No, Vogel was a non-practising, secular Jew.

We dont have a perfect match to cover the time periods because we start back 4000 years with Abraham, move forward 1000 years to the Ancient Greeks who give us so much of what we are, on to Christ and the Greeks/Romans and then into Europe proper.

I was going to suggest “Western Heritage”, but that’s hardly fair to the roots of our civilization.. in Judaism, and I’m not sure I’d like to explain to my grandchildren that their heritage is Judeo-Greek-Romano-Christian-European.. well, not as a catch phrase, so maybe “Western Civilization” heritage. After all, Judaism, the Classical Periods and Christianity have much more appeal in the West than the east.

JC

1. There is only one State, and Helen is its Prophet

2. The people shall respect no power or authority other than the edicts of Helen and her Great Bureaucracy

3. The people shall hold no “fact”, “truth claim” or “belief” to be propositionally true, ultimately true, verifiable, or legitimate — other than the statements in this document

4. The people shall hold no values, mores, or cultural standards higher than the Eternal Secular Principles of “tolerance, diversity, and inclusion”.

5. Any person who contravenes (3) by publishing any kind of “fact, truth claim, or belief” shall be deemed a bigoted violator of (4); subject to public vilification; proclaimed a public nuisance; and investigated by the People’s Police Force

6. The people shall respect the values of the Green Party and the illustrious Susan Bradford, whose research has found that 80% of New Zealanders are criminally violent to children

7. In light of (6), and some disturbing references to a primitive Judaic belief system in the history books, an extensive re-education programme shall be implemented. All references to “Israel”, “the Holocaust”, “Jesus Christ”, “Christianity” shall be expunged.

8. You shall not covet your neighbour’s property, unless you happen to work for the IRD.

9. You _shall_ covet your neighbour’s ass. Especially if thy name is David Benson-Pope

10. Thou shalt enlarge the power and glory of the Prophet Helen, her almighty State, and its many-splendoured Departments, at every PR opportunity

Besides, the Race Relations Commissioner stated that his declaration of religious diversity does not deny the importance of Christianity within our nation’s history, so what is the issue here? Doesn’t this address your concern?

Perhaps one who had actually spent sometime living outside of NZ. Actually, I think my response was perhaps a little intemperate. IMHO, it was quite a surprisingly good post from Rag, I dunno why he couldn’t have just left it without the reference to Redbaiter.

What NZer would call someone a galah?

Rag, I don’t need a commie galah like you telling other people what I believe. Speak for yourself you cheap loser.

Our finite, created minds cannot encompass, nor imagine directly the nature of the Uncreated. If for a tiny moment we were directly exposed to the actual Being that we call God, all in the Heavens and all in the Earth would be instantly consumed and pass away as nothing.

In order that this world can exist, and that we might function independently within it, the essential logical requirement is that God sets aside the direct exercise of power in this realm.

Those of us who live in a world of wealth, power and confidence in our own merits, usually make the mistake of looking for God in all the wrong places. We look for incontrovertible evidence of His power, His Glory and Light….and when we find it not, we often conclude that like the teapot, God cannot be.

We are given, within the limits of time and space, the whole of this Universe to have dominion over…except that God reserves for His throne just one place within it….the seat of the human heart. And it is among the poorest, the weakest, the least famous, that His Light can be seen if you have the courage, sincerity and humility to look.

I love you all. (Even Mr Redbaiter who has the fire of his passion and a wonderous vision of a new race of men so virtuous they have no need of regulation and governments to rule them.)

Nichlemn nails it nicely.

THE CHRISTIAN FOUNDERS OF THIS NATION FOUNDED A SECULAR ONE.

They did this deliberatley.

Only a secular society gurantees the equality of all people.

The Maori were generally not Christian AND the only way all New Zealanders could be equal political citizens was in a secular society.

So given the Treaty of Waitangi was the actual founding doucment …

Well as a Christian I’m sure you will forgive us.

Nichlemn correctly points out this is a bogus argument.

Its bogus for another reason. Religion is a personal choice and there is no reason to impose it in any way from the top down. Either you have freedom of religion or you don’t, and demanding Parliamentarians swear an oath on one particular text, in spite of the view of the parliamentarian or her constituency or about half the population, is not helpful.

I haven’t read the thread, but I assume the usual arguments about religion being the source of moral virtue have been brought out. Religion isn’t the source of moral virtue. It can’t be, because a) Christians plainly pick and choose which virtues they take from the bible (and thankfully so) i.e. there is a moral filter that overrides parts of their faith, and b) athiests are perfectly capable of believing in “do unto others”. Jesus wasn’t the first to express this universal ideal.