when IP tells you he actually KNOWS the family concerned (in other words – knows more about the situation than you do ) you say – “You think that is a fair enough thing to say about someone based on zero evidence?”.
And that about sums you up Sonic, right there.
Sir David – really, how much longer are you going to put up with this troll derailing every thread?
14 comments on this post alone.
14 comments = TROLL
February 19th, 2007 at 10:11 pm
K1,
OK, I’ll take up your challenge.
There is one relatively simple step that can be taken to reduce the problem, and I have commented on this in another thread.
The socialist argument is that the rich have a responsibility to provide for the less fortunate, and the government has taken the place of voluntary charity by taking on the responsibility of collecting “donations” and redistributing them.
The state has been very enthusiastic in this endevour, but they have neglected the second half of the equation.
If there is a responsibility for the rich to provide, there is also a responsibility for the receiver to use the “charity” for the purpose that it is given.
Any parent receiving a benefit for the purpose of providing for a child has a responsibility to the state (that is us as well as the government) to provide for the child. If they fail in that responsibility then there should be a scaled response, starting with training, and ending with the last resort being the state taking over the welfare of the child (and the parent losing the benefit).
This same thing can be done with other benefits. Incentives could also be used for positive initiative. You could, for example, run a scheme whereby any beneficiary (sickness, unemployment, even dpb) who takes a training course could get a one off cash bonus if they get and keep a permanent job for a given length of time.
February 19th, 2007 at 10:12 pm
K1, I (and others) have posted many times on what we think needs to be done – I think some of the positions are very common on the right. Since the left never have much interest in talking about it, it gets a bit boring posting it – a lot of typing for pretty much the same response you get from just writing a one liner.
The solution boils down to a few factors:
1. Make it attractive to get a job. Marginal tax rates and the gap between the minimum wage and the benefit are the keys. Raising the minimum wage doesn’t work – it just reduces the number of jobs available. Marginal tax rates are the easiest way to deal with this – keeping 70% of what you earn, rather than losing 90% through abatement rates and taxes would make a huge difference, and create a clear ladder from dole to part-time work to full-time work.
2. Make it less easy to be on a benefit – a job requires you to be at work 40 hours a week for little extra money beyond staying at home all day. So other than fixing the pay gap, you also need to fix the time gap – some requirement for training, work for the dole, regular re-registration (to deter fraud) – basically make being on the dole require almost as much work as holding down a job.
3. Make it more attractive to take a punt on someone without a work history, or with a criminal history or whatever. Probation periods and relaxing of some restrictions to firing staff are important here
4. Real support to give people the skills they need to hold down a job. Basic literacy and numeracy are essential – our schools are failing too many kids
5. Deal with people on the other benefits beyond the dole – many people on the sickness benefits (or ACC – the forgotten benefit) are able to hold down a job – just not the job they want or the job they once had.
There are a few other points, but unless I get a response I won’t bother with the typing.
February 19th, 2007 at 10:47 pm
I also am surprised and concerned at the very small number of dismayed responses to James’ vile post – “Hes dead and good riddance…one less parasite on the rest of us….and one less vote for Clark and her dependency dealers.”
Sonic’s stance of not condemning this man seems to me a good example of the trait of tolerance – which is essential to the working of any good system of social structure including my own personal favourite, the market based capitalist system.
I also hope that tolerance is a trait which need not be politicised, but browsing through the responses has made me wonder.
I also think many of the ideas proposed by PaulL have some merit at least at face value.
February 20th, 2007 at 5:22 am
Lexon: I suggest you stick around and familiarise yourself with Subsonic’s antics. He has form.
February 20th, 2007 at 10:52 am
If you dont have the time to do that Lexon, you can always ask my little stalker above what I am up to, he is out every night scouring the train stations of Wellington looking for a fast moving, digital hedgehog shape!
February 20th, 2007 at 11:48 am
Whose population is increasing, and whose population is declining? Whitey you must be sh*tting yourself! What will the makeup up this country be like by 2025? 2050? Ha ha ha
February 20th, 2007 at 2:11 pm
Max – I am shitting myself not because of NZ becoming more brown but because Maori and PIers, who have the future demographic edge, are still figuring generations later in all the wrong stats and I wonder how fast we can turn that around ao future generations of taxpayers are not further unburdened and we have a population of motivated Maori and PIers guiding the country ensuring growth and stability for all.
Will the Maori and PIers babies born in 2007 be inculcated with the idea that they WILL be the surgeons, the accountants, the ITers, the scientists, the plumbers, the electricians, the vets, the architects, the teachers etc, for their generation and beyond.
Or in the next fifty years, while the Pakeha population ages and the skill base is not being replaced with educated and functional Maori and PIers, that instead thousands of skilled, English-speaking,globally competitive Indians, Chinese and other Asians, will dominate the skill vacum left by Pakeha, as Maori and PIers will still be tallking about improving their lot.
I can’t see that billions of Chinese and Indians are really going to give a toss about ‘The Treaty of Waitangi’ or the ‘tanagata whenua’ or loyalty to the Pacific people if it means all they see is unmotivated indigenous folk who are passive and a elderly and politically impotent Pakeha population. NZ will be a pushover.
February 20th, 2007 at 4:08 pm
Max – if you have a hat, I suggest you eat it.
Sally – scarily wise words.
K1 – here are some meaningful, practical solutions from the right.
Sonic – please post something meaningful. Some (rare) posts you make are full of insight. Why is it lacking here? Please explain what is right with the picture of a 35 year-old grandfather? I am not bagging the man, but surely you can hypothsize that he was not of a strong moral fibre, not a faithful husband (by a long shot) and not a good role model for his many, many children – who in all likelihood will fall (and have fallen) into the same benefit/poverty/vote-for-Labour trap?
February 20th, 2007 at 4:23 pm
“surely you can hypothsize”
No sorry, I’m not willing to start feeling all morally superior to someone on the basis of such scant information.
February 20th, 2007 at 5:00 pm
No-one is asking you to feel morally superior Sonic.
I am just asking you what could be done to stop this sort of un”sustainable family” cycle.
February 20th, 2007 at 6:17 pm
From Seamonkey Madness: “…he was not of a strong moral fibre, not a faithful husband (by a long shot) and not a good role model…”
For a minute there I thought you were talking about Don Brash.
aladin
February 20th, 2007 at 6:50 pm
Oh, hardy har har.
So now Don Brash is a 35 year old grandfather named Mr Pimp.
Doofus.
February 20th, 2007 at 7:01 pm
PaulL:
K1, I (and others) have posted many times on what we think needs to be done
Sorry, have been busy, don’t hang around here all day long, musta missed it
1. Make it attractive to get a job. Marginal tax… abatement rates…
100% agree – a good start. But: when was the current regime introduced and by whom? (Genuine question, my understanding is that it not a specifically Labour policy, and has not been addressed by National govts in the past. But I may be wrong, and would welcome someone who actually knows clarifying this). Why is this not changed?
2. Make it less easy to be on a benefit
Hmmm. Yes, kinda, to the principle, but no to the practice. You would just be making further problems. Work for the dole is either meaningless make-work, or is/should already be being done by conventional labour market sectors. Are you sure this isn’t just punishment?
3. Make it more attractive to take a punt on someone without a work history
Maybe, but not by a lot. This has been discussed at length elsewhere. It may help a teeny bit, but is also open to abuse (be honest). Some of us are skeptical about the trustworthiness of employers for good reason (and I’ve been on both sides of the employment equation). I don’t think this is a game-changer, though; the only way I’d hire someone with no work history or current skills is if the market was obscenely tight and I effectively had no alternative. And, it’d affect what was offered in terms of pay and conditions, so it’s also not the path to a high-wage economy.
4. Real support to give people the skills they need to hold down a job.
Dunno, I thought this was an area WINZ was doing Ok in. And you’re pointing out a problem, not saying how to fix it. Education is a big portfolio to improve, neither party has a stellar track record. Real solutions, please.
5. Deal with people on the other benefits beyond the dole…
Interesting choice of words. Deal with how exactly? What do you do with the truckie who buggers his back up and can’t drive all day, or be a manual labourer or similar, and has no office work experience. Would you, as an employer, want to hire someone like that, take all the pain and risk of training them for a role they’ve shown no aptitude for or interest in? Or would you see the goverment forcing this to happen? Remember, these are meant to be practical solutions.
I don’t hold the view that there are *no* solutions being offered by the right – just that they’re hopelessly naive. These are difficult issues, not helped along by demonising the other party, as usually happens here.
IP, I’ll respond to your post separately, if you don’t mind. Work to do, gotta go.
February 20th, 2007 at 10:15 pm
OK, IP’s turn, this time with scores out of 5:
1. Requirement for all long-term unemployed to report to Work and Income at 9am daily to collect their benefit. Get them into the habit of getting out of bed.
Score 1. Administration costs? Extra staff to deal with the influx of people? Sick days? (Would you need a medical certificate? Who would pay?) I assume you’d withhold the benefit if someone wasn’t there by a set time? After which, what would you expect they would do – go home and peacefully contemplate their tardiness?
The unemployment benefit isn’t a job. Kinda obvious when you think about it. Stop punishing people for getting something for nothing.
2. Pay a bonus of $2,000 to all women who have been on the DPB for more than two years, to get their tubes tied.
Score 2 but only if you strike the bit about being on the DPB.
3. Pay bonuses of $1000 to all fathers of welfare-dependent children to have vasectomies.
Score 2. See above. Sheesh, talk about treating ‘them’ as an underclass…
4. Pay bonuses of $500 to WINZ staff for moving a long-term beneficiary from welfare into work. Bonus payable after six months of continuous employment by the beneficiary.
Score 4. Hey, not a bad idea, and fairly easy to do. May need a bit of watching to ensure staff don’t rort the system somehow, but this may be your single good idea.
5. Every child receiving welfare must have their father named on birth certificates.
Score 1. And in the ‘I don’t know’ cases? Or the ‘I won’t tell’ (for any number of good reasons as well as bad ones)? I assume you would withhold any benefit payment? And how would you handle the first case of a desperate mum dumping her baby on the church steps – or worse?
6. No welfare entitlements to the father of children living with mothers on the DPB.
Score 0. WTF? You’d rather force people to cohabit in order to collect a benefit when they may have a very good reason for having split? I don’t know where to start with this one. What exactly do you expect the fathers to do in this case? I can just imagine the standover tactics, and the losers would be the mothers and children. This would make the current situation worse, not better.
7. Non-custodial fathers must be in paid employment, and must make minimum contributions of $50 per week.
Score 0, impractical. And if they’re genuinely trying to find a job, but not employed, honest, guv? Whose benefit would you withhold then, and what would be the consequences? And if they are employed, so not on a benefit, and refuse to pay? Whose benefit ya gonna attach then?
Also, you going to ensure that the employment they’re in pays enough for them to meet a $50/wk garnishee order plus live? Minimum wage is hardly generous, and I hear you lot aren’t keen to lift it either. Also: enforcement costs, collection costs?
8. Fathers not permitted to leave New Zealand while children living with a dependent DPB beneficiary.
Score 2. Yeah, maybe. Unless that’s a good way for them to earn cash to send home to pay your $50/wk above… Smacks of police state, though, don’t remotely think it would be an electable policy.
9. Children must attend school. Non-attendance would lead to the benefit being cancelled.
Score 0: School attendance = good. No food on the table because your benefit’s been cancelled becaue your snotrag teenager has a truancy problem = bad, for everyone, leading to said kid getting a warm swat across the ear, or worse. Linking the kids behaviour to the financial well-being of the entire family is dumb – do you have kids?
Also: enforcement costs – schools are busy enough without having to dob in all the truants to WINZ too.
10. All children must receive medical check-ups at least every six months, to check on the nutritional and general health status of the child.
Score 1. Paid for how? (Tax cuts?) And who sets the standards for nutritional and health status? And what about the kids of those people who make minimum wage, only just?
11. Random alcohol and drug checks of long-term welfare beneficiaries.
Score 0.5. Standards. Enforcement costs. The wisdom of withholding a benefit from someone (I assume this is what you propose) with a drug problem. Rehab costs and approach. How about random drug and alcohol tests of wealthy but disaffected executives? Or middle class teachers? Or ambulance drivers? What are you trying to achieve?
12. No violent offenders permitted to live in the same home as children of welfare beneficiaries.
Score 1. How about violent offenders prosecuted as per the law of the land and locked up as necessary (until reformed)?
13. A maximum six months of entitlement to the unemployment benefit in any five year period, and a maximum of two years’ entitlement to the DPB for any person in their lifetime.
Score 1, no, 0: What happens after you exceed the thresholds you’ve set here? What do you think this would do to crime stats? Any party openly stating this as their policy would be almost certainly unelectable, in the real world – you should try and visit sometime.
14. Frequent, random checks of homes of welfare dependent children to assess housing needs and compliance.
Score 1: Gawd, you righties love constructing systems that require endless bloody policing, don’tcha?
15.5/70 = Fail. Sorry, try again.
February 20th, 2007 at 10:32 pm
K1:
Posting before – not on this thread, but there have been plenty of similar ones, often, as you note, with the usual crap and no particular insight.
1. Current regime has been around for a long time, and parties of all stripes have had opportunity to change it. It is hard to change – running a gradual enough abatement rate makes people way up into middle income into beneficiaries. But Labour already did that with WFF – I would prefer something across the board than something like WFF – it would be more effective.
2. Not just punishment. You’ll note I included training and other initiatives. Basically the point is that you can’t just sit on your backside collecting a benefit when there are clearly jobs out there. You need to either get a job, actively do things to make yourself more employable, or we will find something for you to occupy your time with. The discipline of getting out of bed and turning up to something (anything) is to my mind a form of training. I agree that some things that people tout as work for the dole just displace work that somebody else would have been doing, but that isn’t the case with all such work.
3. This is a real issue. There are jobs out there, but people who are unemployed. So, either they don’t want the job (addressed by making sure that being on a benefit isn’t actually easier), they can’t do the job (addressed by training), or the employer doesn’t want them (in which case, it is usually due to not wanting to take a risk – they are choosing to have nobody instead of the person in front of them). Address the risk, and you increase the likelihood of employment. You are right, some might abuse it, but how much worse off would the employees be than they were when they were unemployed?
4. WINZ do a crap job of this. They don’t really care, and their case managers are generally overloaded. Are you telling me that if I found you a current long-term unemployed person you couldn’t come up with a decent training programme that made that person employable? What is the barrier here? Education is a part of it – people shouldn’t be turned out of school without the skills to hold a job. Equally, WINZ should have real plans to deliver the skills to the unemployed that they need to become employable. I’m sorry you don’t believe this is a fixable problem, I believe that it is. To not fix it is to accept these folk will never have a job.
5. Deal with – meaning similar initiatives to those I described for the dole. I believe there are too many people on the sickness benefit who are capable of holding a job (not saying there aren’t some who are so incapacitated they will never have a job). Because you are injured doesn’t mean you can opt out of the workforce forever even though you can work – you will need to adjust to your new circumstances. I see the sickness benefit for many (even most) as a transitory benefit that you spend some time on, then retrain, relearn, rehabilitate and move to a job you can do. Are you suggesting that it is reasonable that these folk will stay on a benefit forever because they can no longer do the work they used to do?
Since you asked us for solutions, I offered some, which you see as hopelessly naive. Let us know what your solutions are, which presumably aren’t hopelessly naive, and which presumably have some chance of actually working. Or, alternatively, feel free to come out and tell us that you think it is perfectly OK for these folks to stay on a benefit forever – it is their right or whatever.
February 21st, 2007 at 8:40 am
PaulL, you may have missed my points. As I pointed out, some of your ideas have merit philosophically, but the devil is in the implementation details.
WFF is indeed a good approach to addressing the disincentive to getting back to work, but it’s been vilified here at length. And no, it’s not perfect, but perhaps worth giving a chance. Making the benefit harder to get punishes those who’re genuinely trying to get back on their feet equally to those who are avoid work at all costs. Many of your other ideas, as I pointed out, are expensive to implement for relatively little gain, or introduce additional complexity where things aren’t working optimally already. Changing governments is easy. Meaningfully changing the culture and approach at WINZ is a bit harder.
Big issues, like climate change, benefit dependency, economic development, etc, of which we face all too many, are not best served by the petty partisan approach that NZ politics usually manages as it’s best effort. Read the quote in the house (somewhere in the last two sessions) from the Barnardos dude.
As to my solutions, I think providing positive encouragements to get off the benefit are good (eg. IP’s sole gem above). All of the punitive crap is just that, won’t work, will cost too much. And I’ll just ignore your last sentence, shall I?
February 21st, 2007 at 9:08 am
K1, I don’t see why you see initiatives like reducing the barriers to getting a job (probation periods) as being punitive.
You actually didn’t suggest that the ideas I provided were expensive to implement or introduce additional complexity. Are you confusing me with IP?
The answers you gave were very much along the lines of “not sure this will work” or “there are some questions here.”
I am genuinely interested in what you see as the solutions that are being offered by the left. You clearly believe those offered by the right won’t work or are naive, but I just don’t understand what you see the alternative as being.
I don’t believe the current policies are making a meaningful reduction in long-term unemployed, I don’t see why sickness beneficiaries would be rising at a time when life expectancy and health are higher than at any other time in history. I think we need some new approaches. I remain unconvinced that our current government even accepts this as an issue – I talk to too many people on the left who see living on a benefit as being a valid lifestyle choice, rather than seeing a benefit as being short-term bridging until you can find your feet.
February 1st, 2008 at 12:47 am
The Nomads are not a chapter of the Mongrel Mob. Denis Hines formed the Nomads as thought the Black Power were losing their edge and weren’t staunch enough. You couldn’t be more wrong in your contention. Idiot!