Parliament’s Daily Prayer
The Speaker is surveying MPs on whether the daily parliamentary prayer should be scrapped and/or revised.
I’m not actually a proponent of abolition. I don’t think having a parliamentary prayer undermines NZ being a secular state any more than having God in the National Anthem does. I suspect those MPs who are not believers are not overly worried that they have to amuse themselves for 20 seconds every day as the prayer is said.
However the wording of the prayer should be changed, in my opinion. It currently is:
Almighty God, humbly acknowledging our need for Thy guidance in all things, and laying aside all private and personal interests, we beseech Thee to grant that we may conduct the affairs this House and of our country to the glory of Thy holy name, the maintenance of true religion and justice, the honour of the Queen, and the public welfare, peace and tranquillity of New Zealand, through Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen.
Changes I would make, in order are:
(1) Removing specific reference to Jesus Christ so it is not just a Christian prayer but a prayer all religious MPs can partake in.
(2) I doubt the Queen regards what happens in Parliament most days as an honour to her, so I’d delete “the honour of the Queen”
(3) Delete reference to needing God’s guidance in all things. I am sure God feels no need to guide people on whether to go to the toilet or not.
(4) Also delete the reference to maintenance of true religion, as that in fact is not the job of Parliament.
So my suggested prayer might be:
Almighty God, guide us in our duties, so that we lay aside all private and personal interests, conduct the affairs of this House and of our country to the benefit of all New Zealanders, ensure the maintenance of justice, and secure the public welfare, peace and tranquillity of New Zealand Amen.
Feel free to submit in comments your own versions of an appropriate prayer suitable for MPs of all religions.
May 31st, 2007 at 2:48 pm
I would transform it into a reminder that MPs are there to serve the people of NZ and removing all the religion crap. Hence:
As representatives of the people of New Zealand, we lay aside all private and personal interests, and conduct the affairs of this House and of our country to the benefit of all New Zealanders, ensuring the maintenance of justice, and secure the public welfare, peace and tranquillity of New Zealand.
May 31st, 2007 at 4:01 pm
For me, the most interesting part of the Speaker’s letter to MPs was, that after five years as Speaker of the House of Representatives, Margaret Wilson is yet to grasp the difference between a sitting of Parliament and a session of Parliament.
May 31st, 2007 at 5:42 pm
I agree with you to a greater exent but disagree with point #2. As a republican I understand you are keen to remove the Queen from NZ government, but she’s not gone yet. The police and armed forces take their oaths to the Queen, I would like MP’s to remember on who’s authority they act and that the GG is the final arbitrator regardless of how ceremonial they seem to be now.
Rather than work out a paraphase of my own, I quite like your one, but modified as so:
Almighty God, guide us in our duties, as we lay aside all private and personal interests, we conduct the affairs of this House and of our country, in honour of our Queen, to the benefit of all New Zealanders, ensure the maintenance of justice, and secure the public welfare, peace and tranquillity of New Zealand, Amen.
May 31st, 2007 at 5:49 pm
Here’s a good one that they can use : P
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%206&version=31
May 31st, 2007 at 10:07 pm
I 100% support this from Isaac Freeman (posting at NRT):
“We have an alternative tradition in some public gatherings that provides a similarly prayerful and reflective attitude without creating complications: shared silence. I’m not aware of any faith that forbids people to pray silently, and those who don’t believe in a higher power can still use the time to contemplate why they’re there. Shared silence also carries an implicit message of collective responsibility: any one person could ruin it, so when it happens it’s at least one thing the group is capable of working together on.
I would like to see Parliament begin with a few minutes of silence.”
I think he makes a great suggestion.
May 31st, 2007 at 10:22 pm
David, your suggestion, is a prayer I could pray as a christian if I were in parliament. It is a simple but direct and comprehensive prayer.
To other christians: think of the debate the other way around – if there was no prayer to open parliament each day, would you be happy with them implementing this prayer?
I would be very happy for our MPs to start each day’s debate this way.
May 31st, 2007 at 10:29 pm
Leave it alone please. This is yet another vanity project for Margaret Wilson.
May 31st, 2007 at 10:31 pm
DPF,
Not bad.
The important thing is not whether there is a higher being that one is accountable to, but for Parliamentarians to act as if there was one.
JC
May 31st, 2007 at 10:38 pm
Greg’s one is OK for MP’s as they take up (an option to swear a non religious oath of service) their place in parliament.
But the issue here is whether a prayer should continue and a prayer involves the obvious, the God word.
The first issue of change – is leaving out the end salutation “our Lord Jesus Christ), so that it is nuetral between faiths.
I support this.
However I would allow members of the House time to say this for themselves, if they feel so inclined (and others to say something they would prefer, if they feel so inclined)
The speaker saying amen after they have finished.
The next issue is the Queen
While a Crown republican regarding the people as sovereign, I agree that while the status quo continues the reference to the Queen should continue.
The next issue is the secondary reference to God within the prayer and the mention of “true religion”.
I favour replacing the word religion with values.
So propose
Almighty God, humbly acknowledging our need for Thy guidance in all things, and laying aside all private and personal interests, we beseech Thee to grant that we may conduct the affairs this House and of our country to the glory of Thy holy name, the maintenance of true values and justice, the honour of the Queen, and the public welfare, peace and tranquillity of New Zealand.
While it does not reflect the attitude of deists, agnostics and atheists, it does reflect the values of those to whom a prayer would be important. Yet it is modernised to reflect the values of a multi-faith New Zealand.
As I said I favour MP’s so inclined being able to say “through Jesus Christ our Lord” (or something they would prefer) before the speaker says amen.
May 31st, 2007 at 11:03 pm
Tim Barclay’s got it dead to rights..
May 31st, 2007 at 11:43 pm
I’d can it entirely, and here’s the reason why – however impolitic it is to admit, I’ve heard of two MPs who will (privately) admit they are atheists and have been their entire lives.
I take my religion, and prayer, enormously seriously. Seriously enough that I would never want to even implicitly have an MP making a insincere and public profession of religious sentiment – no matter how “neutral” it is. Those MPs who feel the need to pray before a sitting, there are dozens of private rooms in the Parliamentary complex and well as numerous houses of worship within easy walking distance of Parliament during the lunch break. Heck, why not just close your office door, take the phone off the hook, and tell your secretary you’re not to be disturbed for five minutes?
June 1st, 2007 at 6:46 am
What else would you expect from the communist creeps that soil our country, as their mentor Stalin said, “We have deposed the czars of the earth and we shall now dethrone the Lord of Heaven .”
God help New Zealand – please !
June 1st, 2007 at 7:50 am
I agree with Craig.
I take my atheism very seriously, and I heartily dislike being forced to participate in other people’s religious ceremonies. I try to avoid them, and I certainly don’t want to pretend to be giving the ceremonies any respect (NB not to be confused with tolerating other people’s relgious ceremonies, providing they don’t involve harm to non-consenting children and adults – you want to kneel / stand / recite prayers / whatever – that’s your business, and I will plead the Voltaire defence on your behalf).
But that’s why I like the versions and practices suggested by Greg, and Isaac (over at NRT). I’m all for reminding our elected MPs that they are involved in a serious endeavour before they being thgeir deliberations each day, and if some of them want to pray to a Christian god, in silence – fine.
I’m not keen about SPC’s idea of allowing individual MPs to add ‘through Jesus Christ our Lord’ before the speaker says amen. There’s can be a lot of social pressure to conform. And can you imagine the Tamaki cohorts sitting in the gallery each day, checking just who is and who isn’t saying the words?
June 1st, 2007 at 9:03 am
james cairney -
great suggestion. a minute’s silence at the start of every session. a chance for reflection with an appeal to an invisible giant in the sky
June 1st, 2007 at 9:22 am
I am in favour of MP’s recognising (at least the perception) they are accountable to some higher authority than themselves whether that be God or the People I really don’t care.
Perhaps an oath they should swear each day. (And that is not the oath that Maharey swore in the house recently either.)
June 1st, 2007 at 9:37 am
I think we should remove the reference to God full stop. I have no issue if religious mp’s want to say a prayer before parliament, and would be happy for time to be set aside for this. But why should non-religious mp’s be forced to participate?
June 1st, 2007 at 9:56 am
“an appeal to an invisible giant in the sky”
Man, you commies are just so facile…!!
June 1st, 2007 at 10:58 am
Greg said all that needs to be said, and far better than DPF’s ‘presumptious theist’ prayer.
June 1st, 2007 at 1:14 pm
The aim is to remove any particular religion from the opening of Parliament. That should also accommodate ‘no religion’, which precludes any prayer. The aim should also be to remove hypocrisy from Parliamentary behaviour – so any ‘prayer’ for peace and tranquility and attributes incompatible with the Westminster system should be abandoned and replaced with a simple statement like : “I declare Parliament in session, this ‘whatever’ day of ‘whatever’ . . .
June 1st, 2007 at 1:28 pm
“an appeal to an invisible giant in the sky”
Man, you commies are just so facile…!!
What about us Capitalists who also don’t believe in this “giant in the sky for the simple minded” bullshit?
Remove all religious references full stop….its childish,offensive,no longer representative of those in parliament and panders to the absurd and irrational…
June 1st, 2007 at 2:19 pm
Is that a fact James boy ?
June 1st, 2007 at 2:20 pm
Central to Christ teachings was avoidance of jealousy, conceit, pride, ill-manners, self-centredness, irritability, and keeping a score of wrongs [see 1 Corinthians 13 4-7].
The behaviour of New Zealand politicians is usually an absolute fucking mockery of Christian principles. Drop the prayer altogether.
June 1st, 2007 at 2:24 pm
Sofia – name me one politician with integrity and good principles and I’ll say me dad was a nun !
June 1st, 2007 at 2:33 pm
dad4justice – read what I wrote again – that was the point: politicians lack integrity and the Christian attributes mentioned, and act like bloody morons often less than five minutes after Wilson reads the prayer. Doing away with it will make their behaviour fractionally more honest!
June 1st, 2007 at 2:38 pm
Don’t worry Sofia , I know what you mean mate and I agree with you – get the prayer out of the beehive – as if the place was wired to a lie detector the explosion would be massive . I should have addressed my question to James thingy , please James can you name one pollie with integrity and good principles ?
June 1st, 2007 at 2:47 pm
If they get rid of the prayer then they can also get rid of the ban on opening shops at Easter and Christmas Day because both of these are based on religion.
June 1st, 2007 at 2:56 pm
Yes Paul K – no more Easter or Christmas holidays , dam what now smellon ?
June 1st, 2007 at 3:25 pm
“What about us Capitalists who also don’t believe in this “giant in the sky for the simple minded” bullshit?”
You’re not a fucken capitalist James, you’re a preaching queer trying to use the Libertarian Party as a means to encourage acceptance of homosexuality as normal. (You could prove me wrong by telling me how many shares you have.)
The point is the only dumbfucks who think of God as some kind of “giant in the sky” are superficial little narcissistic dimbulbs like you.
June 1st, 2007 at 4:34 pm
James -
On most issues, you and cheeky ol’ RB and D4J are on the same side – look at the way they’re addressing you now, look at how crude their powers of argument are, witness this weird anger they have inside themselves. Does that give you any confidence that their side is the one to be on?
June 1st, 2007 at 4:42 pm
Sam Dixon – please stop french kissing that skunk.
June 1st, 2007 at 4:43 pm
This is simply one more item on the agenda of Marxist Social Engineering. If it is the policy of the Marxist Liabour Party then they should stitch it into their election manifesto and change it after the next election, otherwise they should change it by referendum.. The prayer is as much part of Parliamentary ceremony as ‘the Black Rod’ Sergeant at Arms,the saying of grace before ceremonial dinners, bewigged Judges and other paraphenalia. After all we are a Christian Country, with a proud Christian tradition.
June 1st, 2007 at 4:54 pm
On most issues, you and cheeky ol’ RB and D4J are on the same side -
I can’t speak for D4J Sam, but I’ll tell you that James is definitely not on my side. He thinks I’m as bad as you. ‘Right or left, there’s no difference’ is what he says.
..leaving aside the utter irrationality of such a position, I find this extremely insulting.
Not only that, he constantly attacks Conservatism. In terms of strategy Sam, that makes him my enemy. The Libertarians get too easy a ride from the right. I see where Mr. Farrar lists them as “right wing” on his blog role. They actively deny being right wing. That’s fine with me, just so long as I know who my enemies are. Apparently its the left AND the Libertarians. So bring it on I say. They want to make their pissant declarations, then good for them. They can wear it. They’re adults aren’t they?
June 1st, 2007 at 5:47 pm
I am a proud Conservative – who don’t like no tricky business – but likes Speights and I think Harry Presi no.33 give em hell Truman had it spot on –
” I don’t have to give them hell;I just tell the TRUTH and it sounds like HELL .”
June 1st, 2007 at 6:05 pm
James -
“On most issues, you and cheeky ol’ RB and D4J are on the same side – look at the way they’re addressing you now, look at how crude their powers of argument are, witness this weird anger they have inside themselves. Does that give you any confidence that their side is the one to be on?”
Sam..I’m not… as Redbaiter confirms…Im a Libertarian meaning I believe in freedom in ALL areas of human life…..not chop and change principles like both Lefty s and Rightys practice.
Funnily enough Redbaiter is almost %90 a Libertarian most of the time going by his posts.Its the mouth foaming authoritarian conservative other %10 posts that let him down in consistency.
“I can’t speak for D4J Sam, but I’ll tell you that James is definitely not on my side. He thinks I’m as bad as you. ‘Right or left, there’s no difference’ is what he says.”
Thats my position exactly…both Left and Right are authoritarian and want to dictate and control the lives of others…just with a focus of different areas.The Left tend towards wanting to regulate economic freedom while the Right tend towards wanting to regulate person and social freedoms….a plague on both their Socialist houses.
..leaving aside the utter irrationality of such a position, I find this extremely insulting.”
Too bad Red….look at the premises you hold…its you who is inconsistent not me….I happen to think you are one of the best Libertarian posters I have read….when you stick to economics.
Not only that, he constantly attacks Conservatism. In terms of strategy Sam, that makes him my enemy.”
I attack Conservatism because its a threat to Liberty as is leftwing Socialsim…at heart theres really no major difference.
“The Libertarians get too easy a ride from the right. I see where Mr. Farrar lists them as “right wing” on his blog role. They actively deny being right wing. That’s fine with me, just so long as I know who my enemies are.”
Actuually its the Right who have being too easier a ride from us.
” Apparently its the left AND the Libertarians. So bring it on I say. They want to make their pissant declarations, then good for them. They can wear it. They’re adults aren’t they?”
Sorry if you are spoiling for a fight Red but its wasted energy.If you weren’t so wrapped up in irrational hatred of certain others and advocated using state force to suppress them you would be a damm fine addiction to Libertarians.
June 1st, 2007 at 6:13 pm
Well dribbled James H1 , H2 , K1 , K2 or Mr Ed ?
June 1st, 2007 at 7:04 pm
James, after a week has gone by, come back and read what you just wrote above and see how many irrationalities you can identify.
June 1st, 2007 at 8:28 pm
I love you too RB ….you old Libertarian you!
”
J”ames, after a week has gone by, come back and read what you just wrote above and see how many irrationalities you can identify.”
Do you mean mine or yours….?
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