Were they individuals or was it the Exclusive Brethren?
February 26th, 2007 at 5:32 pm by David FarrarI think it is a nonsense for the Exclusive Brethren to claim the church wasn’t involved in politics, just a number of individuals. It may be true in a very narrow technical sense, but it ignores the reality. It’s a bit like King Henry asking “Who will rid me of this turbulent priest” and then claiming he never ordered the Archbishop killed.
There are three reasons why one can only conclude that the church at a minimum encouraged, if not mandated, political involvement.
1) They have got involved not just in NZ, but all around the world. This can not be a coincidence, but implies central direction.
2) The seven Brethren who paid for the pamphlets were senior members of the church, not just seven ordinary members.
3) All over NZ, hundreds, maybe thousands, of Brethren offered assistance with delivering letters etc.
You can not take all of the above, and then claim oh it is just a few “over-enthusiastic members”.
The NZ Herald article suggests the Brethren will not be involved in politics in the future. Good.
No tag for this post.
February 26th, 2007 at 7:48 pm
The bigger question is: so what if it was?
What was so wrong about a religious group campaigning against govt policy?
If they didn’t follow the electioneering rules, then fair enough to castigate them specifically for that, but most of the hysteria has been focused around the peculiar nature of their religion, rather than their actions.
Vote:February 26th, 2007 at 8:39 pm
when i heard (john keys’ advisor) matthew hooten spinning all over this on national radio today..
i just assumed it was part of a co-ordinated national party/exclusive brethren attempt to defuse the damming material which is in nicky hagers’ book..
(i mean..what else is it ..?..)
and material which labour hasn’t even started to use against national..
yet…
eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:February 26th, 2007 at 8:42 pm
so it’s ok for muslims, homosexuals, unionists, socialists, communists, business roundtables, maori sovereignty campaigners, pacific island rights campaigners, immigrant campaigners, ‘human rights’ activits, drug takers and more to be involved in politics, but it’s ‘good’ that the brethern aren’t involved?
Vote:February 26th, 2007 at 8:43 pm
when i heard (john keys’ advisor) matthew hooten spinning all over this on national radio today..
i just assumed it was part of a co-ordinated national party/exclusive brethren attempt to defuse the damming material which is in nicky hagers’ book..
(i mean..what else is it ..?..)
and material which labour hasn’t even started to use against national..
yet…
eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:February 26th, 2007 at 8:45 pm
The Brethren are amateurs who harm their cause more than they help it. If they want to play politics then they need some professional guidance.
Vote:February 26th, 2007 at 8:50 pm
Well said battler! I’d far rather the EB stayed out of politics, but they have every much a right as any of the “single-issue” groups you list. At least the seven EB businessmen can proudly state that they have broken no laws, flouted no rules, and most importantly, they have paid their bills!!
Paid it back yet Helen?
Vote:February 26th, 2007 at 8:52 pm
Hey Phil
Vote:Started stuttering or is it just plain long term brain damage that causes uncontrollable repetition? An attention span of less than 5 minutes is more the mark of a 1 year old than a mature adult.
February 26th, 2007 at 9:00 pm
the demonisation of the exclusive brethren by the dykocracy and its lapdog media is a disgracefull stain on our poltical history.
Vote:And no; I am an atheist for what it matters, i am all for christian zealotry, no stealing, no drugs, keep your head down kind of people.
We need more people like this steering the feeble minded away from a life of criminality and dependancy. Tamaki is a prime example of this, he has done more to clean up south auckland in the last 7 years than the regime.
February 26th, 2007 at 9:28 pm
At least the seven EB businessmen can proudly state that they have broken no laws,
I thought they put false names and addresses on at least one of the pamphlets? But I might not have the story straight…. can somone give me the gospel on this?
Vote:February 26th, 2007 at 9:28 pm
battler..i think the problem is with the secrecy/lies/cover-ups..
and that’s just in national..!
religous groups specialising in ‘dirty-deeds’ isn’t a good look..eh..?
and good one barnsley..!..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:February 26th, 2007 at 9:31 pm
how utterly boring,
Vote:February 26th, 2007 at 9:33 pm
“i think the problem is with the secrecy/lies/cover-ups..”
you mean….
doonegate?
corngate?
pledgegate?
paintergate?
fieldgate?
speedgate?
Vote:February 26th, 2007 at 9:37 pm
Oh DEAR GOD. You have all missed the point of David’s post.
The EB are welcome to get involved in politics, just like all the ‘muslims, homosexuals, unionists, socialists, communists, business roundtables, maori sovereignty campaigners, pacific island rights campaigners, immigrant campaigners, ‘human rights’ activits, drug takers’ are as well.
The issue at hand is that the EB are trying to deny their involvement in the political process, whereas the above group make no secret of their involvement. In an open democracy it is crucial that we know what groups are playing a part in influencing the decision makers – for instance -that’s why submissions (apart from Government agencies and Ministries) to select committee are accessible to the public.
Get a gripe guys.
Vote:February 26th, 2007 at 9:46 pm
There’s no difference between the EB having a say in politics and the homosexual lobby having a say in politics. Unless you’re a pseudo-liberal that is.
Vote:February 26th, 2007 at 9:51 pm
Phil, people have an issue with tamaki because of the self agrandisement and profit making, but he is straightening these feeble minded morons out, and while they are worshiping in this cult of personality they are not beating/ killing family/me/you, nor are they living a lfe of dependancy with their hands out. Frankly i think people who need a higher power to help them sleep should still be sleeping in caves but if it stops them bothering me then I say fanfrickintastic.
Vote:February 26th, 2007 at 10:44 pm
I cannot understand why the EB have rekindled this PR disaster.
1. They did nothing illegal!
2. The average voter thinks they did, thanks to Labour’s spin machine.
3. Why remind the electorate?
4. Why fuel sentiment for that awefully socialist concept of “democarcy funding” ie, we all have to pay for parties who’s policies we object to? (just because they can’t attract the dosh themselves).
Vote:February 26th, 2007 at 10:50 pm
But upon reflection I guess that if E2005 is to be re-litigated by the media … has Labour “Paid it Back?”. No, didn’t think so.
Vote:February 26th, 2007 at 11:19 pm
“Get a gripe guys.”
I’m not sure there’s many people on Kiwiblog short of those…
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 12:59 am
Woh, I think we can take that posting as DPF’s apology, similar to the Tony Milne “rhetoric” post. A simple sorry would do, David.
“The Brethren are amateurs who harm their cause more than they help it. If they want to play politics then they need some professional guidance.”
Well, they did. You might want to re-read Hager’s book.
BYW, for those who claim they did nothing illegal, the CEO did refer them to the police for breaches of the electoral act. It just so happens that, surprise, the police chose not to prosecute.
Kind of balances the ledger, no?
RB “There’s no difference between the EB having a say in politics and the homosexual lobby having a say in politics.”
Er, no, unless you are prepared to lie about who you are and spend a million bucks in the process. Then there is a difference.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 8:39 am
Battler.
You forgot yourself in there.
Wankergate
Tossergate.
Playing with yourselfgate
get over the gate-issms they are oh so tired and getting really boring.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 8:45 am
it gets a bit tough on the far left doesn’t it John.
you have to break laws, steal money and forge documents to achieve your political ends, and then retrospectively change the law and cancel court cases so you don’t get convicted of the crimes you commit.
then when others point it out you have to cry “tosser” and “wanker” because that’s all that’s left in your hollow arsenal.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 9:04 am
“Don Brash has nothing to fear over these silly allegations, I am confident he will be leading National to Victory in the next election”
David Farrar/Battler/Murray/Redbaiter/TC/PDQ etc, November 2006.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 9:55 am
DPF – The Brethren don’t elect the senor members of their church.
The decision to attack Labour/Green in the 2005 election was decided by a few & forced on the many. So it’s very reasonable to say this was driven by individuals rather than the church.
The same applies for a unions. We can’t assume the anti-national material the unions print represents every single members.
Give them a break DPF – they’re acting well with in their rights.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 10:34 am
No, wait, they did something else wrong. They used their own money!!! Most lobby groups rely on government handouts to do that, like the AIDS Foundation and Plunket. But no, the EBs used their own hard-earned cash to campaign against the Greens. That in a NZ’s version of a “liberal democracy” is a big no-no! Lucky we don’t burn people at the stake anymore.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 10:35 am
It is also a little late to start denying involvement. If they had done so at the start it might have been a bit more credible, rather than after 15 months, a published book and the resignation of the opposition leader.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 10:39 am
You silly little lying arsehole Sonic. I have never stated any such certainty. What an utter waste of time you are.
Give me a Christian with a strong moral code who knows the difference between right and wrong over a yellow backed oily little stand for nothing secular progressive like you Sonic any day.
As for the Brethren, on a personal level of collectively at least they showed some damn fight, unlike the Nats, who now that Brash is gone, are led by a compromiser and a socialist appeaser. What good will come of electing such a bunch of no idea losers??
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 10:49 am
“unless you are prepared to lie about who you are and spend a million bucks in the process.”
This statement in itself is a lie, and it shows the hollowness of your argument and the deceit of the left, who will always use lies, smears character assasination and propaganda as their preferred weapon.
The Brethren did not to my knowledge lie. Although of course they were accused of this by the left, it was never more than an allegation. Furthermore, I don’t care how much money they spent as long as it was their own money.
That the power crazed socialists can criticise and smear the Brethren when most of the money they themselves use for election campaigning is stolen from the public or coerced from unwiilling workers or raised by corrupt and immoral means is a measure of how bereft of morality and intellect they are.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 10:50 am
The problem of course is that the Exclusive Brethren are Christians, and Christianity must be marginalised and eradicated from public life. Turns out Brian Tamaki was right – the governemt is evil.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 10:56 am
other corrupt and immoral means…
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 11:06 am
Well that is Mr Baiter baited for another day!
Anyway back on topic, interesting article on the Australian Brethren here
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=5496
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 11:10 am
Lying and false allegations is your idea of baiting?? As if readers needed any more evidence of your gutter intellect and your shameless lack of principle. Well worth it tho Sonic, for objective readers of this forum to see Klark’s sycophantic cheerleaders exposed again and again and again as such hollow unprincipled unintelligent losers.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 11:16 am
“interesting article”
Just the same old same old leftist verbal flatulence.. interesting perhaps to a dinosauric bonehead like you Sonic, but tiresome and passeé to non-socialists.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 11:21 am
yes, whatever Mr Baiter.
Any chance of leaving a bit of space where the grown-ups could talk?
Thanks in advance
S
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 11:36 am
Slightly off topic, but recently read Dostoevskys “The Devils” – everything you ever needed to know about socialism. Extraordinarily prescient book considering it was written some 30 years prior to the russian revolution. There is a character in the book who claims to be acting out of concern for the public man, but whose real aim is simply to gain power for himself. When I read it I instantly thought of Comrade Clark. And like the devils in russia, they are leading new zealand to ruin.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 11:42 am
Oh look – so predictable. Sonic’s the fox in the henhouse clucking “Exclusive Brethren” like a chicken on crack.
Well Sonic, let’s cluck in unison: Labour’s big election spend-up, Labour’s great whip-round (is David Benson-Pope in the house?) and Labour’s repayment of misapplied funds – with use-of-money interest!
So, Sonic, any word from the Beehive as to when Labour’s grubby cookies will be returned to the jar?
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 11:42 am
Not my favourite work Chris, Dostoyevsky changed a lot after prison and the army.
However if anyone is interested you can download it free from here, it may be a bit reactionary in its politics but is still beautifully written
http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/8117
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 11:44 am
Oh look another little stalker!
Must be a dull life you lead mate.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 11:47 am
The exclusive brethren (should)have the same right to free speech and engage in politics as everyone else. Its also important to remind ourselves that not one cent of the money Labour spent on the pledge cards has been paid back yet. However labours behaviour in this area is much better than NZ Firsts, who haven’t even said they would pay it back.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 11:49 am
“…it shows the hollowness of your argument and the deceit of the left, who will always use lies, smears character assasination and propaganda as their preferred weapon.”
do you think redbaiter has a file full of ready-to-use anti-left diatribes ready for cutting and pasting onto DPF?
“…hollow unprincipled unintelligent losers.”
That would be hollow unprincipled unintelligent winners, wouldn’t it?
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 11:52 am
Hey Sonic, funny you would call it reactionary – thats exactly what they told Dostoevsky when he wrote it. The subsequent history of Russia supports his position. Or are you n apologist for Stalin as well?
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 11:53 am
“The exclusive brethren (should)have the same right to free speech and engage in politics as everyone else”
They do, they can vote but choose not to. They can join a political party but choose not to. They can be open about who they are when they produce propaganda but choose not to.
So instead they hide who they are, hire private detectives and run campiagns carefully designed to get round the countries electoral laws.
No-one would have a problem if they did engage in politics like we all do, the problem is they clearly do not.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 11:56 am
I’m no defender of Stalin Chris, but I’m not exactly a Tsarist either.
How about you?
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 12:23 pm
“yes, whatever Mr Baiter.
Any chance of leaving a bit of space where the grown-ups could talk?
Thanks in advance
S”
You better log off your computer then.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 12:39 pm
Looks like bater has been watching fox and swallowing mister Os ” culture warrior” hook line and sinker. As for anything original, so far no luck.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 12:40 pm
Why shouldnt they get involved in politics, they like many paye taxes, infact alot paye a huge amount in taxes, I suspect it would be another story if these people were land rights for whales folk, With all the media attention being given to the exclusive brethern, I ask people to change the wording from brethern to ” Rainbow Lobby” or even “Maori womans welfare leauge”
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 12:46 pm
“Why shouldnt they get involved in politics”
A question you should ask them!
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 12:54 pm
“A question you should ask them!”
Yet again, Sonic clucks “Exclusive Brethren” like a jack-booted Stanlist robot. Your modus operandi, Sonic, is to duck and parry with half-baked distractions. Such typical arrogant and self-serving conduct for a leftist. Well Sonic, how about asking questions put to YOU, like when will Labour finish off the whip-round it started?
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 1:27 pm
How would I know my little stalker chum?
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 1:30 pm
Sonic, Im often reading this blog and you seem to have nothing to do all day but just post stupid and nasty post, grow up.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 1:31 pm
I’m making perfectly fair points Matt, when it comes to stupid and nasty there are plenty of others on this thread you should be addressing.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 1:37 pm
yup you are right, its a negative aspect of the internet sonic I will grant you that, however that doesnt excuse your actions mate
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 1:41 pm
Self-defence is no offence Mark, if i make a simple point and get called “a jack-booted Stanlist robot” or “a little lying arsehole” I am going to respond, however I try and do so without swearing and with humour.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 1:51 pm
You were called a little lying arsehole for quite justified reasons. You don’t like being called that, my advice is just don’t lie.
You might well think your responses are “good humoured” but this is extremely presumptuous. You need to understand that what you see as humorous may not be quite so humorous to those not possessed of the narrow and ignorant socialist perspective that underpins most of what you write here.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 2:06 pm
See what I mean Matt?
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 2:07 pm
Hey Sonic, nah I’m not a Tsarist. But I think that does a disservice to Dostoevsky, who realized that the socialists would be worse than the Tsar. And they were. A great deal worse actually.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 2:17 pm
It may be news to you, Sonic, but others do see you as a jack-booted Stalinist, and it is quite appropriate to call you on it. You constantly pollute this discussion with irrelevant socialist dribble, while denying others the right to voice their opinions on the actual discussion topic, or posting cowardly smears about them. And when we do call you on it, Sonic, you’re off on another off-topic frolic. Terribly tragic.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 2:31 pm
As I said Matt, see what I mean.
I think you should take your complaints about “stupid and nasty” to the real offenders.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 3:11 pm
precious, you are compalining about being stung by a swarm of bees after beating the shit out of the hive with a big stick.
Vote:from your efforts to release tension you are obvioulsy backed up. might I suggest you spend some time masturbating extravagantly and then come back to post in a less heightened state.
February 27th, 2007 at 3:16 pm
“It may be news to you, Sonic, but others do see you as a jack-booted Stalinist, and it is quite appropriate to call you on it. You constantly pollute this discussion with irrelevant socialist dribble, while denying others the right to voice their opinions on the actual discussion topic, or posting cowardly smears about them. And when we do call you on it, Sonic, you’re off on another off-topic frolic. Terribly tragic.”
That’s all some big hilarious joke right? You are actually taking the Piss aren’t you Sonicbaiter? I mean Sonic is the most likely to stay on topic out of all the posters on here. How does he/she deny others the right to voice their opinions?
This is a smear:
“You silly little lying arsehole Sonic”
“dinosauric bonehead like you Sonic”
Besides, I’m not really sure that Dionsauric is actually a word.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 3:16 pm
I’m not complaining, I’m big and ugly enough to deal with these guys. However I do object to people calling me “nasty” considering the abuse I get.
So anyway I assume none of you have anything further to say on the actual topic?
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 3:51 pm
Hi sonic havent put my oar in yet so here goes. As much as I disagree with the EBs beliefs I would point out that as far as we know they spent their money not some other bastards which cant be said for any of the political parties who all suck off the taxpayer.And even though they dont vote I suggest per head they contribute more tax to the coffers than probably any other group in the country.As far as I know they earn their money be legal means. So in my book they deserve to have a crack at putting forward a view on how the country should be run.Other groups do this and no one gets their tits in a tangle. In fact some of the groups who are most vocal contribute sweet FA to the tax coffers.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 3:57 pm
GD thats fine, no-one is stopping them. However doing it secretly in an attempt to get round campiagn finance laws is a no-no.
If this was the US they’d be in jail.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 4:05 pm
Bullshit sonic, rip H2′s hand out of your arse mate. Stealing from the public purse would put you in jail in the US. Try discussing from that angle
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 4:10 pm
A bit like a certain also tried to get around campaign finance laws but took it one step further and stole the money to do it with.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 4:10 pm
A bit like a certain party who also tried to get around campaign finance laws but took it one step further and stole the money to do it with.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 4:18 pm
Mention the words ‘Exclusive Brethren’ to the usual bunch of right wingers and it is like a red rag to a bull. Honestly is there a single one of you out there who thought that the Exclusive Brethren in any way helped National at the last election??
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
Two wrongs make a right eh?
Funny how every party (including the Nats) got caught out using parliamentary funds for campaigning, yet only one had an obscure religious group colluding with it to blow a million dollars.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 4:29 pm
Sonic quick on the motivation trigger again I see. (refer ” …in an attempt to get round campiagn finance laws…”) I don’t see and have never seen a single scrap of evidence that this is the motivation.
If it was possible to be called a political bigot, you would qualify. At least most of the most rabid right wingers are willing to give credit where it is warranted. And when it comes to accusing the Government of taking taxpayer’s money to which they were not entitled and then retrospectively changing the law to “legitimise” it, the evidence is overwhelming and very public.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
” don’t see and have never seen a single scrap of evidence that this is the motivation.’
Have you read the Hollow Men? that is the whole thesis of the book and that is why Brash resigned over it.
You also do not address the simple point I made David, if Labour are guilty of that so are National, ACT, NZ First, United Future and the Green Party.
Oh sorry, thats the bit about the pledge card furore that you don’t like to mention.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 4:49 pm
Rocket Boy,
I think the EB’s campaign did a lot of harm to National’s chances.
Since the Greens tend to be further left than Labour on social and economic policy, any successful attack on the Greens would tend to shif votes to Labour (a bit like the disaffected votes from ACT going to National).
In MMP the party that forms the government is the one with the most individual seats. Had the EBs been smart, they would have run a campaign attacking Labour & favouring the Greens with the idea of splitting the Left vote and denying Labour the largest party status.
Something worth thinking about is what might happen if the EBs get smart at the next election, and run a campaign critical of National, & United Future. Its like getting a particularly obnoxious person to cheer for the other team, it can make people feel like supporting anyone except whoever the EBs favour.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 4:57 pm
The book is bollocks, full of innuendo and hearsay. Brash went because the national party wanted him out. the book had less to do with it than him getting sprung giving foreman a portion.
Vote:Nicky hager is a trustafarian student of onanism. The same gimp that burnt Klarke over the corn issue. It is irrelevant. the EB did not help the nats in anyway indeed the opposite could be suggested.
The issue we should all be screaming is the money that the dykocracy trousered to win the election and the ridicule they should be receiving as the real price of the election bribes start to bite. Clearly the first of these was the free childcare LIE.
SONIC YOU ARE THE SINGLE BEST AGITATOR THAT THE LEFT HAS IN THE BLOGOSHERE. I am stunned you are not granted the privilege of kneeling for H1 and H2 to put their feet upon you. There surely cannot be a better lefty suckhole than you at distracting from the thread. You are like a mallard minime with your games of interference and distraction.
February 27th, 2007 at 4:57 pm
What the hell is loose in your head you socialist clown. The Brethren spent their own money and did not break any laws. The only reason they have been subjected to a hate campaign by the Klark government and its sycophants (like you Sonic) is because they advocated a political view that challenged socialism. Had there been a pro socialist group doing this there would not have been a word said about it. For example the shady dealings that go on with unions and the government whereby taxpayer money is channeled into union accounts by means of phoney “grants” schemes and then spent on election material.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 5:02 pm
Sonic you need to change your posting name to SISYPHUS. It would be a much apt name for the task you have set yourself.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 5:08 pm
Wow.
How about the following?
- EB’s have just the same rights to get involved in politics in any legal way as anyone else
- The EB’s previous position on politics (non-involvement) possibly motivated them to choose ways to get involved that were on the QT, which would also be fine (yes, really) if they hadn’t crossed the line in illegal (false names) or morally questionable (private detectives, generally anonymous stuff) ways.
- They should be treated the same way as anyone else getting caught out doing those things, but should be be subject to additional hysteria on the basis of who they are (try substituting a group you like into the situation e.g. Unions or Plunket and review your response)
- The fact they “went negative” though, was probably to try to comply with rules where promoting a party directly counts against that party whether the party knows or not.
- National probably did meet with them in the exact same way as Don Brash eventually admitted (i.e. thinking they were a private group that might broadly promote something that might help National in the same way Unions promote Labour) but they got caught out by (1) EBs making mistakes, and (2) idiotically trying to deny any involvement and thereby seeming complicit.
- The issue is totally unrelated to campaign financing scandals, and the larger issue of private political advertising could be a seperate debate for the future but is currently practiced by groups of all ideologies and is in no way illegal.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 5:09 pm
Well other agnostic, secular people like Sonic and Mike Williams might agree with you David. I don’t, it shows an inability to distinguish your friends from your enemies and if such an attitude is prevalent in National ranks explains to a degree why they always come second.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 5:14 pm
I have to say that I am completely on the side of all the right wingers when it comes to the Exclusive Brethren. I completely 100% percent support the EB’s democratic right to completely stuff it up for National at the next election.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 5:49 pm
I see Barnsley Bill is the latest sufferer of Redbaiter derangement syndromme.
That sort of hysteria does your cause no good mate.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 6:33 pm
I see Barnsley Bill is the latest sufferer of Redbaiter derangement syndromme.
Sonic indulges in yet another cowardly smear against right-thinking individuals as so befits a leftist drone of his ilk. No-one asked for your opinion on Barnsley Bill’s psychological condition, you moron, and it’s presumptuous of you to give one. Not to mention contemptuous.
Earth to Planet Sonic: LABOUR PASSED RETROSPECTIVE LEGISLATION. How would you like it, Sonic, if Labour raided YOUR bank account and then passed legislation – supported by its usual lickspittle cronies – to get out of jail?
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 7:35 pm
Those RANDOM capitalisations are JUST so classy.
Got any point to make?
Thought not.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 7:58 pm
Yes, the “random” capitalisations are subtitles for chronically challenged leftists like you, Sonic, who constantly obfuscate or miss the point. And what was your point? Or do you earn your keep in the clutches of hte Beehive by attacking other non-conformists?
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 8:04 pm
You can often tell how intelligent a person is by their vocabulary and their ability to hold together a debate (without abuse. put-downs. Ganging up. Etc.)
Listening and making an effort to understand what others are trying to say is a crucial, simple and yet rare skill. Its funny how so many people are only capable of listening to themselves.
My advice to sonic – go find a place to debate with more intelligent people.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 8:15 pm
There are a lot of smart people here Birdie, you just have to deal with a bit of static occasionally.
I like exposing myself to what the other side is saying, best way to be sure your positions are right.
“do you earn your keep in the clutches of hte Beehive by attacking other non-conformists?”
No, but if anyone out there wants to make an offer….
s
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 8:35 pm
i think sonicbaiter is whaleblubber in drag..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 8:39 pm
So Sonic any chance of you putting up the links to evidence of the 20m sea rise you were quoting yesterday?
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 8:46 pm
Chicken, go back to the thread and read it properly (including the links I put up)
Then you can go and bury your head back in the sand again in the confident belief that all those scientists are just pretending global warming is happening because, er, sorry I never remember what the purpose of the vast “make up climate change” conspiracy is.
Is it the UFO’s? the Illuminati, the Vast Worldwide Communist movement? the Muslims? or SPECTRE?
I can never recall.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 10:14 pm
like Augie Auer basically said, in 15 to 20 years time people will look back and see things were no where near as bad as being predicted and all the wasteful actions to mitigate the supposed problem will have been a travesty.
Vote:February 28th, 2007 at 7:58 am
I’ve read the links Sonic – nowhere can I find any mention of a 20m sea rise in NZ.
Not telling porkies were ya?
I have never said there is a ‘vast “make up climate change” conspiracy’ , thats you putting all the people that disagree with your view in the same basket again so that you can feel all superior like.
All I’m asking for is the evidence to back up your statement. If you haven’t got it thats fine just tell me you were making up porkies to get a rise from…..well….just about anyone and we’ll leave it at that.
You continuously ask others to back up their statements on this site , but seem extremely reluctant to do so yourself.
Vote:February 28th, 2007 at 9:29 am
Chicken, as I said none so blind as those who choose not to see.
And none so tiresome I’m afraid.
It’s an outside possiblity, a worse case scenario but not impossible.
http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs2-00/
Vote:February 28th, 2007 at 11:52 am
Sonic,
Vote:You seem to be posting every few minutes. Are you getting hysterical? Shouldnt you be building your Ark in preparation for the sea around NZ rising by 20 meters?
Hurry, its rising. You may be swallowed up!
What gets me is that while we wait for this threat to arrive we quietly forget that Auckland is surrounded by Volcanoes. Which arent extinct.
How does that REAL threat stike you sonic and what is the Goverment going to do about that?
Hmmm
February 28th, 2007 at 1:00 pm
Captain Crab – you should know by now that Sonic doesn’t respond well to RANDOM capitalisations – see above.
Vote:February 28th, 2007 at 1:06 pm
Hmm 8.25 pm and 9.29 am constututes “every few minutes” in your world?
perhaps their is a link between not knowing the difference between am and pm, and knowing nothing about climate change.
Still you have Fred for support, that must be a comfort.
Vote:February 28th, 2007 at 1:21 pm
sonic, take a moment and go through this thread and look at how often you post.
Vote:This is a sample. 11.06, 11.21, 11.53,11.56,1.27,1.31,1.41,2.06,2.31,4.20,4.33.Looks like a few minutes to me.
It is just too easy to prove you are full of it.
We are all waiting for you to show us your knowledge of Climate Change. Whens that 20 meter rise going to happen again? And how?
I think the problem is there is no link between your mouth and your brain.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:23 pm
Sonic – There is very little in this world of ours that is impossible.
Should we apply your ‘outside possibility, worst case scenario’ theory to all your statements on this site?.
I apoligise for tiring you and for making you afraid but for the life of me, I can not, in the link you provided, find any mention of a 20m sea rise. Yes there is a mention of ALL ice in the world melting and a 125m rise from that, is that the ‘outside possibility’ you’re talking about?. Other than that a half metre rise in the next 150yrs is what is mentioned.
Now it has been a long, long time since I’ve been at school and the metric system may have changed somewhat in those intervening decades, also I’m obviously not as smart or well informed as you are but mistaking a possible half metre rise for a 20m rise seems a little…well…….
sloppy.
xxx
CL
Vote:February 28th, 2007 at 1:30 pm
Sonic – Also I notice that the link you have provided above was not one of the links you provided on the other thread yet you imply that it was sitting there all the time and you *sigh* had to copy it *sigh* over to this thread *sigh*. I fail to see how I could choose to see what you see when the information you provided today was not the information you provided yesterday.
Please explain.
Vote:February 28th, 2007 at 1:36 pm
Sonic has tab browsing so can flick back and forwards between here and the fisting porn he’s into…
Vote:February 28th, 2007 at 1:38 pm
Chicken Little – Sonic is currently taking directions from the Beehive. In future, and to save Sonic going to that trouble, you should stick to the Labour Party manuscript.
Vote:February 28th, 2007 at 1:40 pm
Is there some special service provider you chaps use, foolsonline.org or something.
There is a worst case scenario in certain versions of the climate change models (a sudden spike in temps, a sudden melting of the icecaps) that can lead to a very rapid, very large, rise in sea levels.
None of you have challenged that very simple point, no you have just wittered on with silly insults and ad hominem attacks.
So, unless you actually make a point that is worth bothering with (Which is highly unlikely but one must allow for every possiblity) I’m finished with you for today.
Go find someone your own age to play with, try whaleoil’s place, I hear that is where the “factually challenged” hang out these days.
Vote:February 28th, 2007 at 8:49 pm
1.40pm and you’ve had enough for today Sonic. I am suprised I must say. I’m sorry Sonic but I just can’t let this go.
So if we take the worst case scenario shouldn’t we also take the best case scenario? or should we stop somewhere in between that seems reasonable in the circumstances like….hmmmm…say half a meter? Is that fair?
Lets us have a look at your last comment on this thread shall we?
“There is a worst case scenario”
– Ok I get your worst case bit
“in certain versions of the climate change models”
- Ahh ‘certain versions’, could you point me to some please?
“(a sudden spike in temps, a sudden melting of the icecaps) that can lead to a very rapid, very large, rise in sea levels.”
-Could you also point me please Sonic to any time whilst modern humans have been on this Earth when this has happened? Lets say the last 100,000 years shall we?
TIA
xxx
CL
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