NZ First prefers Labour

October 28th, 2007 at 3:49 pm by David Farrar

Just as I have always regarded the Maori Party as ideologically closer to Labour, I think much the same of NZ First – and Ron Mark has confirmed this.  On Agenda today he said:

Labour’s probably the closest now to our economic policy than they’ve ever been

Now there is more to working together than economic policy, but that is pretty core.

It will be very interesting to see what policy NZ First adopts going into 2008.  Will it be to give first preference to the largest party again? Will it want coalition (Ron Mark indicated a preference for that) and on what terms?

To ensure a change of Government needs more than National getting more votes than Labour.  It requires National/ACT/United Future to get more votes than Labour/Progressive/Greens/Maori Party/NZ First. Because I suspect in a bidding contest, Labour will be more willing to do whatever it takes for a 4th term.  Student allowances for all Maori students – fine. An extra $20 a week for pensioners – fine. 

And let’s not forget what a huge advantage the Electoral Finance Bill will be to the Government, if passed.  The Government advertising campaigns will blossom, as everyone is restricted.

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57 Responses to “NZ First prefers Labour”

  1. Michaels (1,317 comments) says:

    With those sorts of numbers, a National led government looks nigh but impossible, even with the way the polls have been running. So National will need to bring some HUGE sweetners out of the closet to win comfortably. I don’t understand why they won’t say we will have a referendum on MMP. I am yet to meet one person that likes it…. Obviously I don’t have slimey green friends. And MMP obviously does nothing for National. And god forbid if I have to go through another 3 years of Winnie shouting to National and Act, “So tell me one thing you’ve achieved in the last however fucking many years it will be!!!”

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  2. GNZ (228 comments) says:

    So Labour will gets the extra 0 seats offered by winston and his party.
    Meanwhile winston will take about 3% of voters out of play via the 5% threshold.

    Having said that you still need to get those votes because maori party will probably get an overhang.

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  3. The Natural Party of opposition (75 comments) says:

    Kia ora, Michael,
    It seems if the political party that you support haven’t got the policies that will enable it to get elected. Tthe answer is I feel, not to change the system of counting votes but to change your policies.
    And if I may be so bold calling people who’s views differ from yours slimy
    doesn’t help your argument

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  4. davidn (28 comments) says:

    This could also have the effect of pushing more support towards National, or at the very least away from Labour and its allies.

    I have been a left-wing voter for many years, but as a self-confessed bleeding-heart “liberal”, to me the process (and getting people to take part) is more important than the result. This naked grab for sustained power being taken by Labour annoys me to the point where I may well not even vote for my local (Labour) MP (who has been quite competent). I know that a number of my friends have said so to the Labour MPs they know, but are being “lectured” about the evils of the Exclusive Brethren. Talk about using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut! The democratic process should be the most central part of ANY left-wing policy, but they are showing that they care more about power than principle. The comparable party in Canada (the Liberal party) showed the same behaviour and were thrown out by the voters. I suspect that unless Labour change their ways, the same will happen here.

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  5. Michaels (1,317 comments) says:

    TNPOO (hmmm, interesting how that came out)…
    If one party gets more votes than any other, isn’t that a majority from the country?? In other words, they have the policies that most of the voters want. Just because a party with lesser votes can pull other parties that only just break the 5%, do you really believe they should hold the power. Winston First, nor the Greens won a seat, yet get to make so many decisions. I just think it is wrong. And on the Greens, I have one policy with them, if they support something, it’s just got to be wrong. They should go back to tree hugging and stay out of trying to run the country.

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  6. Reg (544 comments) says:

    So the simple message to get out to the elderly conservative constituency that has historically voted for Winston’s Party is this:
    A vote for NZF is a vote for Helen Clark, social engineering, political correctness, anti-americanism, anti- traditional values, and contempt for grassroots democracy.
    Notwithstanding Peters’ political ability IMHO he dog tucker this time.
    By accepting the “baubles” from the socialists and loosing his Electoral stronghold in Taraunga he has effectively consigned himself to the dust bin of history.
    Ta ta Winnie

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  7. The Natural Party of opposition (75 comments) says:

    Davidn
    Do you think the average Joe B is at all bothered by The EFB. I think not.
    Thats not to say that is the greatest bit of legislation out there, but it will not impact Lab vote too much I suspect.
    And as for caring more for power over principle. have you read the ”
    Hollow man”?

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  8. Ross Nixon (599 comments) says:

    The Government advertising campaigns will blossom, as everyone is restricted.

    If the EFB passes, ignore the restriction. When National wins they can pass retrospective legislation and compensate anyone who was fined or whatever.

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  9. davidn (28 comments) says:

    Yes, TNPOO (nice acronym), I do think Joe Bloggs will care, as more and more examples of the absurdity of the EFB come out. AND let’s not forget the headlines that say that just about every non-political group out there is opposed, with some very compelling arguments. I think it WILL be an issue, but just one of many that will likely go against Labour unless they change how they are behaving.

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  10. radvad (620 comments) says:

    All National have to do from now on is every time they refer to Winnie or, more likely, have to respond to his looney comments, call him Winstone “no baubles” Peters.

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  11. Russell Brown (403 comments) says:

    That’s a very interesting comment from Mark.

    And if the new Roy Morgan poll — which puts Labour + Green marginally ahead of National + Act — isn’t just an aberration, 2008 is going to be an interesting year for the minor parties.

    OTOH, there’s this statement from the Maori Party AGM …

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0710/S00530.htm

    They appear to be accusing the Labour-led government of actually staging the anti-terror police operation as an attack on all Maori. Guess Tariana still doesn’t have that chip off her shoulder. But will National really want to deal with them?

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  12. pdm (842 comments) says:

    One thing National need to do is get Bob Clarkson to stand again in Tauranga. He must be `like a breath of fresh air’ in the elctorate after Winston. If he stands again surely there is no chance of Winston being game enough to stand against him – let alone beat him – therefore goodbye and good riddance NZFirst.

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  13. Andrew W (1,629 comments) says:

    “Labour will be more willing to do whatever it takes for a 4th term. Student allowances for all Maori students – fine. An extra $20 a week for pensioners – fine.”

    20 years ago only a minority of NZers would have been susceptable to such bribery, now most are, as I’ve said, we’re past a tipping point. to win all a party needs is to promise hand outs, at this rate, with the help of the EFB, NZ should be a communist state by about 2020.

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  14. The Natural Party of opposition (75 comments) says:

    PDM
    I agree
    And also if Lab supporters in Epsom vote National( E vote )…. Bye Bye Act

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  15. baxter (893 comments) says:

    I’ve no doubt Peters, Woolerton , Mark and co will only go with National as a last resort. Peter Brown on the other hand seems less supportive of Liabour and warned the conference they could lose support if they failed to include supporting National on an equal basis. He seems to have made several statements which could be seen in this light, but is pretty much a lone star in this respect.. I think next time the Greens will decide the future goverment as the disaffected Liabour votes go to them, and all the youngsters sucked i n by the global warming hysteria and propaganda join them… Winston may foresee this and stitch up a supernumary deal with Klark to preserve his baubles a la Jim Anderton.

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  16. helmet (807 comments) says:

    Well to be fair, Labour’s economic policy is more and more beginning to resemble national’s as well, so no surprise that Mark’s picked up on a shift to the right.

    Whatever happens next election, I really really really hope that NZ1 disappears. They’re a useless waste of space and votes. Kind of a living monument to the stupidity of the elderly. There’s a minimum voting age, maybe they should have a maximum too?

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  17. James W (277 comments) says:

    The Natural Party of opposition,

    “And also if Lab supporters in Epsom vote National( E vote )…. Bye Bye Act”

    Unlikely. In 2005 both Helen Clark and candidate Stuart Nash told people to vote for Worth, and Rodney still managed to comfortably take the seat. Given Act’s new approach in dealing with Labour, I can’t see Helen Clark making the same plea to Labour supporters in Epsom.

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  18. The Natural Party of opposition (75 comments) says:

    James W
    I bow to your greater knowledge

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  19. Max Call (212 comments) says:

    pdm Says:
    October 28th, 2007 at 5:19 pm
    “One thing National need to do is get Bob Clarkson to stand again in Tauranga. He must be `like a breath of fresh air’ in the elctorate after Winston.”

    Actually, as someone who lives in Tga – NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

    (Not that I want Winnie back either)

    Bob the builder – what have you done for one of the fastest growing cities in NZ (not for yourself!!! (selling Baypark to ratepayers WHITE ELEPHANT) BUT for us!!!)

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  20. Adolf Fiinkensein (2,668 comments) says:

    Russell Brown, you bet National will want to deal with them and so they should. After all, Labour deals with the Greens, you know, those sons and daughters of Baader Meinhopf. (sp?)

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  21. Graeme Edgeler (3,216 comments) says:

    It’s possible you’re reading too much into this DPF.

    McCully could come out and say: “Labour’s probably the closest now to our foreign policy than they’ve ever been” and it wouldn’t mean a vote for National is a vote for Labour.

    That Labour is closer to NZF than they’ve been before does not preclude National also being closer to NZF than they’ve been before…

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  22. Craig Ranapia (1,912 comments) says:

    That’s a very interesting comment from Mark.

    The whole interview was ‘interesting’ – in the Chinese curse sense. This is really sounding awfully familiar: Make a statement, change it a few weeks later, deny you ever held position A in the first place, and the bemused journalist playing the tape to your is a lying, retarded terrorist who hates Winston because he’s beautiful.

    And was I the only one who found Mark getting rather evasive — it’s odd how many times he wasn’t in the room, doesn’t know his own party’s positions on an issue, or we’re just going to have to wait until THE BOSS reveals all.

    Oy… I feel sorry for whoever is going to have to keep these clowns in the tent.

    They appear to be accusing the Labour-led government of actually staging the anti-terror police operation as an attack on all Maori. Guess Tariana still doesn’t have that chip off her shoulder. But will National really want to deal with them?

    Probably not, but I don’t expect the Maori Party would be the first cab off the rank with Labour either. But the simple reality is that whoever is the largest party after the next election will have to – and the Maori Party is also going to have to be very careful not to overplay their hand.

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  23. Richard (130 comments) says:

    “20 years ago only a minority of NZers would have been susceptable to such bribery, now most are, as I’ve said, we’re past a tipping point. to win all a party needs is to promise hand outs, at this rate, with the help of the EFB, NZ should be a communist state by about 2020.”

    I think you’re remebering a golden age that never existed. Muldoon was possibly NZs greatest expert in buying votes and pork barrelling has been around as long as there’s been voting.

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  24. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    “Well to be fair, Labour’s economic policy is more and more beginning to resemble national’s as well, so no surprise that Mark’s picked up on a shift to the right”

    I’d say if you’re talking about a trend over the last 30 years you’re right – but if you’re talking the last 5 years Labour has progressively introduced policies that take the country further left – i.e. WFF, 20 hours free, cheaper doctors visits, 4 weeks annual leave in 2008. So Mark’s comments could be read as saying ‘in going further left Labour is moving towards NZ1″.

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  25. Andrew W (1,629 comments) says:

    pork barreling is a term that’s not normally appied in NZ politics with good reason as it normally refers to buying constituences through awarding government contracts to businesses in those constituencies, our electoral system and the way politcs is practised (our representatives are forced to tow the party line rather than needing to be bought to do so). The difference between now and 20 years ago is that now most NZers are on benefits and think of them as a right.

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  26. Michaels (1,317 comments) says:

    Oh lets be honest…. Winston Firsts policies would be close to anybodys if he can just keep his baubles…. from a man I once respected (years ago) he is in my eyes now a joke. Sadly, as a lawyer, he has a way with words and can suck in many people.

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  27. Andrew W (1,629 comments) says:

    Face reality people, if National were to push true free market policies, things like user pays, they would get thrashed at election time, even suggesting such a thing is now recognised as electral suicide, if National wins, it will be as Labour lite.

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  28. Peak Oil Conspiracy (2,758 comments) says:

    AndrewW:

    Face reality people, if National were to push true free market policies, things like user pays, they would get thrashed at election time, even suggesting such a thing is now recognised as electral suicide, if National wins, it will be as Labour lite.

    Hole in one. This is precisely the point I keep making to Phillip JohnRoger Nome. His usual response is one variation or another of “reality has a left-wing bias”.

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  29. john (478 comments) says:

    Do you lot ever think about or read what you post ,winston SNAKE OIL SALESMAN peters , ,Why do we bothering commenting on used by SHIT, new zealand garbage, winstons,party????

    my dogs wouldnt piss on his OLD corpse,dont open your mouth winston opps open it ZAKs piss could stop your hair lose

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  30. GerryandthePM (328 comments) says:

    Anyone who watches or listens to Parliament would surely have noticed how anti-National NZF has been for some time . Peters and Woolerton never miss an opportunity to slag National. Ron Mark today was really just revealing his Labour roots. With the Labour Ministers falling over, Mark’s coalition ambitions will see him in Cabinet with Defence and Police, not an unattractive proposition – certainly more acceptable, to most across the spectrum, than Peter’s ham-fisted charade in Foreign Affairs. Mark looked unlikely to want to be aligned with National. He expressed major distrust. Expect some hardball if National gets anywhere near sniffing power and needs NZF. National needs to wake up.

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  31. Michaels (1,317 comments) says:

    On a slightly different note…. Was H1 in England last nite???? Just wondering as she’s fucked every other sporting opportunity this year. Obviously it wasn’t Trev this time…… no no… paddling his own war canoe!!

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  32. john (478 comments) says:

    winston SNAKE OIL SALESMAN peters a fucken useless man ,a waste of space NOW on the Polictical scene, a shitter in the past and a wanker now possibly in the furture

    [DPF - 20 demerits. Comments which are simply abuse are unhelpful]

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  33. vto (1,128 comments) says:

    ha ha did someone above suggest there has been user pays in the recent past? I have never seen it – all I have seen is user pays AND taxpayer pays all at once rolled together in a big mangled smelly and expensive ball.

    re the topic – will winston peters this coming election finally not get re-elected? Anyone prepared to put money on it?

    unfortunately for nzkind we will have to put up with winston bjeilke-peterson until he takes his last breath methinks.

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  34. vto (1,128 comments) says:

    and david benson-pop. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha – when you can only choose between laughing and crying you may as well laugh.

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  35. Richard (130 comments) says:

    pork barreling is a term that’s not normally appied in NZ politics with good reason as it normally refers to buying constituences through awarding government contracts to businesses in those constituencies, our electoral system and the way politcs is practised (our representatives are forced to tow the party line rather than needing to be bought to do so).

    Actually it’s a generic term throughout western democracies. You’re applying the standard American definition to it. NZ has a virtually official definition which is general – page of 177 of the Speaker’s Rulings.

    The difference between now and 20 years ago is that now most NZers are on benefits and think of them as a right.

    Prior to the 1991 abolition of the Family Benefit the proportion of families on benefits was almost certainly more than half. I’d love to see some evidence that there’s been a significant change in attitudes towards the right to free money. I’d guess (which is no doubt the basis for your assertions) that views towards the right to free education and health care have probably declined.

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  36. Andrew W (1,629 comments) says:

    Richard, tax revenue as a % of GDP has been steadily rising since at least the 1920 when it was about 12%, the scope of benefits has also expanded throughout this century, Rogernomics saw this trend briefly interupted, but consider; the introduction of Rogernomics was a deception of the electorate, Labour won the ’84 election but the policies they brought in were not labour policies, few if any, in Labour today would condone the actions of Douglas & Co, and for the majority of NZer’s today Douglas is a virtual pariah, do you recall the controversy over his knighthood?

    Since then the trend has been firmly re-established, and unless you think we are likely to see a similar usurping of the electors will, or similar dramatic – revolutionary – change in the economic/political landscape, the trend towards bigger government and greater centralisation will continue because most voters are happy to see it do so.

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  37. Andrew W (1,629 comments) says:

    I should add that after the Douglas deception, National, with Ruth at the financial helm, was able to continue the Douglas agenda in part as a result of the loss of trust the electorate had in Labour.

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  38. Rex Widerstrom (5,124 comments) says:

    Craig Ranapia noted:

    And was I the only one who found Mark getting rather evasive — it’s odd how many times he wasn’t in the room, doesn’t know his own party’s positions on an issue, or we’re just going to have to wait until THE BOSS reveals all.

    I’ve no doubt Mark is genuinely kept in the dark about some of Winston’s policies (primarily because Winston hasn’t been cornered on the topic yet, at which time – assuming he’s true to form – he’ll delegate an advisor to “make something up”).

    But the remainder of the vagueness could well be due to the fact that the man’s a blockhead who, even if he were given the colouring book version, wouldn’t understand it let alone be capable of interpreting it in an interview situation.

    Love the way he’s positioning himself as Winston’s heir apparent though. If the Party ever had a chance of survival post-Winston then Colonel Bloodnock will neatly nail it.

    Meanwhile GerryandthePM comments:

    Anyone who watches or listens to Parliament would surely have noticed… Peters and Woolerton never miss an opportunity to slag National.

    Less about policy and more about old rsentments, methinks, particularly in the latter case. Pre-Winston, Woolerton had long tried to rise to the exalted position in National he thought he was due, but that party followed the Peter Principle and kept him at the level of his incompetence. Unfortunately the Peters Principle seems to be to surround yourself with venal incompetents, then proceed to follow their advice. And then wonder why your standing in the eyes of many people who used to admire you (cf Michaels above) is now lower than something on the sole of their shoe.

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  39. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    Just read Winston’s election manifesto in the herald:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10472673

    Jeez – this is from our Minister of Foreign affairs. What an irresponsible self-seeking snake-in-the-grass.

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  40. Craig Ranapia (1,912 comments) says:

    Lee:

    Oy and vey… while I’ve very little time for the Maori Party, it’s just a little rich listening to Winston First pontificate on the subject of ‘dangerous separatism’ – not from a man who has pandered to every immigrant-bashing red-and-brown neck he can find.

    Also deliciously amusing to read him opining that critics of the so-called terror raids should “wait for the facts and evidence”. Hello? Does this man have no shame, no mid- or long-term memory, or (scariest of all) does he really believe his own b.s.?

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  41. Bok (740 comments) says:

    It is very well known that Helen is if nothing else, the most consummate politician NZ has seen. And even tho her policies are dangerous, her strategies has to be admired. Am I the only one who thinks we have just seen the most brilliant bit of political strategy ever pulled in this country, and one which will win Labour another term?

    Think about this. Labour wants Winnie, needs him. Yet he is a goner. Or is he?
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10472673
    H1 sets up the raids (drug bust were planned but let’s change it to terrorism and we have a polarization – a la Brash-Orewa)
    Winnie gets to jump up and down and play the race card (he has done that so many times) and it will win him votes. Enough to hang on to 5 %.

    Labour walks away saying nothing to do with us… and Winnie is back with the numbers. Farfetched or simply stunningly done?

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  42. Policy Parrot (175 comments) says:

    Bok – don’t you realise that’s how conspiracy theories start? :P

    If you are serious with this …

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  43. helmet (807 comments) says:

    “I’d say if you’re talking about a trend over the last 30 years you’re right – but if you’re talking the last 5 years Labour has progressively introduced policies that take the country further left – i.e. WFF, 20 hours free, cheaper doctors visits, 4 weeks annual leave in 2008.”

    Isn’t Labour talking about tax cuts in 2008? Talk about the purple party. Whilst there is a lot of ideologically driven policy, to me it looks like they’ll do pretty much anything to stay in power, even if it means moving even further to the right,, which is good news for the right.

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  44. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    Well I did say at the time ‘if Helen plays this right – it could be her ‘Orewa”

    Conspiracy theory – it worked for them when they demonised the EBs, why stop there?

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  45. hinamanu (2,352 comments) says:

    “Labour walks away saying nothing to do with us… and Winnie is back with the numbers. Farfetched or simply stunningly done?”

    Sounds good in theory,, in fact, almost iron clad

    But remember, they said that about the AB’s, they didn’t even come a well placed second.

    Winnie can’t help this time,, his senior citizen card has been outrightly rejected….. with contempt.

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  46. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    Keep saying this – but they say a prophet is never welcome in his own town….

    First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out–
    because I was not a communist;
    Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out–
    because I was not a socialist;
    Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out–
    because I was not a trade unionist;
    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out–
    because I was not a Jew;
    Then they came for me–
    and there was no one left to speak out for me.

    (M. Niemoller)

    The trend is establishing itself. Once the EFB goes through well anyone will be fair game for a kangaroos court…

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  47. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    Craig – “”Hello? Does this man have no shame, no mid- or long-term memory, or (scariest of all) does he really believe his own b.s.?”

    I have come to terms with the idea that Winston has no regard for the truth – he is like ‘The Picture of Dorian Grey’ with a scary oil painting of what everyone believes is Keith Richard in his attic – he simply spouts what it is politically expedient at any given time, because he is an egregious power-corrupted drone, who was fortunate to be born into an environment where such idiots are not only tolerated, but encouraged.

    I’ve got as lot of time for the Maori party, along with the EB, at least they represent a mentality of those who are willing to get off their sofas and attempt to make a difference to the system which has produced Winston, Benson-Pope, Brash (yes Brash) Mallard, Field and of course, Helen.
    And what do they get for their efforts? Villification and law-changes to suit the political whims of the oligarchy. etc etc…

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  48. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    Bok “H1 sets up the raids (drug bust were planned but let’s change it to terrorism and we have a polarization – a la Brash-Orewa)
    Winnie gets to jump up and down and play the race card (he has done that so many times) and it will win him votes. Enough to hang on to 5 %.

    Labour walks away saying nothing to do with us… and Winnie is back with the numbers. Farfetched or simply stunningly done?”

    Another failing of the MMP system? (Mallard notwithstanding) the party discipline and accountability systems can be by-passed by the unscrupulous. Under MMP you could have Dr. Goebbels as your Minister of Foreign Affairs, and he could spout any kind of racist drivel he desired, but:

    take not only no responsibility for it but
    profit by it

    Another thing for a Minister of Foreign affairs to be glibly using the ‘apartheid’ card for this situation not only displays a willful disdain for the actual atrocities of apartheid, it is a stunning piece of bullly-boy ‘blame the victim’ mentality.

    I only hope that the Maori Party join the dots and see Winston for the shameless poodletician is, doing Helen’s dirty laundry, washing out the shitty racist undertone in this whole thing so that it looks like her knickers are clean…..and dare I say, whiter than white?

    start the car….

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  49. toms (301 comments) says:

    New Zealand has, and always has had since at least the beginning of the 20th century, a natural majority for progesssive policies. All MMP has done is to make that obvious in its more accurate reflection of voting. Helen Clark has openly stated that she wishes to leave as her legacy a Scandinavian type social democracy where a ruling centre left party in various coalitions can maintain a stable government for twenty-five years or more. And looking at the success of Scandinavia, all I can say is all power to her and hopefully after defeat 2008 National will retreat to further irrelevance from the countries progressive narrative.

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  50. francis (712 comments) says:

    lol @ “tow [sic] the party line” – it must seem like that to so many.

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  51. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    toms thank you for that – It’s wonderful to hear your ringing endorsement of Clark and Peters.

    I’m assuming that in your endorsement of MMP indicates your failure to acknowledge the point I made. That the noble desire to create stability at the centre of the spectrum has been sold down the river by partisan and extreme individuals like Peters, with the faint endorsement of Clark.

    The past months have been an absolutely apalling series of nasty, divisive, racist, authoritarian and petty squabbles and vilence underpinned by a drive to f**k over the Bill of Rights while riding on the victimisation of various sections of society.

    If this is your dream along the ‘Scandinavian model’ I suggest you get out more. I think the last time the Scandinavians enjoyed this kind of racist rhetoric and corrupted political practice was during WWII.

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  52. Richard (130 comments) says:

    Andrew W said, “Richard, tax revenue as a % of GDP has been steadily rising since at least the 1920 when it was about 12%…… few if any, in Labour today would condone the actions of Douglas & Co, and for the majority of NZer’s today Douglas is a virtual pariah……”

    True – similar to the trends for the rest of the Western World. Also lets remember that the main pain that people felt from Rogernomics was the gutting of public make work schemes likethe railways and post offices and that it happened while inflation was massive. Does that prove that your origninal contention that attitudes now are different (in terms of entitle ment to benefits is different from 20 years ago)?

    http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/44/41/39494985.pdf

    Looking at the figures we’ve gone from 31% to 36% since 85, hardly support for your statement that were headed for communism by 2020.

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  53. Andrew W (1,629 comments) says:

    “True – similar to the trends for the rest of the Western World.” Correct, which doesn’t make this trend right or wrong but does make it a definite feature of democratic nations.

    Here’s a couple of questions for you Richard; why has the tax take steadily increased over the last century, why is 36% acceptable to most people today while 12% was acceptable to most 100 years ago? My comment re communism by 2020 was a little facetious, more intended to highlight the trend rather than set a date.

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  54. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    If this speech by winston is at all genuine National had better hope like hell that NZ1 doesn’t make it over 5% next year.

    http://thesprout.vodpod.com/video/373003-scarey-when-winston-makes-sense

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  55. Richard (130 comments) says:

    “Here’s a couple of questions for you Richard; why has the tax take steadily increased over the last century, why is 36% acceptable to most people today while 12% was acceptable to most 100 years ago?”

    Well if you consider increasing old folk, increased participation in education and health care over the last 100 years that gobbles up most of the change. I’d suggest that most people have had a pretty standard demand for such services from the state we’re just more educated and older. Health care’s increased cost is mainly due to the greater scope of treatment available.

    A question back at you – does the change in tax from 31 to 36 over the last 20 years really back up your initial contention, especially given that much welfare was effectively funded through the revenues of state monopolies 20 years ago?

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  56. Andrew W (1,629 comments) says:

    “Well if you consider increasing…”

    I think we come to similar conclusions from opposite directions, I would argue that life was far tougher in the past and that the greater wealth that we have, due to better technology has meant people are more willing and better able to afford a larger tax take and therefore greater government expenditure on the needy in the form of more social welfare.
    As far as Health goes it’s a bit of a chicken and egg, which comes first, willingness for more health spending or the better medical technology that that spending can buy?
    I don’t know if the government contribution to the nations total health ans education spend has increased, I suspect it has, which would be a better indication of whether or not these sectors are more socialist.

    “A question back at you – does the change in tax from 31 to 36 over the last 20 years really back up your initial contention, especially given that much welfare was effectively funded through the revenues of state monopolies 20 years ago?”

    As I’ve said, it’s a continuation of a century old trend, as you’ve pointed out, it’s a global trend, the contribution of state monopolies 20 years ago vs today is not a globally universal factor, the increase in tax is though.

    Legislation like anti-terror laws (terrorism is not a recent event and despite the twin towers, in reality, it’s not on the increase) the EFB, and greater complexity and greater powers of the revenue collection arm of govt are other factors that demonstrate that we are steadily losing freedoms to the state, and effectively we vote for those reduced freedoms.

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  57. entertain-me (15 comments) says:

    Hahaha!!! I like it I like it I like it a lot!!! come on people. Let’s be realistic and face the facts here…. we all know that Winston will most likely become king maker again if National and Labour struggle to form a government, even from the other minor party’s. I feel that Winston will once again lead parliaments 3rd biggest party. And I hope he does!!!!

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