Herald exposes website poll hacker
Now that’s quick service!
I blogged this morning that the Herald should publish the IP address of the person or persons multiple voting in their online polls, and they have.
A person at 222.152.66.116. (222-152-66-116.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) voted 5,000 times in around 10 minutes.
As I said this morning, this has now happened around ten times to online polls, and without fail it has always been someone changing a poll which wasn’t good for Labour to one which was good for Labour.
I wonder if the hacker has breached the computer crimes section of the Crimes Act and one could get a warrant to reveal the customer who was using the IP address at that time. I don’t want them prosecuted, but suspect revealing their identity would be incredibly interesting.
Anyway kudos to the Herald for taking the time to expose what happened, and for putting in steps to stop a repeat.
November 13th, 2007 at 2:42 pm
wonder if the hacker has breached the computer crimes section of the Crimes Act and one could get a warrant to reveal the customer who was using the IP address at that time.
You mean lay charges against someone aligned to the Labour Party? That will be a first!
November 13th, 2007 at 2:44 pm
useful, as well, was the corrected outcome, after the hacker’s inputs were disregarded:
>>The correct result was 3259 votes, with 2626 (81%) voting “yes” and 633 (19%) saying “no”.
November 13th, 2007 at 2:46 pm
No comment from you DPF on whether somebody who posted on your site around that time used that IP address? Whilst the address is dynamic, they don’t usually change unless you log out and back in again. Someone who generated that volume of traffic is unlikely to be on dial up, so odds are that the ip might stay the same for a few days…
Having said that, I still argue as I did on the other thread that I don’t think there was a law broken, and that if the Herald are stupid enough to leave the hole open then you would have to expect it would be exploited. I think it would be a little unethical to “out” the culprit, notwithstanding that your privacy policy allows you to do so. I think you would feel a little dirty afterwards, even if were to turn out to be Tane or one of his friends.
[DPF: I have of course checked the comment logs and that IP address has not been used here]
November 13th, 2007 at 2:47 pm
As I have posted elsewhere we must know who this person is regardless of their political affiliations. They have acted against everyone of us who believes in freedom and democracy by belittling the process.
I say hang draw and quartering would not be too sever a punishment.
Boiling in oil as well if it turns out they are a Socialist supporter.
November 13th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
Heh. “too sever a punishment” is pretty funny in the context of drawing and quartering….
November 13th, 2007 at 2:54 pm
Nasty post DPF, if they were a big business supporter you would be defending their “freedom of speech”
Not good sir, not good at all.
[DPF: Sonic should apply for a job with Diebold with his approval of rigged electronic polls!]
November 13th, 2007 at 2:57 pm
Sonic:
That’s a cowardly smear. How does push-polling of this magnitude amount to responsible freedom of speech?
November 13th, 2007 at 2:59 pm
sonic – you have been awol for a while and as coincidence is often a fine thing.
Was it you????
November 13th, 2007 at 3:02 pm
“I don’t want them prosecuted, but suspect revealing their identity would be incredibly interesting.”
Is it not somewhat naieve to suggest exposing identities would not lead to prosecutions. If this was not the case, individuals would submit openly without fear of recrimination.
The Labour party also don’t want to be exposed if they have a part in this.
Although I am stating the obvious, the original question baited simplicity.
It should be taken for granted the act itself was political. It was also abusive and destructive. In the US it would probably be seen as a threat to homeland security.
Certainly if more of it occurs and the govt remains silent, the opposition won’t. Or will the govt wait until the problem swells then bring about more oppression to the internet?
November 13th, 2007 at 3:02 pm
“How does push-polling of this magnitude amount to responsible freedom of speech”
How does it differ from a secret cult trying to buy an election. I am condoning neither but the hypocrisy from you guys over this is breathtaking.
Utterly breathtaking.
[DPF: I have said several times that the EB should have been open about who they are and what they were doing. Now back to your support of poll tampering Mr Diebold?]
November 13th, 2007 at 3:02 pm
Sonic answered that question already pdm, a no. Family issues.
November 13th, 2007 at 3:04 pm
“It should be taken for granted the act itself was political. It was also abusive and destructive”
Unless he/she was doing it for national of course!
[DPF: No, unlike yourself we don't excuse scummy behaviour on the grounds of which party it is for]
November 13th, 2007 at 3:05 pm
Thanx P
November 13th, 2007 at 3:08 pm
Unless he/she was doing it for national of course!
Simply put, National doesn’t need that kind of help.
They are incredibly fortified.
Their PR is practically Labour sponsored.
Petty tactics of the trivial are hardly needed as Labour scuttles their ship on a daily basis.
November 13th, 2007 at 3:08 pm
“if the Herald are stupid enough to leave the hole open then you would have to expect it would be exploited.”
Thanks for the insight, PaulL.
November 13th, 2007 at 3:13 pm
How does it differ from a secret cult trying to buy an election. I am condoning neither but the hypocrisy from you guys over this is breathtaking.
Please could some one explain to sonic the difference between trying to convince people of an idea and rigging a poll? Concepts like free speech and an intelligent electorate will also need to be explained.
November 13th, 2007 at 3:15 pm
DPF, am I right in thinking that Xtra are the only people who could identify the user who hacked the poll? ie they’re the only ones who could confirm who they’d leased that IP address to at that time yesterday?
[DPF: Yes]
November 13th, 2007 at 3:17 pm
Lee, not sure whether I am reading something into that “thanks for the insight” that isn’t there. It seemed to have an undertone…
I don’t in any way agree with what went on. But I think there is a bit of a continuum here. We have always pointed out that these polls are incredibly unscientific and open to manipulation, and that it has happened many times in the past. There is a fine line between voting once, encouraging a few of your friends to vote too, voting a few times yourself, writing a script that at least opens the page for you quickly so you can vote a few times, to writing a script that just does the voting.
I’m pretty sure I could write a script myself that did that with a couple of hours or less of work – I’ve definitely written scripts that downloaded whole websites to avoid saving pages individually. Actually doing it would probably be an amusing challenge (yes, in a past life I was a programmer, and my current job provides little outlet for that skill). Of course, if I were to do something like that the result wouldn’t favour Labour.
My guess is that whomever it was will be a Labour supporter (that much is obvious) but I would be surprised if they were someone from the inner circle. More likely some pimple faced kid who thinks they understand everything about the world from a few left-wing university lectures, and gets a kick out of writing some scripts. The fact that there are a large number of kids out there who fit that description is probably the reason that this happens so often.
Like I say, it isn’t exactly hard for the Herald to block this, why you would bother putting up an online poll that doesn’t stop duplicate voting I have no idea.
November 13th, 2007 at 3:19 pm
Sonic, what secret cult? The EB aren’t secret, they are arguably secretive but that is quite different.
What buying of the election? They ran a few ads that said things that were true. They were legal. Everybody knew they were doing it.
Repeating untruths doesn’t make them true – you are aware of that aren’t you?
And the stock VRWC answer: only one party actually tried to buy the election, and they did it with my damn money. And now they are passing a law to let them do it every election. How is that OK? Where is your double standard?
November 13th, 2007 at 3:19 pm
I’ve just posted about this myself, also drawing parrallels to a similar poll-hack that I stumbled upon in August
http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2007/11/gotcha.html
November 13th, 2007 at 3:21 pm
Since we are moving comments across from the last thread to this one:
“Bad actions, I agree. But many people think visiting porn sites is bad. I’m not talking illegal here, just disreputable. We don’t demand isps release the identities of those who do that. We have privacy laws for a reason, they are overridden by a greater good. If you break the law you could expect some of your privacy to be impinged upon. If you did something entirely legal but that some (even many) people think inappropriate, I still think you have a right to privacy.”
(fixed a typo whilst I was at it)
November 13th, 2007 at 3:21 pm
So hijacking a poll that some of us wanted to contribute to in good faith is OK now you Socialist arseholes.
God you are really the pits all of you No morals No ethics Gutter level thinkers all
Go crawl back under the hole that you like Crazy Clark occupies
November 13th, 2007 at 3:25 pm
PaulL at 3:19pm. Good on ya.
Sonic … the only secret cult trying to buy an election was the one you probably voted for … Labour.
Simple question Sonic … in your eyes what’s morally preferable … (a) individuals spending their own money to publicise their politicial views? Or (b) organisations stealing public money to publicise their political views?
If you really think (a) then you’re ethics are way out of line with the general public’s and I’d say you’re the candidate for membership of a weird fringe cult.
November 13th, 2007 at 3:26 pm
Sonic.
The exclusive bretheren never falsely rigged polls, nor engaged in any actions that would directly effect the results of any poll or election. All the EB did was engage in free speech in a manner that would not harm those it was looking to help.
Personally I cannot find fault with what they said, but I do wish they had not done so as the net effect was detrimental to national.
The EB did not go and stuff several thousand false votes in the system. They did not attempt to skew results by way of corrupt and fraudulent behavior.
The fact that those who would support the outcome of such false and fraudulent behavior choose to engage in such speaks volumes.
November 13th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
There’s a striking irony.
It costs money to participate in an 0900 poll (such as when TV1 or TV3 canvasses an issue of the day). The EFB is premised on it costing too much money to participate in an election.,
It costs nothing to participate in an online poll (such as when the NZ Herald canvasses an issue of the day). The EFB is premised on it costing very little to participate in an election.
Would the group of socialist comrades report to the front bench and explain this apparent contradiction please?
November 13th, 2007 at 3:35 pm
“The exclusive bretheren never falsely rigged polls, nor engaged in any actions that would directly effect the results of any poll or election”
They spent a million dollars not to effect the results of the election?
Seriously slightly righty, wake up and smell the peppermint tea mate.
November 13th, 2007 at 3:40 pm
And Labour spent $800,000 not to effect the results of the election either.
Thank you and good night.
November 13th, 2007 at 3:40 pm
Spending money to put a legitimate point of view across is one thing. Falsely rigging a poll by voting 5000 times is a very different proposition.
Seriously Sonic, wake up and smell what you’re shoveling.
November 13th, 2007 at 3:41 pm
<i>DPF, am I right in thinking that Xtra are the only people who could identify the user who hacked the poll? ie they’re the only ones who could confirm who they’d leased that IP address to at that time yesterday?</i>
That would certainly be breaching their customers right to privacy.
[DPF: Well it depends on their terms and conditions. The user may well have broken them. But generally yes ISPs will not hand over such details without a warrant.]
November 13th, 2007 at 3:41 pm
“The exclusive bretheren never falsely rigged polls, nor engaged in any actions that would directly effect the results of any poll or election”
absolutely 100% correct. they legally expressed their views. so did the AA, forest & bird, unions, drug reform lobby groups, teachers, hospital workers… shall i go on?!?! it’s called democracy. is that so hard to live with? apparently so, for the deer-in-the-headlights lefties.
November 13th, 2007 at 3:42 pm
Slightly, as I said above I don’t condone this sort of behaviour, however it is hardly worth the “kill the witch” mentality we are getting here eh?
November 13th, 2007 at 3:45 pm
Sonic.
Can you please enlighten me.
What is the difference between trying to influence public opinion and dictating what public opinion is?
November 13th, 2007 at 3:47 pm
Your words not ours Sonic.
But good choice of them. Bet Helen would be stoked. =)
November 13th, 2007 at 3:50 pm
Danyl, I agree it’d be a breach of their customers right to privacy, and so I can’t imagine Xtra would contemplate that.
I suspect the only way to identify the person who hacked the poll would be if Xtra were presented with a warrant to hand over the information. I doubt any crime has been committed, and even if there was a technical crime I think there are more important things for the Police to focus on. But it’d be good to see the person named-and-shamed.
I wonder if their actions violated Xtra’s terms of use? Xtra could then say “We’ve identified the person as … and have cancelled their account with us”. Still, last thing Telecom needs now is for Labour to get even more vindictive against them
November 13th, 2007 at 3:55 pm
Especially if the person concerned turned out to be one closely linked to the Socialists
No No of course not Its actually ONE OF US righties but dont tell anyone I told you
November 13th, 2007 at 4:06 pm
It sure makes Russel Brown’s claim that later in the afternoon the votes changed to more accurately reflect the mood of the nation, look a little thin.
November 13th, 2007 at 4:10 pm
I agree with PaulL.
Also, who cares about Herald poll – it means nothing.
Only an idiot would put any meaning on the results.
Perhaps a professional like DPF could do a real poll on the same topic – though of course it would have to be worded differently, wouldn’t it? The wording the Herald used is aimed at a pre-determined answer by use of emotive language etc and reveals their bias.
November 13th, 2007 at 4:15 pm
Virtualmark, you wrote;
I doubt any crime has been committed, and even if there was a technical crime I think there are more important things for the Police to focus on.
I agree, clearly they are far to busy. Too busy in fact to interview or charge len richards who committed an aggravated assault on national TV. if they cannot interview a violent thug then seeking out and talking to a nappy wearing lock-in who rigs polls for Helen would be far to minor to bother them.
Labour party membership card.
No repayments.
No limits on spending.
And absolutely no CHARGES EVER.
November 13th, 2007 at 4:15 pm
IP – it does give Russell Brown just a wee “credibility issue” doesn’t it!
November 13th, 2007 at 4:19 pm
Bill – do you mean Len “it IS ok if you are a Labour Party member” Richards. Surely by now the AOS has cordoned his house of, and they’ve dragged him off to the local station to “help with their enquiries” – surely. No? Then surely three burly officers have gone round to interview him like they did the mother who smacked her child. No?
Then it’s true – IT IS OK!!!!!
November 13th, 2007 at 4:21 pm
Inventory:
He said it didn’t happen. Nothing to see. Can’t you move on?
November 13th, 2007 at 4:23 pm
The Labour Party are pushing as hard as they possibly can, this Exclusive Brethren thing.
Imagine that the six members of that weird faith, who spent heaps of THEIR OWN MONEY, all enrolled for some dubious course at Auckland University. Then they all had to join the Students Association. They would have had as much to do with administering the Students Association as they had with administering the EB religion. Then the barren harridans and their urine weak handbag holders would be able to malign the AUSA. It would have been delightful.
That is not fanciful. That is fact. They were all members of the EB faith, just as all law students are members of the Students Association at some universities.
Keep in mind that the EB fellows did not spend one brass razoo of taxpayer funds on their campaign.
These Labour Party people are unreal. It will be within the law to waste $65,000 on Pokies but it will be against the law to spend $65,000 of your own hard earned, telling people how honest the Labour Party really is.
November 13th, 2007 at 4:23 pm
The labour party membership card is like Bauble Boys gold card, instead of benefiting oldies it is designed for workshy ginga cardie wearers who have decided that they are above the law and it is all the fault of the “right” and anything they do is justified by their class struggle.
November 13th, 2007 at 4:24 pm
sonis will you be a founding member of the red shirts, ,
November 13th, 2007 at 4:29 pm
OPPS should be SONIC your true red labour supporter, founding member of the red shirts , we have had brown and black shirt in history, and with labours desperation ,a red shirt section willl araise.
November 13th, 2007 at 4:38 pm
Umm, does anyone know Sonic’s ISP address, incidentally!
November 13th, 2007 at 4:41 pm
doesnt the anti spam bill (because surely this many emails to the same address is spam) cover this ??
November 13th, 2007 at 4:41 pm
Has there been any progress in investigating the assault by Len Richards?
and
Has there been any progress in investigating the theft of virtually all the National Party’s communications prior to the last election?
Well I don’t think this would be likely to get any better treatment, even if a law had been obviously broken!
November 13th, 2007 at 4:43 pm
The IP address belongs to the psychics from Sensing Murder TV program whom impressed Phil U with their detective work in solving unsolved murder. The psychics did the hacking by sending telepathic messages (via that IP) to the Herald’s server.
November 13th, 2007 at 4:46 pm
Russell Browns dubious reputation just got shot to smithereens. Isnt wonderful watching the Socialists led by the Crazy Clark all falling apart as their deceit and deception is exposed to the masses.
November 13th, 2007 at 4:50 pm
“They have acted against everyone of us who believes in freedom and democracy by belittling the process”.
gd, I am not condoning the rigging of polls, but equating the rigging of a lame online newspaper poll to the downfall of freedom and democracy is one hell of a stretch.
November 13th, 2007 at 4:50 pm
Doesn’t this just show how daft these online polls are and how unreliable they are? If we trying want to measure public opinion, let’s commission real polls (and that’s not in itself intended as a pitch for DPF’s busines…)
[dpf: Heh
]
November 13th, 2007 at 4:52 pm
Andrew.
It’s the same thought process. It’s just a question of scale. Chris Trotter, after the matter of the theft of $800k opined that the end justified the means. This is an example of similar thinking from the political left, and the herald is right to expose it.
November 13th, 2007 at 4:55 pm
The Herald is now reporting that a “teen” who’s “deeply involved involved in politics” has owned up and is embarrassed.
I just sent this to the reporter, Jeremy Rees:
Hi Jeremy,
Do you have an identity for this “teen” hacker of yesterday’s poll? Just looking at the comments attributed to him I don’t believe it’s a teen at all, even a deeply square teen who’s deeply into politics. The syntax and terminology doesn’t strike me as that of a teen; rather it reads like someone older covering their tracks. As a former journo with a feel for these things I urge you to keep digging. I really think the source of this is probably someone in the Labour Party organisation. After all, did the same “teen” hi-jack nine previous NZ Herald and Stuff polls? Some previous hacked polls where the result was swung in Labour’s favour were traced back to IP addressess at Parliament Buildings. I think Labour is simply getting more sophisticated. Also, what’s the feasibility of one person managing 5000 votes in 10 minutes? Surely some sort of vote automation was employed, or this “teen” is the only guy in the country with super high-speed broadband!
November 13th, 2007 at 5:00 pm
It’s the same thought process.
No it isn’t. It’s a completely different thought process. Rigging a lame online newspaper poll is pathetic and ultimately pointless. Rigging an election can be extremely effective but is illegal and far more difficult. I seriously doubt that the same person is a multiple voter in the general election.
Oh, and lets not make the assumption that those on the right would never resort to such tactics.
November 13th, 2007 at 5:00 pm
On ya Wycroft! Well done. Was the same person responsible for all the “Fox News” references that littered the “Send us your views” pages?
November 13th, 2007 at 5:05 pm
I dunno, Wycroft. Tennage computer nerds do get a lot of practice looking at a computer screen while moving their fingers repetitively up and down.
Playing computer games I mean.
But I second deanknight and other commenters who’ve said these polls are a nonsense anyway. What’s needed is a properly conducted poll… after the SC report-back, so the government can’t claim the populace has been assuaged by cosmetic tinkering round the edges of the Bill.
November 13th, 2007 at 5:05 pm
Wycroft – if Jeremy Rees looks here:
http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2007/08/dodgy-polls.html
he will find date, time and numerical details of a similar occurrence on Tuesday 28 August 2007 where a poll asking respondents for their Preferred Prime Minister was “manipulated” by a third party (or many multiple third parties) and experienced a similar paradigm shift in the result in a very short timeframe. And guess what – again it went from Right to Left.
November 13th, 2007 at 5:15 pm
Could someone please explain to me what idiots achieve from rigging opinion polls?
November 13th, 2007 at 5:20 pm
Maybe it was a Herald insider – looking to create even more hype!
November 13th, 2007 at 5:21 pm
Maybe Rex, but you still have to refresh the page to vote in these things. It takes between one and six seconds on average to refresh a page. Even if you say the page refreshed every three seconds that’s 20 possible votes per minute, not counting the time it takes your practiced teenage computer nerd to actually click the vote field. At three seconds per refresh that only allows for 200 votes in 10 minutes. At double the speed you’re still not at 1000 votes. I honestly don’t think it’s possible to physically vote 5000 times in 10 minutes without some sort of automation. Now maybe this “teen” political animal is also a techie (odd mix though, a computer nerd who’s also into politics – perhaps he’s a sport jock too) who’s worked out a way to cast 5000 votes in 10 minutes. However, I think it’s more likely that someone has purchased some sophisticated software to cast those votes or (don’t know if it can be done) provided multiple people access to the poll via the same IP address.
November 13th, 2007 at 5:25 pm
Insolent Prick Says:
November 13th, 2007 at 4:06 pm
“It sure makes Russel Brown’s claim that later in the afternoon the votes changed to more accurately reflect the mood of the nation, look a little thin.”
Inventory2 Says:
November 13th, 2007 at 4:15 pm
“IP – it does give Russell Brown just a wee “credibility issue” doesn’t it!”
gd Says:
November 13th, 2007 at 4:46 pm
“Russell Browns dubious reputation just got shot to smithereens. Isnt wonderful watching the Socialists led by the Crazy Clark all falling apart as their deceit and deception is exposed to the masses.”
have you even read his post? and the attached comments?
I would be interested in how you reached your above opinions….
November 13th, 2007 at 5:27 pm
The important poll will be the next election. How safe are we? YOU tell ME that the Klark mob COULDN’T rig that, and that they WOULDN’T do it and that they COULDN’T get away with it if they did.
November 13th, 2007 at 5:30 pm
you mean like Bush did?
November 13th, 2007 at 5:33 pm
Max Call = leftie troll
November 13th, 2007 at 5:34 pm
stalin and helen both have hair under their noses,check it out ,reincarnation,SCARY???
November 13th, 2007 at 5:39 pm
No they didn’t, they merely stated what everyone knew he already did.
A teenager aye… How good is James Sleep with computers? He’s the only teenager I can think of who supports Labour.
[DPF: James is not an Aucklander and it is unfair to suggest he is responsible]
November 13th, 2007 at 5:46 pm
Hi Max, I read it and I singled out that he was relying on the result of the rigged poll to suggest the Herald had misread the mood of the public. It’s there as plain as day. Now, he may have been busy today but it’s been known for hours that the poll was rigged and until an hour or so ago RB hasn’t commented on it or amended that part of his post. I can’t see how the comments you’re referring to from IP and I2 are off the mark given what RB wrote. I can see you making an argument for gd’s comment, but God bless his spirit.
November 13th, 2007 at 5:47 pm
Max:
Just in case you think I’m beating up on you. You said:
Russell Brown’s post (as updated) says:
So Russell Brown has retracted his last sentence. He hasn’t retracted his call that the public isn’t as frenzied as the editors (read: the editors are out of step with public opinion). I do think that a positive retraction, rather than an implied one, is necessary in this case, seeing as his post beats up on the Granny Herald.
So it’s a fair call from Insolent Prick, Inventory2 and gd.
November 13th, 2007 at 5:56 pm
Andrew.
I doubt you would find that poll pointless if the final result reflected your own opinion.
Personally speaking I don’t find the results anywhere near as scientifically accurate as other polls with far more standard polling techniques. There is obviously no control over sample size, demographic and, as seen, no control over multiple voting.
But I still feel that the amended result is far closer to actual public opinion on the issue. Given that the initial result was held up by some as more accurately representing public opinion these claims do not seem to stand up to scrutiny given recent events.
November 13th, 2007 at 6:03 pm
“Also, who cares about Herald poll – it means nothing.”
OK. Shut up about the damn poll then. You’re right. Its not the issue. The issue is the deceit and dishonestyof the left/ Klark Labour Party in trying to rig this and many other polls. – AND WE’RE RIGHT ON TO THAT MAX..!!!!!!
November 13th, 2007 at 6:05 pm
but when you take out the 5000 false votes that doesn’t leave many genuine ones does it? And this doesn’t count any other multiple votes either.
maybe this is what he means by the public not being frenzied?
and thank you for 2nd post explaining what you meant. I don’t mind being challenged! If only everyone would play the ball…
Also I’m not left (or right)
I look at things on an issue-by-issue basis
November 13th, 2007 at 6:07 pm
“Also I’m not left (or right)”
Sigh- without a doubt, this means you’re a leftie..
November 13th, 2007 at 6:24 pm
Max – Yes, I have read Russell’s piece, and I stand by my comments. The Herald withdrew the poll more than 24 hours ago – I thought Russell was a pretty onto-it sort of blogger!
November 13th, 2007 at 6:28 pm
Wycroft… sorry, should have made it more apparent I was speaking sarcastically of the teenager with the particularly well-developed wrist muscles. For the record I agree wholeheartedly with you – the rate of voting over time suggests automation, or a bank of nerds behind one firewall. Either way, much more than simply one contrite teenager getting carried away with himself.
November 13th, 2007 at 6:44 pm
“Update: The poll was hacked and the young man involved says he’s very sorry …”
Ah, ‘the single misguided individual without political affiliation’ school of thought so often used to explain away dubious coincidences.
November 13th, 2007 at 6:51 pm
Redbaiter Says:
November 13th, 2007 at 6:07 pm
“Also I’m not left (or right)”
Sigh- without a doubt, this means you’re a leftie..
BUT isn’t everyone left of you?
November 13th, 2007 at 6:53 pm
I voted National x 2 last election
If there was an election tomorrow it would be the same as things stand…
Personally I don’t think of National as a right-wing party – more centre
November 13th, 2007 at 7:18 pm
“He’s the only teenager I can think of who supports Labour.”
Yeah, cos no young people are left wing……………
November 13th, 2007 at 7:24 pm
Funny Rex, after all these years I still fail to pick up the tone of posts on occasion – too many occasions! Cheers.
November 13th, 2007 at 7:54 pm
“BUT isn’t everyone left of you?”
Dunno, but how can anyone not be either a leftist or a rigthist? If you’re a leftist you’re for big powerful government? How can you then be simultaneously for small weak government? If you’re a leftist, you want to impose your socialist system on everybody else. If you’re a rightist, you don’t want to see anything imposed on anyone, you just want to be left the hell alone, and to leave others the hell alone. Its impossible (for any sane person) to hold both views at the same time.
Another dead giveaway Max is your failure to be upset at the deceit and the dishonesty that is behind the attempt to rig the poll. A pathological lack of morality and principle is almost always the standout personality characteristic of the leftist. They’re brainwashed to be like that.
Just like the simpering duplicitous little leftist scumbag who attempted the fraud. (see note) He thinks a glib “sorry ” is all it takes to make amends. The sad thing is that about half of New Zealand will think likewise.
(Note: Yet to be confirmed that its the work of one non party affiliated person. Considering its happened before to other polls, I doubt it)
November 13th, 2007 at 8:35 pm
I would lay very good odds that this “teenager” is closely affiliated with a National party staffer.
“A person identifying themselves as an Auckland teen who is interested in politics contacted the Herald by email and phone this afternoon. He admitted that he had changed the results and apologised for distorting debate.”
How cute.
Of course he was not a “Hacker” and had not hacked anything, nor had he done anything illegal – if the nzherald dont have the brains to put a time delay in voting. He had done nothing illegal and was completely anonymous under his IP address unless his ISP choose to violate his privacy and reveal it.
Clearly the idea that the Labour party was behind multiple voting of online polls was never going to pass rigourous scrutiny.
The Nats dirty tricks brigade had to find a plausible exit strategy and they did courtesy of the anonymous teenager who was so angry that the Herald “bagged the PM”.
[DPF: No no no it was really the Exclusive Brethren and the aliens from Area 51. You really should go into comedy with your conspiracy theories]
November 13th, 2007 at 8:42 pm
Shit – I think I need more than tin-foil hat after that outburst npg.
If you want to keep coming here, lay off the LSD, there’s a good chap.
November 13th, 2007 at 8:46 pm
Redbaiter
I see politics as more of a continuim – not as you do
The reason I am not upset about the poll is that is irrelevant.
I do, however, get upset about other dishonest behaviour – which is one reason why I would vote National if there was an election tomorrow. I simply don’t trust Labour.
“A pathological lack of morality and principle is almost always the standout personality characteristic of the leftist. They’re brainwashed to be like that.”
Are you accusing me of a pathological lack of morality and principle? And being brainwashed?
November 13th, 2007 at 8:48 pm
Natural Party of Government
Oh and you’re posting about the same “Nat dirty tricks brigade” on this thread too? A troll that thread-jumps and thread-jacks is an impressive troll indeed. But you’re effectively accusing the NZ Herald of sanctioning a phantom poll jack-up. I hope you’ve got deep pockets when the NZ Herald comes knocking on door seeking a retraction and/or contribution to its legal costs.
November 13th, 2007 at 8:48 pm
Oh FFS. NPG, that is the biggest crock of shit I’ve heard for some time.
November 13th, 2007 at 8:59 pm
“Are you accusing me of a pathological lack of morality and principle? And being brainwashed?”
My guess is that you are not “neither left nor right” but a leftist. This view is based on the fact that you’ve already said on a number of occasions that the breach of trust by the attempted poll rigger doesn’t concern you. I am saying you sound to me much more a leftist than anyone who is “not left or right”, a position I say is impossible to hold.
November 13th, 2007 at 9:02 pm
NPG – what flannel. i once employed a young chap (read: rocket scientist, guru) whose previous job had been with the GCSB as a hacker. His job was – if you believe this – to attempt to hack into various government sites and extract information… so that they could be instructed to improve ther border security. I’m pretty certain that other companies where on hit hit list… for a 22year old IT guru he knew a lot about oil companies and eastern european political systems!! part of his training included some formal training which dealt with IT techniques but also the profile of hackers. in >95% of cases, ideologically driven hackers are anti-establishment, anti-government, anti-corporation in focus. the other type of hackers are those that ply their trade for a fee. i’d suggest that this looks like a fee-driven hacker.
November 13th, 2007 at 9:02 pm
The Herald claims that “a single hacker managed to vote more than 5000 times in a period of about 10 minutes”.
Natural Party of Government claims:
Funny that NPOG doesn’t explain how someone can physically vote more than 5000 times in a period of about 10 minutes – physically impossible without technical assistance.
And here’s what Natural Party of Government forgot to quote from the NZ Herald article:
I think if the hacker was associated with a National Party staffer, the Herald would have a new front-page story, don’t you?
November 13th, 2007 at 9:09 pm
Still any stupid poll that doesn’t take into account double voting needs a ‘hacker’ like this guy to demonstrate how stupid the methodology is.
We should also keep in mind that any poll like this is using fairly flawed methodology (although making sure each IP can only vote once improves it from useless to only very bad).
November 13th, 2007 at 9:15 pm
Never mind rigging the poles did you catch nanny TV1 rigging the news with the “hypothetical question from Con Mark and its equally hypothetical answer from Pete Hodson” presented as genuine question and answer. All care of Guyon Espiner aka fwit.
November 13th, 2007 at 9:17 pm
sorry make that “polls“
November 13th, 2007 at 9:38 pm
yeah… but its not a ‘real’ poll is it?
It would be a different story if it was.
That would be something to get upset about.
I think those self-selecting online polls are just fluff and that most people recognise them as such.
As I said earlier – why doesn’t someone do a real poll with the same (better worded though) question?
(When i say ‘real poll’ I mean one that is within the bounds of being scientifically robust)
November 13th, 2007 at 9:59 pm
“I think if the hacker was associated with a National Party staffer, the Herald would have a new front-page story, don’t you?”- POC
Well the thing is Peak Oil we are so used to Labour party scandels that they are no longer interesting any more. If it happened that this was actually a Labour party staffer then it might make the second page, but it wouldnt compare to the stuff that we are used to from Auntie Helen and her lot. Think Painter-Gate, Pledge-gate and Corn-gate. Online poll-gate just doesnt have the same ring.
Also the press is of course left wing biased by it’s own admission, although the Herald isnt so bad compared to others…
November 13th, 2007 at 10:18 pm
NPOG said
The Nats dirty tricks brigade had to find a plausible exit strategy and they did courtesy of the anonymous teenager who was so angry that the Herald “bagged the PM”.
Yeah of course and the CIA engineered 9/11!
November 14th, 2007 at 12:31 am
^ well, sorry to point out the the obvious dear Sonic, but if big money really brought elections then why aren’t National in power now? Your hypothesis has no basis – and you don’t have to be a scientist to figure that out.
Labour spent $15Million on Working for Families advertising… the EW spent $500,000 out of a budget of $1.2 Million…
Now hold on… I’ve just counter my own argument. Who exactly was the big spender @ the last election? Who stole from the tax pay to fund their stupid pledge card?
November 14th, 2007 at 12:32 am
heh.. that’s EB not EW. Two completely different organisations.
November 14th, 2007 at 2:14 am
Krazykiwi, you miss the point entirely. To me hacking involves something that is vaguely hard. Fixing the Herald poll would be simple. It doesn’t involve special toolsets or magic software, nor bunches of pcs operating in parallel. I’m pretty sure i could do it with a shell script and about 2 hours of programming, maybe less if it is vaguely similar to some scripts I have written in the past. Real hacking would start with someone even remotely trying to stop you from doing something, and therefore some need to circumvent security measures. Just calling a website in a loop is hardly hacking.
I am sure your friend was a real hacker, but clearly you don’t fully understand what is involved.
November 14th, 2007 at 3:58 am
“Krazykiwi, you miss the point entirely. To me hacking involves something that is vaguely hard.”
Hacking to me means illegal access to a network. Running a CGI script to access a website automatically is not hacking by any normal sense of the term.
It certainly isnt illegal.
“I think if the hacker was associated with a National Party staffer, the Herald would have a new front-page story, don’t you?”
Probably they would. However as torture is illegal in this country there is little the Herald can do over the phone to ascertain connections or political affiliations.
previously this prank was run from Parliament computers according to Herald story. So it was either Labor trying to rig polls or the Nats dirty tricks brigade trying to look like Labour rigs polls.
This little episode of someone ringing up the herald and confessing was just their exit strategy.
November 14th, 2007 at 4:27 am
NPOG:
Oh get over yourself.
It’s a matter of semantics whether this behaviour is properly characterised as “hacking” or something else. Sure, the Herald kicked the issue into touch, and some here are unwisely arguing the toss, but it’s an inconsequential distraction from the main issue.
Here’s the good news: you’ve moved on from your indefensible 8.35 post (The Nats dirty tricks brigade had to find a plausible exit strategy and they did courtesy of the anonymous teenager who was so angry that the Herald “bagged the PM”) to this fence-sitting post (So it was either Labor trying to rig polls or the Nats dirty tricks brigade trying to look like Labour rigs polls). Your progress is slow but it’s slow progress. With luck we’ll get you over the line.
But here’s the problem. You say:
This doesn’t correspond to the Herald article:
So the Herald had email and phone information. The Herald couldn’t possibly confirm details, and ascertain the person’s identity, without making its own inquiries and cross-checking information. And having reached that point, there are ways of ascertaining whether the person was a pawn in a bigger game of chess.
If you’re still hallucinating and see this incident as some kind of exit strategy, or if you’re just trolling for kicks, can I suggest you publish a book on conspiracies (surely a bestseller) – or join TomSocialist on his national stand-up comedy tour?
November 14th, 2007 at 5:12 am
“Here’s the good news: you’ve moved on from your indefensible 8.35 post (The Nats dirty tricks brigade had to find a plausible exit strategy and they did courtesy of the anonymous teenager who was so angry that the Herald “bagged the PM”) to this fence-sitting post (So it was either Labor trying to rig polls or the Nats dirty tricks brigade trying to look like Labour rigs polls). Your progress is slow but it’s slow progress. With luck we’ll get you over the line.”
Sorry, I didnt make myself clear.
Logically either National or Labour did this from the Parliamentary ISP.
I know it was not Labour, that only leaves National……and this cute teenager as the exit strategy.
“It’s a matter of semantics whether this behaviour is properly characterised as “hacking” or something else.”
Its an incorrect use of the word “hacking” which has clear implications of illegal behaviour.
There was nothing illegal about what the Nats dirty tricks brigade did or otherwise I am sure Head Office would not have condoned it.
November 14th, 2007 at 6:27 am
Hum… does anyone else think NPOG has just outed itself as a Labour sock puppet? Though, to be fair, its equally possible it’s just making shit up.
November 14th, 2007 at 6:36 am
NPG is evidently attttempting to ‘hack’ the debate himself by positing somethng that is so ridiculous, that the credibe might be taken in. Or at worst, wil draw fire away from the idea that Labour were behind the ‘hacking teen’.
The more he does it, the more I am inclined to ssume it is a device to confuse and undermine the credentials of anyone who might assert it is a Labour-Party initiative.
You have to ask why would anyone come up with such a crack-pot theory taht the Nats are skewing polls so that puplic opinion aappears to be against them, thus supplying the Labour Party with the ammunition it needs to belittle National?
This is a desperate smokescreen it’s up there with Sam Dixon’s sudden (and quite un -elicited, or asked for) remark last week that ‘there are no divisions in the Labour Party’.
So to recap: The Nats were behind the teen hacker and there is no division in the Labour Party, according to some. Plainly livng in tellytubby land.
November 14th, 2007 at 6:39 am
I do believe NPOG is a flibbertigibbet who is from the Labaia Party on a mission from the sub standard ship of fools . This gathering of motley cretin cabin boy sailors is a coalition of nutbars founded on hyperbole , who are happy to carry on bearing a cornucopia of agendas and ideology’s delivered to them via snake mail from Queen Bee in Bonnet Helen Corruption .
November 14th, 2007 at 6:41 am
ALERT
Urawera 17 Files leaked to DomPost to divert attention from EFB
November 14th, 2007 at 6:45 am
Alert = Helen Clark’s dentist was severely savaged by a mad witch….ooops wrong thread and blog
November 14th, 2007 at 6:58 am
By the way, The Very Double Standard had a nice time last night inferring that The National Party and some of its named defenders were implicated in paedophilia last night. Check out the cosmopoilitician page if you want to see how low people will go.
November 14th, 2007 at 7:10 am
Further Update:
DomPost has devoted its entire front page to excerpts from the -presumably- legally priviledged Police files on the recent Terror raids:
Questions:
1. Where did this leak come from?
2.Why has it a occurred at such an opportune time for the PM and Labour, just as they are about to ram through the EFB?
3.Is the DomPost after the government advertising dollars the Herald is about to lose?
Sorry to go off topic!
November 14th, 2007 at 7:11 am
I have been called a paedophile from every contributer to the snake bile that flows over at the sib standard sewage blog .
November 14th, 2007 at 7:16 am
Reg no the topic is ‘hacking’ and by implication, political interference in public opinion – it’s all good.
This was the first retaliation by the Government against the Herald.
November 14th, 2007 at 7:17 am
dad – you and anyone who may have passed you in the sreet, it appears. It’s just ‘weird’ if you ask me.
November 14th, 2007 at 7:19 am
Bye the way, the PM did signal that we would be ’seeing the evidence soon’ when she was interviewed on the TV the other morning by Paul Henry, so she evidently had this contingency in the bottom drawer.
November 14th, 2007 at 7:47 am
Why? To be quite honest, I’ve little affection for WhaleOil but the Sub-Standard’s moral high horse isn’t even fit for the knacker’s yard. And when you down to it, who needs to go swimming in a sewer to know crap stinks?
November 14th, 2007 at 7:53 am
But Lee by definition she “can’t leak”. She told us Re: Doone.
My take is this: With the mounting opposition to the EFB led by NZ’s largest daily newspaper and a Hikoi approaching parliament something had to be done.
The failure of the Police to secure the Solicitor Generals approval to use anti-terror laws on the Urewera 17 had proved an embarrassment to to cops and deprived the Labour government the electoral advantage of a high profile anti-terror case in the run-up to an election.
The answer.
The confidential information regarding the 17, (which could never now be used in Court because it was collected under the anti-terror laws which the SC said weren’t applicable) had to find it’s way into the public domain.
And what better time than now, with the mounting opposition to the Government’s Anti-democratic agenda.
An what better means.
After TV3 -the first option- backed down in the face of the rule of law, obviously the DomPost would jump having been recently trumped by the Herald in it’s high profile anti-EFB campaign.
The files themselves reveal some dangerous conversations by very unhappy people, but then again most of the transcripts weren’t much worse than D4J on a bad day.
If this matter had been quietly tidied up under the Crimes Act the appearance of political overtones would have been avoided and NZ’s international image would of remained unsullied.
November 14th, 2007 at 8:05 am
“The files themselves reveal some dangerous conversations by very unhappy people, but then again most of the transcripts weren’t much worse than D4J on a bad day.”
On a bad day I get demerits ( a few runs on the board ) then I am dismissed ((struck out by good intention underarm umpires ) however I don’t threaten to kill George Bush or talk about the assassination of John Key . I cannot believe the front page of the Christchurch Press article titled ; Terror :what the police discovered .
What a scandalous and disturbing state of affairs that will severely affect our international reputations .
November 14th, 2007 at 8:08 am
Craig you are right. I should stay away. But the illicit thrill!, the danger… actually, on reflection, it isn’t worth it.
Meanwhile, Helen, Reg, must be starting to feel a bit like every other failing dicator has, as the enemy appears to be closing in on every direction. And her precious army deserts her. To counter, increasingly deluded and paranoid plans to ‘wipe out the enemy’ will be presented, ‘one last push’ can’t be far away from her lips…
November 14th, 2007 at 8:09 am
” The files themselves reveal some dangerous conversations by very unhappy people, but then again most of the transcripts weren’t much worse than D4J on a bad day. ”
. . . or a Finnish school youth.
November 14th, 2007 at 8:11 am
Dad – just yesterday I let slip that i’d like to see Helen Clark ‘burn for democracy’. I think that the more precious the leasdershipt feels about itself, the more dangerous even the rantings of deluded crackpots appear. Didn’t she call that hikoi ‘haters and wreckers’? I mean come on!
But then we are in flus, and even sheat we normally term ‘democratic expression is being re-written as we speak.
November 14th, 2007 at 8:11 am
Yvette I hope your are NOT insinuating that I condone the mass murder of innocent school children by a deranged homicidal maniac ?
November 14th, 2007 at 8:12 am
should read ‘flux’ what we term. sorry. I’ll try harder to eliminate typos. (bit of a sore point this morning)
November 14th, 2007 at 8:13 am
With reference to the leak about police intelligence on the terrorist training camps. Did anyone else note they are picking John Key as the next prime minister?
November 14th, 2007 at 8:15 am
Yes slightly righty – you see even the thickest of the electorate have clocked that one!
November 14th, 2007 at 8:16 am
Lee C ,
As far as the Labour Party goes , Helen Clark will destroy it through her infatuation with power control. Watch . Everybody hates her obnoxious and deceptive character , even long time Labour supporters are no longer interested in providing her the traditional red voter power base . She is history and the Labour Party will take decades to recover after the collapse of the infrastructure . I will not lend them a hand to rebuild a corrupt political machine , which is , Labour !
November 14th, 2007 at 8:17 am
Sorry Dad, I wasn’t trying to equate you with terrorists, just that comments need to be taken in “context”.
For instance yesterday on this Blog, some one blogged on the need to “Pop” Helen Clark, now we all know he was speaking figuratively, but taken out of context it could have been interpteted as a death threat.
Now I have no sympathy for the “deluded pseudo-Vietcong” playing war games in the Ureweras financed by WINZ, but a court of law can examine both sides of a case and come up with a judgment. Trial by media is never a substitute for this, although it may help sell papers.
November 14th, 2007 at 8:18 am
dad – I think there is a split, it’s been kept under wraps, but it is forming.
November 14th, 2007 at 8:22 am
Lee C
Would anybody in their sane mind support the delusions of grandeur that makes Helen’s stinking thinking detrimental to the safety and functioning ability of the country ?? Surely a vote of NON CONFIDENCE in our Prime Minister should be advocated by the opposition parties ? The silence is sickening in a country dwelling in a political cess pit of corruption .
November 14th, 2007 at 8:23 am
Guys – I’m sure DPF will have a thread about this soon. I have blogged twice about these leaks on Keeping Stock – in the first thread – Sat 10/11 http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2007/11/whodunnit.html – I closed with the following:
“There’s one other possibility – “sources in Wellington” – the media code for sources close, very close to the Prime Minister’s Department. But surely that wouldn’t happen………..would it?”
This is one occasion on which I’d love to be proved wrong, but this whole business is staring to develop a very strange smell…..
November 14th, 2007 at 8:29 am
I bet this kid was put up to this by some trade union thug. The gangs treat the youing in a similar way getting them to perform burglaries.
November 14th, 2007 at 8:30 am
“Now I have no sympathy for the “deluded pseudo-Vietcong” playing war games in the Ureweras financed by WINZ.”
Too close for comfort bud!
November 14th, 2007 at 8:47 am
Call me suspicious but does anyone else find it highly convenient that the discussion on the identity of the “poll hacker” was effectively stopped dead by the admission and confession?
Methinks that the embarrassment that would have ensued if the truth was known would have been highly damaging – enough to make two people fall on their sword.
Of course NPOG will reappear under a different guise and pseudonym to continue distorting and obfuscating from “the inside”.
November 14th, 2007 at 8:49 am
well inventory, given that the Herald has been overlooked by the ‘leaker’ on this – I would be tempted, if I edited there, to run an investigative piece about where the leaks are coming from.
November 14th, 2007 at 8:51 am
Yes david
Leaks, hackers – the gloves are off.
The media is a plaything…
Investigation into these aspects of ‘government by innuendo’ deserve more scrutiny.
November 14th, 2007 at 8:52 am
Those criticising police credibility might have to reassess that criticism and readdress it to those who wrote the bill in such a way that prosecutions could not be effected in the face of such evidence.
November 14th, 2007 at 9:01 am
Right – must go and buy a Dom-Post!
November 14th, 2007 at 10:04 am
“Andrew.
I doubt you would find that poll pointless if the final result reflected your own opinion.”
What makes you so sure that it doesn’t reflect my opinion?
November 14th, 2007 at 12:54 pm
How much money did WINZ ( and by extension, Goverment) give to these prospective terrorists? That angle doesn’t seem to have been covered yet.
Will WINZ be trying to recoup what was granted from whichever organisation applied for funding?
November 14th, 2007 at 1:11 pm
“Seamonkey Madness Says:
November 13th, 2007 at 3:47 pm
“killl the witch”
Your words not ours Sonic.
But good choice of them.”
Better watch out mate, if you were a lefty that would get you a visit from the police.
November 15th, 2007 at 2:01 am
My money is on our friend Mr Sleep. I’d like to see him deny it!