General Debate 10 December 2007

December 10th, 2007 at 11:27 am by David Farrar
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38 Responses to “General Debate 10 December 2007”

  1. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    posted this in another thread.. but no answers..
    anyone care to comment?

    QUICK QUESTION:

    has the international media picked up on this disaster of a bill??

    has anyone put out press releases?? how bout one to reuters??

    NEW ZEALAND make it illegal to criticise government or something similar.

    compare helen to chavez.. that type of thing.

    helen would stop the bill if there was international condemnation.

    imagine the banner on CNN and Fox news all day – NZ make it illegal to…

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  2. BeShakey (405 comments) says:

    I don’t think the international media is so easily fooled. Besides which, you have a very limited view of interenational affairs if you think they should drop Guatanemo, Zimbabwe, Palestine/Israel etc etc, and start looking at the EFB as a real international outrage.

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  3. Andrew W (1,629 comments) says:

    Labour has deliberately made the EFB a very complicated issue, the international media like things simple.

    “NZ make it illegal to…” can you finish your own sentence, in less than 20 words?

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  4. hinamanu (2,352 comments) says:

    Foreign politicians will already understand the implications.

    Obviously, mum’s the word,, conspiracy ??

    she’s with the new Ajussy PM right now,

    any qs from him??

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  5. Tane (1,096 comments) says:

    Dime, the international media are aware that NZ is one of the freest, most democratic countries in the world. They also understand that campaign finance reform along the lines of the EFB is a perfectly legitimate protection of democracy. Comparing Helen Clark to Hugo Chavez just makes you look stupid for so many reasons.

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  6. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Dime, the international media are aware that NZ is one of the freest, most democratic countries in the world.”

    The international media are a gang of left wing sycophants. They’d be cheering this outrage on. Chavez and Castro are their dahlings. Klark would fit right in. They love communist totalitarians.

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  7. Johnboy (16,597 comments) says:

    “Comparing Helen Clark to Hugo Chavez just makes you look stupid”

    Spot on there Tane: Chavez = 49% support. Helens mob = 38% and falling.

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  8. PhilBest (5,121 comments) says:

    Redbaiter is right. The international media, i.e. the journalists themselves, are largely in support of creeping one-world totalitarian socialist government. They’d probably luuuuuurve Helen as UN Secretary General.

    It would be interesting to see what some of the more rightwing US media would say about NZ though, but most of them would regard us as but a flea on the backside of international events.

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  9. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Comparing Helen Clark to Hugo Chavez just makes you look stupid for so many reasons.”

    Commie code for “We wish you’d stop making those accurate comparisons”.

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  10. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    stupid?

    this bill is designed to keep her in power longer.. a shame we dont have a constituion like venezuela that would kick her out after x amount of years.

    helen loves the UN.. would only take a few countries media to criticise her and shed back off.

    one of my dreams is to see her nominated to be the UN secretary General.. only to have the US veto her :P

    one good thing about labour though – they have weakened our armed forces to such an extent, they couldnt govern NZ by force :)

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  11. BeShakey (405 comments) says:

    I love the conspiracy theories here. The NZ media is out to get us, the international media is out to get us, international scientists are out to get us, the police are out to get us. Ever wonder why you aren’t taken seriously?

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  12. llew (1,533 comments) says:

    BeShakey, if you’re not with us, you’re against us!

    Are you out to get us?

    :)

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  13. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Ever wonder why you aren’t taken seriously?”

    Why would “we” wonder any such thing when we witness the immense amount of effort the left (such as You Beshakey, the Standard, KBB and so many other desperate and twisted leftist trolls) put in to attempting to discredit “us”.??? Obviously what “we” write here is of absolutely no consequence.

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  14. Colonel Masters (409 comments) says:

    Dime says:
    [quote]one good thing about labour though – they have weakened our armed forces to such an extent, they couldnt govern NZ by force :)[/quote]

    That’s when Helen’s good mates, the Chinese Government, are happy to step in in a “peace-keeping” role.

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  15. Johnboy (16,597 comments) says:

    “I love the conspiracy theories here.——-“. Yeah BeFlakey it isnt true then that the EFB is the liars party masterplan to get everyone who conspires against dear leaders 1000 year reich.

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  16. bwakile (757 comments) says:

    If there is any conspiracy theory going on here it is an extremely well thought out plan by Labour, implemented step by step over time, to gain permanent control of the government benches.

    They have relied our apathy and the idea that this could never happen in good old NZ.

    Rural NZ woke up 3 years ago, now the cities are working it out.

    “You can fool some of the people some of the time but not all the people all the time”

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  17. PhilBest (5,121 comments) says:

    dime Says:
    December 10th, 2007 at 12:33 pm

    “one good thing about labour though – they have weakened our armed forces to such an extent, they couldnt govern NZ by force”

    And they couldn’t chuck Helen out like Bananarama did to the Fijian equivalent of Liarbour.

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  18. Johnboy (16,597 comments) says:

    With all the lovey-dovey with KRudd I predict an Aussie style disarmnament of the populace is not too far away on the horizon after all it is easier to lead the sheeple to the slaughter if you take their weapons away first.

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  19. llew (1,533 comments) says:

    after all it is easier to lead the sheeple to the slaughter if you take their weapons away first.

    Wow metaphor & half! So who is arming these sheep? They should probably be tackled first.

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  20. Phil (127 comments) says:

    I’m suprised no-one has mentioned the “Double O” yet; Obama and Oprah.

    Looks to me like a calculated move to destabilise Hillary Clinton’s main support base – white women voters. It could backfire terribly if Oprahs personality is allowed too much free range in the campaign.

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  21. hinamanu (2,352 comments) says:

    “It would be interesting to see what some of the more rightwing US media would say about NZ though,”

    The incredible irony of all this is that the US fought hard lost wars to stem communism and when it happens here they say nothing.

    This tells me they weren’t fighting Communism at all, just making war as an excuse to fight. The American people have just got to be the most naieve population of the entire world.

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  22. hinamanu (2,352 comments) says:

    “I’m suprised no-one has mentioned the “Double O” yet; Obama and Oprah.”

    Oprah is more poltically savvy than she lets on.

    She won’t go for officw because she knows poltical advisors will only curtail and stiffle her. Outside the white House she can advise and help far more effectively without restriction and red tape.

    There is still a long way until the US elections. Bush could still invade Iran. he could trigger ww3. Under the Patriot act he could well introduce martial law and possibly delay the elections. His move would be to delay them permanently. WW3 could very well bring in the world leader of the New World Order his father spoke of in the early nineties.

    I suspect that NMO was temporarily abandoned after Iraq. Saddam was given time. The US could’ve easily dealt with him then but for some reason bit the bullet and backed off. G W has been given the mantle.

    He has presently turned to other internal affairs to seem distracted.
    He wants homeland support to curry local favour and then a sudden strike into Iran, using again the flimsy excuse of WMD. He has described himself as a war president. History will echo from 1939.

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  23. Rex Widerstrom (5,354 comments) says:

    Obama & Oprah raises an interesting campaign finance question. If Oprah tells her legions of dull-witted viewers to go out and buy a book, they’ll do it. Millions of them paid good money to sit through “The Color Purple” without gouging out their eyeballs, or at the very least marching up to the box office and demanding a refund.

    People queue to get in to her studio to see a closeted dwarf bounce on a couch. They all went and bought a book, claimed to love it, then when it was found their central diety had been scammed they turned on the book with equal ferocity.

    In short, she has an army of automatons ready to do her bidding. So what if she was to tell them all to donate, just up to the maximum allowable campaign contribution, to Obama?

    He gets millions of dollars, all perfectly legally.

    So what happens under the EFB if a Svengali-like figure commands his or her followers to donate to a political party?

    Just imagine if the wealthier members of EB’s sent their followers a cheque (which they’re perfectly entitled to do) and then urged those same followers to make multiple individual donations to a party or to candidates of whom they approved?

    Is that another hole in the EFB wide enough to drive a stampede of Oprah’s cattle-like followers through?

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  24. Yvette (2,820 comments) says:

    Winston Peters – Hansard – 04/12/07
    ” The campaign period we are asked to have is no different from that in the UK. ”

    Is that true?

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  25. Steve (4,563 comments) says:

    General debate,
    Done your money with shady Finance Companies?
    Look at EUFA http://www.eufa.co.nz
    Govt don’t seem to be interested at the moment, GST take?
    Key word is Bridgecorp, no Xmas pressy for us :(

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  26. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    Just imagine if the wealthier members of EB’s sent their followers a cheque (which they’re perfectly entitled to do) and then urged those same followers to make multiple individual donations to a party or to candidates of whom they approved?

    Using a legislative stick to control the funding of democratic voices will be like herding cats. What you have suggested is (and will be) a perfectly legal way to fund political activity.

    The Labour government, aided by mute poodles with sub-100 IQs are truely desperate.

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  27. Tauhei Notts (1,714 comments) says:

    This is daily comment so I can post off key.
    Sullen Cullen spoke on radio today about John Key bringing Cullen’s missus into the debate.
    Back in 1984 a bird rode into the East Cape electorate on the back of David Lange. She helped break up a marriage and now lives in Taradale.
    The logical sequence for Cullen’s anger is that any useless Labour Party woman who spreads her legs for a current parliamentarian, is exempt from criticism.

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  28. toby1845 (194 comments) says:

    When Cullen refers to his wife, does he mean:

    a. Anne Collins.

    b. The wife that he left for Anne Collins.

    Does anyone know?

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  29. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    Yvette “Winston Peters – Hansard – 04/12/07
    ” The campaign period we are asked to have is no different from that in the UK. ”

    Is that true?”
    Yes it is: see:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_Parties,_Elections_and_Referendums_Act_2000
    The Act places strict limits on the amount each party may spend in the run-up to the election (how that time period is defined depends on the type of election). The current limit for elections to the UK Parliament in Westminster stands at £30,000 per constituency contested within 365 days of a General Election, up to a maximum of £18.84 million.
    For the full thing: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts2000/20000041.htm

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  30. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    However, I believe in the UK they took a little longer to setup, consult and acclimatise the electorate and civill service to the process than they are proposing here in NZ

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  31. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    Lee C, the critical word there is consult. Labour hasn’t done this because one can’t steal votes by being transparent and honest.

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  32. Pascal (1,969 comments) says:

    Of course, we need the NZ version implemented so Labour can buy this election. So chop-chop, no time to do it properly.

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  33. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    One of the most important aspects of managing elections lies in regulating the amount of money that candidates and parties may spend. Unlike the United States, which limits the amounts which individuals and groups can contribute to election campaigns, the historical Canadian approach was to limit the amounts that candidates and parties can spend. However, Canadian federal election financing rules have changed considerably since 2004. New rules were brought in at the start of 2004 to limit any individual from contributing more than $5,000 in any calendar year to a party and its candidates. Corporations and trade unions are capped at $1,000 per calendar year. The limits on individual donations were subject to an inflation adjustment and stand at $5,200 for the current fiscal year ending Here is Canada’s law for interest:
    http://www.sfu.ca/~aheard/elections/laws.html
    March 31, 2006; corporate and union donations remained fixed at $1,000. Parliament passed new limits on political donations that came into effect on 2007. Corporations and trade unions now can no longer give money directly to political parties or candidates. Individuals are limited to donating no more than $1,100 to each of the political parties, ridings associations, and individual candidates; donations to individuals may be made at each stage of riding nomination, nomination, election campaigning, and party leadership nominations.

    Note the stuff about Unions.

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  34. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    The Education Ministry has uncovered a lost tribe of 5000 children it admits have “slipped through the cracks” and are not enrolled at any school.

    5000 kids learning (without realising) that prison and/or welfare are quite likely to be their life lot. What a waste of human potential.

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  35. Pascal (1,969 comments) says:

    We’re doing it a tad differently though, Unions are given carte-blanche in their spending, aren’t they?

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  36. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    Yes Pascal it is called a ‘level playing field’.

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  37. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    Trivia-101: ‘Brilliant fleece con’ is an anagram of ‘Electoral Finance Bill’

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