General Debate 23 November 2007

November 23rd, 2007 at 12:30 am by David Farrar

TGIF

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48 Responses to “General Debate 23 November 2007”

  1. natural party of govt (461 comments) says:

    Topic proposal: What has been the worst political decision in New Zealand recent political history (lets leave the Waitara purchase aside)?

    There has been a lot of talk about how good Australian tax rates are compared to New Zealand. This is unarguable, but the analysis often leaves out some important factors.

    The first is that Australians pay a flat tax of 1.5% to Medicare but the 2nd and more important one is that Australians pay 17% of their wages into compulsory superannuation schemes.

    So someone on a wage of 20 000 dollars in New Zealand pays 19% tax, while in Australia their wages are deducted by 18.5% into compulsory social insurance schemes.

    So gradually retirees are moving off dependence on the taxpayer and equally the Australian government has no need to have the equivalent on the Cullen super fund.

    What would New Zealand’s tax system be like today if we had a similiar scheme running since 1975?

    So my nomination for worst political decision ever, the one that has the greatest and most deleterious impact on our present economy is National’s Dancing Cossacks and the abolition of the Roger Douglas compulsory superannuation scheme of 1975.

    Any defenders of that decision or any alternative nominations?

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  2. cubit9f (356 comments) says:

    I agree. The impact of the scheme on NZ’s economy, the state of social development and overall level of economic and social security was an opportunity lost.

    However like all decisions in politics Muldoon was playing to his constituency who could not see any benfit for them so the offer of a very attractive super scheme right then for them was an instant vote grabber.

    An average wage scheme at age 60. Wow. Overseas travel by the 60 pluses has never been so great.

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  3. David Farrar (1,899 comments) says:

    Quite a bit of what Muldoon did could qualify.

    I rate legislating out the option to renew the privately managed prison contract as pretty bad. It was a lose-lose decision and may have legislated away the one chance we had to reform the public prison service which is appallingly corrupt.

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  4. dad4justice (8,238 comments) says:

    The justice system is appallingly dysfunctional . It’s pretty bad when crown prosecution refuse to act on evidence which was imperative to a fair trial of a father I’ve been assisting. The morning of the trial ( Monday last ) in Timaru after the jury was sworn the judge had no option but to declare a mistrial . I said to the hateful Ashburton demon Sarah dyke – get a new job lady as you are a hated and bent pig . She went red in the face and the judge went that will be enough Mr B . I walked out laughing at the stunned fools . Nothing in the paper about the huge bulls up from the crown . You know what the dyke demon said in a catty voice ; ” I don’t care . ” About sums up the attitude of the cops in kiwiland . Rotten bastards are dangerous dumb wits !!

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  5. Put it away (2,880 comments) says:

    D4J – and how do you think an outburst like that helped with the case you were ‘assisting’ ? With friends like that in court who needs enemies.

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  6. Craig Ranapia (1,915 comments) says:

    Meanwhile a Friday Funny (at least, if it’s not happening to you):

    Gordon Brown has been dragged into the centre of the lost personal data crisis after it emerged that ministers ignored a series of warnings that security procedures in Government departments urgently needed to be reviewed.

    During his time as Chancellor, the Treasury and other departments were told repeatedly that slack practices among officials created a serious risk of confidential information falling into the wrong hands.

    Only a few weeks ago, the Government insisted the current enforcement regime for data protection was “fit for purpose” – despite a Lords committee warning over the summer that steps needed to be taken to improve it.

    As the scandal over the loss of 25 million personal records escalated, the Chancellor, Alistair Darling, was accused of misleading parliament by saying a “junior official” at HM Revenue and Customs was to blame for the loss of the data, whereas email evidence shows he was told two senior managers had authorised the procedure.

    He was also said to have misled MPs over the reason he delayed announcing the loss of the child benefit records for 10 days.

    Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/11/21/ncustoms421.xml

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  7. Lance (2,662 comments) says:

    My nominations for worst ever political decisions are Cullens nationalising private accident insurance for ideaologiclay driven interests. Fuck… what a trail of descruction that left.
    And the extremly odeous Waitakere Ranges Protection bill. More ideaologicaly driven shit. If you like something someone owns… steal it on behalf of the state and if anyone objects ban the meetings of those opposed.

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  8. Lance (2,662 comments) says:

    Sorry
    The spell checked version.. ah-hemm

    My nominations for worst ever political decisions are Cullens nationalizing private accident insurance for ideological driven interests. Fuck… what a trail of destruction that left.
    And the extremely odious Waitakere Ranges Protection bill. More ideologically driven shit. If you like something someone owns… steal it on behalf of the state and if anyone objects ban the meetings of those opposed.

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  9. slightlyrighty (2,475 comments) says:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/feature/story.cfm?c_id=1501118&objectid=10477812

    great cartoon from the herald.

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  10. Ross Miller (1,704 comments) says:

    The latest revelation from the Education Ministry confirms that Madeline Satchell has been essentially blacklisted by the elements in the Public Service more concerned about enhancing their relationships with Labour than protecting the supposed neutrality of their profession.

    The day of reckoning is fast approaching …. less than 340 days and counting. Good Public Servants have nothing to fear but others ….Prebble/Logan et seq ??????????

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  11. Seamonkey Madness (328 comments) says:

    Anyone read Chris Trotter’s latest diatribe on why it is evil to be “rich”?

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  12. Lindsay Addie (1,533 comments) says:

    Re the EFB and all the diatribes from the left about the Exclusive Brethren I have a question.

    Can anyone show conclusive proof (ie. voting or other data etc) that anything the EB’s did at the last election actually benefited the National Party at the 2005 elections and convinced voters to actually for the Nats?

    Anything other than hard facts isn’t a good enough answer.

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  13. Lindsay Addie (1,533 comments) says:

    oops missed a word, should have said:

    “and convinced voters to actually VOTE for the Nats?”

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  14. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    There’s so many billions of dollars stolen from the productive and wasted on buying the votes of the unproductive, and on political favouritism and cronyism and corruption, its hardly worth making any comment on such a paltry amount, however, after reading the article on Stuff this morning, it just struck me that of all the money wasted, not much would be more pointlessly and fruitlessly spent than the $19000 allowance to Helen Klark for “clothes and grooming”.

    I mean, evidence of socialist mismanagement and waste is everywhere, but every time you see Helen Klark in public, you have to wince at how horrible she looks. Forget the face, its a lost cause, but the clothes?? Where the damn hell is the $19,000 going? To some sad arsed commie fashion ‘guru’ who learned her trade dressing Mao Ze Dong? Christ, my old grannie could do better with $40 spent at the Salvation Army store.

    And another thing- In the same article, it points out that MPs now get an allowance for “koha” ( a euphemism for bribe money). What a bunch of damn arrogant criminals we have in parliament. Just how low is this country going to sink before reality puts the brakes on?

    FFS, it never ceases to amaze me what NZers will tolerate. I’d like to see the returns relating to the expenditure of this damn “koha”. I wonder how many racist socialist cronyist loser parasite palms are being greased with my hard earned dosh by these crooks cronyists and frauds who call themselves politicians. What a friggin basket case outfit. Un fucken believable.

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  15. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    Lindsay, Labour needed an ‘enemy’ to whip up fear, uncertainty and doubt in the mind of the swinging voter. it’s an old socialist trick (redbaiter can cite chapter and verse of the appropriate manual…). old as the tirck is, it still worked as the ‘fear of EBs’ drove voters to Labour

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  16. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    … forget the face, its a lost cause

    lol but disagree. photoshop works miracles.

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  17. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    (redbaiter can cite chapter and verse of the appropriate manual…)

    Election Rigging Manual, by Joe Stalin. (Alternative title, its not who collects the votes, its who counts the votes) Chapter 4. “What to do when the stolen money runs low and you’re still losing” Paragraph 4- “Don’t ever talk about how great is socialism” Line 23- Look for a smear- must involves charges of lying that cannot be rebutted and also preferably involve colluding with religious zealots. (This is a strategy that goes down well with our progressive media plants)

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  18. Seamonkey Madness (328 comments) says:

    RB,

    Quite frankly, I’m surprised it’s only $19,000.
    ;)

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  19. Lindsay Addie (1,533 comments) says:

    krazykiwi,

    I know you’re right but I’d really like some of the resident lefties to front with some facts for a change.

    Also re the EFB, Annette King has been moaning about the questions in the House that Bill English has been asking about the EFB clauses. She thinks that he goes into too much of detail about what clauses mean. But isn’t that what the opposition is for, to challenge and ask questions like English has been asking?

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  20. hinamanu (2,352 comments) says:

    “Quite a bit of what Muldoon did could qualify.”

    I always ponder on how this country would be now if Robs ‘think big’ had progressed and we were virtually self sustaining energy wise.

    This was the big idea anyway. Labour scuttled it as soon as they got in.
    Possibly, if Robs iniative was as true as the day is long, the most criminal political act to be perpetrated in this country.

    That is, if ‘think big’ was as good as we were lead to believe.

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  21. Inventory2 (10,342 comments) says:

    English and Finlayson have really done their homework on the EFB, and that has been their strategy to attack the Bill IMHO – as the old saying goes “the devil is in the detail” – and by asking multiple questions on the detail of the EFB, they have managed to expose just how much devil there is.

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  22. Inventory2 (10,342 comments) says:

    Lindsay Addie said “krazykiwi,

    I know you’re right but I’d really like some of the resident lefties to front with some facts for a change.”

    And so say all of us Lindsay – but patience of that magnitude is not a virtue I’ve been blessed with!

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  23. hinamanu (2,352 comments) says:

    “What a friggin basket case outfit. Un fucken believable.”

    Loud hailers Red

    Get them while you can !!

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  24. toby1845 (194 comments) says:

    “…Australians pay a flat tax of 1.5% to Medicare ”

    And many New Zealanders pay more than that for medical insurance, to reduce their own reliance on our Third World health system.

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  25. Reg (539 comments) says:

    Newstalk ZB quotes Finlayson in Parliament yesterday re: Labours disrespect of submitters to the Select Committee.

    “Mr Benson-Pope didn’t take the evidence of one witness, and told him to go and join the Exclusive Brethren.”

    This is a committee of Parliament soberly condidering a proposed law of a constitutional nature, and a member of that committee seeks to intimidate a submitter by linking him with a group his government has successfully cowered into silence by the use of “hate speech”

    I leave it to D4J to explain how decent NZers feel about that!

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  26. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Quite frankly, I’m surprised it’s only $19,000.”

    Well, overall its the tip of the iceberg. This bunch of damn crooks and thieves is getting royally paid to inflict all the pain and suffering upon us, and it mystifies me that this is so seeing this is meant to be a democracy, and they’re only there doing what they do BECAUSE NZERS VOTED FOR THEM.

    The most unbelievable rort is the superannuation scheme. The bunch of boozing freeloading snoozing stealing regulating interfering moralizing thieves and losers are guaranteed $2.50 for every dollar they put in. What a fucken lark. .. but NZers keep voting for it..

    Then there’s the $460 a week accommodation allowance.

    Meanwhile, top executives in that disgracefully partisan and cronyist entity totally polluted by socialist politics laughingly called the “Public Service” are raking in half a million a year.

    ..and Nzers keep voting for it..

    This place reminds me of Russia, where decades after Stalin’s passing, there’s still lots of little old Soviet numbskulls running around lamenting the murdering totalitarian scum’s departure.

    Mind you, when one reads the mindless slavish devotion to Klark that comes from the Labour propaganda team that stink up this forum, its not hard to understand how they get that way.

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  27. PaulL (5,987 comments) says:

    I’m pretty sure that Australians don’t pay 17% of their income to super. 9% is the norm. Are you talking about payroll taxes (which aren’t really social security to me, they’re just another state tax).

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  28. Inventory2 (10,342 comments) says:

    My friend Andrew has sent the following e-mail to John Key – I’ll post the response on my own blog when he forwards it – good challenge to JK though!

    “Hi John,

    I marched in Wellington today. Good event despite Labours youthful attack drones!

    I have a question for you. I understand that a National government would repeal the EFB. This is good.

    Can you tell me if you would commit to pardon and strike from the record any convictions brought under the EFB ?

    The assumption here is that such a pardon would only be applied to offences in respect of the newly introduced, draconian offences.

    Keen to hear from you.
    #5 Andrew on 2007-11-21 18:59 (Reply)”

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  29. dad4justice (8,238 comments) says:

    “Get them while you can !!”

    Are you talking about the latest MP pay rise ? Panty slut boy will be able to book in for more whippings from hairy arm -pitted bush pigs ! Merry Christmas Miss Hinomoo . As far as hate speech goes – guilty sir , blog attack Ch Ch Press March , PM and Children’s Com complaints to Helen’s gals in the police. No arrest YET ?? And, to that backwards twitter that asked how my WINZ referred distressed dad went with multiple representative charges in Court, well lets say the feminazi bitch cop that destroyed is life , oops sorry Ms Dyke will be sacked by Christmas . Please Sandra , hows the senator in Washington darling ??? Stop laughing Egg O”Connor . Justice is coming Howard and Rob !!

    Can I expect to be arrested under the smelly anti freedom of speech bill ? I will go down fighting . News flash on lickspittle liarbour TV – d4j arrested today on specific orders from Auntie Smellon and her twisted witches and is proud to be celled up as NZ’s first political prisoner .

    Welcome sir , come in and join the delights of this communist Helengrad !!

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  30. Pascal (1,969 comments) says:

    Roger Nome: This might be of interest to you. I think.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=5&objectid=10477932&pnum=0

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  31. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Welcome sir , come in and join the delights of this communist Helengrad !!”

    Tone it down a bit D4J. You’ll give your devoted fan club, those small minded cowards cheats liars and assorted left wing scum over at KBB an apoplectic fit… :)

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  32. dad4justice (8,238 comments) says:

    Redbaiter ; I wish my devoted fan club could come fishing with me and the lads one day , baecuse my cray pots need putrid lures to attract the big bastards . Every crackpot has a name – eh Tane . The gnomer pot seems to fill of holes for some strange reason ?

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  33. Pascal (1,969 comments) says:

    D4J: and is proud to be celled up as NZ’s first political prisoner

    You might have to fight that chap that got nailed for Sedition for that right.

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  34. dad4justice (8,238 comments) says:

    Oh yes forgot about that Pascal . It is unbelievable that the public servants that work under this present government are all to scared to speak out against widespread corruption .The bureaucracy has been well and truly politicized by Helen’s mob !! Money over consciences !!The tragedy of all his government nonsense is the enormous damage to the self esteem levels of many bewildered citizens who are just simply saying enough is enough – thats it am going across the ditch, stuff the liberal breakdown family brigade !! The socialists in New Zealand are into the fractured family lifesytle, as it pays well for the judges and pollies . Talk about a country in dire straights . What a disgrace to the word integrity , kiwi socialism is endorsed by slime balls who suck !!!

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  35. freethinker (691 comments) says:

    IV2 – I think Key should go further and retrospectively repeal the bill thus giving the prosecutors a headache and sending a clear message to the electors that a vote for National will effectively allow civil disobedience. I’m not sure you will get a reply however as Key appears not to have realised that Nationals fortunes changed after Brash’s Orewa speech made it clear there was a difference.

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  36. Brin (7 comments) says:

    On another subject, this just announced on Newstalk ZB:
    Police have laid 15 counts of bribery and 25 counts of attempting to pervert justice against Taito Phillip Field. He’s due to appear in the Manukau District Court on Monday.

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  37. cathi (34 comments) says:

    Yep, it’s here – http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10477945

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  38. dad4justice (8,238 comments) says:

    Didn’t Helen Clark once say she would stand behind TPF’s credibility as a Labour MP ?

    40 friggin charges , it that sub standard Liarbour policy !!

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  39. dad4justice (8,238 comments) says:

    Will the Prime Minister be involved in Court proceedings against TPF ?

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  40. Pascal (1,969 comments) says:

    http://theyworkforyou.co.nz/

    I just found that. How handy.

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  41. Frank. (607 comments) says:

    At long last. The tip of the iceberg? I have to wonder whether he will be charged under what I consider the most appropriate Section of the Crimes Act 1961

    102 Corruption and bribery of Minister of the Crown

    1) Every Minister of the Crown or member of the Executive Council is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years who corruptly accepts or obtains, or agrees or offers to accept or attempts to obtain, any bribe for himself or any other person in respect of any act done or omitted, or to be done or omitted, by him in his capacity as a Minister or member of the Executive Council.

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  42. dad4justice (8,238 comments) says:

    After reading that Frank it is obvious this is extremely serious and the Prime Minister will have to be called to give evidence . Is the trial due to start before the election ? I hope so ?

    Nice link Pascal; however politicians wouldn’t work in an iron lung , how can they help anybody else ? Cheers mate .

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  43. side show bob (3,660 comments) says:

    Yes Seamonkey madness I had the displeasure of reading the commie bullshit of the pig trotter. What a peice of trailer trash this man is. So thoses marching are deemed to be the “owning class” and all the rest of NZ society are but servants to the “owning class”. So when the left march we can take it that this is the “bludger classes” For fucks sake this mans mental state must be in serious question. He would say anything to promote his bent and twisted view of life. If pig trotter doesn’t like the “owning classes” I wish he would fuck off, North Korea would be right up pig trotters alley they are all servants there.

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  44. natural party of govt (461 comments) says:

    ““…Australians pay a flat tax of 1.5% to Medicare ”

    And many New Zealanders pay more than that for medical insurance, to reduce their own reliance on our Third World health system.

    Actually Australians on more than 50 000 a year are forced to take out private medical insurance or they have to pay an additional 1% flat tax on all income.

    The medicare levy in no way covers the cost of public health in Australia.

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  45. hinamanu (2,352 comments) says:

    “Police have laid 15 counts of bribery and 25 counts of attempting to pervert justice against Taito Phillip Field.”

    Another brown boy bites the dust.

    But I have to say, at the risk of sounding naieve, Blatant political corruption has never been a huge concern in this country. I know I’m sounding very ignorant but out and out bribery is very rare here.

    Considering this countries long political history, our politicians have done very well for their reputations. NZP force as well.

    Although there definitely has to be real reasons why the National govt wanted to turn a blind eye to the wine box affair. Then Bill Birch had the cheek to say he wanted to retire because he smelt a rat in politics,, I mean he helped M Fay and co do a hop to Europe with millions,,, and millions.

    Labour of course let French terroists go free.

    See Helen, people have memories. And its only a year till next November. And yes, if it looks like a threat and sounds like a threat, it probably is.

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