Turning in his grave?
Guess who said all the following:
17 Sep 1998 – “however one of the worst of old traditions still hanging on is abuse of urgency procedure.”
21 Dec 2001 – “Urgency should only be used for matters which are genuinely urgent, The only exception is that from time to time we have considered – and will continue to consider – approaches for extra sitting hours, and then only for one stage of a bill at a time.”
12 Jun 2002 – “We all know that urgency leads to bad legislation. It often leads to amendment bills to fix up mistakes that have happened because the original bill has been rushed through. We also know that Standing Orders exist for a reason–that is, to ensure considered passage of the law.”
20 July 2005 – “”The Greens have long stated that urgency should only be used where legislation is truly urgent.”
All that principle being washed away by the shabby little deal between Labour and Greens to try and ram the anti smacking bill through both remaining stages under urgency.
March 26th, 2007 at 1:10 pm
I guess he would be rolling in his grave at all sorts of things the Greens have got up to, They certainly have started to focus much more on communist / social engineering rather than their bread and butter which is environmental concerns.
They have thrown principal out the window in favour of political greed.
What I cannot understand is how 7% still continue to support this bunch of interfering loonies.
March 26th, 2007 at 1:14 pm
I don’t think he would have approved of the over-cosy deal with Labour that has now turned the Green’s into Hard Labour, either.
March 26th, 2007 at 1:54 pm
“What I cannot understand is how 7% still continue to support this bunch of interfering loonies.”
My guess would be that sadly 7% of Kiwis are bat shit crazy.
March 26th, 2007 at 2:00 pm
There’s something about Parliament that takes people of principle and slowly strips them of that integrity till they’re willing to sell our birthright for a mess of pottage.
That Rod Donald stuck to his principles consistently shows we were fortunate to have him represent us, regardless of whether we agreed with his politics.
I’ve seen so many other people I initially admired as principled – yes, even Winston – give it all away for whatever baubles took their fancy; or because it was easier to ‘go along and get along’.
Then again, we shouldn’t be too quick to dive on a genuine change of mind screaming “U turn!” and “inconsistency”, thus forcing MPs to never resile from an opinion they may have uttered whilst not in full possession of the facts or at a time in thier lives when they saw things differently.
Sadly, the Greens are now finding that without the steady hand of Rod Donald they’re adrift, and the only thing they can cling to is some outmoded extreme socialist principles. Good on them for trying to stand for something but they need wise leadership to help them find out what that is.
They won’t get it from Jeanette Fitzsimons. I still recall being left speechless (along with Pete Hodgson) during a debate on energy infrastructure when her contribution was a speech on the innermost workings of her composting toilet.
March 26th, 2007 at 2:09 pm
There is nothing truely urgent about the Bradford bill just an urgent desire to get it out of the public mind and off the front pages. So it fails on all the Donald tests. Nice to see Labour and the Greens in harness on an unpopular issue.
March 26th, 2007 at 2:15 pm
tim,
The urgency push is a piece of brilliance by Cullen that must have had HC in a froth.
The S59 bill was just slipping out of the headlines, few talkback hosts were still mentioning it, energy was waning. Then suddenly, WHAM, back to the top of the headlines. Public outrage.
HC was getting lots of kudos whilst overseas, but the push for urgency completely stole that thunder, and it looks as if they are going to struggle to get the urgency approved.
Own goal does not even come close.
March 26th, 2007 at 3:22 pm
Labour and the Greens are bloody scumbags and continue to treat the masses as if we’re lucky to eat a crumb from a cake.
The sooner the revolution comes the sooner they will be up against the wall.
March 26th, 2007 at 3:37 pm
Now see if you can get some equivalent quotes about the role of the select committee in the legislative process. It’s my view that in the smacking bill that Labour and Green MPs were hell bent on passing this legislation through and totally ignored any submissions except ones that were pertinent to suggesting changes to the bill that complied with that view. In fact when I gave my submission, Sue Bradford saw me and walked out – leaving just the quorum.
March 26th, 2007 at 3:51 pm
I reckon Clark had this all sorted out before the last election. Her statement to radio Rhema that she did not support a ban on smacking was not ambiguous, nor has she made a considered u turn. It was a calculated lie to prevent it becoming an election issue so it could be shoved through mid term.
I am picking they have some big issues (sustainability? for example) to pull out of the hat in the hope we will forget her duplicity.
Cunning politics but devious politician.
March 26th, 2007 at 4:02 pm
Andrew Davies,
Agree 100%.
Clark deliberately set out to give the impression that she was against the bill. That is especially obvious given the intended audience- Radio Rhema is a privately funded Christian radio station. There was no way that her statements were intended to be taken in any other way than the obvious conclusion.
I’m fast reaching the conclusion that Labour have already given away the next election as unwinable, and that their current actions are simply the start of a program of fast tracked social, political and economic legislation. The plan being to implement as much of their ideology as is physically possible, in the knowldge that the damage, once done, will be almost impossible to undo.
March 26th, 2007 at 4:10 pm
Rex,
You were fucking gullible to fall for Winston in the first place.
The Greens are an unprincipled bunch of extreme liberal, middle-class socialists. Rod Donald was a complete opportunist, but to his credit he never thought MMP would be used by the Greens to wag the dog of this crummy Labour government.
March 26th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
Funny how Big Gerry put out a release on this not and hour after this article was posted.
What a coincidence.
March 26th, 2007 at 4:22 pm
cyfs social workers ,cops etc.…etc.…. will face disciplinary measures if they March or sign one of the two petitions circulating against section 59.I suppose that’s why Helengrad has employed so many more state servants, great control measure dear supreme leader. We don’t live in a democracy! Stalin didn’t have a conscience either! Any social engineering is always urgent business to the utopian people, but to hell with what the majority of normal thinking folk -eh .
Where else do utopian/ feminazi / amazons rule is the question that keeps banging around in my head?
Get a back bone New Zealand . Time to take the rubbish out .
March 26th, 2007 at 4:28 pm
“cyfs social workers ,cops etc.…etc.…. will face disciplinary measures if they March or sign one of the two petitions circulating against section 59.”
D4J, do you have any evidence of this? It’d be rather explosive if it is true and can be proved.
March 26th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
Evidence?
Come on Peter this is today’s hysterical thread, Helen Clark is a nazi, lesbian, fascist, er, liberal and the Labour government is going to murder us all in our beds before removing our screaming children to re-education camps!
You don’t ask for “evidence” in a thread like this, just stand back and wonder.
March 26th, 2007 at 4:43 pm
Sorry the above should obviously have said Helen KKKlark and the Liarbore government.
March 26th, 2007 at 4:50 pm
This will be the death of Greens and Labour.
If National can not win the next election on the back of the smacking bill alone…then we are all screwed.
People do not want it and both parties have gone back on their word. First the greens on this urgency issue and H1 being on record as saying she would not support it.
H1 is by far the best politician in the country; however it is goodnight nurse on the smacking fiasco.
Goodnight Kiwi.
March 26th, 2007 at 4:51 pm
Sonic,
The actions of this government worry me. I also suspect that, were the exact same actions being taken by a right wing government, then the two of us would be on the same side of the argument.
I challenged/requested information from d4j over his statement because, if there is any hint of truth, it would 1- be a totally unacceptable move towards totalitarianism (and I don’t think the Labour party is quite that far down the track yet), and 2- probable political suicide.
However, it may be that there have been some overenthusiastic beurocrats that have gone and put out some instructions, and d4j may have evidence (be it only annecdotal).
If that is the case, then it should be out in the open. If it was just an overenthusiastic piece of hyperbole, then it would be good for that to be in the open too.
March 26th, 2007 at 5:03 pm
Bob McCoskrie from Family First was heard on my wireless on the news stating that he has been contacted by two social workers claiming disciplinary measures will be imposed .
Could it be the chicken or the egg to blame ?
March 26th, 2007 at 5:20 pm
Thanks d4j,
Bob McCoskrie probably has evidence then. He certainly came up trumps with the tape of HC deceiving people.
At this stage it would probably be a safe assumption that it is some minor official going over the top.
However, this has the potential to be another egg on the face type incident.
Lets face it, there would be few people willing to stand up and defend any attempt by any employer to prevent an employee from showing support for an existing law!
It is something that you would hope would never stand up in an employment court.
March 26th, 2007 at 5:23 pm
Good to see Sonic has used the correct titles for the assorted scumbags that rule, please keep it up.
March 26th, 2007 at 5:56 pm
Insolent Prick opined: You were fucking gullible to fall for Winston in the first place.
I’d agree with you there but plead in mitigation M’Lud that it wasn’t just Winston in those days. He had some excellent people around him including Brian Donnelly, Bernard Downey, Ross Gluer and others (including, at one stage, me ;-P)
I was always aware of his weaknesses but they’d have been not nearly as evident if he’d chosen to continue to surround himself with strong willed, idealistic principled people instead of the empty headed sycophants hand-picked by Michael Laws in 1996 (and subsequently replaced, after magificently messing their own nests in a way only those taught by Laws could, by loyal and dullwitted time servers).
Rod Donald was a complete opportunist…
I don’t know how well you knew him IP. I only ever knew him as well as one does someone occasionally encountered at political debates and other bunfights. But he always had opinions that seemed well thought-through and which he adhered to on any issue I can recall. Extreme liberal, middle class and socialist he may well have been. But my definition of an opportunistic pollie is one who bends in the breeze of latest poll or focus group result. Rod never struck me as such a person.
March 26th, 2007 at 6:03 pm
REx:That Rod Donald stuck to his principles consistently shows we were fortunate to have him represent us, regardless of whether we agreed with his politics.
Rod admitted in 2001 that he was one of the people who vandalised Crop and Food (along with Nandor and various people from the Lincoln and Cnaterbury University environment clubs). He quite happily regarded himself above the law that time.
March 26th, 2007 at 6:28 pm
jimmy black said..
“..If National can not win the next election on the back of the smacking bill alone…then we are all screwed…”
can i suggest you prepare to assume the position jimmy..?
and insolent prick is..of course..talking absolute drivel about rod donald..
(but hey..!..what else is new..?..i.p = drivel..)
and the prick dosen’t even deserve a riposte..beyond this…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
March 26th, 2007 at 7:19 pm
Isnt “urgency” in the context you quote means pushing legislation through all its stages in one sitting.
And how long has Sue Bradfords bill been wending through the house ??. Since last year ?? And still has to come back in a couple of months time.
Most people see the usual tortuous progress of most legislation as a complete waste of time.
March 26th, 2007 at 7:51 pm
Peter S
“cyfs social workers ,cops etc.…etc.…. will face disciplinary measures if they March or sign one of the two petitions circulating against section 59.”
“D4J, do you have any evidence of this? It’d be rather explosive if it is true and can be proved.”
Peter
About 6 months ago there was a brief flurry in the news about a hui run by, I think, the Childrens’ Commission. All social workers present were told to support Bradford’s bill. When two expressed concern they were told informally they could lose their jobs if they did not tow the line. When Kiro was challenged with this she did not deny it but said it was unfortunate the social workers did not approach her.
I agree, this should be explosive but a lazy and compliant media and useless opposition means it does not get the oxygen it deserves.
Of course, in the caring and tolerant socialist paradise of Sonic’s dreams this could not possibly happen. People like Sonic are a big part of the problem.
Have you ever wondered why Barnadoes, Unicef, Plunket etc support this bill. Could it be that they will be in the frontline of dealing with child “abuse” issues; investigating, advocating, removing children and giving them alternative homes. This not only gives them greater power and more funding, it also gives them the ability to go after the families of people they do not like.
Disagreeing with them now seems dangerous enough. Try it in 10 years time and see what happens.
March 26th, 2007 at 8:15 pm
“Most people see the usual tortuous progress of most legislation as a complete waste of time.”
Rambler – got to disagree. Most people couldn’t tell you a thing about the passage of legislation. Maybe you’d have a majority who knew what a select committee did, but that’d be it.
March 26th, 2007 at 8:52 pm
Cullen’s no longer seeking urgency.
March 26th, 2007 at 8:58 pm
A victory for common sense
March 26th, 2007 at 9:03 pm
If they have not got the numbers for urgency they may not yet have the numbers to pass the Bill. Those poll readings are very very bad. And put that on the back of other bad polls and now the situation is looking very very bad for Labour and this Bill. The lame duck Government limps on to the next crisis.
March 26th, 2007 at 9:04 pm
>
Obviously, Labour hasn’t succeeded in getting either United Future or NZ First to support the urgency motion. With both caucuses divided over the passage of this bill, but weighted towards opposing it (UF 2 against, 1 for; NZF 5 against, 2 for) it was unlikely that urgency would be accorded.
However, more pivotal is the Research NZ poll published this evening, which shows 73% of respondents either “disagreed or strongly disagreed with the bill’s provisions”. Cullen’s taken the hint from the electorate; will Bradford be as perceptive?
March 26th, 2007 at 9:07 pm
So as soon as the opinion polls show people are against it they change their tact. So much for principals and the bill being a critical plank in addressing child abuse.
So what is the status of the bill – Um, I’ll just check the opinion poll…. oh today it’s just simmering, we might poll a different demographic tomorrow to help us consolidate our social values.
March 26th, 2007 at 9:25 pm
Some of the posts here are just hysterical, you guys need to take your medication.
I don’t agree with the bill but I’m pretty sure rational argument is always better than the rants we see here. I wish people like you would just keep quiet, you tar us sane rational opponents with your wacky brush.
Violent language in support of the right to hit children is not the way to do it. Keep sane and moderate and you might get your way.
Also, have a read of the cases in which the defense has been used and then formulate a new section that would stop child abusers successfully using the provision.
It has happened before and whatever you say about Labour we all need to stop it happening again.
March 26th, 2007 at 10:01 pm
…I don’t agree with the bill but I’m pretty sure rational argument is always better than the rants we see here. I wish people like you would just keep quiet, you tar us sane rational opponents with your wacky brush.
…Combine the IQ of any 6 posters here (including Soni et al), and it would be twice the sum total of the combined IQ of Labour MP’s with half the arrogance.
March 26th, 2007 at 10:59 pm
Amazed
“Also, have a read of the cases in which the defense has been used and then formulate a new section that would stop child abusers successfully using the provision.”
Have you not heard of the eminently sensible amendment proposed by National’s Chester Borrows?
March 26th, 2007 at 11:07 pm
I am not sure what your point in quoting me is.
The second quote (or is it your statement?) just is not true, why bother saying something that is demonstrably untrue? If it’s witty sure, but any school kid could do better so it doesn’t qualify for the defence of wittiness does it?
Also, if the original poster, if it was not you, wished to demonstrate their IQ, then perhaps they could not employ apostrophes where they are not required.
But the point is that the sort of rants here do little credit to the cause so what is their point? I sometime wonder if David is embarrassed by the rubbish in the replies to his blog. Surely he is, if his hated opponents adopted this sort of tone what would he say?
For as long as people rant and sling trivial childish insults they will be seen as trivial and childish.
March 26th, 2007 at 11:17 pm
Children who are beaten (at home) are seldom smacked in public. The threat of ‘You know what will happen we you get home’ is gonna work and if it not – It will next time because the beater will then take the child home to administer his/her punishment.
A smacking ban will be like prohibition for liguor. Smacking won’t stop, but the quality and volume administered will now be completely unknown. Good going poodle lap dog block voters.
Can’t quite recall who said it, but I agree the bill goes against human nature.
Beatings on the other hand… how about some real attempt to control that. And lets be real, briefing Police that they need to use their discretion with physical punishment of children is a jack-ass way to implement a policy. There will be no winners in a policy like this, WTF are the Greens and Labour playing at?
March 26th, 2007 at 11:28 pm
Yes I have seen Borrows’ amendment, and the discussion here has certainly seen a reasoned discussion of it hasn’t it?
As I say I oppose the Green’s bill, I just want those here who also oppose it to be more rational. Hysterical rants will achieve nothing, if you want to beat your opponent you have to outsmart and out-argue them.
If you want to seem like a thoughtless child beating thug capable only of parroting old and irrelevant insults then just follow the lead of those above.
I used to read David’s blog to see informed debate. His posts are often good but the ensuing discussion seldom is. It’s hardly worth reading, and certainly little of it was worth writing.
March 27th, 2007 at 3:20 am
Hysterical rants will achieve nothing, if you want to beat your opponent you have to outsmart and out-argue them.
Look I am sympathetic for where you are coming from, but in the end there really ISN’T a decent argument in favour of retaining a law that provides a defence for people who hit children.
Even John Key was reduced to trotting out gormless lines like “the law against murder hasn’t stopped murders” just today on RNZ’s Checkpoint. OK so the law doesn’t stop killings….so let’s repeal it then eh? He then went on to suggest a massive public education campaign educating the public that would have the aim of reducing family violence….much as a similar campaign has reduced drinking and driving. Fair enough….but driving drunk is still illegal last I looked.
This debate has been raging in the blogs for weeks and the opponents of the repeal have been repeatedly “out-smarted and out-argued” over and again. Flaunting their paranoia’s and trotting out lazy old insults is all they have left.
March 27th, 2007 at 8:27 am
AD. Chester Burrows ammendment still will allow lawyers to try and defend their clients under sec 59. In other words it just allows another grey area.
Is the repeal of S59 going to stop child abuse, not a chance, will it stop the defence of that abuse under S59, yes.
While all the rantings and ravings go on about parents rights being eroded who speaks for the receivers of that abuse. ertainly not moost of this blog.
March 27th, 2007 at 9:05 am
John,
This person speaks for the receivers of abuse. As stated in the article, she has prosecuted cases, and never lost one to an S59 defense.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/feature/story.cfm?c_id=1501165&objectid=10430966
March 28th, 2007 at 12:49 am
“Have you ever wondered why Barnadoes, Unicef, Plunket etc support this bill. ”
Most community sector agencies are left wing, that’s why. There are a lot of left wing churches involved in community agency provision too.
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