Where did the $4b go?
The NZ Herald reports on how the Minister of Health struggled to say what improvements in health we have had for the extra $4 billion a year he spends in the portfolio.
Hodgson did try and claim credit for decreasing infant mortality and increasing life expectancy, but these are trends which have been in place for over 20 years, and If I recall correctly, the rates of decrease and increase have actually slowed down in the last few years.
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May 23rd, 2007 at 6:59 am
Yep. We had this conversation a little while ago. The one thing they won’t ever talk about now are the waiting lists, which have more than doubled under Labour.
I’m a bit surprised that that Sonic and co aren’t already leaping to Labours aid on this one. Even though Labour themselves can’t justify it I’m sure their apologists will see a silver lining somewhere.
I say again, 20Bil more a year, 24,000 new state servents, and we have nothing to show for it. They are the most incompetent government in living memory who have squandered the best economic conditions in a generation.
May 23rd, 2007 at 7:34 am
Hodgson, in effect, has accused Ryall of being in opposition to Labour – by ‘mining’ health statistics until he finds an attack point.
Pathetic.
I thought that was the whole point of being in oppostion, you oppose and use whatever you can. Labour certainly do the same. John Key is still a little hazy on that complex idea, but at least his caucus have it right.
May 23rd, 2007 at 7:36 am
And if the government gave a 1/4 of that to the private sector with performance targets we’d all be in a better position.
But, no you have to keep those blinkers on – private sector BAD.
May 23rd, 2007 at 7:43 am
I agree totally Bogusnews. This is the point that John Key will hammer home again and again over the next 16 months or so.
Despite unparalleled economic conditions, and a tax take of gargantuan proportions, they have not improved the lot of New Zealand’s citizenry one bit. They have simply blown it. This country is not one iota better off than it was in 1999, and our slide down the OECD rankings confirms it.
History will record Clark and Cullen as the duo that basked in the sunshine of a benign strategic environment, taxed everything that moved, involved itself in the minutae of family life, posted vast surpluses year after year, and still achieved bugger all.
May 23rd, 2007 at 8:05 am
mmm..!!..must be in the eye of the beholder..
i live-blogged that encounter..
and read it as ryall being on a hiding to nowhere with that one..
(he’s advocating ‘cuts in health’..y’say..?..)
and hodgson ‘seeing him off’..
and before you scream leftie/greenie bias/twist..
key got ‘performer of the day’..yesterday..
strange as it may seem to some..
i am actually attempting to ‘unspin’ politics..
to cut throught he crap..
on all sides..
carry on..!
phil(whoar.co.nz)
May 23rd, 2007 at 8:25 am
Not one bit better off!
Much much WORSE off!
look at – the tax take; the vast sums being paid to education and health; the even vaster sums thrown uselessly onto benefits; the increasing rate of people leaving NZ for Aussie, US, UK, anywhere
is there one thing in the country that is even the same as it was 10 years ago?
May 23rd, 2007 at 8:32 am
24000 extra public servants? If thats true it outrageous. No wonder we have inflation. Great isnt it, we all do our best to work hard, produce things and support our staff and families and its the bloody government who keeps stuffing it up for us. They are blowing the spending out with no increase in productivity.
The irony is, I bet in 20 years Cullens term will be studied as an example of failure. The teachers own work examined.
May 23rd, 2007 at 8:37 am
sinner said..
“..is there one thing in the country that is even the same as it was 10 years ago.?..”
yep..!..
the dreams/desires of you righties to sell/’privatise’ everything that moves..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
May 23rd, 2007 at 8:38 am
sinner said..
“..is there one thing in the country that is even the same as it was 10 years ago.?..”
yep..!..
the dreams/desires of you righties to sell/’privatise’ everything that moves..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
May 23rd, 2007 at 8:42 am
And if the $4b had not been spent?
The bulk of the money in Health (as in Education) goes on wages of which the administrative overhead is around the 4-5% mark according to last years numbers…so the bulk of this money has gone into higher pay for doctors and nurses.
At the same time the Nurses Association is highlighting critical nursing shortages that will soon be on us as the current generation of nurses begin to retire soon, and 80% of all new doctors registered here in NZ are overseas trained reflecting the difficulties we encounter trying to pay and retain the very best.
This $4b increase is primarily the result of the global shortage of trained medical professionals, and the fact that they have been able to command globally competitive salaries as a result. The “free market”…she’s a bitch ain’t she?
Oh and BTW….it is a grotesquely dishonest use of figures to talk about a $20b rise in tax revenue without mentioning the $55b rise in GDP over the same period. Tax revenue in NZ has remained a relatively constant proportion of GDP for decades, moving up and down within a smallish band as macro-economic and policy settings change.
May 23rd, 2007 at 8:47 am
So, would National sack 24,000+ people straight away? That’ll win Wellington’s voters over! And cap health spending? Privatise our health system? That will go down well with the powerful health sector unions – and since everyone loves nurses, it will be political suicide as well.
I would suggest a lot of the money in health has gone on pay rises for skilled orkers in an industry where the labour is international and mobile. We have to compete, so up goes the pay. Add to that the demographic fact of an aging population, and the massive decade loong running down of the health system under National, and you have your reasons right there.
Keep up the policy boys, it will guarantee another three years in the wilderness.
May 23rd, 2007 at 8:56 am
Toms ,how about telling us all what you would do to increase outputs in health our great socialist effwit? You know, to help the people you purport to represent.
Any ideas hmm or just bereft like Cullen and Clark.
May 23rd, 2007 at 8:58 am
24000 extra public servants? If thats true it outrageous.
Why? It’s time you got over the “Gliding On” mentality. The modern public service is nothing like the old times you are imagining. These days it is a high pressure environment with more than it’s share of dedicated (and in too many cases workaholic) people. Many are highly skilled professionals who are in high demand world-wide. Canberra for instance is constantly head-hunting our kiwi technocrats and policy-wonks.
Nor is is likely that all 24,000 of these people are “paper pushers”….the public service has a huge range of technical and professional occupations many of which are absolutely vital to the smooth functioning of our physical, commercial and legal infrastructures.
This lazy denigration of the public service (and mostly they are not in a position to defend themselves) is ignorant and cowardly.
May 23rd, 2007 at 9:05 am
Lets look at it rationally: where does the $4 billion extra spent now over 1999 go?
A huge wad of it is just on maintaining real per capita spending in a sector wit high inflation – I don’t have the figures for the lasst 7 years but over the next 4 years maintaining real spending per capita will cost $1.9 billion.
The second big increase is on primary healthcare, the establishmnst of PHOs, subsidised and free doctors visits and drugs… Focussing on priamry healthcare is about catching medical problems early before they are too serious (and often when they are cheaper to deal with), rather than being the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. The number of outpatient surgeries is also increasing sharply, which is part of the same mentality, tackling health problems when they are still in their early stages. As Hodgson said in a perfect wrold the number of elective surgeries would fall right away because health problems would be dealt with earlier.
And the third big area of increased health spending has been related to the aging population. we have far more elderly now, who tend to need more general healthcare – drugs, carers, checkups, and, sometimes surgeries that are more complaicted and expensive for an elderly person than a younger one because of their age – aand all that costs more money but does not necessarily result in a boost to your narrow figures.
Furthermore, while more probelms that were once dealt with through elective surgery are now delat with medically or with outpatient surgery because of advances in treatment options, the surgeries that are done are more advanced and more expensive but they also do a better job of dealing with more complex problems.
Basically, the problem with using a benchmark like number of elective surgeries or number of specialist consultations is that represents a very narrow wedge of what the health sector does – a wedge that is of decreasing importance, and one that itself represents activites that are changing.
Ryall either doesn’t know this and is an idiot or he does know it and is just making disingenious attacks for the sake of trying to make the Govt look bad (the tactics of the Hollow Men).
May 23rd, 2007 at 9:12 am
RedRag
So the extra +24,000 work very hard at doing what?
May 23rd, 2007 at 9:15 am
I hear all those nurses, surgeons and radiotherapists mostly just sit around the office shuffling paper and having tea-breaks all day.
May 23rd, 2007 at 9:16 am
Sam,
A great analysis..thanks. It drills in a lot deeper than my somewhat superficial focus on just wages and salaries.
May 23rd, 2007 at 9:18 am
“Ryall either doesn’t know this and is an idiot or he does know it and is just making disingenious attacks for the sake of trying to make the Govt look bad (the tactics of the Hollow Men).”
Who else believes the Opposition party should not oppose or attack the government?
I’m curious. What is this spirit of political arrogant superiority?
Who would parade such emotional bunkum as rational justification?
Who attacks with one hand while wiping their tears of hurt with the other and crying for mercy?
What is the title of an unopposed, uncritisized government?
May 23rd, 2007 at 9:20 am
Sam, No one has to try and make this government look bad…… They simply are.
And TomS, I can’t help but think that the government ensured those 24,000+ jobs were created simply to provide them with a large group of voters who can be threatened with dire consequences should the National Party ever be re elected.
The same could be said of WFF benificaries really. Just like turkeys and Christmas if you get my drift.
May 23rd, 2007 at 9:20 am
A number of folk implying that the money went on pay increases, and that we have to give pay increases otherwise everyone will go overseas. And then another group defending the 24,000 extra public servants. Any of those in health perchance? And if we had more people in health, wouldn’t we expect more operations to be completed? Typically pay rises are associated with increased productivity, not decreased.
May 23rd, 2007 at 9:25 am
Danyl
Don’t talk misdirecting shit…
The point was the EXTRA civil servants. You know.. telephone sanitizers and documentary makers.
But that was Hulun tactic’s at the last election, any less spending will mean starving orphans, Dickensian schools and the unemployed dying of hunger.
Mindless crap
May 23rd, 2007 at 9:29 am
> I hear all those nurses, surgeons and radiotherapists mostly just sit around the office shuffling paper and having tea-breaks all day.
Well, they have to take a break some time. Killing patients must be tiring.
May 23rd, 2007 at 9:29 am
> I hear all those nurses, surgeons and radiotherapists mostly just sit around the office shuffling paper and having tea-breaks all day.
Well, they have to take a break some time. Killing patients must be tiring.
May 23rd, 2007 at 9:33 am
Horace-
democracy should be a marketplace of ideas, responsible parties not in Government propose alternative policies that they believe would be better for the country and debate them in public fora so the best ideas can be selected by the people. We see the Greens, ACT, NZF, Maori, UF, Destiny etc all providing us open and detailed policy positions and philisophies of Govt and urging us to choose their’s.
Naitonal does not do that. They do not talk about their policies, or propose alternatives to Laobur. Why? Becuase their real objectives in Government are unpopular: privativse health education ACC SOEs Superannuation etc, cut social spending, reduce employees’ power relative to employers, cut taxes for the most well-off the most, reduce communities say over what projects go ahwead in their areas, put immdeiate business interests ahead of wider and more long term interests of the broader community… These policies will not win votes.
So, what does National do? it makes suprious attacks designed to make Ministers look under fire (under Brash and we can assume under Key that was the condition spokespeople had to meet to be in line for Cabinet). No alternative is persented and most of the time when you scratch the surface there is nothing to the attacks – as we see with Mr Ryall again and again and again.
The Opposition’s job is not to reflexively oppose, that is a dereliction of their duty. The Oppostion’s job is to expose Governmetn failings and provide a real alternative. National is not doing so and that is a tragedy for our democracy.
May 23rd, 2007 at 9:40 am
Sam
And Labour are soooooooooooooooo upfront and honest.
Yea.. right
National should tell Labour all it’s policies now (just like Labour does) well out before the next election so Labour can flip flop with gay abandon (alternative sexual orientation abandon) to counter any possible voter preference.
Whatever you are smoking Sam.. can I have some?
May 23rd, 2007 at 9:54 am
So what you’re saying lance, is that national doesn’t care about improving things for new zealanders. Its only concern is gaining power?
May 23rd, 2007 at 10:00 am
hisself
WTF?
I was talking about reality. Try it.. I recommend it.
May 23rd, 2007 at 10:02 am
hisself
WTF?
I was talking about reality. Try it.. I recommend it.
May 23rd, 2007 at 10:03 am
Phil,
If you’re trying to “…actually attempting to ‘unspin’ politics.. to cut through the crap..” then can you at least starting writing in sentences that actually make fuckin sense?
Christ, reading your posts is like reading a crayon story by a 5 year old. Stay between the lines please.
Kisses,
May 23rd, 2007 at 10:05 am
“am actually attempting to ‘unspin’ politics..”
You’ll never succeed, your perspective is too one sided and your political experience to narrow. You know nothing of how the right think. That’s why you’ll always lose. The right know how the left think, but the left will always be crippled by their failure to understand the perspective of the right.
May 23rd, 2007 at 10:08 am
Lance-
like I say most parties are open about what they generally want to do in Govt all the time – Greens want Eco-taxes replacing tradtional taxation, a carbon tax evoling into cap and trade, increased foreign aid, to name but a few exmaples from one party. ACT does similarly for its radical rightwing economic policies. Being open means people who disagree with these polices will nto support these parties but at least they stand for what they believe in.
But what does National stand for? What are its big ideas? Will it priovativse ACC, health, education etc, will it gut the RMA, break the unions etc? Those of us in the know, who watch closely and know the people in and behind the National party know it has a radical right-wing economic philosphy to do jsut those thing and cut social spending too but you will never hear National say it. Why? because as Brash’s advisors told him, talking openly about the policies that Naitnal would actually pursue would result in ACT level support..
So they take the coward’s way, the dishonest way, their goal is to get power and if they have to lie and hide and even give up some of their principles to get power, and once they have power they will gradually enact their unspoken agenda.
May 23rd, 2007 at 10:11 am
“Sam, A great analysis..thanks. It drills in a lot deeper than my somewhat superficial focus on just wages and salaries.”
Is anything more nauseating than observing socialist zealots congratulating each other on their propaganda efforts???
“Analysis”-????
What crap. Feeble excuses and weak obfuscation. Health is just one more indicator of the failure of socialism and socialist government. Like education and the justice system, just another rank example of NZ’s inward collapse at the hands of the commies.
May 23rd, 2007 at 10:12 am
“…the Greens, ACT, NZF, Maori, UF, Destiny etc all providing us open and detailed policy positions and philisophies of Govt and urging us to choose their’s…”
You’ve lost the objective plot here. None of those parties have detailed open policy stances. They all leave vast holes in their ideas, just like National. The Maori Party could be called the swiss cheese party – minus most of the cheese, leaving just the air in the holes! Visit their websites.
Then you go on to dictate how an opposition party must operate to be ineffective against the government’s political strategy.
That you support Labour is fine with me. Just don’t expect me to believe your ideology surounding government to be the one true interpretation of a democratic system.
May 23rd, 2007 at 10:20 am
Sam, so a leader that denies any intention to ban smacking in an interview prior to the 2005 election and then avidly supports its lapdog’s bill to do just that in 2007 isn’t being cowardly and dishonest?
In my opinion, your statement :
” their goal is to get power and if they have to lie and hide and even give up some of their principles to get power, and once they have power they will gradually enact their unspoken agenda.”
could be used to describe all politicians of every stripe and your implication that Labour party MPs aren’t thus afflicted displays a level of sychophancy that is quite breathtaking.
May 23rd, 2007 at 10:28 am
Its really flabbergasting that you jokers think its fine, even desirable, for a party that wants to be the Government to hide its agenda.
Consider this. Most of you are appearantly National supporters yet you routinely voice opinions that are at home in ACT’s stated policy framework far to the right of where National nominally sits (although who can say where is sits when its doens’t have policies on most major issues). This doesn’t strike you as odd because you know that if the National leadership had its way it would move rapidly towards the policies adovcated by ACT, its just not said out loud.
The public deserve to be able to make an informed choice, not a main opposition party that keeps its agenda secret and aries to use Clayton’s attacks to gain power by default.
At least ACT has the courage of its convictions.
May 23rd, 2007 at 10:30 am
Regarding our totally shambolic and dysfunctional health system I think Mr Alister James from CDHB best describes it; “ The system is not working. It’s not working for hospitals, I don’t think its working for staff, it’s not working for patients”.
I guess that explains the big red sign that says, “ sorry we are closed” that is shamefully displayed on the front doors at the Accident and Emergency Department at our local hospital more often than not.
These socialist oddballs are the perfect bureaucrat’s who mange to make no decisions and escape all responsibility. Would a real politician please stand up – yeah right – what a disgrace!
May 23rd, 2007 at 10:33 am
Grant. It may have taken two years for Helen Clark to do a policy about face, but it took John Key 2 weeks no wait maybe 2 days no wait maybe 2 hours no wait maybe 2 minutes. That issue is one rotten apple which cant be thrown at the government! I think the biggest shortcoming of many right wingers is that they passionately hate Clark yet refuse to acknowlege that Key is moulding himself in her image.
May 23rd, 2007 at 10:42 am
redbaiter said..
“.. the left will always be crippled by their failure to understand the perspective of the right…”
um..!..redbaiter..the ‘perspective’ of the right is blindingly obvious..
(even to blind freddy and his dog..)
it’s..sell/’privatise’ eveything that is (or isn’t) nailed down..
these sales to ‘friends’..preferably..
o
and if not’ friends’..i
nternational conglomerates are welcmed with open arms..
and barely stifled/little cries of delight..
this all underpinned/leavened..
..with a strong ethos of ‘i’m all right..!.’.so..’fuck everyone else..!..’
what’s not to understand..?
rightwing political ideas/philosophies pretty much revolve around/hang off..the wallet…
and extoll/praise a ‘tooth ‘n claw’/survival of the fittest mentality..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
May 23rd, 2007 at 10:49 am
National’s chief policy making branch these days is Colmar-Brunton – I wonder how much they get paid for it (I suspect they could probably make a good case for it in court). National simply swing in the breeze, never mind whether it’s good government or not.
Of course people want tax cuts, for example. I want more money, sure – that doesn’t mean it is good government – we’ll be the ones to suffer in future. However, the polls tell National that it’s their policy.
Look at Kiwisaver – public opinion unsure = John Key unsure. Remember the Art Royalties commission plan – Public unsure = Wagner unsure.
Happens every time. Screw the idea of good government…
May 23rd, 2007 at 10:50 am
It is amusing to watch the gyrations of lefties who use the increase in GDP to justify the increase in useless gummint expenditure when most of the increase in GDP is brought about by the appointment of tens of thousands of extra gummint drones who produce no useful increase in real goods or services. The lefties problem is that while they can fool political science graduated and freezing workers they can’t fool the OECD, the RBNZ the IMF, Mike Moore or the tens of thousands of productive NZers who have left the country or are about to.
We are actually seeing a socialist version of the 1987 crash. Then it was caused by dipshit entrepreneurs who couldn’t tell the difference between real good and services and paper money. Now it’s socialists who cant tell the difference between real good and services and gummint expenditure.
May 23rd, 2007 at 11:01 am
Its amusing to see that DPF’s groupies have given up any substantial debate of the thread’s issue – you know the extra health spending – now that a few of us have provided some of those annoying facts =
= most of the extra spending just treads water with high sector inflation and the growing cost of keeping good staff given worldwide overdemand for medical professionals, most of the rest goes on primary health and elder care not featured in the narrow measure of elective surgeries or specialsit consultations.
May 23rd, 2007 at 11:17 am
Dear Phul, I see your spastic writing has deteriorated to the point it is worthy of consideration under the mental health act 1992. Poor chap, obviously getting chucked out of the deluded utopian freakshow green party has greatly affected your emotional stability. Have a big bong and make an appointment with the appropriate medical practitioner, as you need urgent treatment.
New Zealand = record numbers on anti -depressants ? Great stuff Mr Pet Hogson.
Sam Dykson – “DPF’s groupies” are you still on the risperidone or has pharmac not approved your special authority application form ? Do keep up with the olanzapine as you clearly need it !
May 23rd, 2007 at 11:21 am
Of course he’s unsure;
What KiwiSaver is / means etc keeps changing.
As of 2 weeks ago even the main providers were issuing written advice that people should sign up for the minimum contribution for one year then go on payment holiday for the rest of their lives.
And showed people how to make that minimum contribution $10/wk regardless of income.
Cullen suddenly realised that he couldn’t just pull another student loan or 20 free hours BS plan out of his *ss and have it bought by everyone this time. So he had to change it to something that at least made financial sense – even if it is still an absolute botch of an implementation.
May 23rd, 2007 at 11:22 am
“The point was the EXTRA civil servants. You know.. telephone sanitizers and documentary makers.”
Which public agency hires either of these? (don’t say TVNZ).
But 24000 seems an awful lot (they’d probably be policy analysts
is it correct?
“You’ll never succeed, your perspective is too one sided and your political experience to narrow. You know nothing of how the right think. That’s why you’ll always lose. The right know how the left think, but the left will always be crippled by their failure to understand the perspective of the right.”
First belly laugh of the day! Ta.
May 23rd, 2007 at 11:26 am
D4J-
I’m not fimiliar with those drugs, which wikipedia informs me are antipsychotics, but you seem to know all about them.
May 23rd, 2007 at 11:34 am
Looks like we will have to spend some more then.
Ah well, we can just bump an extra tax on the $250k+ crowd.
May 23rd, 2007 at 11:52 am
Tui Billboard featuring Dad4Justice:
Nice Daddy? Yeah right!
May 23rd, 2007 at 12:00 pm
D4J’s smelly carbon footprint:
“Dear Phul, I see your spastic writing has deteriorated to the point it is worthy of consideration under the mental health act 1992.”
And:
“Have a big bong and make an appointment with the appropriate medical practitioner, as you need urgent treatment.”
The pot and the kettle make good bedfellows. Yes, the words “spastic writing” and “urgent treatment” are quite appropriate coming from D4J!
May 23rd, 2007 at 12:06 pm
Ah well, we can just bump an extra tax on the $250k+ crowd.
Posted by sonic | May 23, 2007 11:34 AM
Pretty soon Sonic, the only people ‘left’ in NZ in this income bracket will be public servants. The rest of us who create the real wealth in NZ have had a enough of the socialists living high-on-the-hog on our sweat and toil.
May 23rd, 2007 at 12:10 pm
“the ‘perspective’ of the right is blindingly obvious..”
Skip deluded infantile rubbish..
See what I mean Phil.. you’ll never ever ever get it. With you, it’ll always be spun from the dumbfuck mentally crippled leftist perspective. So shut the fuck up with your bullshit about “cutting thru the crap”.. you wouldn’t have a damn clue.
May 23rd, 2007 at 12:16 pm
Once again the lefties are fudging the issue, then diverting us to irrelevant topics (at least when we are discussing health.)
Admitedly, my view is pretty simple. It is this:
1. The health system is meant to make people well.
2. People who are well aren’t normally on the waiting list.
3. When a waiting list more than doubles in only six years it is not normally a sign of a country suddenly getting old or infirm.
4. When a waiting list doubles in 6 years AND it costs another 4Bil a year it indicates a massive problem in the new management.
With this in mind, I restate, under National in 1999 the health system cost us 6.7Bil a year and waiting list was 100,000. Under Labour prior to the last election Annette King admitted the waiting list had swollen to 180,000 (even this was a major understatement as it did not bring into account the booking system brought in by Labour which was essentially a “waiting list to get onto the waiting list”, their first and rather successful attempt to hide true numbers. This has been replaced by blatent throwing people off the list and hoping the numbers don’t surface) and it was costing us over 10Bil a year.
It staggers me how the lefties are still desperately trying to justify this appalling and incompetent government. It is extraordinary that figures like this go straight over the head of a leftie. But then perhaps not, the truth is never of great importance, that’s why you believe what you do.
May 23rd, 2007 at 12:19 pm
Paul, do you ever notice that vague threats to leave the country are getting a bit stale?
May 23rd, 2007 at 12:24 pm
Redbaiter – can you please take some of your own blinkered advice & shut the fuck up too? Is there bigger moron on this site? (OK, there IS some competition, but honestly).
With all due respect.
Llew.
May 23rd, 2007 at 12:40 pm
Bogusnews-
You’re the only one from the right offering any substance to this debate, the rest are just namecalling and threatening to take their toys and bugger off to Australia (always the answer when they’re losing the debate), and, unfortunately, you’re conclusions are simplistic where they are not just plain wrong.
Look at the outcome metrics – here’s the big one: how long are kiwis living? Life expectency in NZ is higher than the UK and US, fro example, while we spend less on health than they do. Every year, the female life expctency is increasing 3 months, the male one 4 months.
And what are your solutions anyway? Not enough medical care is being provided, you argue, and most people would agree it would be good to do more but you also seem to think there should be less funding of the health sector.. there’s no free lunches, you can’t get more for less in this game – you can either fund healthcare adequately and increase it where possible while ensuring there are adequate policy and administrative staff to direct resources efficently or you can do it on the cheap and watch kiwis’ health detriorate as a result.
May 23rd, 2007 at 12:45 pm
D4J-
Do you have anything of substance to say on any issue? Or is it just more sexist, racist and ignorant insults, and delusions that Clark or Simpson know who you are and care what you say on this blog?
May 23rd, 2007 at 12:45 pm
Poor Llew, another boring extreme leftist who deludes himself he’s a paragon of objectivity.
May 23rd, 2007 at 12:55 pm
Mr Sam Dykson – $4 billion gone West – while 1 in 3 children are reliant on state cheques . It is little wonder so many are dependant on the good ole prozac matey !!
May 23rd, 2007 at 1:02 pm
Interesting….
All kinds of posturing, name calling, misdirection, ‘wicked National’ blaa blaa but still no real justification for “where did the $4b go?”
Now that’s a debate!
May 23rd, 2007 at 1:04 pm
Paul, do you ever notice that vague threats to leave the country are getting a bit stale?
Posted by sonic | May 23, 2007 12:19 PM
Sonic. I would hardly call almost 1 million NZ’rs living overseas and, leaving at the rate of around 600/week are ‘vague’ statistics. Mind you, this is the kind of mentality I would expect from the ‘left’. This govt is berefit of any lateral thinking, direction, focus or, long term goals for the NZ economy to prosper. It juts wallows about like a yacht on a calm ocean.
May 23rd, 2007 at 1:15 pm
Thats right Paul, record low unemployment, strong growth and a high currency, what a nightmare!
May 23rd, 2007 at 1:31 pm
“Paul, do you ever notice that vague threats to leave the country are getting a bit stale?”
Posted by sonic
“..the rest are just namecalling and threatening to take their toys and bugger off to Australia…”
Posted by Sam Dixon
Both on this thread.
For the record guys please show me where anyone apart from yourselves has referred to buggering off to anywhere.
If you can’t then you are blowing smoke guys and deserve to be ignored as the promoters of rhetoric and wishful thinking.
Interesting the calls for National to have an immediate policy position on something that is to all intents and purposes quite radical and new with many possible unforseen consequences.
This actually indicates that Labour can’t even defend their budget on its own merits. If they could then they would not be needing to divert attention onto the National Party position.
Given Labour’s penchant for conducting policy auctions it is not surprising that the Nats don’t want to speak too soon. After all the budget legislation will be enacted. Any modifications under a new government can wait a bit to see the light of day.
I’m waiting Sam and sonic.
Oh BTW RedRag does your name indicate a “time of the month issue” for you or are you a Beehive staffer paid to lurk around DPF’s blog and throw maroon herrings into discussions?
May 23rd, 2007 at 1:32 pm
and sonic don’t forget that 250,000 NZ children live in welfare dependent homes – but thats cool eh Frank – as a welfare-dominated society always produces poor social results .
Oh thats right Frankstersonic it should be noted on this health thread that NZ had the fifth worst rate of child death by mal-treatment of 27 OECD countries .
Great stuff eh – proud to be a kiwi – yeah right – where did the $4b go again ?
May 23rd, 2007 at 1:41 pm
In a probably futile attempt to return the thread to it’s topic…
Screw the economics. Who can honestly put their hand up and say that our health system is delivering for NZ’ers?
We either spend too much on the wrong issues, or we aren’t spending enough!!
Regardless, the Minister should be able to answer the question as to what the extra 4 billion is being spent on. If he can’t he shouldn’t be minister.
Geez, who gets to spend that sort of money without being accountable for the outcome?
May 23rd, 2007 at 1:41 pm
“Poor Llew, another boring extreme leftist who deludes himself he’s a paragon of objectivity.”
Really? I must have missed that bit. Not being privy to your delusional thought processes probably.
meantime, how about learning to take it like you give it out? Better yet – see Lance’s comment above – try debating the topic. Grow up perhaps.
I have no idea where the $4b went, but I’d be interested to find out.
May 23rd, 2007 at 1:42 pm
“For the record guys please show me where anyone apart from yourselves has referred to buggering off to anywhere.”
How about;
“Pretty soon Sonic, the only people ‘left’ in NZ in this income bracket will be public servants. The rest of us who create the real wealth in NZ have had a enough of the socialists living high-on-the-hog on our sweat and toil.
Posted by Paul Marsden | May 23, 2007 12:06 PM”"
“Interesting the calls for National to have an immediate policy position on something”
Well a policy position on anything would be a start. Perhaps John should ask uncle Bill?
“or are you a Beehive staffer paid to lurk around DPF’s blog”
Not that again, do you guys actually think that everyone who disagrees with you is a paid agent?
Grow up eh?
May 23rd, 2007 at 1:42 pm
Sonic. Articluate your vision of NZ say 15-20 years from now, and tell me by what strategies we are going to get there? On its current tack, and if you like bananas, then all your wishes will come true.
May 23rd, 2007 at 1:46 pm
sonic, highest ever Sickness beneficary numbers,average growth, high interest rates, too high a currency,600 NZers and their skills leaving a week,low skill/wage economy,huge hospital waiting lists,children living in poverty, family violence, more on welfare ever, crime worse than USA.
Yeah, its a nightmare alright this socialists paradise of yours.
You really have no idea. Back under the bridge Troll.
May 23rd, 2007 at 1:50 pm
Paul, considering you support a party that cannot even make up it’s mind about Kiwisaver yet (ask us again when the polls come out) your question is rather ironic.
You seem to have missed two rather large steps towards long-term development taken this week, Kiwisaver and the tax break on R+D
May 23rd, 2007 at 1:53 pm
sonic
Perhaps Paul Marsden was referring to the growing industry of managing income tax rates at the 33c level.
You really shouldn’t jump quite so blindly to the conclusions that your idealogy tempts you into.
Craig,
With all the policy wonks emplyed by the beauracracy to provide, massamge, manage and mismanage data, there is no real excuse for Hodgson. It is getting a bit tiresome hearing him say “what I’d really like to see is ….” Frankly if he can’t make his vision happen in his own portfolio then the rest of us are buggered.
May 23rd, 2007 at 2:02 pm
I do admire your tenacity there David, but the meaning is pretty obvious (even Paul did not object)
I’m not sure what ideology is involved in undertanding the clear meaning in people’s words, could you enlighten us?
May 23rd, 2007 at 2:02 pm
“Frankly if he (Hodgson) can’t make his vision happen in his own portfolio then the rest of us are buggered.”
Previous to becoming an MP, he was a vet I think. Bit of a step up for him. From cutting the balls off tom cats to crippling the whole damn health system.
May 23rd, 2007 at 2:06 pm
Can the joker also posting as sonic stop please?
We’ve already explained where the extra $4 billion has gone, we’ve shown that health of kiwis is improving too, is it perfect, no, but this is the real world.
May 23rd, 2007 at 2:08 pm
“Bit of a step up for him”
Vet -> MP?
I’d disagree
May 23rd, 2007 at 2:16 pm
“I have no idea where the $4b went”
Here’s some news Llew- the sea, FYI, is a big wet thing. Something else just as simple and true. Socialists will eventually wreak destruction and waste where ever they go.
You have no idea? Read some of the contributions above. Ask a Doctor or a Nurse. Open your fucken eyes for chrissake.
One terribly obvious example- Apartheid. Separate wards for Maori. Separate nurses for Maori. All signage translated into Maori. What the fuck happens to those poor bloody Maoris who get sick in Australia Llew???
May 23rd, 2007 at 2:28 pm
These days it is a high pressure environment with more than it’s share of dedicated (and in too many cases workaholic) people.
True for a tiny minority of government workers, senior management in particular, and absolute rubbish for the rest. For most workers in govt its a 9-5 job Mon-Fri, and an hour for lunch. Which is what you’d expect: there are only limited consequences for doing an average job and doing it slowly because a) unlike in business, there is no competition to benchmark your performance against, and b) you don’t get to go out of business in government. You get 3% more pay next year regardless.
May 23rd, 2007 at 2:30 pm
I’ve noticed the Nurses have stopped striking under Labour – can I assume that this is because they’re getting paid more? Same for most fields of doctors. The strikes that have occured are specialists – those with skills in extremely high demand internationally. Paying them a rate to keep them in NZ isn’t free. I wonder if that can account for quite a lot of money. Oh wait, no, it’s all gone to these faceless bureaucrats and telephone washers. Clearly.
Also, if you’re actually interested in real stats instead of baseless criticm, why not have a look at the MOH. Pretty much all stats show an increase in operations, elective and acute. Stop listening to the sensationalist media and find out for yourselves if you’re so concerned – the world isn’t as dire as you assume.
Oh Sweet Mother – Baiter brought Aparthied into it, next we’ll have the $4bn Holocaust. Spare me the woolly jizz-lobbing and back yourself up for Christ’s sake man. If a Maori was to go to Australia, they’d probably know how to speak Australian. It’s pretty close to that which we speak here. I mean how would a Japanese in Auckland survive back in Japan – all the signs are in both languages here! What a nightmare.
May 23rd, 2007 at 2:31 pm
I meet socially from time to time with a ‘purchasing manager’ with one of the area health boards in NZ. I recall a conversation with him about 2-3 years ago where he informed me that to obtain consent to purchase even the smallest item, had to be signed off by something like 10 other individuals superior to him. Now, he was on something like $60,000pa at the time, so I assume his superiors are on a higher salary. I remember the conversation well as I was aghast at what he told me. So where does the $4Bil dissappear to?? Gee, I have no idea.
May 23rd, 2007 at 2:35 pm
“Here’s some news Llew- the sea, FYI, is a big wet thing.”
clap clap. Mr Science I presume?
“You have no idea? Read some of the contributions above.”
Which ones? Yours have no clue at all.
“What the fuck happens to those poor bloody Maoris who get sick in Australia Llew???”
er… slow down, slow down, you’ve reverted to irrelevant gibberish again.
Grow up, I said.
May 23rd, 2007 at 2:37 pm
Hodgson was a vet, Brownlee was a wordwork teacher.. what’s your point?
May 23rd, 2007 at 2:42 pm
“True for a tiny minority of government workers, senior management in particular, and absolute rubbish for the rest. For most workers in govt its a 9-5 job Mon-Fri, and an hour for lunch. Which is what you’d expect: there are only limited consequences for doing an average job and doing it slowly because a) unlike in business, there is no competition to benchmark your performance against, and b) you don’t get to go out of business in government. You get 3% more pay next year regardless.”
Pretty much uninformed garbage Ben, where’d you get this from, talkback?
May 23rd, 2007 at 2:44 pm
Sam,
Showing that the life expectancy of Kiwis is increasing is fine, but in context of the last 9 years of ‘healthcare’ what guarantee is there that it will not begin to fall again?
After spending 9 months of last year in and out of Hospital I can see where the some of the waste is.
For a medical complaint you are admitted, assesed, stabilised and filled full of morpheine and put back on the streets.
Repeat monthly until they finally decide to operate.
Thats if there is a spare theatre, sufficient staff and no strikes.
So in conclusion I would have spent 30 days in and out of hospital. If they had the capacity to let patients hang around for 7-10 days and be properly assessed the cost of my treatment could have been reduced by 75% (i added the extra cost of GP visits in here).
And dont tell me this is an unusual situation, I know of 1 other person with a similiar complaint who is 6 months into the cycle and from discussions with my fellow patients this system is the norm not an exception
May 23rd, 2007 at 2:45 pm
And Key, best of all, was a financial parasite.
Or as most people here would look at it, he was one of those hard working kiwis creating jobs and funding us lefties and our benefits… He’s probably already booked his ticket to the land of Oz.
Isn’t that right?
May 23rd, 2007 at 2:46 pm
There’s only one point worth making SD.
Hodgson is a minister with a mult billion dollar portfolio that has been given billions in extra money over the past few years and he has no idea what the money is spent on, or why it is not improving the delivery of health care to NZ’ers.
He, and any minister of any ideology, who cannot account even in broad terms for that sort of tax payer provided money should be fired.
Oh shit, I just wrote another TUI ad…..
May 23rd, 2007 at 3:00 pm
Neil- sorry to hear aobut your ill-health, and i’m not trying to be a bugger but I have three point –
1) Anecdotal evidence is not a good basis for policy positions, its overall results that matter and they’re measured with statistics like the rpaid growth in life expectency.
2) I would tend to think that the health professionals who organised the system you dealt with know better than either of us how to efficently allocate limited health resources.
3) And anyway, if you’re saying they lacked capacity isn’t the solution more money for health rather than the complaining about the $4 billion increase that we get from the likes of DPF and Ryall.
May 23rd, 2007 at 3:02 pm
Craig – just read the bloody article:
“He named a range of health statistics that had improved under his Government, including immunisation rates (up), infant mortality (down), life expectancy (up), the cost of GP visits (down) and the employment of around 4000 extra nurses and more than 1000 more doctors.”
May 23rd, 2007 at 3:05 pm
Craig – why not start with reading the article before planning a new career in advertising:
“He named a range of health statistics that had improved under his Government, including immunisation rates (up), infant mortality (down), life expectancy (up), the cost of GP visits (down) and the employment of around 4000 extra nurses and more than 1000 more doctors.”
And to whom can one attribute this quote? No prizes…
May 23rd, 2007 at 3:06 pm
“and the employment of around 4000 extra nurses and more than 1000 more doctors.”
so where are the other 19,000 new public servants employed?
May 23rd, 2007 at 3:10 pm
Sorry, didn’t mean to put that up twice.
I seriously doubt that figure (24k) – someone get me a link or something to show P.S employment figures. I have never heard anything approaching that volume until today. perhaps the name of the poster is a clue…
May 23rd, 2007 at 3:12 pm
Paul M, I have a friend who is probably one of those up the ladder from your friend. He points to mammoth growth of middle management who do bugger all but move paper around.(sorry your friend must go!!!) he reckoned it was better in the 70′s when departments had more direct control. Part of the problem in DHBs today is the lack of talent (mostly) on the boards. They just dont have the commercial expertise to sort it out.Just like the labour government.
May 23rd, 2007 at 3:21 pm
Captian Crab -
lack of talent on DHB boards is a concern – but it was National who created that basic setup in the first place. However, the DHB setup has the advantage of local concerntration on local issues.
Craig -
Don’t give us the bollocks that the Minister doesn’t kow where the money goes, he signs off on the annual report, you can read it online, and then you too will know where the money goes.
May 23rd, 2007 at 3:23 pm
Sam,
Thanks for the compliment, I am trying to put some substance into it.
Unfortunately I don’t agree with your conclusions, primarily because I simply do not trust any stats that come from this government. If the waiting list had reduced, or in the very least stayed the same then while I would be uncomfortable, it could be justified with the increase in pay to nurses etc. (which in my view is still way too low). However, the waiting list hasn’t. It has doubled. There is something fundamentally wrong when this happens and it costs and extra 4bil a year.
I read a fascinating report (I’m trying to locate it on the web to give the link) which gave appalling stats such as: there are now 12,000 administrators in the public health, one for every hospital bed. The same study showed it cost up to five times more to stay one night in the public service than in the private service, up to six times more to order an ambulance.
A colleague who is currently contracting for the health service is telling me horror stories of the bloated management departments. Last week he told me that every process has to have it’s own dedicated manager. With figures like these it is easy to see where the money is going.
As mentioned I don’t trust ANY stats that come from anywhere near wellington. For example, Labour was caught out releasing stats showing the number of procedures had increased. Trouble was, they were including people just admitted and then sent home! This is before we talk about the iniquitous “booking system” and other subterfuges. The one stat they can’t fudge is the waiting list – and that isn’t looking good.
May 23rd, 2007 at 3:27 pm
“just read the bloody article:”
You mean that pile of political double speak and out right lies that is credited to the Minister?
His figures include temporary registrations (which include any doctor coming to NZ for training and or lecturing)and do not account for doctors who have left in that time. They are not extra as such, they are new, but not extra.
Do you even keep up with the news? If we have 4000 extra doctors, why do our A&E depts. have to keep patiens waiting for 12 hours? why did CHCH hospital A&E have to shut its doors as late as yesterday? Why was the hea dof A&E in CHCH telling us that they dont have enough staff and with winter coming he predicts a disaster? where all the new doctors, out playing golf?
Just because the minister speaks, doesn’t mean he speaks the truth.
Do the math before you get abusive.
May 23rd, 2007 at 3:27 pm
All those wankers in the MOH must be laughing. No accountabil ity, reasonable public profile despite the misery in the health system and plush office space in the best part of Wellington.
Then again, they can go and pay their former employees who are now ‘consulting’ back to them, or channel it into their secret little pet interests so that when it comes time to jump ship they can say to their mates (scumbags) ie. anti food, anti booze, anti smoking, anti gambling, that they helped them out and know how to get more money from the well.
Wankers the lot of them. God is not on their side!
May 23rd, 2007 at 3:28 pm
“The one stat they can’t fudge is the waiting list”
Heh. You can break it up into smaller waiting lists (sorry, a bit obtuse & probably doesn’t apply to the DHBs, but hint, take a look at other “waiting lists” guys…
but ooh… while you’re here Bogusnews – where’d the 24k new public servants figure come from?
May 23rd, 2007 at 3:41 pm
Sure I keep up with the news – it’s nice to see a bit of sensationalism.
Unfortunaely soaring immunisation rates, far cheaper prescriptions and heavily subsidised GP visits aren’t as sexy, for example, and therefore don’t make the headlines.
Go a bit further than just parroting the media before you accuse people of not doing research. They will of course focus on the bad – sure it appears bad in that one location (which I thought was Waikato, but never mind) – that’s not the cut & dried situation NZ-wide.
May 23rd, 2007 at 3:41 pm
Sam – I admire your respect for the honesty and integrity of the government.You are a true trooper.
I can’t admire the blind faith with which you support a government that has continually lied to us all. I can’t figure how anyone can believe the statistics that are put out by the government to justify their performance ( see bogusnews post above to save me repeating the FACTS).
So you believe the government when doctors at the coal face are saying it is a big pile of shit and the fan has been turned on. I can’t believe that when visitng an uncle in WGTN hospital last month, after a quadruple bypass, that his oxygen unit & mask was made up of spare parts from 3 broken pieces of equipment that were joined together with medical tape.
I suppose you believe that all under 6′s get free GP visits as well? Not in my neighbourhood.
If that is bollocks, then I am guilty. I prefer real world evidence, to government statistics anyday.
May 23rd, 2007 at 3:50 pm
Matt – I said maths, not research.
The info I provided re temporary doctors being counted as part of the 4000 was from a government website. Hardly parroting the news.
Where do I go to get subsidised GP visits? I think the media do an excellent job of encouraging immunisation programmes.
yes, the news is sensationalist and yes it is taken with a grain of salt, not parroted.
Perhaps you could take your own advice Matt and look at the health system as a whole and make a judgement on it’s effectiveness, rather than parrot a lying government.
May 23rd, 2007 at 4:00 pm
Craig-
great answer – if the stats disagree with you say they were put out by liars.
Again, if your uncle’s oxygen machine wasn’t in mint condition (and I note you didn’t say it didn’t work fine) isn’t that a reason to call for more spending on health, not complain about the $4 billion extra that was spent on health in 2006 compared to 1999?
I don’t assume everything the government says is true, that would be irrational, about as irrational as the bald statement that the government has ‘continually lied to us all’ for years.
May 23rd, 2007 at 4:09 pm
I have seen quite a number of people in hospitals around the country lately, all of whom have recieved excellent care. These are all in New Zealand. Anecdotal evidence is no use, let’s be honest. It’s often given by people with an ax to grind, but is not practical as a general indication.
As a whole, you can’t say the health system is a disaster – there are examples where the standard is not met. These are what are publicised. The multitude of health providers that are doing well, or even just coping with demand, are not publicised. My opinion of the whole is based upon a combination of the sensationalised bad, and the oft-forgotten good.
What I have stated are examples of what is going on behind the scenes – because you disagree doesn’t mean the government said it, nor that it is them I’m ‘parroting’…
May 23rd, 2007 at 4:10 pm
Matt, I have no problem with the 4 billion figure, hell double it. My issue is with the effectiveness of the spend and the accountability of those spending it. Those are the issues I have commented on.
And no, the bloody oxygen system didn’t work which is how I found out it was made up of spare parts! One nurse, replacing medical tape every 15 mins or so, while another had to use a manual mask to keep him breathing..so 2 nurses tied up, why??
Theree is neither room here, nor an inclination on my part, to start listing the lies and BS we have been fed over the years, by politicians of all ‘colours’. If you think otherwise then pull your head out of the sand for a minute and take a breath.
May 23rd, 2007 at 4:22 pm
Craig/ muir
Sorry, I had assumed you were anti-health spending. Good to hear someone who says there are problems with the health system but whose solution isn’t to throw the baby out with the bathwater – as DPF and Ryall would.
You’ll be glad to hear that over the next 4 years the health budget is going up by $3 billion ($1.9 to cover inflation and population growth, most of the rest for eldercare and priamry health).
May 23rd, 2007 at 4:32 pm
Sam, Labour has politicised the DHB appointments by supporting those that support them. City Councils and Community Boards are the same. Take control of everything as usual.
Nationals intent was true in trying to get community representation and draw on community expertise but under labour that has declined and hence we see the problems now. Ever seen any interviews with Wayne Brown? Love him or loathe him he knows whats going on.
I’m due for surgery soon and the care is fantastic.And why shouldnt it be, NZers in health are skilled and do care. (We’ll leave Rest Homes out of that description) Brand new CAT scan etc. Hospitals are a bad example of where Labour wastes money. It is a good example of their economic impotence. The trolls here love to divert to health because it is so emotive and they love using scare tactics with the voter with crys of National would shut them down.
True story: We had a child Nov 05 and the young anethsetist said “gee if National got in they would have closed this down”.This was during the caesarian in the new Auckland Hospitals operating theatre. I think he genuinely believed it.
No attack Labour on all the OTHER departments they have set up with very little purpose other than mainly political correctness. We are vastly over regulated too. And who created that legislation? Labour and even worse in Aucklands example a Labour dominated City Council. I’d love someone to analyse their books to see where our monies going.
May 23rd, 2007 at 4:46 pm
Off topic, but I’d like to say I hope your surgery goes well Captain C.
May 23rd, 2007 at 4:59 pm
The money has gone to pay more and increasingly ineffective managers.
The comment re purchasing health service equipment is totally correct. One rep recently
told me that at ADHB he has to get sign off
by around eight managers before the doctors are even allowed to trial equipment that is
essentially “me-too” ie different manufacturer,
same plastic, at a cheaper price than the gear currently in use. Another hospital was offered a brand new CT scanner for NO COST and the same service price as their existing CT scanner that is ten years old. The managers have taken nearly a year on that difficult decision…
Senior doctors pay has not gone up for several years. They are about to start industrial action in the next few months.
May 23rd, 2007 at 5:36 pm
Cullen said in a speech to the PSA Nov 2006.
“I have no doubt that we have a better health sector as a result of this investment. Health outcomes are better in many ways; we have a positive trend in suicide for example, because we invested heavily in improving the mental health system.
But we need to do better than simply increase health spending. We need to find innovation and we need to get more value as we invest in the sector.”
So from this we can assume that sonic will be well cared for when the National party wins the next election.
May 23rd, 2007 at 7:21 pm
It’s all just been eaten up by compliance costs.
More health spending + more bureacracy = same outcome.
May 23rd, 2007 at 9:18 pm
The Commonwealth Fund is a private foundation that supports research into health system performance. This is their latest report, which compares aspects of the health systems of the US, UK, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and Germany:
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/publications_show.htm?doc_id=482678
New Zealand ranks third overall, and is in the top two on five of the nine indicators. This is despite spending the least per capita on health – almost three times less than the US, which ranks last overall on system performance.
I’d also be interested to see the source for the ’24,000 extra public servants’. On my understanding, ‘public servants’ include not only public-hospital doctors and nurses (and pharmacists, physiotherapists, technicians, data coders, social workers, et al) but also teachers, police, etc.
May 23rd, 2007 at 9:39 pm
Sorry. That should have been: ‘New Zealand ranks third equal overall’ (with Australia).
May 23rd, 2007 at 10:53 pm
That was a brillant thread. It should be taught in “Civics ” classes. sam and red rag and sonic and the gang, great writing.
Health Care is evolving.Health Care is evolving. Health Care is evolving.More people are using it, using it for longer and for more reasons. The evolution costs. Better health costs.
May 23rd, 2007 at 10:54 pm
That was a brillant thread. It should be taught in “Civics ” classes. sam and red rag and sonic and the gang, great writing.
Health Care is evolving.Health Care is evolving. Health Care is evolving.More people are using it, using it for longer and for more reasons. The evolution costs. Better health costs.
May 23rd, 2007 at 11:03 pm
The redneck National supporters who infest this blog make me laugh when they keep bleeting on about the health system.
For years under National auckland waited and waited for a replacement (Starship) childrens hospital to no avail.
At that time my son needed an operation that should have been done in the old childrens hospital.
Our GP said to us, under no surcumstance should we use the public childrens hospital due to it’s age, inherent bugs and diiseases that infected a building that was used in WW11 and well past due to be replaced.
So what we in the end we went private, same Specialist different.
This fiasco was caused by National, much like i would suggest is going on at Wellington, Waikato and i have no doubt other hospitals around the country.
As you National halfwits can be blinded by statistics, i will stick to what i have seen happen in NZ politics over my 56 years of life in NZ and you lot can stick to your bullshit statistics and if you have to pay for private hospital operations out of your own pockets.
I did!
May 23rd, 2007 at 11:29 pm
I see the left are too busy trying to blame policies from a National Party that hasn’t been in power this CENTURY. Good god, deflect all you like, the stats don’t lie folks. NZ’s health system is dire, embarrassing and not helping those who really need it.
All this gloating about how much better we are then the American system is laughable. Their system is far superior to ours. All forms of socialised medicine has its flaws…. and I’m dong my best to keep out of the NHS over here.
So where did that extra 4 billion go? How can a country as poxy as NZ dissolve 4 billion without a trace?
May 24th, 2007 at 12:13 am
“How can a country as poxy as NZ dissolve 4 billion without a trace? ”
Clint, you’re poxy pal, you wanker. This is my village.Don’t abuse this country.
Argue the hypothesis that health is evolving, getting more involved and thus is costing more. Answer that?
Don’t ever call N.Z poxy you creep.!!!!!!
May 24th, 2007 at 7:57 am
um..!..i think..on a global ranking..
that our incidences of venereal disease are
..and traditionally have been…quite high..eh..?
so..poxy..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
May 24th, 2007 at 9:12 am
Thanks sonic, -nothing major.
May 24th, 2007 at 9:51 am
When I was a child, my father spent a bit of time as a recovering alcoholic (and recovered fully). One of the first things they made him do was admit he had a problem, before he did that, it was impossible for them to help him.
It disturbs me that in our PC climate if anyone says the obvious, they are dumped on. We won’t sort out these massive issues, such as health until we are prepared to accept and state the blatently obvious. NZ a poxy nation, perhaps a bit harsh, but I can understand why his concern for our rapidly declining standard of living would make him say this.
So I have to go back to the facts, 4 Bil more a year, and a waiting list that has doubled to 200,000. I thought you socialists were meant to be in for the good of the masses? Unfortuntately your reaction only reinforces my view of socialists which is they pretend to be concerned for the masses, but their real interest is in control.
I do think you would get a lot more credibility if you admitted the obvious which is yes, we have a problem with health, but hey, let’s look at areas that Labour may be working in.
May 24th, 2007 at 10:32 am
Clint,
You’re forgetting Stef’s experience of South Korea’s health system.
My experience of the NZ system has been fairly positive. But when I went to get my screws & plates out of my arm, I was able to go to a private health care provider under ACC and get it done within weeks of my initial consult for the surgery. (plus they had kick-ass meals and service!)
I fail to see why Labour does not take up the extra capacity that the private sector has?
Labour have said that they will provide for the public, but have failed. Why continue down this track of shovelling money into a big, deep pit
May 24th, 2007 at 11:01 am
Oh yes SMM, privately NZ health is fine and dandy, and from what I remember, Stef had great service in SK, but coming back to NZ was a mistake. (correct me if I’m wrong)
An ACT policy SMM, was to take the tax dollars that a health board would use and put it directly into a private hospital waiting list for say heart operations, and as it would cost less than pulling it through the bureacracy, the waiting lists would be much lower. Deadweight cost of collecting tax and then putting it into a health board is a lot more than you think!
J – typical behaviour from a poxy inbred
What poxy village are you from? Sheesh- get over it.
Sure health costs are rising, and I am sure that is why countries that have full socialised health care are doing the worst while countries with prominent private provisions have higher standards.
May 24th, 2007 at 12:12 pm
I bet if Clint was injured in a car accident he would refuse to use the UK NHS as a matter of principle
Is that not right Clinty?
May 24th, 2007 at 12:26 pm
For crap’s sake Sonic, its called A&E.
Get over yourself and the bureaucratic chicken wing you’ve got stuck in your craw.
Did anyone see the article on Close Up the other day about Hamilton A&E? Very revealing. They are trying to deliver the best service possible, but are under-funded/resourced. The operating theatre cut 11 operations on a single day because of bed shortages in the A&E department.
And who were the frontline staff blaming?? Management.
May 24th, 2007 at 12:30 pm
Clint, any chance you could read the link I posted?
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/publications_show.htm?doc_id=482678
You say:
“Sure health costs are rising, and I am sure that is why countries that have full socialised health care are doing the worst while countries with prominent private provisions have higher standards”
I’m not sure what your criteria are for “doing the worst” are. But according to the independent studies’ criteria (see link), close to the opposite is true.
“put[ting] it directly into a private hospital…would cost less than pulling it through the bureacracy”
Again, this might be what your textbook says, but in reality, more privatised systems with competing insurers and providers have very high transaction/administration costs. Hence the US spends 3 times as much as NZ on health per capita, for similar outcomes.
There are different ways of judging health system performance, including anecdotal experience. But the evidence suggests that on the ‘value for money’ measure, NZ is doing relatively well.
May 24th, 2007 at 1:00 pm
“But the evidence suggests that on the ‘value for money’ measure, NZ is doing relatively well.”
Say what? Did you even read the title of this post?
Where did the $4b go?
But you did say relatively, so lets just assume most other countries’ health systems routinely lose $4b too, shall we.
May 24th, 2007 at 1:01 pm
heine said..
“..countries that have full socialised health care are doing the worst …
…while countries with prominent private provisions have higher standards…”
the latter example you cite would be..america..??..
(just trying to measure the degree/extent of your disconnect from reality here..eh..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
May 24th, 2007 at 1:46 pm
(just trying to measure the degree/extent of your disconnect from reality here..eh..?..)
Phil u
I’m not sure you are qualified to measure reality or is it that you are just using this blog to practice your interaction skills incase somebody eventually posts a comment on Whoar.co
May 24th, 2007 at 1:49 pm
(just trying to measure the degree/extent of your disconnect from reality here..eh..?..)
Phil u
I’m not sure you are qualified to measure reality or is it that you are just using this blog to practice your interaction skills in case somebody eventually posts a comment on Whoar.co
May 24th, 2007 at 2:09 pm
“Sure health costs are rising, and I am sure that is why countries that have full socialised health care are doing the worst while countries with prominent private provisions have higher standards>”
Clint. Real world. Now. The american health system is a disgrace. Privatisation has managed to destroy basic rights to health provision for a large percentage of its citizenry.
Why can’t you present a valid case for your weak assumptions. I’m glad we exported you. Enjoy your drought.
May 24th, 2007 at 2:42 pm
J
Could you just answer the question where did the 4 billion dollars go.Do try and present a valid case and not use weak assumptions and if its not to much to ask “try and stay on message”
May 24th, 2007 at 4:15 pm
“Could you just answer the question where did the 4 billion dollars?”
TerryJ. Come on read for christs sakes. In this thread there have been number of well reasoned responses to that question. Reread it. RedRag put it succintly below.
“This $4b increase is primarily the result of the global shortage of trained medical professionals, and the fact that they have been able to command globally competitive salaries as a result. The “free market”…she’s a bitch ain’t she?
Oh and BTW….it is a grotesquely dishonest use of figures to talk about a $20b rise in tax revenue without mentioning the $55b rise in GDP over the same period. Tax revenue in NZ has remained a relatively constant proportion of GDP for decades, moving up and down within a smallish band as macro-economic and policy settings change.”
Health Care is evolving.Health Care is evolving. Health Care is evolving.More people are using it, using it for longer and for more reasons. The evolution costs. Better health costs
May 24th, 2007 at 4:39 pm
J
Im asking you to answer the question not try and fob people off with a cut and paste job from redrag as if he has some creditability or is that the best you can come up with.You seem to put yourself about on this blog as an expert on the international health systems surely you would have your own theory and an explanation on how a government can come up with a $4 billion spend without a business case that has required and provable outcomes.
May 24th, 2007 at 5:19 pm
J, by you own flapping tongue are wou confounded. If there wa a $55b increase in GDP and a $20b increase in taxation then you bloody commies have taken a cool 36% of the extra GDP in taxation. Please explain how that is a good thing. No wonder the country is phouched. You gave us a thirty six percent national marginal tax rate and the only thing you have managed to increase in return for that is the amount of crime and the numbers on sickness benefit.
May 24th, 2007 at 8:53 pm
terry j..
over 2 million page views so far this month..
and..ah..where can we see your work/output,,?
chin up!..eh darling..?.
and um..!..you’re sounding a bit green..(the other sort..?..eh..?..)..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
May 24th, 2007 at 9:32 pm
So phule you’ll be off the benefit soon then?
You know with all the revenue from all the page views and advertising n’stuff.
Right?
A success story.
A poster boy, if you will,….. for WINZ.
(eh?……eh?)
Oh and you can see MY work/output in your bank account once a fortnight.
No need to say thanks. Glad to help.
May 24th, 2007 at 9:39 pm
TERRY J,
You can reject the answer but you can’t say one hasn’t been provided.
Health doesn’t fall into the nice economic world of 101 demand and supply. It’s productivity measurement is highly debatable and intensively anecdotal.
All we do seem to agree on is its not at a level anyone feels satisfied with.However the lazy call of privatisation of a system that can kill you if it doesn’t deliver is not supported by the realities of marketplaces where this has happened.Hello the U.S.
May 24th, 2007 at 9:40 pm
TERRY J,
You can reject the answer but you can’t say one hasn’t been provided.
Health doesn’t fall into the nice economic world of 101 demand and supply. It’s productivity measurement is highly debatable and intensively anecdotal.
All we do seem to agree on is its not at a level anyone feels satisfied with.However the lazy call of privatisation of a system that can kill you if it doesn’t deliver is not supported by the realities of marketplaces where this has happened.Hello the U.S.
May 24th, 2007 at 10:52 pm
J, nice work on telling me to enjoy my drought (I’m sure Aussie farmers would love to beat a apology out of you for that!) But I am not in Aussie – although I’m sure if I did we could all line up and point and laugh at you.
Sonic. Have you used the NHS recently? No, thought not.
Funny that in countries that have privatised health systems they have higher standards of health delivery for a fraction of what our bureaucracy pays for our ailing system.
I beg the question again, as Sonic and certainly not J cannot answer it, where did the 4 billion go?
May 25th, 2007 at 4:13 am
chicky said..
“..So phule you’ll be off the benefit soon then?..”
as soon…as i can..
that is..the plan…
stan…
(as i’ve informed the good folks at work and income..
and believe me..!..
i do look forward to the day..
(i call it) independence day..!..)
eh..?
and i can almost smell/taste it..!)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
May 25th, 2007 at 9:54 am
clint…blinkers off now..the act party can’t pay you to wear them forever
May 25th, 2007 at 10:03 am
clint…blinkers off now..the act party can’t pay you to wear them forever
May 25th, 2007 at 10:15 pm
It doesn’t matter how many billions you will ever throw at our health system, we are just behind Australia and then the US. Apalling health statistics and gradually getting worse. We are in the throes of the Western World junk lifestyle, eating garbage, with ever increasing additives replacing actual food. Comon, look at our obesity figures multiplying every year yet little is done, why because it will piss off the Corporates who will lose money. The Food CEOs sit on the same boards as the Drug cos. They feed us tempting garbage, the population gets fat, they get sick and off they go to the Doctor. Its just common economics and is right up there with oil profits. Until we, as a nation take charge of our health, get off our fat arses and recognise that we are feeding ourselves into oblivion, nothing will be done and our health system will end up bankrupt.
Need proof, take a look at the US health system and their lifestyles.
Ever taken your kids to the public pool lately. Remember what kids looked like at the pools twenty years ago. You dont need to be a rocket scientist to figure it all out. Everybody, health does not come in a bottle, and prevention is always better than a cure. I believe that heart and soul. If you really cared abouit your health, you would too. Before it catches up to you.
May 25th, 2007 at 10:18 pm
It doesn’t matter how many billions you will ever throw at our health system, we are just behind Australia and then the US. Apalling health statistics and gradually getting worse. We are in the throes of the Western World junk lifestyle, eating garbage, with ever increasing additives replacing actual food. Comon, look at our obesity figures multiplying every year yet little is done, why because it will piss off the Corporates who will lose money. The Food CEOs sit on the same boards as the Drug cos. They feed us tempting garbage, the population gets fat, they get sick and off they go to the Doctor. Its just common economics and is right up there with oil profits. Until we, as a nation take charge of our health, get off our fat arses and recognise that we are feeding ourselves into oblivion, nothing will be done and our health system will end up bankrupt.
Need proof, take a look at the US health system and their lifestyles.
Ever taken your kids to the public pool lately. Remember what kids looked like at the pools twenty years ago. You dont need to be a rocket scientist to figure it all out. Everybody, health does not come in a bottle, and prevention is always better than a cure. I believe that heart and soul. If you really cared abouit your health, you would too. Before it catches up to you.
May 26th, 2007 at 11:45 am
Be fun to encounter Ross on a night duty at some public hospital some time….Hopefully with his arrogant perspective on how the world operates he would not subject himself to the risks associated with checking in to the public system. Or perhaps he could send off a letter to HDC because he wanted to smoke in a non smoking facility, or because his family weren’t allowed to stay overnight( all of them including the newborn baby) whilst his wound was healing, or because his porridge was cold ( or worse still he ordered cornflakes), or because he had to wait 9 minutes for a nurse to answer his call bell when he wanted his pillows fluffed, or the doctor mispronounced his name and didn’t speak English to the standard he felt was acceptable (why cant I have a NZ trained doctor anyway?), or the hospital discharged him when his daughter was still on holiday overseas and therefore couldn’t collect him or check up on him or because his prescription required him to pay for it, or he wasn’t provided with a cup of tea every hour on the hour ( like I have at home)…. Oh yes these are the true delights of the public hospital system which happen on a daily basis and no these difficulties are not the majority of patients but they are the ones that end up sucking up much more than their fair share of the DHB dollars in bureaucratic investigations, see clinicians leaving in droves & compromise the care & treatment of the majority of other patients.
Ah yep Ross we’re all monsters in the hospitals and we chose our respective professions so we could exact our revenge on the world in a legally sanctioned manner…. You’re a dick Ross.
May 26th, 2007 at 9:42 pm
I see J cannot answer me and needs me to spank him around Kiwiblog every day.
Where did the 4 billion go J? Why is our health system worse off than it was before they lost that 4 billion inside of it?
June 13th, 2007 at 1:54 am
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June 13th, 2007 at 1:56 am
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