General Debate 09 November 2007
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November 9th, 2007 at 12:33 pm
Hello, everyone.
Went back over the discussion the other night – I definitely see what you all are saying, but I’m having trouble explaining my main point. I DO get stuck on certain words, because in a sense they’re what I trying to find out about! What I mean is: language is NOT experience. Language is like… well, if experience were a stone, language would be the ripples on the pond you threw it in. Language is mediated by us, our thoughts, our meanings, in the sense that we use it to construct and conceptualise the universe. There are many ways of coming at it – Lacan, for example, talks about “the Real,” which he claims is experience before language – sublime, unknowable. Language comes when we try to share our real with somebody else, or when we try to make sense of it inside ourselves (I think Lacan calls the creation of language the ‘Symbolic’ phase, but I’m not 100% on that. But some of you are probably familiar with Plato or Sassure or many others who have written on this subject.) Anyway, or: “Tree” is not what a tree actually is. It is simply a word for it. Consequently, there ARE no words that are simply “that way” – we made every single one of them. Each is built and designed to contain feelings and thoughts and experience – but by no one person, by all of culture, together. So the fact that time is “spent” is meaningful, because “spent,” Kimble correctly pointed out, has lots of other meanings, and this both creates and relates to the way we think about cost and value. Likewise, Capitalism is not what is absolutely there, it is simply a system we use for making sense of the world and relating to each other. My point is, I don’t think any of you are WRONG in your explanations to me – you are all one hundred percent correct, and I absolutely understand and agree. But I am not looking for what is true INSIDE capitalism, I want to know how it is made in our thoughts, what does it tell us about ourselves? I can’t answer this on my own because I have a lot of bias, much of it invisible and unknown to me – just as you all do. But together we can build objectivity-in-subjectivity, even if none of us can crack “objectivity” alone. I hope, anyway. (This is why I have chosen ‘Kiwiblog’ to do this, rather than picking a blog that is more in line with my own political or social thoughts.)
I appreciate this is really difficult – what we are doing together is existential anthropology. Looking for our own ideology is hard (some theorists would say impossible – so would some of my professors, which should confirm manakaumum’s suspicions that I’m a bit of an academic dummy! If you’re reading, mm, half the staff at my uni would completely agree with your assessment!) However, as an artist, I know it IS possible because this is a good percentage of what making art is. That doesn’t mean it’s not bloody hard though, and I am grateful to you all for being willing to participate. I should point out that when I say OUR ideology, I mean it. This means ME too – socialism and capitalism are philosophically the same thing, even if politically they are different, since they are both built on the importance of one individual life (rather than a species,) and are both centred around a medium of exchange and ownership. We are all philosophically, or culturally, capitalist here. The main thing to understand is that I am not trying to convince you of anything or win you to my side. I believe in a system that means we don’t have to do that and I believe it can be found philosophically. (One might call me a devout Deleuzian, perhaps.)
I don’t have time to stay today, I’m sorry to say. But before I go, I will ask one question which you can discuss if you choose:
When (if) you say that competition is human nature, are you talking about yourself or other people?
Oh, and PS: Roger, if you’re out there, I hope there are no hard feelings about the other night. You’ll always be my favourite kiwiblogger. Also, I found this quote for you:
‘We will meet their capacity to inflict suffering with our pure capacity to endure suffering.’
-Martin Luther King Jnr.
November 9th, 2007 at 12:40 pm
Looks like a nice sunny weekend ahead – ideal for handing out anti-EFB posters! Kill the Bill!
November 9th, 2007 at 1:03 pm
Shame socialists aren’t (apparently) well educated enough to understand the idea of paragraphs.
November 9th, 2007 at 1:04 pm
looks like Chris Carter has canned Sunday School in churches
According to him, they will need qualified teachers just as childcare centres and the like:
http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/newsdetail1.asp?storyID=127170
November 9th, 2007 at 1:06 pm
Robyn…..well… ah….yes.
Like Lacan, I too have a thing. Something I picked up from my own meditative wanderings through existentialism (and a three pack of Cameron Crowe movies). I call it “the Kwan”.
Unlike Lacan, the Kwan is almost diametrically opposed to “the Real”. The Kwan says that thought is experience and that there is no such thing as thought without language. If something can not be communicated then how can it be real? If one were blind, deaf and dumb as well as both nasaly and touch sensitive (i.e. completely desensitised to the world) does a tree still exist? If it cannot be shown or demonstrated as such, with it’s associated label (a common nomer with which to apply said experience), then it can not be demonstrated and thus be proven.
Communication is one of the key elements that we look for when reasoning intelligence (rhetoric doesn’t count so don’t bother going to the Standard – it fairly unsubstantial). Look at dolphins, whales and chimps (maybe it is worth a visit to the standard after all). We find that the ability to communicate provides for the ability to experience in commonality. That commonality being: Language.
Good writing, though Robyn.
So, anyone seen the price of petrol later?
November 9th, 2007 at 1:06 pm
Thought Chris Knox’s “Way Better” was a really neat song apart from the lyrics, music and the sentiment behind it.
I have come up with a better version entitled “Song for Helengrad” or (“Are They Singing My Song Peter?”).
It can be sung to almost any tune you wish. I think it goes well to that old Marxist lullaby “The Red Flag”.
Now if only I could sing, play an instrument,find a backing group and a record company I could be at no.1
by Xmas and censored off the air by Jan 1st when the Suppression of Freedom Bill becomes law!
We’re the sheeple of New Zealand
Once were proud and free
But the socialists who rule us
Want to pass the EFB
All animals are equal
Old Orwell once told me
Except for Aunty Helen
And the Labour Partee
Chorus
Lets do away with Labour
Lets get shot of the lot
Lets do away with Labour
It’s the only chance we’ve got
Old Michaels got our money
He’ll never give it back
“I can spend your cash more wisely”
He would swear that on the rack
Health and education are nothing but a joke
And the best that Trev the duck can do
Is give big Tau a poke
Chorus
Lets do away with Labour
Lets chop out all the rot
Lets do away with Labour
It’s the only chance we’ve got
Our brightest are all leaving
As our business’s close down
Despite her lies we realise
Dear leader is a clown
She’d like another term
But that we could not stand
Lets vote her out without a doubt
And regain our free land
Chorus
Lets do away with Labour
Don’t put up with their rort
Lets do away with Labour
It’s the only chance we’ve got
November 9th, 2007 at 1:07 pm
Lately, even
November 9th, 2007 at 1:08 pm
Bloody good idea inventory, have you got a suggested wording?
The Government is trying to gag you
Fight for free speech and against tyrrany
Oppose the Electoral Finance Bill. Write to every MP.
See overpage for names, addresses and phone numbers of MPs or download from here: http://www.parliament.nz/NR/rdonlyres/5858C8A5-ACDF-4B35-8D7A-3ABB7B19ACDB/68480/listofmembers0511091.pdf
November 9th, 2007 at 1:11 pm
My god, has PC levels reached too far? Canning Sunday School? Unbelievable.
I’m not much of church goer myself but this is getting a bit nuts.
Typical socialist behaviour. Will shortly be replaced by collective readings every week from Beloved Leaders little red pledge book.
November 9th, 2007 at 1:12 pm
“looks like Chris Carter has canned Sunday School in churches”
Shhh Frank.. Don’t you know- it has been dictated that a person’s sexuality has no bearing on how they do their job. That Carter might be a homosexual Christian hater is an idea that you are forbidden to speak of.
I find myself asking myself so often, what the damn hell caused NZers to vote for these damn barbarians?????
November 9th, 2007 at 1:15 pm
Chris Carter is asking for a big time show down with the conservative right !!!
November 9th, 2007 at 1:18 pm
The Sunday Scholl thing is indeed true – this from the Hosue yesterday:
“Early Childhood Services—Licensing Standards
Paula Bennett: Is it now the law that a Sunday school must register as a fully licensed early childhood education centre or be closed down like the 10 gym creches that have already been closed recently?
Hon CHRIS CARTER: That has certainly been the law since 1989. We are reviewing it.
Paula Bennett: Is not the difference that National did not then go around instructing bureaucrats to shut down babysitting services, and trusted that parents actually knew best; how many more will the Minister close?
Hon CHRIS CARTER: What a curious new policy from National members: to ignore the law because they think it is bad. Well, we actually believe in fixing it up.
Hon Bill English: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. You are about to call my colleague for what I think is the final supplementary question. I draw your attention again to the Government’s habit of avoiding direct questions, so that the Opposition has to use up supplementary questions to try to get an answer. The Minister has already been asked twice how many children trigger the regulations that enable his bureaucrats to shut down Sunday schools, creches, and gym babysitting centres, and he has twice refused to answer that question. Either he does not know, which may be the case because he is a new Minister, or he just does not want to say that it is three—that might be the case. Certainly, it is outside the conventions of the House for him to continue to refuse to answer a direct question, until all the supplementary questions are used up.
Hon CHRIS CARTER: I was avoiding giving a number because I wanted it confirmed. I have just had it confirmed; it is three.
Paula Bennett: Is it not true that Sunday schools are under threat of closure because the Minister is waiting on a review, which started in the year 2003 and has been running for 5 years, when he could simply apply common sense and use his ministerial discretion to exempt under the Education Act—section 316(1)(b) for his information?
Hon CHRIS CARTER: It is curious, is it not, that that question has come from a member whose Government had the ability to do that for 9 years but did not. We have been working through this complex area of early childhood education, and I can assure the member that it will be resolved by next year.”
I can give you a categorical assurance – as an ECE service owner, I am fully aware of the licencing requirements, and my church will neither be meeting them, nor closing its Sunday School! Does this outrageous proposal apply to Mosques, Temples ansd Synagogues as well? Or is this just another “kick the Christians” policy?
November 9th, 2007 at 1:19 pm
“That Carter might be a homosexual Christian hater is an idea that you are forbidden to speak of.
I find myself asking myself so often, what the damn hell caused NZers to vote for these damn barbarians?????”
Soon the Muslims will take over and we will have to listen to the people of a failed god who had to flee their own country to a successful Christian country.
I like the way sexually repressed Muslim women stick their butts out, but having to listen to the hellish rants of their men who will enjoy parliamentary privilige is well past the time for a revoulution.
November 9th, 2007 at 1:19 pm
At the risk of prolonging Robyn’s search, a few short thoughts. Short because as a capitalist, I feel a responsibility to deliver value to my employer by giving attention to the commitment implicit in my agreement (contract) with him to deliver certain things in return for his acknowledgment given in the form of dollars as the preferred medium of exchange at the moment. As a consequence I must limit my personal pleasure (a cost to me) gained from commenting here so that I can fulfil my contract.
Robyn, I think you are on a hiding to nothing if you are searching for anything absolute. Every person has a unique set of values gained from their experiences in life. Of these, education is only a part. The rest is made up of influences imposed by the environment and that person’s interaction with it. Other people, peers, sblings, parents, wider family, the observed experiences of others and the observed effects of those experiences and responses, all shape an individual in a way which makes each person’s set of values as unique as their DNA. And there are possibly some inherited (genetic) factors that are species specific.
Now getting closer to sets of beliefs such as Capitalism or Socialism, these are best seen as collective descriptions rather than specific items as they actually are general terms each encompassing a range of attributes of a social/economic system and while a large number of people may be aggregated into one of these sets by their beliefs and values, no two people will have identical sets of values. As a result it is not possible to define absolutely a “truth” in this context. The differences between individuals are often extremely subtle and may remain hidden from the general gaze but they will be there even if they are only as small as the negotiability that each individual has over accepting or sacrificing levels of benefits in exchange for (as examples) personal comfort or welfare of an offspring.
These differences are what makes us so interesting and exciting to be around. Each person has a personality, a set of beliefs that are held to a unique level of commitment and the ability to influence the values and beliefs of others (and inevitably of self) either by just being part of their mutual experience of in a more direct way as in persuasion.
Not every Capitalist will hold the same commitment to their “contract” of exchange to an employer or client as I have and not every Socialist will claim that they are answerably only to themselves, but Capitalists and Socialists are still the best terms available to describe where they fit as a general descriptor.
The fascinating part is the big area in between where people hold views and have value sets that include factors common to both groups and then we all get confused.
Anyway my 2 cents worth,
good luck
November 9th, 2007 at 1:20 pm
“That Carter might be a homosexual Christian hater ”
By that I meant a homosexual who hates Christians.
November 9th, 2007 at 1:21 pm
” this complex area of early childhood education”
As a parent of four I would know more about this subject than this lifestyle MP and I don’t own a pink poodle !!
November 9th, 2007 at 1:30 pm
“So, anyone seen the price of petrol later?”
Ever seen a socialist drilling an oil well?? (with his own money)
November 9th, 2007 at 1:42 pm
Top writing, David!
November 9th, 2007 at 1:47 pm
Ever seen a socialist that is not a control freak ?
November 9th, 2007 at 1:48 pm
There is a cancer in our society and its name is Helen Clark.
Have a good weekend comrades !! Seeya in Aussie.
November 9th, 2007 at 1:49 pm
I am a Christian and if Chris Carter thinks I want my children taught in Sunday School by his socialist leaning teachers he has a huge fight on his hands!!! Bring it on ….
Going to Sunday School is one of the ways I hope to grow my children into decent human beings. It helps to counteract the crap they are fed at school on a weekly basis.
Margaret Wilson could do with enforcing some Commandments of her own:
I shall not drive drunk
I shall not pee in the hallway of public hotels
I shall not steal money from the public purse
I shall not lie about works of art I have not painted
I shall not take bribes
I shall not try and exclude sectors of the community from Political Debate
I shall not deny my fellow NZers freedom of expression
I shall not hit my fellow MP
need I go on?
November 9th, 2007 at 1:50 pm
It’s finally reached the point where I have to park my car and take public transport. And public transport? Sweet saints above it’s a PITA. A 3 stage bus ticket costs $4.30. It adds a whole hour and a bit to time lost in my day and that’s taking the 6am and 8pm bus/train. I’m hardly surprised that nobody wants to use public transport in Auckland.
November 9th, 2007 at 1:54 pm
Why the name Kiwiblog?
[DPF: 1) Because NZ Pundit and Kiwi Pundit were already taken.
2) Because I'm a Kiwi and this is my blog]
November 9th, 2007 at 2:00 pm
Why the name infused?
November 9th, 2007 at 2:02 pm
I know what you mean, Pascal. Everyone wants a first class public transport system…so all those other fuckers will use it and the roads will be clear.
November 9th, 2007 at 2:04 pm
I felt infused
November 9th, 2007 at 2:05 pm
This early childhood education thing is utter rubbish. They are closing the local gym creche. I love it how govt knows best.
November 9th, 2007 at 2:18 pm
So, how about that latest Roy Morgan Poll then?
NEWS : Morgan Poll :
Printer Friendly Version Printer Friendly Version E-mail It E-mail It
In New Zealand: Labour Closes Gap Further
Finding No. 4236 – November 09, 2007
In the second half of October, the New Zealand Morgan Poll finds the Labour Government has made further ground on the National Party, up 1.5% 40.5% — its highest result since January and just 0.6% below its 2005 General Election result.
During the same period, support for the Nationals fell 0.5% to 45% — its lowest result since March, although still 5.9% above its 2005 General Election result.
The Green Party vote was down 1% to 6.5%, while support for New Zealand First was up 0.5% to 3.5%.
Among the other minor parties: Maori Party 1.5% (down 0.5%); United Future New Zealand 1.5% (unchanged); and ACT New Zealand 1% (up 0.5%).
Labour + Progressive + Greens = more votes than National + …Well, no one actually.
November 9th, 2007 at 2:19 pm
Looks like the roundup worked.
November 9th, 2007 at 2:22 pm
You’re not wrong there infused. Our sector of ECE is about to have a major shake-up of licencing requirements, and it is a minefield! The government will earn no brownie points at all getting ballistic about Sunday Schools – big ups to Paula Bennett for exposing Carter’s hypocricy. I’m suddenly wondering if Maharey wasn’t a bad Min of Ed after all!!
November 9th, 2007 at 2:42 pm
Brilliant Toms. Let’s work on some headlines: “Labour still behind in polls”. “Significant majority still consider Labour unfit to govern”.
You go and shout it from the rooftops.
November 9th, 2007 at 2:42 pm
Good Lord TomS
Are you THAT worried one year from the election?
November 9th, 2007 at 2:50 pm
There’s only one poll that matters at the end of the day. It’s the last one.
November 9th, 2007 at 2:58 pm
Now now,we all know that we mustn’t suggest that a Minister of the Crown’s sexuality has any bearing on the way he/she impartially fulfills his/her duties as a loyal servant of the people.
We also must resist the temptation of assuming that; because Chris Carter subscribes to values diametrically opposed to the Judeo-Christian belief system from which our society derives its understanding of morality, any enforcement of Child-Care ratios in relation to Sunday schools are a vindictive attack on the people that have been so bold in objecting to his governments agenda.
We must also express no mis-givings about the suitability of having a Minister of Education who believes that homosexual activity is equivalent to being heterosexual, nor must we object if he moves to ensure our children are taught this.
Who knows, perhaps Chris Carter has information that Terrorism is being inculcated into impressionable young minds at Sunday Schools.
So we mustn’t object if they are subjected to a few “dawn raids”
Remember he’s from the government and he’s here to help you!
November 9th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
Somebody tell him it wasn’t the actual election and that’s still a ways off!
If this was Friday and I was about to head out to the pub I’d have a good chuckle at the “9th floor script for today”. Heh.
November 9th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
Happy to talk Polls Toms you said ..
“Labour + Progressive + Greens = more votes than National + …Well, no one actually”.
Noting that the Progressives didn’t even register in the poll its Labour 40.5% + Greens 6.5% = 47%
National 45% + UF 1.5% + ACT 1% = 47.5%
Now I know that educational excellence isn’t one of Labour’s strong points but really Toms you don’t need to parade your ignorance for all to see.
November 9th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
Going to Big Boys Toys with 21 yr old son this weekend Chance for us both to ogle the young nubile creatures that inhabit many of the stands and to also check out the cars bikesn etc etc.
Nothing a bit of lechery when you get old You will find this out in the years to come DPF.
November 9th, 2007 at 3:02 pm
Very good Reg! Of course, Carter is Minister of Education because he used to be a teacher, but according to his profile on the Parliament website, before he was a teacher he was a poultry farmer – not sure what, if anything, that has to do with anything, but then it IS Friday afternoon, and this IS a general debate!
November 9th, 2007 at 3:08 pm
Nobody pays for their kids to go to Sunday School, so how can Labour claim they have to be licenced?
November 9th, 2007 at 3:11 pm
Interesting I2;
It appears that Chris is bringing a range of life experiences to his new portfolio.
There is absolutely no reason at all why a Gay poultry farmer shouldn’t make a “hard working and conscientious” Minister of Education.
November 9th, 2007 at 3:18 pm
Ross millar: chanelling Toms, i would suggest that he is using conventional methodology that accepts (whether warranted or not) that current leaders will retain their electorate seats – this means progressives get in via Anderton. I am unsure, however, why he is not extending this generosity to ACT is another matter entirely…
November 9th, 2007 at 3:21 pm
ManukauMum – perhaps the government is trying to rewrite the Bible – you know the verse – “Where two or more are gathered, I will be there” – Labour’s version says “When three or more are gathered, our officials will be there, with forms, police checks, rules, regulations……….”
November 9th, 2007 at 3:22 pm
Reg – I think I’ll give the KFC a miss tonight, thanks all the same – “gay poultry farmer” has put me right of my tucker!!
November 9th, 2007 at 3:28 pm
Give that turkey a spin Chris ? Talk about foul tucker .
November 9th, 2007 at 3:29 pm
“When (if) you say that competition is human nature, are you talking about yourself or other people?”
I am competitive. Robyn, YOU are competitive, like it or not. Competition, like money, economy, and cost, is not a “bad” thing.
Competition between two people isnt necessarily a zero sum game.
November 9th, 2007 at 3:30 pm
How do you farm gay poultry?
November 9th, 2007 at 3:32 pm
Interesting about Sunday Schools.
The ruling is (and has been for a long time) along the lines of “any more than 3 children in a room without parents present then the “organisation” has to be registered. Common sense had always prevailed, ie that it applied to Early Childhood Centres, Creches etc. THEN ALONG CAME LABOUR AND THE PC BRIGADE. All of a sudden all hell breaks loose – the govt depts involved were taking the rules literally and enforcing them.
So, if granny is looking after 5 three year olds, or you have a birthday party with 20 5 year olds, you may get a call from the Ministry of Ed – saying YOU HAVE TO REGISTER!!
Bye-bye to Sunday Schools, Gym creches, Swimming pool creches, (both of whom look after children for approx 1 hour) granny looking after grand children for 2 hours
Its not called the Nanny State for nothing………………. believe it of not, this is not a joke.
November 9th, 2007 at 3:33 pm
I2, Can’t you see, Sunday schools will be alright as long as no more than 2 kids attend.
Listen, Chris knows best. Any group of 3 or more Christians would be bordering on dangerous.
They may be teaching them that certain life-styles are not as good as others, or that you shouldn’t steal or tell lies.
Such seditious teaching could have a detrimental impact on the pool of available list candidates for the Labour party in years to come.
November 9th, 2007 at 3:40 pm
NEWS -Rodney Hide’s on RadioLive now until 4.00 – 0800 723465 ring up and ask him about the EFB
November 9th, 2007 at 3:52 pm
Actually, it’s another way to lower the “unemployment” rate by employing another 120 peeps to administer the now-licensed Sunday Schools, employ 8 “roving” Managers to ensure that the Pastor isn’t looking laciviously at the youngins, form a committee to over see the “roving” managers and their wopping expense accounts, travel etc, made up of various consultants (with little or no experience other than they once went to Sunday School) on massive contracts to provide qulaity Sunday School Service to the nation – as long as we start all Sun School Sessions with a reading from Aunty Helens little red pledge book (paid for by taxpayers money of course after another dose of retroactive legislation) then put forward tenders calling for more parties to come up with a new Sun School curriculam (“the old King James was obviously wrong, said the Prime Minister in a statement”) awarding yet another large contract to the successful tenderer (who also went to Sunday School once), all the while negotiating a large increase in wages to the new Sunday School Teachers and Technicians Union.
Phew, all that in one breath – I need a beer.
November 9th, 2007 at 3:56 pm
Here’s a floater – what do you think the reaction would be if National commited now to a binding referendum for a review of MMP as was originally intended. That would get MSM attention and can’t see any down side given the scarcity of potential coalition partners.
November 9th, 2007 at 4:01 pm
After they get in, CW.
November 9th, 2007 at 4:03 pm
caual watcher – I like cut of your gib.
In fact a ‘Referendum Now!’ campaign would be THE perfect vehicle for this. It is non-partisan, re-asserts the public consultation and discussion so far woefully absent in the Bill’s formulation, and it would nullify those who claim it is only out there in the name of ‘big-business’.
What next eh? I want in.
Where is KK?
November 9th, 2007 at 4:06 pm
I don’t often listen to Leighton Smith, but he cranked out a beauty this morning on the Sunday schools rubbish
“If you vote for Labour or any of their supporting parties, you’re a fruitcake.”
There you go Tane Tutae – you’re a fruitcake.
November 9th, 2007 at 4:06 pm
Where have the Standard boys and girls been today? Has been blessedly – rhetoric free today however one doesn’t want to harm to them. They are after all, as children.
November 9th, 2007 at 4:14 pm
Mate, it’s Friday – union toadies don’t work on Friday!
November 9th, 2007 at 4:18 pm
Ah!
November 9th, 2007 at 4:19 pm
I cant wait for the Education Dept Inspectors to raid a church Sunday School and drag the teachers and the kids off all in front of the TV cameras. What a great look for the poof Carter and the queer Clark.
[DPF: And that's 10 demerits]
November 9th, 2007 at 4:19 pm
Lee C said “Where is KK?”
KK is offline until later tonight. He will be e-mailing me his flyer so that I can print some out and post them around the place – e-mail him at: kbfosp@gmail.com if you want a copy.
November 9th, 2007 at 4:19 pm
Boo!
November 9th, 2007 at 4:23 pm
Yay! FP! Welcome back lol!
November 9th, 2007 at 4:29 pm
“Boo!”
You couldn’t frighten anything but your own shadow , sorry but I couldn’t resist Miss Pillow fighter …. lol
November 9th, 2007 at 4:30 pm
I love the looney left logic re: the crèches and Sunday school.
My daughter goes to a private school, not a fancy one, just a good collection of similar minded people.
The school does well on ERO reports and there is strong parent input to making it work and affordable.
A couple of years ago the school tried to integrate (or other such increase in govt funding.. can’t remember what). The Labour govt of course turned them down. So between that and the continually falling state subsidy the fees have had to go up and guess what…………….. the poorer off families are unable to attend.
Good old socialist sticking up for the ordinary bloke… NOT!
They would rather cut off their nose to spite their face.
November 9th, 2007 at 4:35 pm
D4J, are you Welsh? If so, fancy a one-way all-expenses-paid trip to Leeds?
My Shout.
November 9th, 2007 at 4:36 pm
I find it rather disturbing that the sinister gummint socialists would fund chocolate flavored condoms ( Pharmac ) , but not medication for breast or prostrate cancer ??
This is a one very sick government .
November 9th, 2007 at 4:36 pm
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/11/most_ludicrous_laws.html#comment-364331
November 9th, 2007 at 4:36 pm
Just received Gerry Brownlee’s weekly video newsletter. Firstly, I wouldn’t recommend watching it on full screen, cos as you all know, Gerry’s not the most – um – how do I put this? Not the most – athletic! And full screen is just a bit much Gerry for me!
But, to the point – he talks about the EFB and the companion Appropriation whatever Bill that passed its first reading yesteray. And surprise! National opposes both say Gerry! Now I hear you say “That’s not what roger nome said, not what Tane said, not what Sam Dixon said” – well, watch the vid, and see Big Ger say it for himself. National opposes the EFB, and will repeal it when elected.
http://brownlee.co.nz/index.php?/archives/46-Video-Newsletter-No.7.html
November 9th, 2007 at 4:47 pm
But he is a poof and she is queer –
Definitions of queer
1. Deviating from the expected or normal; strange. Yep.
2. Odd or unconventional, as in behavior; eccentric. Yep.
3. Of a questionable nature or character; suspicious. Definitely.
4. Slang Fake; counterfeit. Paintings, anyone?
November 9th, 2007 at 4:48 pm
Sorry, forgot to ask if there are now demerits for stating the obvious.
November 9th, 2007 at 4:49 pm
Roy Morgan poll shows Labour up and National down, again….
http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=634
November 9th, 2007 at 4:51 pm
Sam – rational thought tells us otherwise.
November 9th, 2007 at 5:03 pm
Fighter pilot, Did you manage to actually fly ?
My word you would be a menacing sight swooping out of the ether in a tiger moth biplane firing a cap gun.
Tally Ho old chap I say what !
Jolly good show old chap ,and all that!!!
I suppose you could tow round a big banner behind your bi-plane, with Vote the Labour Party we have an Education Minister that is a normal Kiwi dad that knows what is best for you kiddies !!!!!!
November 9th, 2007 at 5:13 pm
Calculus -
It’s clearly a Walter Mitty-type pseudonym, possibly chosen whilst gazing at the balsa wood models hanging from the ceiling in the room FP has occupied for numerous years while FP’s parents despair of ever getting rid of FP or getting board out of FP.
November 9th, 2007 at 5:18 pm
Calculus, haven’t you been reading kiwiblog and such? He’s a person of..err..differing sexual persuasion and therefore not fit to be let out of a cage!
Say hi to Tintin for me would you? And just a caution over that cap’n haddock – he seems to like the sea men a bit much for those of the homophobe persuasion…
November 9th, 2007 at 5:36 pm
Sam Dixon – is that the same Roy Morgan poll that Dear Leader dismissed when it had Labour at 32.5%? Thought not!
November 9th, 2007 at 5:36 pm
Poultry farmer pays a lot of money for a new rooster.
Releases said rooster into the large fowl run.
New rooster struts over to old rooster and says “I’m running the show now!”.
Old rooster says ” Ten times round the fowl run, and I’ll beat you if you give me half a lap head start”.
Young rooster says “Bring it on!”
Hens are all cheering as both cocks are at full stretch around the chook run.
Only a couple of laps to go and the young ‘un is right on the old guy’s tail.
Next thing, BOOM!
Young rooster splattered everywhere.
Farmer with shotgun in hand says” I spend all that money and get a bloody poofter”.
November 9th, 2007 at 5:57 pm
Or a better banner could be-
Vote for Helen Clark -the mother of the nation shes has had zero children so therefore has more experience with what is best for your little kiddies.
We’re here to help and we have the experience!!
Red Blooded Roosters would be better than this pansy crew.
November 9th, 2007 at 6:01 pm
This poll cannot be read in isolation it is all about trends
The last Harald poll had National 12% ahead.
November 9th, 2007 at 6:01 pm
Explain your riddle whats Tintin!! I have heard you trolls talking about Tin Foil hats is this what you meant??
November 9th, 2007 at 6:05 pm
Lead story on 3News – John Campbell has been leaked the police evidence against the “Tuhoe 16″ – 3News says there are legal difficulties over it, but they believe it is in the public interest to broadcast it – and will on Campbell Live at 7pm!
November 9th, 2007 at 6:09 pm
I cringe to think how this Sunday School thing could be used as a weapon:
“I don’t like how involved your church is in politics,
…what’s that? You’re operating an unlicensed ECE center every
Sunday?
…well, looks like you’ll have to back down or face a hefty fine and the
closure of your Sunday School”
http://frankobservations.wordpress.com/2007/11/09/sunday-schools-go-bye-bye/
Quite easy to threaten those churches (and maybe other institutions?) that dissent. And could very well scare many into submission, or at least keeping quiet. (Trust me, it won’t scare mine…)
November 9th, 2007 at 6:09 pm
anyone know Peter Dunne’s email address?
November 9th, 2007 at 6:16 pm
peter.dunne@parliament.govt.nz ?
November 9th, 2007 at 6:17 pm
Catwoman,
Part of comment posted at 3.32pm : Common sense had always prevailed.
Common sense is not that common in NZ anymore, it is slowly but surely being replaced with stupidity.
November 9th, 2007 at 6:18 pm
chandler -
it’s worse than that…The Klarkbot obviously has Elizabeth I delusions and will soon be implementing a new state religion with her as the head of the Church…fuck me, imagine her Ten Commandments!
November 9th, 2007 at 6:23 pm
buggerlugs – i’m sure i’ve tried that a while back and it bounced. will try again. thanks.
November 9th, 2007 at 6:26 pm
Dunne probably makes them all bounce, hence his complete lack of a grip on reality (i.e. the general public)
November 9th, 2007 at 6:34 pm
Maybe his emails is Prissy.peter@parliament.govt.nz
and if you want to send an email to winston just prick@parliament.govt.nz – that would go straight to him apparantly
November 9th, 2007 at 6:37 pm
Hey KK; you could try pdunne@ministers.govt.nz.
I’m sure Monty’s suggestions will get bounced back; just a hunch.
November 9th, 2007 at 6:38 pm
From the latest Morgan poll:
“The vote for the Labour Government has surpassed the 40% mark for the first time since January. Conversely, the vote for John Key’s Nationals (45%) is at its lowest level since March.
“Since early August, the Labour vote is up 9.5% (from 31% to 40.5%), whereas the National vote is down 5.5% (from 50.5% to 45%) for the same period.”
Join with me chums: Huzzah! Huzzah!
November 9th, 2007 at 6:55 pm
NEWSFLASH: The average wealth of New Zealand households is just 56% of their Australian counterparts. Go figure.
Australian figures: A$ 563,000 (Just releasted)
New Zealand figures: A$ 315,000 ($375k NZ @ .84 exchange rate)
Sources:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22730147-601,00.html
http://www.spicers.co.nz/Articles/Spicers-HSI/MenuId/118.aspx
November 9th, 2007 at 7:02 pm
I believe polls about as much as I do in the possibility of the existence of a HONEST NZ politician , heard John Key Speak today and I fell asleep …. oh well Auntie Helen will steal and buy the next election and so continues the mass kiwi migratory patterns which don’t look set to change , yawn , yawn , its really sad .
November 9th, 2007 at 7:03 pm
Idiotboy – are we huzzahing this poll putting the kiss of death on a pack of leech self-indulgent scumsucking bottomfeeders, or just huzzahing because the National Party is maintaining its position as preferred party?
November 9th, 2007 at 7:05 pm
Just heard Brent Edwards on Focus on Politics on National Radio. The reporting of EFB & Appropriations Bill had soundbytes 4:1 in favour of the government with the fewer National soundbytes being much shorter and obviously chosen where a lack of clarity was on evident. By contrast Cullen was at his smarmy half-truth best and given the floor. Labour Radio at work!
November 9th, 2007 at 7:09 pm
Two minutes with Cullen and I’d have him running from the chamber screaming in horror – lol
November 9th, 2007 at 7:19 pm
buggerlugs –
the poll suggests nothing to support your point that it puts “…the kiss of death on a pack of leech self-indulgent scumsucking bottomfeeders” (i assume you mean Labour). A kiss of death would be if Labour were sliding in the polls (note: it is actually National that is sliding in the polls). To suggest such a thing even in jest is dimwitted.
Anyways (just to make myself absolutely clear to the intellectually incapable among us) – we are huzzahing that labour will win the next election and rule for eternity everafter. I call you all again to join with me:
Huzzah! Huzzah!
November 9th, 2007 at 7:43 pm
you are soooooooooooo appropriately named boy , dam idiot gives me a headache , my brain hurts Auntie Helen
November 9th, 2007 at 8:09 pm
Great editorial in today’s Dominion-Post – have just blogged about it
http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2007/11/dom-post-slams-government.html
November 9th, 2007 at 8:10 pm
the poll suggests nothing to support your point that it puts “…the kiss of death on a pack of leech self-indulgent scumsucking bottomfeeders” (i assume you mean Labour).
QED it suggests nothing to support your fucked up reasoning that those leech self-indulgent scumsucking bottomfeeders (i mean Labour, NZ First, Jim the Handout King, the Greens, Dunny’s Lot, and other assorted pinkos, just for clarification) will govern after the next election.
November 9th, 2007 at 8:12 pm
In an earlier post it was intimated that over 3 children in a room without their parents need a suitably qualified person present.
Does this mean if my wife and/or I look after 5 or 6 of our grandchildren and their parents bugger off somewhere else – as they are prone to do without notice – we need to get a suitably qualified person in?
November 9th, 2007 at 8:14 pm
I meant to add that if this is the case and even if Carter wasn’t homosexual I would still call him
`a queer prick’!!!!
November 9th, 2007 at 8:17 pm
and a fruitcake. unless it attracted demerits. because fruit is a derogatory term for chutney ferrets.
November 9th, 2007 at 8:19 pm
and backyard gardeners.
November 9th, 2007 at 8:28 pm
Buggerlugs:
o yes it does!
”
The “landslide” that the polls suggested to Key was based on nothing more than his “do nothing” honeymoon, massive media-assisted faux-outrage over minor Labour gaffes, and the usual putrid pottage of misogynistic/victim-bashing dogwhistling and “tax-cut” vote buying.
Now the inoculations and gutter stuff is coming back to haunt them. The honeymoon glow is fading fast and the talkback turkeys attracted to the ranting and femme-fear are beginning to see a directionless and rather effete wide-boy in charge of a bumbling and insipid coterie of Hollow has-beens.
At the same time, the very ranting that attracted the good ole boys has also precluded the minor-party partnerships that the mythical landslide hoped to avoid.
”
http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=634#comments
Anyone for another round of huzzahs?
November 9th, 2007 at 9:08 pm
“faux outrage” – the Labour “phrase-of-the-week”
Did you read the Dom-Post editorial today idiotboy? It’s good!
November 9th, 2007 at 9:09 pm
Just picking up on the DomPost editorial that IV2 mentions above about the electoral funding row, the end section cuts to the chase quite well:
“It is incredible that any social democrat party would countenance such a move but when a party faces possible defeat, it can elevate ambition over ethics. Miss Clark seems to be calculating that the public interest in election spending is over – that, while voters got seriously angry in 2006, this latest row will be an overnight wonder.
National needs to ensure she is wrong. ”
The Nats need to have a change of strategy in The House during question time, instead of Key attacking Clark again about tax cuts (which was most successful this week) he needs to ask some pointed questions about electoral funding to give this issue a lot more coverage especially on the TV news. English did a good job tearing that wanker Burton to pieces but it could be more news worthy if Key takes the fight to the Government. Until this issue get a lot more air time on the idiot box nothing will happen.
Just a quick word about the latest Roy Morgan poll. Labour picked up support from the Greens 1%, the Nat 0.5%, Maori Party 0.5%. With the Xmas break not far away now the polls don’t really mean a lot until the 2008 political year starts in February. Ya don’t win elections leading the polls 10-11 months out from an election. They mean very little.
November 9th, 2007 at 9:46 pm
That article is crap.
So Helen Clark is gonna deny the kiddies their classrooms and the poor, frail old folk their hip replacements so she can have some airbrushed photos of herself. Oh that devilish Helen!
This dickhead is not interested in presenting the facts in a fair and balanced way – he is just trying to make people angry…
“Miss Clark seems to be calculating that the public interest in election spending is over – that, while voters got seriously angry in 2006, this latest row will be an overnight wonder.
National needs to ensure she is wrong.”
In other words: National needs ensure people get “seriously angry”.
You guys just lap this crap up – dont you.
November 9th, 2007 at 10:18 pm
This from Bill English
http://www.national.org.nz/Article.aspx?ArticleID=11399
And stuff from Gerry too all in one day….they might be on a role
November 9th, 2007 at 10:21 pm
Regarding the Polls the left grouping of Labour and the Greens have just about the same percentage as they did at the last Election slight more if anything.
So the National Party has to get over 47% to Govern.
iI not it, will be the unworkable nat/uf/act/moari.
Therefore our game has to be lifted.
Its a big ask and the way John and the team are performing doesn’t fill me with hope
November 9th, 2007 at 10:22 pm
I missed Campbell Live – what is the leaked evidence?
November 9th, 2007 at 10:31 pm
Is this what Gerry was talking about?
Gerry Brownlee: I have in my possession a document that sets out the fact that National was happy for a rollover, provided it would lead to a much shorter election period.
Hon Dr Michael Cullen: What I can confirm, thanks to the very helpful intervention by Mr Gerry Brownlee, is that Labour’s position is exactly the same as National’s on the parliamentary spending bill, except that National members want a shorter period of time for electoral spending because they have so much money in their pockets they cannot spend it if the limitations in that regard start on 1 January.
November 9th, 2007 at 10:39 pm
Max – they weren’t allowed to run the story – the Crown Prosecutor threatened them with prosecution so they had to pull it. Nanny State is alive and well tonight!
November 9th, 2007 at 10:40 pm
No idiotbyt – what Gerry says in the video is that the EFB is a crock of shit, and National will repeal it when the become the government.
November 9th, 2007 at 10:44 pm
Not surprised that Chris Carter earned his living handling Cocks before joining up with a bunch of Dicks, it`s called unnatural progression I guess. I wonder if the leaks[tui] will get investigated[tui] also wondering what it costs to watch Tuhoe for 12 months?? Sky costs me about a grand to watch heaps of swearing and watch lots of Terrorists and killing and sex and stuff.I do draw the line at dressing up in black though.
November 9th, 2007 at 10:47 pm
Well, ‘John and the team’ are basically asleep at the wheel at present.
They really are coming across as “Dumb and Dumber.”
When you can witness a government with such a slight grasp on the majority such as Labour waltz a Bill such as the EFB onto the statute books, it beggers belief.
IMHO, any oppostion Party worth its salt would have seen this action as the insult it is, and got angry, very angry. They should have rained s**t on the government – daily. But this opposition – their ‘battleplan’ appears to be ‘Thankyou Ma’am, may I have another?”
My view is that the Nats are not committed to gaining power. Interested in the idea, perhaps, but I see little evidence of committment.
I’m no political strategian,, though, so I’m sure that they must have something awesome just around the corner.
I’ve said they have until Christmas, let’s see….
Idiotboy – I fear that you are right.
November 9th, 2007 at 10:58 pm
Will Labour call an early election? – they should, because National have wated roughly four useful months of campaigning already.
November 9th, 2007 at 11:14 pm
lee, maidennz and iv2 – you’ve got mail
November 9th, 2007 at 11:36 pm
Cheers KK
BTW – John Key has posted a response to my comments on his site today
http://johnkey.co.nz/index.php?/archives/214-SPEECH-National-Press-Club.html#c1184
November 9th, 2007 at 11:44 pm
Yes please – anger over apathy any day. and it’s a particularly applicable response when the incumbent government – whatever it’s style or leaning – abuses voters’ trust by loading the electoral dice in its own favour.
November 10th, 2007 at 9:48 am
Idiot boy quotes the lack of standard as a source and still wishes to be taken seriously?
It is only slightly sillier than Roger Nome quoting wiki as his research for his thesis.
Made me think. Years ago you used to be able to buy bubblegum with all sorts of trivia written on the inside of the wrappers. God I wished I had hung onto those. It would put the level of my sources slightly above that of these two.
November 10th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
“It is only slightly sillier than Roger Nome quoting wiki as his research for his thesis.”
This is a defamatory fabrication Bok- retract and apoligise please.
November 11th, 2007 at 10:35 am
So are you going to retract your defamatory allegations against DPF Roger? You do make them a lot, particularly in the field which his business operates in!
You know, I used to have a lot of respect for the tenacity with which you posted. Nowadays though you come across more like a snotty child who has not yet experienced anything.