Maybe Pete Hodgson could concentrate on this
August 31st, 2007 at 10:57 am by David FarrarHey Pete – when you are not busy searching through rubbish bins and reading the Truth in order to attack John Key, maybe you could do something about the fact Dunedin Hospital Emergency Department is asking people to stay away and warning of 24 hour waits for beds.
I may be wrong but as both Minister of Health and MP for Dunedin North this might fall within your patch. But hey only if you can spare the time.
Tags: Labour
August 31st, 2007 at 11:09 am
I know what he should do.
He should encourage everyone to vote National. Or maybe even Act.
Then the right will win the next election and slash taxes.
And then they’ll cut spending on hospitals and health services.
And everyone will come back from Australia. Yay!
It’ll be great – everybody will have great health-care, even those poor people. (If they like get off their arses and get proper jobs and work hard like everybody else. Stupid commie-lesbian bums watching tv and smoking drugs all day and voting for liebour.)
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 11:13 am
Yeah because hospitals were doing so well in the 1990′s with che’s rha’s etc, and actually charging people that was a great idea, is that still on nationals agenda? No its not. People are going to australia because their BEFORE tax income is so much higher, i don’ t think National will do anything to change this, the whole reason we have a low wage economy is because of the employment contracts act
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 11:21 am
Good effort rickyjj!
Very noticeable that you didn’t actually make any comment about Hodgsons piss poor performance tho. Or on the sad state of Dunedin Hospital, or the other DHB’s that are operating below par.
Still, sarcasm solves everything right.
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 11:40 am
Good effort rickyjj!
Hey, you’re not too bad at the old sarcasm yourself!
Very noticeable that you didn’t actually make any comment about Hodgsons piss poor performance tho.
Sorry, I would have thought his shitty performance was pretty obvious given David’s post the “Dunedin Hospital Emergency Department is asking people to stay away and warning of 24 hour waits for beds.”
Or on the sad state of Dunedin Hospital, or the other DHB’s that are operating below par.
Again true. Although I was of the belief that we’re still doing pretty well internationally on a per-dollar basis…
Still, sarcasm solves everything right.
Almost right. Sarcasm and tax cuts solve everything.
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 11:42 am
Wow What a great business to be in When you tell your customers to sod off I wish my business was that busy that I couldnt handle all the customers beating a path to my door.
Helen Pete The rest of your useless Socialists and your equally useless supporters Where are you? Come in? Cant hear you morons?
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 11:42 am
Maybe National should concentrate on like, y’know, releasing some actual policy?
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 11:42 am
Jeez Tane How original
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 11:45 am
Maybe National should concentrate on like, y’know, releasing some actual policy?
Yeah Tane, they’ve said there’ll be tax cuts!
Vote:What else do you really need?
August 31st, 2007 at 11:53 am
Surely some over-paid hospital admin person can knock out a happy happy reassuring report for Dunedin A&E like that on the news yesterday evening white-washing the killer Wanganui Hospital – so stick with it Pete Hodgson, trolling through the garbage looking for some dirt on Key. Or perhaps you could have the over-blown middle management of hospitals look at some appointment system for ‘emergency’ departments. But don’t let up on Key, because discovering the low-down on him will solve dog attacks, child abuse and killing, binge drinking, rising rates . . . even the sick mess that is our health service.
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 11:57 am
rickyjj, so with billions more pumped into health by labour and negligible increases in services why do you assume the any reduction in spending will reduce services?
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 11:58 am
But don’t let up on Key, because discovering the low-down on him will solve dog attacks, child abuse and killing, binge drinking, rising rates . . . even the sick mess that is our health service.
OK that’s just silly.
Attacking Key isn’t helping the country at all.
In fact this is exactly why we all need to vote for National.
Tax cuts are the only thing that can solve dog attacks, child abuse and killing, binge drinking, rising rates . . . and yes even the sick mess that is our health service.
Give me a T, an A, an X, C U T S
Vote:Gooooooooooo TAX CUTS!!!
August 31st, 2007 at 11:59 am
Jeez Tane How original
Na, I’m just sayin’ the Nats don’t sound that credible criticising the govt when they can’t or won’t tell us what they’d do instead.
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 12:01 pm
rickyjj, so with billions more pumped into health by labour and negligible increases in services why do you assume the any reduction in spending will reduce services?
Oh I don’t, I think it’ll be a good thing.
At the moment all that spending’s just going to the bureaucrats in Wellington. And we all know they don’t do anything except watch tv and smoke drugs and vote for liebour and occasionally rig internet polls.
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 12:03 pm
rickyjj, it’s a serious question and you didn’t answer it. so i’ll ask it again – with billions more pumped into health by labour and negligible increases in services why do you assume the any reduction in spending will reduce services?
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 12:10 pm
rickyjj, it’s a serious question and you didn’t answer it. so i’ll ask it again – with billions more pumped into health by labour and negligible increases in services why do you assume the any reduction in spending will reduce services?
I’m sorry krazykiwi, so you don’t think all that money’s gone to Wellington bureaucrats? I’m impressed.
Where do you think all the billions pumped in have gone then?
But anyway. I assume that any reduction in spending will reduce services because I think that if you reduce spending in anything, without making things more efficient, something is going to give.
Unless the National Party can manage things more efficiently than Labour, or has some better policies, less money will mean less services.
What are National’s health policies krazykiwi?
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 12:10 pm
When are the left going to acknowledge that a fully funded public health service is untenable. Look at the current expenditure, the recent increases in expenditure, the projected increase in costs and the growing and aging population. Add this all up and you have a meltdown. I believe we are starting to see this.
Thing is Hodgson, Clark, Cullen et al know this, but they are so entrenched in their dogma that they dare not acknowledge it.
Until we start to create a public/private interface in health which is co operative we will continue to have increasing waiting lists, staffing crisis, substandard cancer care, clogged wards and emergency departments.
Australia has such a system and having worked in it for a year my opinion is that its pragmatic and effective.
Amazing how Australia has cut taxes over the past ten years, but has also delivered more healthcare to its citizens. Medicare subsidies and tax deductable health insurance have a lot to do with this.
if you guys continue to trot out the tired old mantra that this is just “neo liberal privatization”, you are doing a huge disservice to the many patients taken off waiting lists by your government.
Acknowledging you have a problem is the first step in solving it. Time to own up
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 12:17 pm
“Maybe National should concentrate on like, y’know, releasing some actual policy?”
What do you mean? Is there more to governance than tax cuts! tax cuts! tax cuts! If so I’d like to see some evidence for this outrageous claim Tane!
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 12:21 pm
5th grade economics.
But let’s deal with what’s visible. Billions more spent, bugger all to show for it. Labour has clearly failed in the efficiency test. And they’ve failed badly.
When National does release health policy we can be sure that they will be looking to fix Labour’s carnage. Lots of options there.
Labour – failed ideas, failed execution and now desperately clinging to power.
Would be funny… unless you happen to be in dunedin and have just had a ruptured appendix or broken leg. “Broken leg? Sorry, just wait at home a bit. The billions? Yes well not sure where they went. You’re in pain? Sorry to hear that. How about calling your MP… he’s sifting though trash at the moment but should have his cellphone on him. Bye”
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 12:22 pm
Hospitals get overcrowded in winter!
Hold the front page.
“When National does release health policy”
Oh happy day!
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 12:28 pm
“Hospitals get overcrowded in winter’
Kinda sums up Government Health Policy
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 12:32 pm
Winter – that word sums up Labour
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 12:41 pm
Tane, Ricyjj and sonic let’s hope none of your elderly relatives need medical attention in the very near future, after all they paid their taxes throughout their working ives didn’t they? Still, I’m sure if they did need medical attention, while they waited and waited and waited, or were told to ‘go home if it’s not life-threatening’ they will reflect with pride how staunchly you defended your chosen political creed. The point I’m trying to make is that The Labour Party is supposed to be about ‘the people’ the party you leap to the defense of is supposed to be about fairness and equality and is supposed to be about looking after the average kiwi. All I see though, is hypocritical wolves circled by party-line sputing vulutres such as your good selves. Wake up and realise yo are being exploited. Use your brains for the good of the country instead of sucking up to the meritocratic assholes that call themselve ‘The Labour Party’. Oh and before you start ‘bleating’ (to use a Helenism) “National are no better.” I would agree with you. But two wrongs do not make a right. Are you so brainwashed that you wuld seek to defend Hodgeson wasting his time on made-up crap about Key rather than doing something to help the most vulnerable people in our society? Keep up the good work in the MInistry of Truth. Your country really needs you!
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 12:41 pm
Correct fredrico. The Australian hospital/medical system works well in comparison.
Vote:A similar system is not acceptable in NZ because it isn’t socialised enough for the incuments.
August 31st, 2007 at 12:42 pm
Try “incumbents”
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 12:46 pm
Perhaps Mr Hodgson could better employed doing some undercover investigation into the “consort rumors”- This undeniably is a health issue.
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 12:46 pm
My daughter lives in Australia She has Crohns disease. She receives a much better standard of care than in NZ I am not blaming our doctors and nurses.
The fault is the bastard politicans and their equally bastard civil servants and so called managers and administrators.
They spend money without any thought of the outcome. KPIs are a language they dont comphrend.
They would rather comission and wirte reports than actually ask the front line troops what they need and then set about delivering.
In health as in every otyher Gumnint activity the politicans civil servants and other hangers on are the problem not the solution
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 12:46 pm
At least with tax cuts people would have MONEY to make their own choices, something the Labour Party is afraid of. Good old Pete would rather trawl through muck than focus on his portfolio. I can see a Dunedin poster with Pete up to his arms in brown muck while hospitals in his electorate are bleeding.
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 12:54 pm
“Give me a T, an A, an X, C U T S
Gooooooooooo TAX CUTS!!!”
Smartest thing I have read from rickyj in ages.
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 1:06 pm
At the rate Labour is goign with Health no one will b able to get into a hospital bed and it will costs billions more.
And this is what the left want – they would rather be lining thier own pockets with taxpayers money than actually do what we pay them for.
And the Labour supporters cheer them on – how dumb do you have to be a leftie.
Based on this thread you must have an IQ of 0.
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 1:07 pm
“At least with tax cuts people would have MONEY to make their own choices, something the Labour Party is afraid of.”
Yeah, boy with that extra $20 a week that $20,000 chemo-therapy treatment will look like chicken feed in comparison. When are people going to learn that the answer to all the problems faced by western civilization can be summed up in two words. TAX CUTS!
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 1:12 pm
Lee C, I have plenty of experience in Health, I know what I’m talking about.
I note none of you have proposed the slightest idea for imporving health sevices, unless we take on board Tim’s laughable plan to cut taxes so everyone can go private.
Unless you Nat drones can come up with some concrete ideas excuse us for not bothering to take you at all seriously.
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 1:16 pm
Why doesn’t Labour use some of the surplus beds in the private sector to efficiently deal with the overload, like ACC does?
Vote:Because the are heartless socialist ideologues I guess. Any one got a better answer.
August 31st, 2007 at 1:18 pm
Sonic, if you think that a poster can come up with a viable Health policy in the comments section of a blog, then you are dreaming.
But quite frankly us ‘Nats’ dont have to, as far as I know none of us are politicians. However that does not mean we cannot expect those that are in power to run our health services efficientlyand comment of deficiencies within certain areas. Especially when the government of the time increases spending by 5 billion in that portfolio, you can be rest assured that we would like to see some fucken progress!
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 1:19 pm
i thought the health system in aussie was bloody brilliant when i lived there!!
i was in sydney for 5 years. i used medicare – which means ya pay 1.5% of your salary to cover it. Aussie then bought in a policy where you could go private if it was worth your while. so if you were a single guy like me, on about 100k, you could pay $1500 a year towards medicare.. or you could go private and save $800 or so..
i was lazy and just stayed with medicare heh but it was great – just walk into the doctor and not pay a cent!!
then i moved home, got the flu, went to the doc for 5 mins, got a prescription and it cost me $100!!
i love the lefts theme for the day! trying to trivialise National and suggest their only policy is tax cuts. i guess they are hoping that if they keep whining and acting like little bitches, National will release their policys too early and subsequently allow the old tired broken ass labour party to steal thier ideas. (and promise more money or whatever they can to appease the dimwitted masses)
as for cutting health expenditure.. how bout getting rid of the extra billion dollars worth of bureaucracy installed by Labour and targetting hospitals with some EFFICIENT spending! actually make a difference to peoples lives! wouldnt that be novel
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 1:27 pm
Just twist on the hook Sonic, a KL No8 Black Magic should hold your gob, an ideal punitive device for frothing socialists
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 1:27 pm
Poor Rog, my posting buddy.
Tax cuts in Aust. allow affordable private insurance plus safety net for pensioners plus a pharma subsidy list that makes chemo a Medicare provided service, the only private financing of chemo is brand new or experimental stuff not yet on the list vs NZ which seems to have all; the asprin you want.
Hope this helps with the blockage you have with tax cuts plus private insurance plus safety net for low incomes, still confused ?…look at Australia.
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 1:27 pm
with the usual thread jacking by the left, i almost forgot to comment on our health minister.
my god!!! how stupid are labour?? why would they take the guy who has one of the top portfolios in the country and get him to dig up dirt on Key?
wouldnt ya get a backbencher? some worthless list MP?
shit just keeps blowing up in labours face… isnt it glorious?
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 1:31 pm
“wouldnt ya get a backbencher? some worthless list MP? ”
They probably cant be bothered mate, too busy looking through the Situations Vacant pages.
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 1:37 pm
In reply to Sonic’s last post. This Nat drone is prepared to suggest an idea that will improve health services. GET RID OF LABOUR !!!
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 1:37 pm
There you go again, sonic ‘National are just as bad” blah blah as if that is a defense for the crap service the government is providing. So, what in your ‘plenty of experience in health’ opinion, is Pete Hodgeson doing so bloody right at the moment? I shudder to think what it would be like if he was getting it wrong! And why are you calling me a National Party drone after I outlined my political beliefs as being obviously further to the left than yours? Or is it just sooooo easy to indulge in playground-type slanging rather than growing up and getting an opinion that isn’t copied off the back of someone else’s pamphlet? You see if there is one thing that attracts me about the right side of the political spectrum, it is that you are encouraged to have an opinion you can call your own. Funnily, That is what I like about the left side too. So, let’s hear an opinion that isn’t precluded by some wanky dig at the National Party, who incidentally haven’t been in power for nearly a decade, now…
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 1:43 pm
Spotted on kiwiblog : new attack policy. Strategy, emphasise National policy on tax cuts. (they don’t have one, but say it anyway) Keep saying it regardless of whether you believe it or not. Deny any Labour strategy to emphasise Nationals tax cuts. End of memo.
You guys are going to look like bigger dicks than usual when labour announces it’s election year bribes, including tax cuts.
The health system doesn’t need cuts, it needs efficeincy. Labour have given up on health, as demonstrated by the Ministers lack of interest in his portfolio. It has been assigned to the ‘too hard’ basket and the only thing labour can think to do to make it look otherwise, is to keep throwing money at it.
Makes idiot voters think that the government are doing something.
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 1:44 pm
dime said:
wouldnt ya get a backbencher? some worthless list MP?
I doubt it. they are all busy competing for the post of “chief consort”
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 1:46 pm
OH and by the way. As a policy I would : pay doctors at decent rates pay nurses at decent rates, spend some of the tax surplus on new hospitals (rather, than say – oh, a stadium) and I would implement free health checks for every one over sixteen at least once a year. Also I would offer tax relief for manufacturers of healthy food stuffs and impose higher tax rates on manufacturers of unhealthy foods (like McDonalds) I would make a drug like oh Herceptin available on demand and I would introduce the Australian system into New Zealand. Additionally I would cut out large tranches of the buereaucrats that currently infest the health service and I would make sure that any Minister of Health would get his ass kicked out of the cabinet if he didn’t do what the tax-payers pay him to do.
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 1:47 pm
Yes, our health system is failing many people.
Vote:What would National do if they win the next election to remedy this?
I received a lovely glossy pamphlet in the mail yesterday from the National Party which had a lot of lovely sounding words.
“National believes a strong economy is the essential foundation for the world-class health, education and public services New Zealanders deserve”
I don’t think many many people would disagree with that?
But how are they going to achieve this?
Tax cuts have been mentioned… but what policies do they have that directly concern Health?
August 31st, 2007 at 1:51 pm
Which party is offering to de-socialise medicine, or at the very least recognise the problems of zero prices? Whoever they are, I’ll vote for them.
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 1:56 pm
“There you go again, sonic ‘National are just as bad”
Just a tip, when using quotes try and use words I actually wrote?
“why are you calling me a National Party drone”
Why do you think I was referring to you?
Still guys thanks for proving my point. You alternative health policy seems to be a mix of slash and burn, mass sackings and privatisation. (Part from Lee who thinks you can solve a seasonal bed shortage through healthy eating)
Thats going to be a popular policy.
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 1:56 pm
Oh apart from Ben, who’se health policy seems to be
‘make the b*stards pay”
Thats a vote winner!
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 2:08 pm
Well, they’d get my vote, so that’s one.
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 2:08 pm
is “tax cuts” the new “brethren”?
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 2:08 pm
Here’s an idea.
Vote:To escape being trapped forever in a low quality socialised health system in NZ, I believe those generous Aussies would lend some Medicare execs, some MBF or HCF execs and a couple of Treasury blokes who would set up and run for a couple of years an Aussie style system.
Gradually easing the local health bureaucrats back in after they had been de-programmed should be possible.
August 31st, 2007 at 2:10 pm
Imagine that. Sonic goes all the way to adulthood, presumably, never having heard such things as “there’s no such thing as a free lunch”, “money doesn’t grow on trees”
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 2:10 pm
Ben – by de-socialise healthcare/medicine do you mean that you would like NZ to be like USA system?
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 2:24 pm
Do you think Shout above the noise will reach senility never having heard such things as “health systems cost money” and “cuts cost lives”?
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 2:29 pm
correct – cuts don’t cost lives.
it’s massive wastage and failing to ensure resources are applied to actual needs that costs lives.
labour should know. they’ve mastered health-sector wastage.
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 2:31 pm
“cuts cost lives”?
LMAO – oh dear. Sonic, the billions in extra spending has still resulted in lost lives every day. You would continue to throw money at it and hope?
The system needs a major re-vamp. Wake up.
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 2:31 pm
“Imagine that. Sonic goes all the way to adulthood, presumably, never having heard such things as “there’s no such thing as a free lunch”, “money doesn’t grow on trees””
You left out the fact we live in a finite world. Only so many people can receive health care. So the real argument here should be how do we ration health care?
Should we decide on who has the most money or the most need?
Personally I don’t want to live in a society were a extremely wealthy person with a slight spain walks into a hospital past a poor person in agony with a broken bone and the wealthy person gets treated first.
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 2:38 pm
No wonder you only need half a brain to be in politics the people who operate in this environment and even comment on such are certifiable. why don’t you get a life. as children you should be smacked for the language and the tantrums. Oh! Sorry not PC is it.
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 2:40 pm
A MAN PERSUADED AGAINST HIS WILL IS OF THE SAME OPINION STILL
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 2:50 pm
Craig, yes I’d continue to increase health spending above it’s current level.
I’d also like to see reforms in the education of medical staff (It’s insane that senior nursing staff cannot progress their careers without leaving the wards, or that highly skilled paramedics can not enter medical school and become doctors)
Finally we have to continue to improve community care and GP training so to take the pressure off of overworked ECC departments.
There are lots of things that need to be done, but they all cost money guys.
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 3:34 pm
Newsflash:
If you are sick in Dunedin and you need hospital care, you will get hospital care. At the moment it is busy and it is suggested that IF YOU DON’T NEED URGENT CARE, it is a good idea to wait a while. The problem is that a lot of hospital resources are taken up by people who don’t really need to be there. If you have the flu (and no a cold is not the same as the flu) and you are generally a healthy adult, get rest and drink plenty of fluids. You generally don’t need a hospital.
then i moved home, got the flu, went to the doc for 5 mins, got a prescription and it cost me $100!!
Either you are lying, or you need to find a new doctor. You choose.
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 3:35 pm
[DPF: This post has been deleted as far too long and rambling and off topic. You will be blocked if you continue like this]
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 3:39 pm
Sonic highlights the banality of current left leaning health policy.
his policy
1. increase health spending…………….been done, system worse.
2. “reforms’ to allow nurses to progress without leaving wards and paramedics to enter med school…………………sorry mate they can already do this
3. “improve community care and GP training”………………WTF, our gp’s are some of the most highly trained in the western world.
I can imagine the millions spent on committees to research/trial these proposals and then find they already exist………in the mean time another patient has their hip replacement cancelled.
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 3:52 pm
Just an aside, but isn’t it interesting that at the same time as those pinkos supposedly running the country are calling for an email/talkback campaign against Mike Moore, the number of threadjackings by leftie (well, not really leftie, more fascist) bootlickers increases.
Vote:Have H1/H2 ordered attacks on right wing bloggers now, because the level of nastiness from the Left on this blog seems to have ratcheted up a notch or two recently.
I just hope the fellow travellers don’t work for Government depts, as I hate to see my taxes wasted.
August 31st, 2007 at 4:02 pm
Shane I have been closely following the Stiassny/Fardell/Semier matter and the more that is revealed the murkier the picture becomes.
The walkout by the 3 Vector directors plus the resignation of the CFO closely followed by the CEO and the story around Auckland that no reputable professional director wanted a bar of the job and the long time it took to get replacements in what should have been a straight forward assignment all pointed to Stiassny.
There is also the problem of 2 degrees of separation in NZ business legal and judical life and the reluctance of the participants to abide by the conventions surround ing conflicts of interest. Still given the pollies lead in this matter why should we be surprised.
However the evidence suggests that Semier may not be just a disaffected individual and that there is much more than meets the eye as regards the very litigious Michal Stiassny
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 4:06 pm
Shane It would appear DPF has taken your posts down and considering the subject matter and the individuals involved this was probably a wise move .I dont think my post will exact litigation from the said Mr Stiassny but them givern his past record one would never be sure.
Hes served more papers than I have had hot dinners
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 4:19 pm
pete import a few african witch doctors to cure our sick and when they are not needed , they could be taxi drivers
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 4:53 pm
Sonic, maybe you should go back to Scotland and fix your health service there?
You can start by re-allowing staff to eat their sandwiches at lunchtime, and to allow them to use the vending machines during Ramadan.
http://news.scotsman.com/edinburgh.cfm?id=1275192007
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 5:13 pm
Sonic and Roger dumb,
Regarding cost of essential services provided by government.
Do you know what the letters “PPP” stand for and what purpose do they stand for.
If you have the courage to address that question, do you have the intellect to see the application in New Zealand.
If you get this far, can you indicate where in the World PPP is up and running successfully, AND FOR HOW LONG, has this activity been working.
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 5:47 pm
Liarbour have no interest in fixing health. How many that work in health are union members ( thousands ). These people are seen as nothing more than cash cows for Dear Leader and her corrupt mates. Why do we need one shinny arse for every hospital bed?. I will tell you, so the thieving fucking union leaders can grease the palms of their political masters and then the top union lackeys are keep in comfort, corrupt bastards.
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 5:48 pm
The state of healthcare in a given country is often a function of the level of general wealth in that country. Australia is able to deliver a higher quality of health care despite many consecutive years of tax cuts precisely because its economy is growing at a faster rate than NZ’s and so the net wealth created in Australia has resulted in Australians enjoying an average standard of living approaching 40% higher than NZ.
Labour have poured billions into health (as has Labour in Britain) but because it is so ideologically wedded to the public sector being the sole deliverer of services and is so beholden to state sector unions, the increase in spending has not been able to deliver demonstrably better health outcomes because of the huge drag effect of the ballooning health bureaucracy. The Australian government (of both political hues I might add) seems less wedded to the purity of 100% state sector delivery and I’d imagine a lower bureaucrat to patient ratio than NZ.
The same is true in the US. US hospitals can offer the most cutting edge health care in the world to those who are insured. Before we hear the usual bleats about the 40 odd million uninsured, it must be pointed out that a good percentage of the uninsured do so by choice not financial necessity (ie young healthy males who perceive little benefit from insurance) or people between jobs etc. There is free hospital care available to anyone uninsured from the county hospitals and the quality at them is not much below the normal standard of NZ hospitals under the socialised medicine model.
Massachusetts instituted a successful reform that has meant all state residents are now covered. The reforms have greatly reduced the insurers premiums as regulatory costs have been reduced. A centralised state run database acts as a clearing house for the best private sector insurers policies enabling MA citizens to buy policies individually at the same price as large corporate plans. Employers pay a small levy and this is used to subsidize health insurance for the very poor who can’t afford it. Net result – all MA citizens are now covered but under a more efficient private sector model as opposed to the single state user system in NZ. This was former governor Mitt Romney’s brianchild passed by the overwhelmingly Democrat MA state House and Senate and a scheme he wants to introduce nationwide if he was ever elected President.
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 5:51 pm
Because a more efficient private health care sector in Massachusetts now covers all citizens health care, the net cost saving to the MA taxpayers under this scheme has been in the order of over $300 million (population 6 million) because the county hospitals are now no longer burdened with the cost of treating the uninsured.
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 6:12 pm
KIA….exactly!!!!!!!!!!!
Its a shame that it will take another generation to realize the logical conclusion of how healthcare should be funded. in the meantime we are subject to destructive leftist posturing for electoral gain
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 6:26 pm
Tina said:
and kiwi in america said:
I’m not sure on what you base your claims folks, but as someone who has to use the Australian medical system I can assure you it’s no better than New Zealand’s.
With the onset of winter flu there are more than 100 people stacked up in ambulances and corridors waiting for beds in my local hospital. Ambulance “ramping” (treating or maintaining patients in ambulances parked outside the hospital) has been rife for years, as has “diversion” whereby an ambulance is simply told “no room at the inn, try the next hospital”.
Meanwhile when you do get in the overworked clinical staff are likely to make a mess of your procedure, as evidenced by the fact that more patients are suing public hospitals for botched surgery.
But all is well, because the Health Minister has hired a former public servant as a $275 an hour consultant to fix it. A public servant whom the former Premier paid a great deal of money to get him to leave the public service, such was the confidence in his abilities. Nothing to do, I’m sure, with the fact that he’s a mate of the Health Minister – as is the head of the department, who’s on $250,000+ but can’t afford a taxi home and thus is now being chauffered at our expense after losing his licence for DUI.
And this is despite the fact that, as you correctly note, the economy here makes NZ’s look sick, with the state in which I reside having resources equal to the value of the entire GDP of a small country and a budget surplus to match.
So how is this mess possible? The fact that health is primarily a state responsibility, and that all the State goverments are Labor, may well have a bearing, but I couldn’t possibly comment.
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 6:41 pm
I really get sick of – I hate to say it – the stupidity of the lefties always harping on about National and taxes. It seems totally beyond their comprehension that just throwing money at something will help things.
For example, under National, they were spending about 6 Bil on health and the waiting list was 100,000. Under Labour, they are spending over 10Bil on health and the waiting list figures have gone to 180,000 – almost doubled. That was the last figure given by Annette King prior to the last election.
In other words, you increase health spending by 4Bil a year but the only achievement is to double the waiting list.
For some reason Rickyjj thinks this is a good idea. He is a typical socialist who places his ideology above human life. It would be laughable if it wasn’t so pathetic and heartless.
The reason why Hodgson and Labour isn’t doing anything about it is because they simply don’t know what to do. In their naivety they thought throwing bucketloads of money would fix it, and it just made it worse. We now have 12,000 hospital managers, one for every bed. Roger, Ricky, Sonic and the like are very heartless to place trying to score a point above the lives of many 000′s of people living in misery.
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 7:10 pm
I think someone’s cruising for a ban.
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 7:44 pm
Shut up Shane.
I agree Hodgson should do something about the health system.
now would everyone stop shouting at each other and tell me how. I’m living in Vancouver at the moment and they have a mix of the Kiwi system but with a massive dose of the US system, and the papers are full of the same stories (I can post egs if you like). The Canadian system is a right freaking mess. And do we mention how many people in the US don’t have anywhere near the access to health care we do in NZ.
Simple reality is that if one of the functions of Govt is to provide for the education, health and safety of it’s people it has to spend, the question is to what level and how is it done, and I haven’t heard one person Left or Right with an answer. Probably because there isn’t a right answer.
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 7:47 pm
Shane – your point is?
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 7:52 pm
Labour thunder triumphantly in the House how much extra they have invested in the health system – $5 billion over 8 years. However waiting times have increased, waiting list numbers continue to increase, despite “creative accounting” to “manage” numbers (I speak from experience, having worked in that very area!), hospitals are overcrowded and understaffed. I question whether the government or its advisors have the methodology to accurately measure any benefits to patients from the extra spending – I think not!
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 8:54 pm
Be open minded. Watch “sicko”. Check out France. Shane – you copying and pasting is rather annoying – you know scrolling all the way down. Why don’t you keep this stuff to your own blog.
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 10:09 pm
sonic says: ‘That’s going to be a vote winner’ and ‘That’s going to be a popular policy’ There, I quoted you as per what you said. The point I was hoping to make was that partisan policies simply trotted out (no pun intended) because it supports your party line falls short of actually addressing the real issues that face us and does not help the population. (remeber them?) I think you missed the point. Perhaps it was too subtle, or, perhaps (again as I may have implied) contrary to your parrot (sorry for an instant I typed that ‘parrot’ as an anagram of ‘party’) line. But as you have implied, sonic, you prefer to gauge an initiative according to whether it’s ‘popular policy’ and a ‘vote winner’. Screw the people, eh? As long as you can feel like you won the debate with some clever word-play. As for my sensitivity about being a ‘National Party drone’ You really are so deluded that you think to accuse someone of being a National Party supporter is enough to shut them up? Like my opinion is less valid than yours because you somehow inhabit a superior space? What ever happened to ‘I may not agree with waht yo say, but will defend to the death your right to say it?” Christ, is this soviet Russia? Are the thought police going to trace me, or something? As per your attitude towards ‘That’s going to be a vote winner’ and ‘That’s going to be a popular policy’ I think it was George Bernard Shaw who asked a lady if she would sleep with him for a thousand guineas. She said she might. Then he said, “Wwould you sleep with me for one guinea? She replied: ‘What do you think I am?” Bernard-Shaw replied: “We’ve already established what you are, I’m simply trying to establish your price.” Oh sorry, did I break the unwritten rule of semantics by accidentally misquoting you for the purposes of satire. I do apologise. You fascist wanker.
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 10:14 pm
Ps sorry if I called you a wanker
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 10:30 pm
sonic: PPS I have though about what I wrote and would like to apologise unreservedly for my out-burst. It was at best ignoble, and at worst, tawdry, to engage in such petty name calling. You are entitled to your own opinion, as indeed I am entitled to mine, that is what democracy is all about. Let’s both share a toast: “To the freedom to state your opinion regardless of who it might offend!” That’s it, you put the glass to your lips… now tip it… drink…. go on, you know you want to…….remember it’s for freedom of expression. There. Now swallow. That wasn’t too hard now, was it?
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 10:33 pm
This will be on for at least twelve hours because sonic won’t clock onto his revered job at the Labour Party Ministry of Truth till the morning. (perhaps not till Monday Morning) Haha, sonic swallows, everyone!
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 11:41 pm
Fuck me, Lee. You’re a one person debate!
Vote:August 31st, 2007 at 11:58 pm
Let’s have a look at what DPF’s saying. The fairly clear implication is that because Hodgson is involved with Labour’s decision to question Key’s credibility, he isn’t managing his portfolio. DPF knows better than most that decisions about strategy don’t take all of any politician’s time. This suggests that he’s being deliberately disingenuous.
Secondly, what about the claims that National’s only policy is to cut taxes. This zero policy state is defended by commenters on this blog on the basis that Labour will steal National’s policies. But who’s been adopting policy positions first suggested by their opposition? Sure, Labour adopted National’s suggested position on taxation of charitable donations. However, National has been criticised on this blog by its allies for being “Labour-lite” – taking a position that is not easily distiguished from Labour’s. Of course, Labour would never be allowed to get away with a lack of policy – they have to run the country.
National seem to want to win the upcoming election on two platforms:
1. We have a leader that you like and who isn’t Helen Clark
2. We will give you tax cuts
Sure, there’ll be some policy around the fringes, but I wouldn’t expect it to play a major part in National’s election campaign.
So back to the point of the post. Why post this DPF? I’ve said it before, so I’m sorry if I sound like a broken record, but… This used to be a blog where commenters from both sides of the political spectrum debated the ideas with at least a modicum of respect. Now, it’s just a place where anyone who dissents gets abused. What was that criticism of Helen Clark again?
I just don’t see any point of this post other than to encourage more bile. No-one has ever suggested that the health system is perfect. In fact, I think that the regular response to opposition questions about health finishes with “but there is always room for improvement” or something to that effect. DPF knows that there are hundreds of people working on the problem (both centrally, and in DHBs), and that the answer is not as simple as the Minister “[doing] something about [it]“.
Vote:September 1st, 2007 at 12:10 am
Lol Lee. Most of what you say will be lost on sonic anyhow (but it was entertaining to read). I mean, here’s a guy who admonishes you for not quoting him precisely:
But then, not a minute later he offers this to Ben:
He’s a bit inconsistent like that, is our wee Scotsman.
Vote:September 1st, 2007 at 7:21 am
Liked weizguy’s contribution though. It was actually a contribution, however, I have a feeling that New Zealand is at a crossroads right now. That is what worries me. I seriously fear that the next year or so will be a telling schism and people will look back and sugget that this is where we either recued ourselves, or got it wrong.
Vote:September 1st, 2007 at 8:07 am
Sorry but this debate is valid and the “nothing to see hear, move on” approach advocated by weizguy is symptomatic of the disease afflicting health policy in NZ.
Here is a list of things Hodgson should be doing rather than muckracking.
Deal directly with the various groups in pay disputes.
Cull the vast swathes of administration in our DHBs and hospitals
Provide incentives for health workers to stay in the public health service
Acknowledge that the public health service does no have the capacity to provide a comprehensive health service and engage the private sector in providing services
The debate is that even though the above suggestions make sense and should be considered, Labour is ideologically opposed to them and the health of the nation is compromised as a result. this government is morally bankrupt if it allows such a failed method of healthcare delivery to continue.
As for National, I can understand the electoral benefit in not releasing policy at the moment. Labour will shriek hysterically at any attempt to engage the private sector as “privatisation” and health cuts!! Once more using hyperbole and fear to secure votes.
Having said that I wish national would put forward a new health policy, one that addresses the limits of publically funded healthcare. They can look to australia for this. Somehow i think i will be disappointed.
Vote:September 1st, 2007 at 10:29 am
frederico
Good to see an attempt to suggest alternatives. However, I’d appreciate it if you didn’t misrepresent my post. In no way have I suggested that there is “nothing to see here, move on”. As I pointed out, there is plenty of room for improvement. Your suggestions may or may not solve the problems, but the important thing to note is that you’ve jumped on DPF’s implication that if Hodgson has done something during the week, he can’t have done anything else. Ministers have portfolios (and other duties) and they spread their time between them.
I agree that a debate about the best way to provide healthcare is useful. I don’t agree that this post (or the resulting flame-war) achieves this.
Oh, and I’d love to see the Nats release a detailed health policy. Preferably, far enough out from the election for it to be compared with current Government policy. I think the public deserves to know what either major party plans to do.
Vote:September 1st, 2007 at 11:31 am
Sorry weizguy, i didn’t mean to represent you. But “nothing to see hear, move on”, to me reflects the policy of the current government.
For 8 years we have had the same policy without the real problem being addressed. We are constantly told how wonderful the government has been in the management of health care but the stats and reality are very different.
The reality is we have a health service in crisis and a minister of health who is turning his head the other way. He pretends that the failed policies of the past 8 years are working. This is the hight of dishonesty.
People are right to question a minister in charge of a failing health policy who admits to spending hours searching for dirt on Key rather than focus on his primary responsibility.
Reading through this whole thread there have been many suggestions on what could be done differently and what is being done wrong. These are met with shrill screams of disgust from left leaning commentators as “far right health cuts”. This is not constructive.
I don’t accept that “100s of beauracrats working on the problem” will provide anything constructive. They haven’t in the past and they won’t in the future.
I genuinely believe there is a better way. I have experienced it. It is the australian model. It is a crime that this government wont entertain such policies because of its entrenched dogma and political agenda.
Vote: