Comments on: Auckland Mayoral Contenders http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html DPF's Kiwiblog - Fomenting Happy Mischief since 2003 Mon, 22 Mar 2010 12:32:32 +1300 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Steve Taylor - Deputy Leader, Direct Democracy Party of New Zealand http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326682 Steve Taylor - Deputy Leader, Direct Democracy Party of New Zealand Sun, 05 Aug 2007 07:04:05 +0000 http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326682 Porcupine: You and others would be welcome to talk with Party Leader Kelvyn Alp, myself, and a number of other DDP members and visitors every Wednesday night 7.30pm - 10.30pm in the DDP chat room. DDP are very open to rebuttle, critique, discussion, and debate. What we are proposing is not complicated, and not expensive - simply neccessary. Steve Taylor Porcupine:

You and others would be welcome to talk with Party Leader Kelvyn Alp, myself, and a number of other DDP members and visitors every Wednesday night 7.30pm – 10.30pm in the DDP chat room. DDP are very open to rebuttle, critique, discussion, and debate. What we are proposing is not complicated, and not expensive – simply neccessary.

Steve Taylor

]]> By: Porcupine http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326648 Porcupine Sun, 05 Aug 2007 05:12:18 +0000 http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326648 No, but most of the discussions around the issue of a constitution focus on the Treaty of Waitangi as the founding documant and wish to enshrine it in special laws and a special say for Maori (ie to entrench the iwi elite in the constitution). This of course is at fundamental odd with democracy. The other issue is that NZ is the size of a middling city so all we really need is a board of 12-20 people to run it. Many of our problems at present stem from the ludicrous expense of our democracy, or the expense of making it look like we have public consultation. Base on their passed track record many here will be very suspicious that you groups ideas are just going to add another layer of expense to an already overburdoned system. Sounds good in principle but the devil will be in the implimentation. Cheers. No, but most of the discussions around the issue of a constitution focus on the Treaty of Waitangi as the founding documant and wish to enshrine it in special laws and a special say for Maori (ie to entrench the iwi elite in the constitution). This of course is at fundamental odd with democracy.

The other issue is that NZ is the size of a middling city so all we really need is a board of 12-20 people to run it. Many of our problems at present stem from the ludicrous expense of our democracy, or the expense of making it look like we have public consultation. Base on their passed track record many here will be very suspicious that you groups ideas are just going to add another layer of expense to an already overburdoned system. Sounds good in principle but the devil will be in the implimentation.

Cheers.

]]> By: Porcupine http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326646 Porcupine Sun, 05 Aug 2007 05:06:41 +0000 http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326646 Yes the local community asked for the theatre and the global community voted for low rates increases. Yes the local community asked for the theatre and the global community voted for low rates increases.

]]> By: Steve Taylor - Deputy Leader, Direct Democracy Party of New Zealand http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326640 Steve Taylor - Deputy Leader, Direct Democracy Party of New Zealand Sun, 05 Aug 2007 04:45:47 +0000 http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326640 Porcupine: A Constitution would further guard against the possibility of a BCIR outcome that might undemine universal rights eg freedom of association, freedom of expression, etc Could you give me an example of a current Constitution that is racist / seperatist in nature? Steve Taylor Porcupine: A Constitution would further guard against the possibility of a BCIR outcome that might undemine universal rights eg freedom of association, freedom of expression, etc

Could you give me an example of a current Constitution that is racist / seperatist in nature?

Steve Taylor

]]> By: Steve Taylor - Deputy Leader, Direct Democracy Party of New Zealand http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326638 Steve Taylor - Deputy Leader, Direct Democracy Party of New Zealand Sun, 05 Aug 2007 04:37:33 +0000 http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326638 P.S: The fact is, the majority are right a majority of the time. Steve Taylor P.S: The fact is, the majority are right a majority of the time.

Steve Taylor

]]> By: Steve Taylor - Deputy Leader, Direct Democracy Party of New Zealand http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326637 Steve Taylor - Deputy Leader, Direct Democracy Party of New Zealand Sun, 05 Aug 2007 04:36:50 +0000 http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326637 Shawn: you cannot logically propose that those who exercise wisdom, intelligence, and knowledge to elect representatives cannot also exercise wisdom, intelligence, and knowledge to vote on electoral issues. Porcupine: Did the community ask for the theatre, or was it imposed upon them? Steve Taylor Shawn: you cannot logically propose that those who exercise wisdom, intelligence, and knowledge to elect representatives cannot also exercise wisdom, intelligence, and knowledge to vote on electoral issues.

Porcupine: Did the community ask for the theatre, or was it imposed upon them?

Steve Taylor

]]> By: Shawn http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326617 Shawn Sun, 05 Aug 2007 02:21:10 +0000 http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326617 "Surely you cannot be saying that the will of the people is dangerous to democracy; nor that binding referendum and representative recall is dangerous to society?" Possibly yes. The "will of the people" in practice is just majority rules, which ignores that the majority at any given time might be wrong, deluded, badly informed, or just plain stupid. Binding referendum's may still pass laws and policy that are wrong. The "majority = right" of direct democracy is a flawed idea. “Surely you cannot be saying that the will of the people is dangerous to democracy; nor that binding referendum and representative recall is dangerous to society?”

Possibly yes. The “will of the people” in practice is just majority rules, which ignores that the majority at any given time might be wrong, deluded, badly informed, or just plain stupid. Binding referendum’s may still pass laws and policy that are wrong. The “majority = right” of direct democracy is a flawed idea.

]]> By: Porcupine http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326567 Porcupine Sat, 04 Aug 2007 21:07:56 +0000 http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326567 Steve: The FO rates party campaigns that is will hold rates rises to the rate of inflation They win overwhelmingly They all have a dream to pring prosperity to Glen Innes by building a giant transport/theatre complex The ratepayers get their notices where some of their rates have gone up 40% Oh but we didnt promise to hold rates based on land inflation to the CPI One member objects to this but the party decides to bump him/her Does s/he get a referendum Also be very careful what you wish for with a constitution - will it be a racist/seperatist constitution or will it uphold democracy? Steve:

The FO rates party campaigns that is will hold rates rises to the rate of inflation
They win overwhelmingly
They all have a dream to pring prosperity to Glen Innes by building a giant transport/theatre complex
The ratepayers get their notices where some of their rates have gone up 40%
Oh but we didnt promise to hold rates based on land inflation to the CPI
One member objects to this but the party decides to bump him/her
Does s/he get a referendum

Also be very careful what you wish for with a constitution – will it be a racist/seperatist constitution or will it uphold democracy?

]]> By: phil u http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326562 phil u Sat, 04 Aug 2007 20:52:27 +0000 http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326562 david s. sure.. http://www.95bfm.co.nz/default,18,bcasts.sm?cast=3854&start=10 (it is in two parts..) phil(whoar.co.nz) david s.

sure..

http://www.95bfm.co.nz/default,18,bcasts.sm?cast=3854&start=10

(it is in two parts..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)

]]> By: David S. http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326561 David S. Sat, 04 Aug 2007 20:46:58 +0000 http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326561 I've always thought binding petitions would be beneficial. Phil, would you mind linking that interview? Apologies if you already have and I missed it. I’ve always thought binding petitions would be beneficial.

Phil, would you mind linking that interview? Apologies if you already have and I missed it.

]]> By: Steve Taylor - Deputy Leader, Direct Democracy Party of New Zealand http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326560 Steve Taylor - Deputy Leader, Direct Democracy Party of New Zealand Sat, 04 Aug 2007 20:34:34 +0000 http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326560 Guys, your objections are about 120 years out of date - have a closer look at Switzerland, and around 21 US States who have successfully integrated Direct Democracy. The current NZ system doesn't prevent tyranny by the minority because of the bastardisation of MMP (goodness me, complaints about this issue alone make up most of the posts on Kiwiblog). It is also a leap to suggest that NZ has "Representative Recall" under the present system - when a candidate can be booted out of the Electorate, and yet return to Parliament anyway on the MMP list. That is not Representative Recall, it's Representative Recycling! Waiting for 3 years to do so is hardly fair on the Electorate, is it? Triple D: can't see how its an issue that the material on the website is well organised? I suspect the biggest objection to DD will be from the established politicians - as Theodore Dalrymple says "hogs will not slaughter themselves". Seems to be working well in Wanganui? Steve Taylor Guys, your objections are about 120 years out of date – have a closer look at Switzerland, and around 21 US States who have successfully integrated Direct Democracy. The current NZ system doesn’t prevent tyranny by the minority because of the bastardisation of MMP (goodness me, complaints about this issue alone make up most of the posts on Kiwiblog). It is also a leap to suggest that NZ has “Representative Recall” under the present system – when a candidate can be booted out of the Electorate, and yet return to Parliament anyway on the MMP list. That is not Representative Recall, it’s Representative Recycling! Waiting for 3 years to do so is hardly fair on the Electorate, is it?

Triple D: can’t see how its an issue that the material on the website is well organised?

I suspect the biggest objection to DD will be from the established politicians – as Theodore Dalrymple says “hogs will not slaughter themselves”.

Seems to be working well in Wanganui?

Steve Taylor

]]> By: phil u http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326555 phil u Sat, 04 Aug 2007 18:53:58 +0000 http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326555 gooner..go short..! phil(whoar.co.nz) gooner..go short..!

phil(whoar.co.nz)

]]> By: Gooner http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326530 Gooner Sat, 04 Aug 2007 10:46:38 +0000 http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326530 Steve, we already have Representative Recall. It is able to be exercised every three years. Steve, we already have Representative Recall. It is able to be exercised every three years.

]]> By: Dead Duck Dux http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326527 Dead Duck Dux Sat, 04 Aug 2007 10:37:03 +0000 http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326527 Hey, Steve You say voters wouldn't get bored with participation because they already do polls and stuff like that...but that's not quite the same, is it? Polling only ever effects a tiny (but statistically valid) group of people. It's a little bit of a leap to suggest that this experience validates the entire electorate routinely getting motivated to participate in democratic activities. You say the risk of tyranny by a minority is low because it hasn't happened overseas. Yeah, fine. But that's hardly a stunning defence, is it? How would the SYSTEM prevent tyranny by the minority? What are its safeguards? Are there like caps or minimum voter turnout required? If a small group of motivated voters managed to get a majority and vetoed an Appropriations Bill or some other confidence matter what would happen? Hey, Steve

You say voters wouldn’t get bored with participation because they already do polls and stuff like that…but that’s not quite the same, is it? Polling only ever effects a tiny (but statistically valid) group of people. It’s a little bit of a leap to suggest that this experience validates the entire electorate routinely getting motivated to participate in democratic activities.

You say the risk of tyranny by a minority is low because it hasn’t happened overseas. Yeah, fine. But that’s hardly a stunning defence, is it? How would the SYSTEM prevent tyranny by the minority? What are its safeguards? Are there like caps or minimum voter turnout required?

If a small group of motivated voters managed to get a majority and vetoed an Appropriations Bill or some other confidence matter what would happen?

]]> By: Dead Duck Dux http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326526 Dead Duck Dux Sat, 04 Aug 2007 10:23:24 +0000 http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326526 It's alright, Steve, I got the right address ;-) So, I go straight to the FAQ section, as you suggested, I'm thinking, "yeah, I'd like to browse these Q and A" but can I? Oh, no, the great Direct Democracy people don't want visitors to their site just hopping around looking up shit themselves, selecting the question they want answering. Oh, no. You have to wade through a pre-prepared presentation of questions and answers all nicely stacked and packed. Oh, the road to perdition is paved with such good intentions... It’s alright, Steve, I got the right address ;-)

So, I go straight to the FAQ section, as you suggested, I’m thinking, “yeah, I’d like to browse these Q and A” but can I? Oh, no, the great Direct Democracy people don’t want visitors to their site just hopping around looking up shit themselves, selecting the question they want answering. Oh, no. You have to wade through a pre-prepared presentation of questions and answers all nicely stacked and packed. Oh, the road to perdition is paved with such good intentions…

]]> By: Dead Duck Dux http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326525 Dead Duck Dux Sat, 04 Aug 2007 10:18:09 +0000 http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326525 Sorry, that web address again, Steve, was it mobrules dot co dot nz? Sorry, that web address again, Steve, was it mobrules dot co dot nz?

]]> By: Steve Taylor - Deputy Leader, Direct Democracy Party of New Zealand http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326523 Steve Taylor - Deputy Leader, Direct Democracy Party of New Zealand Sat, 04 Aug 2007 10:09:07 +0000 http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326523 Sorry Porcupine - which system would that be where those who don't toe the line get bumped? It took 6 lies to Parliament, the media, and the public before David Benson Pope was "bumped". Now the entire Public Service is under a cloud as a result of a certain Mr Mark Prebble - there is your "system" for you - unelected officials tainting the democratic waters. I need more information on what it is you believe is "a dangerous policy" before I can respond. It might save some time if you go to the DDP website, and click on the FAQ's section - it addresses a number of alleged criticisms of Direct Democracy, none of which appear to stand the test of scrutiny. Surely you cannot be saying that the will of the people is dangerous to democracy; nor that binding referendum and representative recall is dangerous to society? Steve Taylor Sorry Porcupine – which system would that be where those who don’t toe the line get bumped? It took 6 lies to Parliament, the media, and the public before David Benson Pope was “bumped”. Now the entire Public Service is under a cloud as a result of a certain Mr Mark Prebble – there is your “system” for you – unelected officials tainting the democratic waters.
I need more information on what it is you believe is “a dangerous policy” before I can respond. It might save some time if you go to the DDP website, and click on the FAQ’s section – it addresses a number of alleged criticisms of Direct Democracy, none of which appear to stand the test of scrutiny. Surely you cannot be saying that the will of the people is dangerous to democracy; nor that binding referendum and representative recall is dangerous to society?

Steve Taylor

]]> By: Porcupine http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326519 Porcupine Sat, 04 Aug 2007 09:49:38 +0000 http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326519 Steve, we've already got the system where people who don't toe the sychophantic party line get bumped - unless you have proper check and balances that is a very dangeraous policy. Are you advocating that no-one can be bumped unless there is a referendum or election or that your party decides who gets bumped? Steve, we’ve already got the system where people who don’t toe the sychophantic party line get bumped – unless you have proper check and balances that is a very dangeraous policy. Are you advocating that no-one can be bumped unless there is a referendum or election or that your party decides who gets bumped?

]]> By: Gooner http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326517 Gooner Sat, 04 Aug 2007 09:45:12 +0000 http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326517 Phil - you seem to be able to know future prices on the stockmarket with remarkable prescience. Got any tips for me mate? Phil – you seem to be able to know future prices on the stockmarket with remarkable prescience. Got any tips for me mate?

]]> By: peterquixote http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326514 peterquixote Sat, 04 Aug 2007 09:35:16 +0000 http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/auckland_mayoral_contenders.html#comment-326514 how did you go aaron , on farra column, did you sort them out, i hope so, hubbard was boring even from here, how did you go aaron , on farra column, did you sort them out, i hope so, hubbard was boring even from here,

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