It’s going to become very clear, certainly by election time, how little United have achieved. Labour has robbed them blind, in the sense of having stolen most of their policy triumphs.

For example Dunne got his tax cut but then Cullen turns around and slaps compulsory Kiwisaver contributions onto employers so wiping out any net benefit from the tax cut.

I believe that many Christians abandoned the party as they reasoned, correctly in my view, that even if Dunne has only got a C&S agreement, it has enabled Labour to use the resources of government to organise the various measures that have been so antithetic to Christians, even if United opposed most of them.

Around this neck of the woods many hoped that United would have negotiated with National after the 2005 election, but Dunne had already stated beforehand he would start with the party that got the most votes, so it was a foregone conclusion.

As far as Destiny goes, they are in the rather unique position of having managed to alienate almost every other church in the Christian community due to their grandiose pronouncements and airs. I would expect their support to decline since there are alternatives.

What David has failed to note is that National has moved very definitely towards the centre, leaving a group of voters out on the right. Once upon a time, Act would have picked these people up, but they are a rudderless ship these days.

That is what Helen Clark’s government is moving us towards, but due to their deceitfulness they will never admit as such.

The National Party used to stand in opposition to this worldview, and I expect that some Christian MPs such as Copeland think that way as well.

I support any party which moves us in the opposite direction from socialism in getting the nanny State out of our lives. It may take them a long time to do this.

“Contrast that with the Socialists who use legislation backed by a police force and the threat of imprisonment to force everyone to follow their agenda.”

It’s called representative democracy actually, and all the parties involved do it equally, even the christian ones. That was my point, which you seem to have missed. Are you genuinely saying that you object to “socialists” having won an election, carrying out a legislative programme? Or are you saying that you think you should be somehow exempt from laws legally passed by socialists?

Or are you saying that all the non-socialist parties don’t have any reason to want to win an election. They have no plans to do anything at all if they become government?

Because if they do, in fact, have a reason to want to be the government beyond the fact that they think it would look nice on their CV, then they will… “use legislation backed by a police force and the threat of imprisonment to force everyone to follow their agenda.”

Do you not think Christian politicians will do this?

A liberal Catholic is an oxymoron. Or is it?

A Catholic can be a liberal just as anyone from any other church can be.

Catholicism is almost unique in designating their members as lifelong, thus people who do not attend a church and have not for many years can still be identified as Catholic and will still be able to go to a Catholic church and receive the rites at any time they choose.

The biggest problem that the Catholic Church has is widespread disregard of the official teachings by individual members who pick and choose what applies to them, yet as long as you still follow the right rituals you are still a member and that is how some Catholics are identified as liberal, even when the official line from their church has remained mostly the same for centuries.

Quite incorrect. Most Christians I know are centre-right politically, because they know that socialism is anti-Christian, anti-freedom. Socialism removes the free choice that we have to practice our faith, and replaces it with Marxist ideology.

DPF, you make some very good points. No doubt the odds are against Copeland’s new party making it into Parliament. However, I think there are other factors. Would you be prepared to offer me 100 to 1 odds on say $100 bet? That is my $100 against your $10,000.

A lot of otherwise Christian voters voted National in 2005 to get Labour out – National courted that vote. If National supported same sex marriage, and was generally socially liberal, I don’t doubt that eventually there would be an explicitly Christian political party with a broad base that could approach 5%. 1996′s Christian Coalition came close and probably failed partly because of the wasted vote perception – if that barrier is past, a Christian party could be elected.

Thank god it is highly unlikely.

Maybe you should tell John Key he is on a losing streak because National lost in 2005.

oh and I’m glad about the angst
Cheers BTA

However, I don’t suffer any angst.

So sleep in to your heart’s content and enjoy your day of rest – that’s what it was made for!

The founder of Christianity, Christ himself was in fact rounded up and crucified in an attempt to stamp it out. The only trouble for those who thought this would work was that he conquered the grave.

Millions of Christians through the centuries have been rounded up and flogged, stonned, imprisoned, tortured and executed for their faith.

The good news is that Christianity actually flourishes in times of persecution.

Jesus taught his followes to count it all honour to be persecuted. He himself gave his life as a ransom for many and while being crucified he interceded on behalf of his executioners, praying “father, forgive them, for they know not what they do”. The apostles suffered severe floggings, imprisonments, stonings and beheadings on account of their faith.

Even today, 200,000 Christians per year around the globe are killed on account of their faith in hostile nations.

Contrast that with the Socialists who use legislation backed by a police force and the threat of imprisonment to force everyone to follow their agenda.

In regard to the abortions and the like- again Jesus taught “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone”.

Contrast that with the Socialists who use the taxation legislation backed with the threat of imprisonment for non-compliance, to force all taxpayers to subsidise 16,000 plus abortions per year.