General Debate 07 November 2007
So who’s up for a holiday to Fiji then?
No TweetBacks yet. (Be the first to Tweet this post)
Tags: UncategorizedGeneral Debate 07 November 2007
133 Responses to “General Debate 07 November 2007”
Leave a Reply
You must be logged in to post a comment.
November 7th, 2007 at 12:16 pm
No thank you, but isn’t the weather is fabulous in Melbourne this time of year?
November 7th, 2007 at 12:21 pm
Great place for a holiday. Just because a couple of defacto NZers get themselves roughed up for attempting to knock off the Prime Minister does not mean NZ tourists are at risk. NZers are more likely to be killed or injured in the suburbs of Perth than theyare in any tourist resort on the Coral Coast.
Yep, I’d go back there tomorrow.
November 7th, 2007 at 12:21 pm
Two Fijian netballers have withdrawn from the Fiji team for the World Champs due to family connections in the military – have just blogged about it here:
http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2007/11/thanks-helen-and-winston.html
November 7th, 2007 at 12:24 pm
I would have no problem holidaying in Fiji at the moment on the Western Side and the Coral Coast. Basically anywhere between Ba and Deuba and making a day visit to Suva. Suva at night may be slightly different but I haven’t been their for a fairly lengthy period.
If Clark and Peters pulled their heads in we probably would not have NZ citizens being arrested.
I find it difficult to comprehend that an Indian was leading a plot to kill Bainimarama. My information is that he has the support of most Indians so it just does nt fit.
November 7th, 2007 at 12:27 pm
Tane, i know several Adolf’s… and none of them would appreciate you slurring them so.
November 7th, 2007 at 12:27 pm
I’m up for a holiday in my old homeland. Might even drop in on Frank for an interview.
Bloody good Idea David, a bloggers holiday in Fiji. We could all then find out the truth rather than rely on Helen’s (and we all know she is a stranger to the truth), Winston’s and Michael Field’s version of the “truth”.
I am yet to meet even one Fijian (Indian or otherwise) that is against what Frank bainimarama is doing. I now have several Fijian blogs linking to me for a real perspective rather than the Gummint’s jaundiced view.
On another note I haven’t heard of any travel bans yet for Pakistani, Thai or Chinese regime leaders, I wonder why that is?
November 7th, 2007 at 12:33 pm
Well Trev is going to have his day in court.
Perhaps in a neutral impartial court we will finally hear what happened?
Could be a need for a character witness to state that he is a “hardworking and concientious minister”
November 7th, 2007 at 12:35 pm
Tane
I have just looked at your Standard Blog.
It really could do with some attention to make it a bit more informative and interesting.
Why not spend some time there being productive rather than simply sniping here!
November 7th, 2007 at 12:35 pm
Tane, i know several Adolf’s… and none of them would appreciate you slurring them so.
No you don’t. Nobody knows several Adolfs.
Tane why do you name yourself after a tree, so you think it is funny or something.
I’m Maori. Are you racist?
November 7th, 2007 at 12:37 pm
I’m Fijian, are you racist?
November 7th, 2007 at 12:38 pm
I’m Fijian, are you racist?
Um, that’s just stupid Whale.
November 7th, 2007 at 12:41 pm
How is that stupid, I was born in Suva, I have a Fijian passport, I guess that makes me Fijian.
What does that make you tree man?
November 7th, 2007 at 12:45 pm
What??? Tree man???
You really are a confusing fellow Whale.
I just want to know what Adolf chose to name himself after Hitler, and whether he thinks it’s funny. It’s not that hard a question to answer.
November 7th, 2007 at 12:46 pm
I’m a kiwi – are you racist. I did forget for a while that when Martin Luther said we are all one people he was a visionary but when Don Brash said it he was a racist.
Tane – you might be a Maori – but we all know that race has nothing to do with intelligence eh.
November 7th, 2007 at 12:47 pm
burt, refer to a comment on the other thread about dog-whistling. compare the ‘i have a dream’ speech with orewa.
November 7th, 2007 at 12:48 pm
Tane
Why would I read anything of your’s – you’ll probably make a reference to John Key telling lies as justification for calling Don Brash a racist.
November 7th, 2007 at 12:48 pm
Tane – Adolf’s Maori too: http://www.blogger.com/profile/08045358863278087055
You’re being as deliberately disingenious as usual, since there’s no evidence that Adolf is naming himself after Hitler.
If you wanted to know the same answer, but weren’t being a dick about it, you’d say “Are you choosing to name yourself after Hitler? If so, why?”
November 7th, 2007 at 12:51 pm
Good point Camryn.
Adolf, are you choosing to name yourself after Hitler? If so, why?
November 7th, 2007 at 12:53 pm
Do you believe in equality under the law or positive discrimination. The former gives equality of opportunity, the latter gives equality of outcome (or whatever is defined as such in each instance).
November 7th, 2007 at 12:55 pm
My last post is unclear. The first sentence should have a question mark, and I’m talking to Tane as a response to his exchange with Burt re: Orewa.
November 7th, 2007 at 12:55 pm
Tane, you are a dickhead, there are any number of people Adolf could have chosen to take his nick from. In fact there are literally hundreds of Adolf’s that have historical significance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf
Most think you of as a fool, when you continually post off topic you remove all doubt.
Now tell me again why you are named after a tree? If you really cared about your Maori heritage rahter than just being named after a tree wouldn’t you spell your name Tāne?
November 7th, 2007 at 12:57 pm
Adolf, mein herr – Bainimarama is not a Prime Minister – he is a dictator who took power by force, has had several people killed and has given himself the fictious title ‘Interim Prime Minsiter’ which is a breach of the Fijian consitution and not internaitonally recognised.
So don’t conflate an alleged attempt to kill him with an assisination of a duly-elected Prime Minister
November 7th, 2007 at 12:57 pm
John/Tane/D4J ??
November 7th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
Cam – I’m actually not a huge fan of identity politics. I’m far more interested in individual outcomes. Where there’s a compelling case that ethnic-based service provision (such as in the case of Maori health providers) provides better outcomes then I’m all for it. But I’m not sure this is a conversation I can be bothered getting into. I’m off to get kebabs.
Whale – fuck off.
November 7th, 2007 at 1:00 pm
taht’d be the corrupt racially based constitution you all seem to favour would it? The same racially based constitution that gives Fijians two votes but Fiji-Indians but one vote, the same constitution that entrenches the corrupt body known as the Great Council of Chief’s that virtually made Fiji a corrupt nepotistic country looted by the Ratu’s through the Great Council of Chiefs.
Sam, when you know even a modicum of Fijian history get back to me would you, till then STFU.
November 7th, 2007 at 1:01 pm
Could I propose some self restraint on posts that suggest, ask, or imply that one or more usernames on here are the same person? No-one’s ever going to know for sure, no-one’s ever going to admit it, and it actually makes no difference.
November 7th, 2007 at 1:01 pm
Ok Tāne, what ever you say. Yeah right, like I’m ever going to listen to a tree!!
November 7th, 2007 at 1:02 pm
Why is NZ involving itself in Fiji anyway
No one else is. We don’t own Fiji, it has nothing to do with us.
If you’re tslking Commonwealth, Britain is not formally speaking out.
NZ is the US of the pacific trying to run everything.
Damn Labour communists.
If Labour get in again I can see a mini 1980’s Afganistan happening here.
Tane,, justify Labours snooping on Fiji!
November 7th, 2007 at 1:02 pm
“Whale – fuck off”
err, it’s you Tane who frequent here for the purpose of picking fights. You have nothing intelligent to say. Why not just satisfy your obsession with Adolf’s name over at your place. That’s the level of The Standard.
November 7th, 2007 at 1:04 pm
I think I might change my name to Hannibal Stalin , but then again himumooo will think I am a rattlesnake up a drain pipe , oh to be a limp dick jellyfish ..
Hey bro, hows the mung beans up top today ?
November 7th, 2007 at 1:06 pm
“Whale – fuck off”
Tane can you wash your mouth out with slimy smarmy Maharey juice ?
November 7th, 2007 at 1:08 pm
Tane – Fair enough. I’m also happy for absolutely anybody to provide services to anybody else, and getting paid to do it by the government if it works. I much prefer charities and private providers to monolithic state departments. Government as funder, not provider and all that. I’m strongly in favour of the state being non-discriminatory on any basis, but that obviously doesn’t mean ignoring all aspects of who a person is when dealing with them. Individual outcomes. Glad we agree.
The crux here is that I’m sure that’s also what Don Brash was saying. I think you know that, deep down.
Enjoy your kebab.
November 7th, 2007 at 1:09 pm
No doubt Tanes another one of those plastic tikis
November 7th, 2007 at 1:10 pm
Tane – accusing Adolf of naming himself after Adolf Hitler is like accusing anyone named Michael of naming themselves after Michael Jackson – give it a rest pal!
November 7th, 2007 at 1:11 pm
I’m surprised that Mr. Farrar hasn’t blogged on Labour’s plans to indoctrinate children with their poisonous social ideas, otherwise known as the “new educational curriculum”. Of course the left cannot sell their crazed politically correct policies to mature adults, so like the child molesters of the minds that they are, they try to instill them into innocent children.
The left all over the globe are obsessed with interfering with the minds of children. In NZ they’re succeeding beyond their wildest dreams. The number of politically one dimensional left wing knuckle draggers writing here are proof of that.
Didn’t people learn anything from the Nazis and their Hitler-Jugen? It just amazes me that people are so unconcerned about such a calamitous immoral and unprincipled attack on our education system, a system that is at the core of our civilization.
Nothing of late has made me feel more hopeless concerning the future of this country than reading about this “curriculum, and seeing it being promoted by the two despicable socialist charlatans Carter and Fitzsimons, two of the most barbaric MPs we have.
Once again, real education takes a backward step whilst brainwashing and indoctrination is brought to the fore. This country is in desperate trouble in so many ways, and people need to realise that the root of so many of the problems lies within the leftist controlled education system.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4264065a11.html
November 7th, 2007 at 1:21 pm
I am taking both my daughters out of school, as this indoctrination of the children has gone far enough . For fucks sake New Zealanders, how much more bullshit from this clearly deluded government can you take ?
November 7th, 2007 at 1:23 pm
Tane says “I’m actually not a huge fan of identity politics”
Haha, except for telling certain folks to F##$ off, or questioning them on their user names, or calling them liars I suppose? Why don’t you run back there and post on how mean everyone at Kiwiblog is being? Is your own blog out of action or something?
Or how about a comment praising Key for supporting Helen’s tough talk on fireworks?
November 7th, 2007 at 1:26 pm
I wonder if Helen Clark started trumpeting the one law for all line if Tane would lambast her for dog whistling……..
November 7th, 2007 at 1:28 pm
Hi Redbaiter
I covered that over at No Minister yesterday.
Go to http://www.nominister.blogspot.com
We could do with a few trolls popping by to keep us amused.
So if you fancy something to upset you Tane, No Minister is the place.
We’ve said a few things about dear Leader too.
There is also a thought provoking piece on racism too.
Cheers
November 7th, 2007 at 1:30 pm
In interesting (if old) news, US researcher discovers that big boobed waitresses get bigger tips.
Hat tip: http://waiterrant.net/?p=594
Study: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/wml3/pdf/ServerAppearance8-1-07.pdf
November 7th, 2007 at 1:32 pm
Aaahhh Fiji; gorgeous, gorgeous Fiji and the beautiful Fijian peoples; if only I could live permanently on Fiji-time.
I ‘did the loop’ round Viti Levu a couple of months back (and yes thanks dear leader for being able to afford a resort) Coral Coast great, Suva fab, Kings Road developing (lots of Chinese money so the locals say) and will change the culture of that area forever, Volivoli backpacker/resort run by a NZer and I can’t print what he siad about Aunty Helen, Lautoka (interesting), Saweni (huge spiders). We walked into rural schools and had a look round, walked into sugar cane paddocks and were welcomed and shown the ropes, given guided tours ofcaves by people we met, we were welcomed into the markets and greeted with open arms because we were “kiwi” and NOT ONE person said a bad thing about Frank. Many mentioned the GoliGoli (?spelling) legislation that was going to be passed before the coup…I’ll leave it there.
November 7th, 2007 at 1:37 pm
Interesting that under Adolf’s profile he lists”Wagner” in his “favorite music” category – of course Wagner was one of Hitler’s favorite composers. Coincidence?
November 7th, 2007 at 1:37 pm
Thanks for the tip D. Brilliant article and I should visit No Minister more often. Only so much time in a day unfortunately. I repeat, it just amazes me that the parents in this country are so lackadaisical about the indoctrination of their children at the expense of their education. Children are the future. If they’re indoctrinated with socialist garbage rather than educated, there is no future. There is nothing more pressingly urgent in this country. if it is to be saved from totalitarianism, than reform of the education sector.
November 7th, 2007 at 1:38 pm
The ministry of Education should rightly be re-named the ministry of indoctrination. One need only look at the noticeboard of any public secondary school staff-room to see what the majority political thinking is in education. Do so if you ever get the chance.
There seems to be far too much kowtowing to the left wing, liberal though process when it comes to our children. They are being taught to be wary of all men, including fathers. They are being protected from failure in assessments (Fail is never mentioned in NCEA) and in sport where scores are no longer being kept at junior sport in case little jack or jill is damaged by losing.
What this thinking fails to acknowledge is failure is a part of life, and learning how to deal with failure may be one of the greatest life skills of all. With all the statistics with regards to youth suicide, shouldn’t this be of concern?
November 7th, 2007 at 1:39 pm
I had a quick look on the minedu.govt.nz/tki website for the implementation of the curriculum and there wasn’t much to show for it.
It looks like a case of journalistic license.
D4J, it’s not a matter of taking them out of school, it is simply a matter of providing balance and giving your children the ability to think and evaluate. School, like many other aspects of life, provides children an opportunity to evaluate their thinking against the mainstream consensus. The alternative, of home-schooling, especially when you are convinced of a conspiracy against you (whether real or not), is not going to equip them with the skills to change to society. Your children, like you, will be marginalised.
Do you think people take you seriously when your commentary is so angry? I’ve read your website and when you make moderate comments (in terms of language), you make a lot more sense, and people do empathize. But otherwise you just come across as an old, bitter crank.
There is a point to this little rant. The people who read these blogs, left or right-wing, are more influenced by reason and courtesy than of a tirade of hate.
November 7th, 2007 at 1:40 pm
“Here are a few quotes from Wagner” – are we starting to see a patern amongst “Adolf’s” idols now?
All Jews should be burned at a performance of Nathan the Wise.{1}
Only one thing can redeem you (Jews) from the burden of your curse: the redemption of Ahasverus — total destruction.{2}
“cursed Jew-scum” {3}
I have cherished a long repressed resentment about this Jew money-world, and this hatred is as necessary to my nature as gall is to blood.{4}
By removing [Jewish] vermin, I don’t necessarily mean destroying them . . . There are many ways, systematic, and comparatively painless, or at any rate bloodless, of causing races to vanish . . . We may take systematic measures to dam their great natural fertility . . . By doing this gradually and without bloodshed, we demonstrate our humanity.{5}
The Jew is the parasite in the body of other nations.{6}
The Jew must not be destroyed, because then “we should have to invent him. It is essential to have a tangible enemy, not merely an absract one.”{6b}
http://solomonsmusic.net/WagHit.htm
November 7th, 2007 at 1:40 pm
Nome, I think Adolf has stated a few times he is Jewish. I think of German extraction. Adolf isn’t that uncommon a name in Germany, and Wagner is relatively popular over there. Nice threadjack though.
November 7th, 2007 at 1:43 pm
PaulL, while it pains me to show even a very minor defense of the idiotic nome, this is the General Debate – one can hardly threadjack it wouldnt you say.
November 7th, 2007 at 1:46 pm
The education system is populated by members of the screeching sisterhood which is why I didnt send my children to a State school but to a independent school which offered a balanced education rather than raming the PC crapola down their throats.
The education unions are a time warp stuck in the old communist era. they aint woken up that the Wall came down in 1989 do they cling onto the ould ways assisted and supported by the Socialists who see children as the new Socialist voters of the future.
November 7th, 2007 at 1:48 pm
Gnome says:
“Interesting that under Adolf’s profile he lists”Wagner” in his “favorite music” category – of course Wagner was one of Hitler’s favorite composers. Coincidence?”
Wagner and his sister Cosima used to have Nietzche around to stay. The hapless philosopher may have contracted syphillis while he was an ambulance orderly during the Franco-Prussian War, and it sent him into increasingly batty bouts of delusion and hysteria. Often he researcxhed his points avidly, and as such came across as informed, but perhaps a little skewed in his thinking. . Cosima Wagner thought that his condition was actually caused by ‘excessive masturbation’. But I think it was that his brain was fried.
What do you think, Gnome?
Coincidence?
November 7th, 2007 at 1:48 pm
“The alternative, of home-schooling, especially when you are convinced of a conspiracy against you (whether real or not), is not going to equip them with the skills to change to society. Your children, like you, will be marginalised.”
This is all garbage. Read any of the broad information that is out there on home schooling. The above fabricated charges are all refuted. Don’t you leftists have anything in the magazine other than bullets powered by scaremongering?? The only real complaint about homeschooling is unrefuted religious indoctrination, but this is paralleled in government owned schools by socialist indoctrination, so is therefore canceled out as a downside.
November 7th, 2007 at 1:52 pm
My problem with home schooling would be that it would very much depend on the competence of the person doing the schooling.
Actually, that’s my problem with school schooling too
RB – you been looking up my name on the interwebby thing?
November 7th, 2007 at 1:56 pm
“Cosima Wagner thought that his condition was actually caused by ‘excessive masturbation’. But I think it was that his brain was fried. What do you think, Gnome?Coincidence?”
Are you saying that Adolf’s brain is fried or that he mastubates excessively? Because Both of them seem reasonable propositions. Oh, and no, I doubt that has to do with Adolf being a fascist prick.
November 7th, 2007 at 1:57 pm
“Cosima Wagner thought that his condition was actually caused by ‘excessive masturbation’. But I think it was that his brain was fried. What do you think, Gnome?Coincidence?”
Are you saying that Adolf’s brain is fried or that he masturbates excessively? Because Both of them seem reasonable propositions. Oh, and no, I doubt that has to do with Adolf being a fascist prick.
November 7th, 2007 at 2:00 pm
oh the irony.
November 7th, 2007 at 2:02 pm
Or, as gnome would have it ‘ironhood’.
November 7th, 2007 at 2:37 pm
Tane
I have just looked at your Roger Nome Blog site.
It really could do with some attention to make it a bit more informative and interesting. The scarcity of posts of for that matter timely leader articles suggests that you have attracted little interest out here in cyperspace.
Why not spend some time there being productive rather than simply sniping here!
November 7th, 2007 at 2:38 pm
Sorry Tane.
It was meant to be a serve this time for Roger. However both take note
November 7th, 2007 at 2:39 pm
bevan: good point. I hadn’t, however, expected the general debate post to really mean “make random personal attacks about people’s names.”
November 7th, 2007 at 2:40 pm
Whaleoil – I’m prefectly uptodate on Fijian constituional arrangemnts, thanks, and I wasn’t defending the constitution, I was saying Baini is a dictator and a murderer – its a basic logical flaw to assume that becuase I don’t agree with an action against something I am in favour of that thing.
November 7th, 2007 at 2:59 pm
Talking about a constitution sam its about bloody time NZ had one matey !!
November 7th, 2007 at 3:03 pm
The Cook Islands are far nicer.
I’ ve been away for awhile but it is pleasing to see that those on the far left are still stupid and those fighting the good fight have been taking advantage.
November 7th, 2007 at 3:07 pm
“My problem with home schooling would be that it would very much depend on the competence of the person doing the schooling.”
I agree. I wouldn’t let you homeschool a guinea pig.
“RB – you been looking up my name on the interwebby thing?”
WTF??? Aren’t you the guy who used to be on usenet? Just assumed you were.
November 7th, 2007 at 3:37 pm
Why would NZ require another reformed constitution? When the Constitution Act 1986 is more than satisfactory… It disallows the ability for the British (Westminster) parliament to pass laws for New Zealand.
Dad4Justice, is it that you propose NZ cease to be a constitutional monarchy?
November 7th, 2007 at 4:07 pm
time for big change cv, as I think its called survival. What harm could it do ?
November 7th, 2007 at 4:12 pm
All kindergartens now offering 20 hours free
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0711/S00108.htm
still a policy failure?
November 7th, 2007 at 4:18 pm
All kindergartens now offering 20 hours free
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0711/S00108.htm
still a policy failure?
Really? Mines not…….
November 7th, 2007 at 4:34 pm
D4J, I can’t see the current government ditching the reformed constitution act that’s the brainchild of reform-king and beloved ex-Labour PM D.Lange for a newer version.
November 7th, 2007 at 4:43 pm
This comment adds nothing to the discussion and is merely a weak and unintelligent personal attack on llew. Where are the moderators? Or is it only (insert your political epithet here) who are afforded the protection of moderation??
You might remember those words from yesterday?
And Usenet? I doubt it, unless you regularly posted on rec.arts.movies in the 1990s. I might’ve perused NZ.general now & then, not enough for anyone to remember I’d have thought though.
November 7th, 2007 at 4:45 pm
Why I am wondering about the constitution is simple cv, as I cannot for the life of me comprehend how swearing in the debating chamber and fighting in parliament can be a healthy principle on which the state is governed ?? As a appalled constituent , I find it both offensive and bewildering that the Labour Farty can chop and change statute law to suit themselves . These pricks need a set of rules firmly hanging on the wall of the smelly lickspittle infested debating chamber of horrors . Who’re going madam speaker , come on barbie lets go party , yahoo serious , lets have a brawl and swear session now MP’s .
November 7th, 2007 at 4:49 pm
Nice comment by Tony Ryall in question time, referring to the Labour benches as “the Health ministers graveyard”. Simon Power had Annette King a little flustered as well, which is unusual for her I would have thought.
November 7th, 2007 at 4:59 pm
Parliament has lost all integrity and will remain so, until Helen Clark and her cohorts are removed from power . The whole political process has been undermined by the disgraceful behaviour of several senior Labour cabinet ministers . The silly socialist nanny state engineers are saturated in skullduggery and they should fly the jolly roger nome flag and sing the happy lickspittle song before the start of every bacteriological bullshit session .
November 7th, 2007 at 4:59 pm
bevan – not all childcare centres are kindergartens, perhaps that’s your confusion… read the release
November 7th, 2007 at 5:03 pm
Tane: I just want to know what Adolf chose to name himself after Hitler, and whether he thinks it’s funny. It’s not that hard a question to answer.
Are you an idiot? Go educate yourself.
http://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&q=adolph+finkelstein&btnG=Search&meta=
November 7th, 2007 at 5:17 pm
HI every one ,HAD A GOOD DAY ,be nice to each other, opps is tane the real estate sales man still around, tane i own your country, opps my section,
November 7th, 2007 at 5:23 pm
“This comment adds nothing to the discussion and is merely a weak and unintelligent personal attack on llew.”
No ttrue. It is as I said, an expression of agreement with your own damn sentiments you moron. You said you wouldn’t homeschool (your kids one has to assume) because you considered yourself incompetent, and I merely agreed with that opinion. Totally different circumstances to an unprovoked attack from someone who hitherto had had nothing to say on the issue under discussion you silly spiteful desperate little boy. Are you a teacher?
November 7th, 2007 at 5:58 pm
So, there’s a thought that socialist theory is indoctrination, but capitalist theory is the truth? I am especially curious about this, since I know socialist theory has been largely developed to question and criticise capitalist theory – Gramsci’s hegemony is one I keep returning to, in that it is a theory about how ideological power can be exercised in ways that are not immediately obvious, such as the EFB would be if Labour just made it law and didn’t tell anybody and suddenly we all found ourselves restricted. Or, the way in which the Dominion Post supports Kerry Prendegast – you will never find a critical article about her in those pages, even though she does much that is worth criticism (just as I’m sure she clearly does much that is worth praising.) In the sense that knowledge is power – and it is, as I’m sure DPF would agree. If you didn’t know about the EFB, you couldn’t act against it – and if you don’t know about what Kerry does wrong you can’t protest or be inspired to choose another mayor. So: Hegemony is socialist theory in that it immediately contradicts the idea that the free market is unbaised, and indicates that bias may be invisible.
There was some good talk about money last night, and I think it is worth considering how much capitalism essentially saved us from the mire of religious oppression (and I DON’T mean personal worship. I mean the pope telling you exactly what you were and weren’t allowed to do, and having his minions seriwack you if you did otherwise.) But now that we’re out of that, socialist theory has concentrated on seeing the power apperatus of capitalism and addressed the need for mediation. It surprised me that you wouldn’t want your kids to be aware of the way capitalism worked, as well as the good things you believe it does.
November 7th, 2007 at 6:06 pm
tane, sam nome and robinsod.
Well done ladies you win. Mission accomplished, you have completely and utterly wrecked this blog with your puerile drivel.
This is now fucking BEBO.
David you must be bleeding readers today, something I feel sure is the intention of your labour party funded trolls.
Goodbye.
November 7th, 2007 at 6:31 pm
Furthermore, if anything, I feel I was given a Capitalist indoctrination at school. I was taught about competition, personal achievement and developing a single thesis, all of which, I would argue, are the lynchpins of capitalist thought.In fact I was once thrown out of a class room for pointing out that a text we were studying from was out of date and actively racist in what was written there – and my highschool was fairly liberal.
I don’t think this was wrong or even intentional – I live in a capitalist society, and, essentially, I learned the rules of my tribe at school.
November 7th, 2007 at 6:38 pm
Capitalism is not fundementally evil or bad, and I definately believe we need some equivalent measure of exchange, but what I see as the fundemental problem is that if someone is on top, someone has to be on the bottom – ie: if there is Donald Trump, then there has to be a homeless person. Socialist theory tries to address this, but the problem is, it’s doing a shit job because some of you are really, really angry when socialist policies are discussed. So we can’t have socialism, and we can’t have unchecked capitalism, which is what some of you come close to supporting.
What’s the solution?
November 7th, 2007 at 6:42 pm
MR D Farrar, THANK YOU SIR for the oppotunity, TO POST ,dont sigh,
i like your blogg and appreciate the effort you put in,
November 7th, 2007 at 6:46 pm
Tane
Why do the unions (especially those in the fin and services sector) condone and promote violence and sexism? Read “NZ Union movement promotes violence” by employing those who actively promote those concept. Search kiwiblog under Tane, Roger Nome and robinsod. Also search under Bok to conter any comments by the above said.
November 7th, 2007 at 6:51 pm
SamDixon said
“All kindergartens now offering 20 hours free
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0711/S00108.htm
still a policy failure?”
Okay Sam, easy enough to settle.
For every parent worse off (because of the policy) you will py the difference. Not a bad call is it you think it works, those in the industry says it does not. Well are you a liar or a fool? Or are you principled enough to believe in what you are spouting? I will keep asking this question every time I see you comment until you answer.
November 7th, 2007 at 7:17 pm
“ie: if there is Donald Trump, then there has to be a homeless person.”
thats only because of the white mentality that there’s no such thing as a free lunch.
The white man calls cultural societies primitive.
The truth is only white society knows poverty. Where ever there are politicians in charge there is poverty.
The white man introduced poverty to America. There was none before him. Sitting Bull was shocked with the poverty he saw on a visit to Washington. He gave what he had to street urchins.
The real primitives are the white politicians who red line culture and rule by divide and conquer.
We know tribalism is essential cause Hillary Clinton said so
“It takes a village to raise a child.”
Ironically, her predecessors wiped out all the villages.
And what did they do?
Introduced reservations and poverty.
and guess what… now we’re all the Indians.
November 7th, 2007 at 7:28 pm
“thats only because of the white mentality that there’s no such thing as a free lunch.”
Yes, I think that’s what I was driving at. That idea is the metaphysic of capitalism, really – the idea that you must work. But that work must be valued exteranally – ie: your work MUST fit the societical idea of what is valuable. For a long time, and still, to an extent, the work of mothers in homes is not seen as valuable, so they are not rewarded finacially. Partly this is because they have no specific employer. But at any rate, because it is not seen as valuable, it is percieved as not working, and the DPB as a “free lunch.”
Would you guys agree with this as the basic philosophical structure of the “free lunch” idea?
November 7th, 2007 at 7:29 pm
(the societical idea of what is valuable is an example of hegemony – in that it is ideologically rather than specifically enforced.)
November 7th, 2007 at 7:47 pm
Do you know much about individualism/ liberal theory Robyn? If you don’t, it would help you to understand the Right.
BTW I don’t think the Trump/homeless guy theory is valid. You could have Trump and no homeless guys too. The existence of a Trump doesn’t mean there HAS to be a homeless guy, even if that is what usually happens. It’s not a causative relationship.
November 7th, 2007 at 7:48 pm
Interestingly – roger is English slang for anal intercourse.
Coincidence ?
November 7th, 2007 at 7:54 pm
helmet:
Yes, I do know about those kinds of theory. But I only understand it with my mind, not with my body and my heart. I don’t understand it as a real system of philosophy. Can you tell me how it feels and means for you?
Secondly, in reff to Trump and Homeless guy, I’m not so sure you’re right – the main principal is competition, isn’t it? In the sense that there are so many resources and so much money. There is a finite ammount for distribution, is this right? Perhaps it need not be this extreme, but I think that the competition principal is responsible for the results: Rich head of Nike, sweatshop workers on 20c a day, and et cetera. This is viewed as distasteful but ultimately acceptable. One of my thoughts when engaging with these ideas was this:
Do you view competition as a true expression of human nature? That is, not nice, or pleasent or anything but just simply what people are?
If you did, that would make sense of much of this for me.
November 7th, 2007 at 7:55 pm
“if there is Donald Trump, then there has to be a homeless person.”
this is exactly where it all goes pear-shaped. very wrong. and its not about ‘working’ either. What I see is the ability to do whatever you want with your life (within certain bounds of course) provided you bring no harm to others.
Those of the extreme socialist persuasion tend to things in terms of money and material things, however that is because they tend to have little experience of money and material things at the heavier end of the spectrum. As such they have no appreciation. In my opinion money quickly fades as the be-all-and-end-all once it starts to accumulate. It becomes about power and prestige. And in that regard it is the same as virtually every other largger and more complex society there has ever been.
As for “no such thing as a free lunch” – sheesh, dont complicate things unnecessarily. It is a simple and true statement. Other version of the same thing include “what goes around comes around” “you reap what you sow” (which I believe has been around for eons), etc.
unfortunately i dont have a spare evening to swap posts all night bevause I am off to the coast for one last season haul of the whitebait.
and if any of you saw my post the other night (I’ll copy it through) re labour status in the heartland I will check the local pub again and report back next week.
2c and a cupful for brekkie
November 7th, 2007 at 7:59 pm
Robyn – the pear-shape stems exactly from a belief that there is a finite amount for distribution.
That comes down to a fundamental belief in the nature of the human.
Personally, I will not let there be a cap to human endeavour. But others do – good luck to them.
November 7th, 2007 at 7:59 pm
vto: sometime when you’re back will you talk about power with me? I’m interested in power and how it works.
Secondly, I’m not trying to complicate but to understand. It’s necessary for me to break down the philisophical structure of the right because I don’t understanbd it intuitively, as you seem to. The bonus of this is that at a structural level it becomes much less loaded and personal.
November 7th, 2007 at 8:00 pm
So there’s not a finite ammount for distribution? then how does the reserve bank work?
November 7th, 2007 at 8:02 pm
This is what I posted a couple daze ago “d4j – i get the idea you are coast whitebaiting. we built a place there and escape to it when we can.
It is interesting what you say about the way clark and labour are perceived there as I see it too. Remember – the coast is labour heartland.
Now, in our local pub over there they have a picture of Michael Joseph Savage on the wall. As you would expect.
But now, on the pub notice board they have clippings (plural!) from the newspapers of Clark et al festooned with Hitler style mo’s and the most rude an cutting comments scrawled across them in bright red pen. In the most public of pub notice boards. You know – next to the pool draw and the raffle results. She and they are hated, in their own heartland.
It is quite something to see and a very noticeable ramping up on the coasters part in just the last year or so especially. Heartland labour country with Savage proudly on the wall of the local pub and clark viciously lampooned.
Trotter, Clark Cullen Tane Sam etc etc should go visit and take it all in. It is a fascinating commentary on the current status of labour. And it is not pretty.”
Let you know if things have changed.
Later bro’s and sis’s
November 7th, 2007 at 8:03 pm
And secondly, what is human endevour? That is where I get confused, because capitalism seems to measure our worth in terms of money. But – I’m sure you will all be filled with vitrol when I mention celbrities and how much money they make..
November 7th, 2007 at 8:05 pm
Rub yne . Kin -eely , can’t you read, the man’s off whitebaiting why don’t you start restricting your frothing to blogs like the lickspittle nutbar sub standard where sods , gnomes and freaks play the golden syrup game on each other…
November 7th, 2007 at 8:06 pm
WEEEEEEEEE!
“thats only because of the white mentality that there’s no such thing as a free lunch.” – You dont really understand the “no free lunch” concept at all.
“The white man calls cultural societies primitive. The truth is only white society knows poverty.” – YUP, thats Zimbabwe in a nutshell! No food, no medicine, not toilet paper, no poverty though!
“The white man introduced poverty to America. There was none before him. Sitting Bull was shocked with the poverty he saw on a visit to Washington. He gave what he had to street urchins.”
- When two tribes went to war, the survivors of the losing side would have to fend for themselves. With no shelter and no food they weren’t survivors for long. Exposure and starvation take care of the poverty problem quite successfully.
“That idea is the metaphysic of capitalism, really – the idea that you must work.”
You MUST eat. I think we can all agree on that. You can provide your own food, hunt, gather, farm, or you can get it from someone else, buy or steal. If you dont want to steal you have to buy. To buy you have to have something they want. If what they want doesnt match what you have, well, there is always the steal option. OR you can provide what someone different wants (ie a job done) they supply you with something the food grower wants, which you then give to the food grower in exchange for food. You eat without having to steal.
Your work doesnt have to be valued by society. It just has to be valued by someone, ANYONE, willing to pay you for it. And here is the real mind-twister, that someone can be yourself!
“the work of mothers in homes is not seen as valuable, so they are not rewarded finacially.”
- The work of mothers at home has no specific value to anyone outside the home. When they work in the home, they are working for the family. It is the family that isnt rewarding them financially for their effort. But as a part of the family they reap the rewards of their own labour, and those people for which they have taken responsibility also reap the rewards. Things in the house get done, cleaned, repaired.
Expecting mothers in the home to get paid by society for their work at home is as ridiculous as expecting society to pay someone for scratching their own itch!
The reason we have the DPB is not to pay mothers to be mothers at home. We arent paying for their time. The money is paid so that single parents who cannot find work and have little money would be able to feed and cloth their children.
If the parent is at home because they can’t work outside of it, society will give them money so their kids dont starve.
Someone who CAN work but decides to stay at home and take advantage of societies generosity is known as a “free rider”. There is little way to distinguish between free riders and those with genuine needs but we are affluent and generous enough not to push the issue. That doesnt mean we dont get annoyed at the free riders, of course.
The “Free Lunch” concept, as in “There is no such thing as a”, refers to the fact that if you eat a meal, but dont pay for it,it still cost someone something. Whether that something is their money, their time, or even the opportunity to eat the meal themself, there is always a cost.
November 7th, 2007 at 8:16 pm
“But – I’m sure you will all be filled with vitrol when I mention celbrities and how much money they make..”
that’s because the public, esp youth endorse celebrities. They need to be entertained and govts need side tracks to keep peoples eyes off their agendas. Springbok tour was a very good example of that.
We simply can’t live in a void. We need something or someone to fill us.
we can’t stand to be alone with our mind for too long. we need outside stimulus that makes noise and takes away quietness. The mark of an adult is how much they can live with themselves and rely on themselves.
The masses wake up and turn on the radio/tv andd emand to be feed and advertisers will help them every inch of the way.
November 7th, 2007 at 8:17 pm
Thank God for the white man visiting kiwiland, as the Maori snack of crispy human was rather population destructive . I got a pet Moa in my bird cage .
November 7th, 2007 at 8:19 pm
“And secondly, what is human endevour? That is where I get confused, because capitalism seems to measure our worth in terms of money.”
- Capitalism doesnt measure your worth so it cant measure the same with money. What can be measured in terms of money is the VALUE of your labour, or your idea, or your image. But it really only does this because money is the medium of exchange. In a barter society, your labour, for example, would be valued in terms of whatever your trade partner has to trade. He will give you 5 melons for digging a trench for him.
“But – I’m sure you will all be filled with vitrol when I mention celbrities and how much money they make.”
- Julia Roberts was worth $20m a movie. She really was. If a movie had Julia Roberts in it, it would make more than that. The value of having her in the movie for the producers was MORE than what they paid her.
She walked where she was told to walk, and said the lines she was told to say. She worked 9 hour days for a few weeks, and got paid more than you ever will earn in your lifetime. Because she was Julia Roberts, there is only one of her, and for some reason we would pay to see a movie with her in it simply because she was in it.
November 7th, 2007 at 8:23 pm
“Your work doesnt have to be valued by society. It just has to be valued by someone, ANYONE, willing to pay you for it. And here is the real mind-twister, that someone can be yourself!”
Powerful statement. So powerful the govt is well aware of it and restricts jobs to ensue competition and keep the plebs full of uncertainty and fearing for their security and future. Then dole out little tid bits to keep them hoping.
November 7th, 2007 at 8:27 pm
“restricts jobs to ensue competition and keep the plebs full of uncertainty and fearing for their security and future”
Ok nutjob, how do they do this? How do they stop people working for themselves when they cant even stop self-employed drug growers, DVD piraters, hitmen, etc.
November 7th, 2007 at 8:29 pm
hinamanu, if you aren’t taking the piss, take your pills before you start raving about 5 jew bankers.
November 7th, 2007 at 8:34 pm
Kimble: Yes, what you’ve said about Julia Roberts makes complete sense. Do you know the star theorist Richard Dyer? He’s done some very similar writing. I am a big fan of his work.
Having said this though, re: single mothers et al, isn’t there a concept somewhere that happy, healthy children are benficial to society as whole? In this, I mean that a mother working inside the home IS valuble to society simply because children ARE society, or will be.
But this isn’t quite my point. More, I am interested in the idea that there is an ideological process by which some kinds of work are seen as more valuable than others, which restricts worth in a financial sense to those who are able to obtain that kind of work. A bit like hina said but less orchestrated – I’m talking about ideology as the measure of society rather than a dictate here, so you were correct to pull me up on talking about capitalism as if it were thinking and making decisions. What I am really talking about is the capitalist ideology. Your points about Julia Roberts fit this exactly – Julia is financially valuable simply because she is Julia, but none of us can be Julia too. Therefore she occupies a privilaged position that CANNOT be obtained by anyone else, no matter how hard they work.
And then there’s the free lunch: I don’t see it as costing, as taking, I see it as giving. When someone makes lunch for me, it doesn’t cost them, they give it to me. It adds to them.
November 7th, 2007 at 8:36 pm
This whole idea that capitalism is a mechanism by which humans can put a value on others is ridiculous.
I have met millionaires who arent worth a polite greeting. I have met pensioners who are worthy of all my respect.
You arent what you earn!
November 7th, 2007 at 8:39 pm
Just quickly.
“When someone makes lunch for me, it doesn’t cost them, they give it to me. It adds to them.”
It does cost them. It takes time that they could use to do other things. It burns energy that could be put to use doing something else. They may get more back through a good feeling, but that doesnt mean there wasnt a cost involved in the equation.
November 7th, 2007 at 8:48 pm
Kimble:
“Ok nutjob, how do they do this? How do they stop people working for themselves when they cant even stop self-employed drug growers, DVD piraters, hitmen, etc.”
When the reserve bank ups interest rates to curb inflation it makes it harder for new businesses to start up and existing businesses to expand their operations, as these things often involve loans. So in this way the reserve back, which could be interfered with if the government so wished, does restrict employment opportunities to some degree. Of course there is the argument that in the long term large levels of inflation would destroy business confidence and result in lower employment.
It really is interesting when you look at the big picture though. i.e. between 1945 and 1980 the predominance of keynsianist/nationalist economics brought the super rich’s share of National GPD down from 34% to 24% in Many of the big developed economies. i.e. Unionism bargained up wages, so the real product wage increased and profits decreased. Yet since economies have become globalised unions have lost their power and the super-rich’s share of wealth has gone back up to 1945 levels. Yet in france, where the unions are still strong the super-rich’s share of wealth remains at 1985 levels.
See page 16 of this link:
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/48/9/34483698.pdf –
The point of all this is that economies are easily manipulated by governments, so there’s no reason to believe that governments cant consciously choose to increase or decrease unemployment/employment levels.
November 7th, 2007 at 8:55 pm
“The point of all this is that economies are easily manipulated by governments, so there’s no reason to believe that governments cant consciously choose to increase or decrease unemployment/employment levels.”
Bullseye.
November 7th, 2007 at 8:55 pm
Our pollies and DPF are wrong on Bananarama. I simply cannot find a single work colleague from Fiji (I have spoken to eight) who does not believe that Frankie did the right thing in chucking out an illegitimate regime and taking over.
November 7th, 2007 at 9:26 pm
You’re right about the lunch, Kimble. But so am I. This is fundemtally what I believe – that the intrinsic structure of capitalism is One-ness. In that, we are taught to believe there is one right answer, and we are taught to argue and make our point. But we could argue all day and we would still both be right – so instead, we must change our thinking to both/and rather than either/or. Lunch does cost. But lunch is also gift, and therefore free.
Secondly, I don’t believe any individual decisions are made when capitalism places value – I’m looking back over our discussion and am becoming aware that I haven’t been very clear, in the sense that I am talking about Capitalist Ideology, not induvidual people making decisions about who or what is valuable. Capitalism, as a system, rewards certain kinds of work above others, therefore it introduces the idea that one thing is more valuable than another, whether or not this translates to your or my actual belief in the value of that thing or person. I believe this idea is also intrinsic to capitalism. So perhaps I am wrong in saying One-ness. Perhaps I should say that Capitalism = Two-ness, swapping for position always, retaining the notion that one is right. Would you agree with this?
And eventually this does come to expression through individuals. You’ve used the words “free riders” today, and they are meaningful and emotional, I think. Just like the words “fat cat.” All of this indicates to be the living binary.
My question is: What is Thirdness? What is made from both/and?
November 7th, 2007 at 9:54 pm
Reading the things you write, Dad, is a bit like watching a trainwreck. You’re so freaking angry! And you keep making threats! But the worst thing is that people egg you on and they encourage you to do that and it sucks. We shouldn’t do that.
In that light, personally I’m sorry that the first time we met I wrote bullshit bravado back to you instead of being honest and telling you how the way you write affects me. I don’t like it, and it indicates to me a real, deep anger at something that is far more serious than politics could ever be.
If that apology is in any way meaningful to you, then I’m glad.
November 7th, 2007 at 10:07 pm
I have to go now, but wanted to say goodnight and thanks to all the people who’ve been swapping ideas with me, esp. Kimble. I think I have learned a bit.
So – night.
ps: Roger, stop it. It’s beneath you.
November 7th, 2007 at 10:13 pm
Robyn:
I honestly believe that you’re too nice for this place. Which isn’t to say that I don’t enjoy having you here, it’s very refreshing – just that this place has many people whose only aim in coming here is to spread their own misery. Unfortunately that’s the truth of it.
oh and by the way, if D4J has to be a part of kiwiblog and ruin everyone else’s experience I don’t see why he should get off scott free – understand, i’ve had over a year’s experience with him – he abuses people whether they abuse him first or not, it really makes no difference.
November 7th, 2007 at 10:14 pm
“There is no such thing as a free lunch” is not an ideological statement. IT, quite frankly, is stating an unavoidable fact. Choices must be made. If we had unlimited resources, and that includes unlimited time, we wouldn’t have to make choices. But we don’t so we do.
It is trite to talk about some fantastical “and/also” world where everything is possible, but in reality we live in a world where “either/or” decisions must be made.
The decision between two options requires people to decide which is the one they think is right for them. Two people can afford one only CD each, they must decide between two band they like. Person A like band Z more so his decision is that purchasing Band Z’s CD is right. Person B likes Band Y’s music more the the right decision for him is that CD.
Same decision, two different decisions on what is right.
What capitalism does is it allows Person A to listen to CDZ for a while, and Person B to listen to CDY for a while and then swap CD’s so they can both enjoy both bands. They are both better off because they can trade.
“Capitalism, as a system, rewards certain kinds of work above others”
No, it doesnt. Capitalism does not reward anyone.
The term “free rider” is not an emotive one. It describes a certain economic situation.
You have to get away from this idea that money is some sort of unnatural thing. Currency is just a medium of exchange.
“Having said this though, re: single mothers et al, isn’t there a concept somewhere that happy, healthy children are beneficial to society as whole? In this, I mean that a mother working inside the home IS valuable to society simply because children ARE society, or will be.”
The payment that mothers get for not raising monstrous children who will steal, rape and murder other people, is that other people will raise children that wont steal, rape and murder other people. Demanding anything more than this, such as income, is extortion.
And Roger, it is no surprise that you agree with that loony tune Hinamanu.
November 7th, 2007 at 10:20 pm
Go away Roger Nome. You are deliberately attacking somebody in their most vulnerable area for sport. It is a despicable action.
November 7th, 2007 at 10:22 pm
That’s very rich coming from a Mason shoe tapper dad.
November 7th, 2007 at 10:26 pm
Robyn, handle wise counsel from roger nome like you would nuclear waste
November 7th, 2007 at 10:32 pm
What a beautiful answer! I was just shutting down my machine, but I owe that a reply, Kimble.
First thing: Do you find “reward” a loaded word? If you do, I won’t use it.
Second thing: What about buying no CD at all? What about downloading the CD? What about learning guiatr instead? I like your analogy though. It is very clear.
I believe that ‘free lunch’ IS an ideological statement, because it is about perception, in the sense that use, as in the use of money, resources or time is percieved as “cost” rather than “doing.” What I mean is this: what else would you be doing other than making that person lunch? How is the decision made that time spent is cost? Isn’t doing things with your time simply living? Because it is percieved as “instead of something else,” it would confirm my thoughts about one-ness + two-ness.
So would what you wrote about the CD.
So basically, we are in agreement.
I appreciate that this may sound full on and crazy to you, but all cliches are, essientially, is packaged ideology. Ideology is, according to Richard Dyer, ”the set of ideas and representations in which people collectively make sense of the world and the society in which they live.” What is “there is no such thing as a free lunch” but an example of this?
To someone who had no concept of our society, they might read it this way: People here view the things they do as work, which requires cost. All things here are an exchange of possessions.
Goodnight, though, and thank you for being patient with me.
November 7th, 2007 at 10:33 pm
And krazykiwi, how is what you just wrote any better? I usually fuind roger’s contributions excellent.
Let’s keep it clean, people.
November 7th, 2007 at 10:34 pm
ah robyn, so new and so many e-personalities for you to scope out. it’s fun! welcome
November 7th, 2007 at 10:53 pm
Hey Kimble – I was just thinking you might reading this anarcho-feminist sci-fi book as a way of exploring some of the ideas that I think Robyn’s talking about. Basically it describes a libertarian socialist epistemology – and it’s a bloody good read to boot.
http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/science_fiction/dispossessed.html
November 8th, 2007 at 12:17 am
Well folks it looks like the bloody drongos in power have cocked up again in defence procurement this time with the Airforce’s new light helicopters.
From what i seen from Janes Defence Navy edition today at work and it appears the little birds won’t be land on the ships in rough sea’s except when its clam, don’t have a folding rotor head , the Airforce wanted 8 but are getting 5 and the tender is ass about face again like the last helicopter buy
Quoted from Jane’s Navy International
“At this stage it is unclear whether the aircraft will be equipped with a folding rotor head to allow shipboard stowage. It is understood, however, from industry sources that they will not feature a deck lock, which would limit the usefulness of the A109s to the Royal New Zealand Navy (RNZN) as the latter might wish to substitute them occasionally for its Seasprite helicopters or operate them from offshore patrol vessels.”
“Industry sources have expressed surprise that only five A109s are to be purchased by the RNZAF. Given the original stated requirement for eight aircraft, some in the industry feel that even if five helicopters can provide the number of hours required, with such a diverse range of duties the air force may find itself ’short of tail numbers’ to fulfil all demands.”
November 8th, 2007 at 1:11 am
And you would be a model New Zealander wouldn’t you Mr D4J.
November 8th, 2007 at 2:06 am
“First thing: Do you find “reward” a loaded word? If you do, I won’t use it.”
Not a loaded word. Capitalism doesnt value anything either. People do that, not the process. People value things differently, capitalism is about the freedom to do just that.
“Second thing: What about buying no CD at all?”
Exactly, what about it? What about all those other options? You can buy the CD or not buy the CD, but you cant do both. How do you decide which to do?
“How is the decision made that time spent is cost?”
Look at the word you used there. How is it that time SPENT is a cost? Spent?
“There is no such thing as a free lunch” merely points out the existence of opportunity cost. Or more accurately, its purpose is to lead you to that discovery.
Time spent doing one thing is time not spent doing another. The cost of doing one thing is the other thing foregone.
“Isn’t doing things with your time simply living?” But HOW do you spend your life? Making choices is part of life. If you want A and B, and you can have A and B, you will have A and B. But what if you can only have A or B?
The concept of Opportunity Cost doesn’t prescribe a solution, it merely illustrates the problem. Opportunity cost is a universal truth. Perception has nothing to do with it. Either you perceive the truth of the concept, or you are misinterpreting it.
Try and think of a single example involving a choice, that does not have an opportunity cost.
Robyn it seems you are getting stuck on certain words. Money. Cost. Free rider. You attach negative connotations to all these words.
November 8th, 2007 at 5:19 am
Sometimes I wonder if those who are fully immersed in the “There Ain’t No Such Thing As A Free Lunch” are those who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
November 8th, 2007 at 6:28 am
I went to have a lunch with roger nome and I found out he was a few sandwich’s short of a picnic .
November 8th, 2007 at 7:02 am
Robyn it seems you are getting stuck on certain words. Money. Cost. Free rider. You attach negative connotations to all these words.
That is it indeed, Kimble. Robyn, you do seem to be attaching a negative connotation to those terms when they are simply objects of measurement and not meaningful beyond that.
In a simpler sense.
You could choose to make that lunch. However, by taking the time to make that lunch you have chosen not to spend that time playing with kids at the orphanage or helping out at a rest home or doing volunteer work in a hospital.
Choosing one over the other does not denigrate or devalue either, but everything we do turns out to be a choice amongst multitudes of options. By forgoing the opportunity to do all those other things at that moment we are losing the chance to complete them, thus it becomes a cost to us. Even if it is not in a material or financial sense.
November 8th, 2007 at 8:11 am
Just a little bemused you used my firstname Russell.
Doesn’t matter though, right back at ya.
November 8th, 2007 at 8:18 am
Hey Redbaiter – seeing as I’m a moron, please explain how you comprehended this:
as this:
That on purpose, to have a dig? Or genuine incomprehension?
November 8th, 2007 at 10:13 am
I vote that this has been the worst thread-jacked, off topic, personally abusive, derisive, divisive and screw up thread ever.
Lots of bandwidth noise.
As far a Fiji goes (remember the actual topic anyone?). I would rather go to Raro. Much nicer and no low calibre men with high calibre rifles.
November 8th, 2007 at 10:18 am
Yes. General Debate 07 November – remember?
November 8th, 2007 at 2:44 pm
“Sometimes I wonder if those who are fully immersed in the “There Ain’t No Such Thing As A Free Lunch” are those who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.”
Anti-economist twaddle.
November 8th, 2007 at 4:12 pm
Bollocks. Making and giving the lunch to someone may be of more value to me than the cost. They get a free lunch and I get that value thus negating the cost.