General Debate 10 December 2007

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dime

posted this in another thread.. but no answers..
anyone care to comment?

QUICK QUESTION:

has the international media picked up on this disaster of a bill??

has anyone put out press releases?? how bout one to reuters??

NEW ZEALAND make it illegal to criticise government or something similar.

compare helen to chavez.. that type of thing.

helen would stop the bill if there was international condemnation.

imagine the banner on CNN and Fox news all day – NZ make it illegal to…
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December 10, 2007 11:31am
BeShakey

I don’t think the international media is so easily fooled. Besides which, you have a very limited view of interenational affairs if you think they should drop Guatanemo, Zimbabwe, Palestine/Israel etc etc, and start looking at the EFB as a real international outrage.
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December 10, 2007 11:34am
Andrew W

Labour has deliberately made the EFB a very complicated issue, the international media like things simple.

“NZ make it illegal to…” can you finish your own sentence, in less than 20 words?
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December 10, 2007 11:37am
hinamanu

Foreign politicians will already understand the implications.

Obviously, mum’s the word,, conspiracy ??

she’s with the new Ajussy PM right now,

any qs from him??
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December 10, 2007 11:43am
Tane

Dime, the international media are aware that NZ is one of the freest, most democratic countries in the world. They also understand that campaign finance reform along the lines of the EFB is a perfectly legitimate protection of democracy. Comparing Helen Clark to Hugo Chavez just makes you look stupid for so many reasons.
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December 10, 2007 11:50am
Redbaiter

“Dime, the international media are aware that NZ is one of the freest, most democratic countries in the world.”

The international media are a gang of left wing sycophants. They’d be cheering this outrage on. Chavez and Castro are their dahlings. Klark would fit right in. They love communist totalitarians.
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December 10, 2007 12:03pm
Johnboy

“Comparing Helen Clark to Hugo Chavez just makes you look stupid”

Spot on there Tane: Chavez = 49% support. Helens mob = 38% and falling.
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December 10, 2007 12:03pm
PhilBest

Redbaiter is right. The international media, i.e. the journalists themselves, are largely in support of creeping one-world totalitarian socialist government. They’d probably luuuuuurve Helen as UN Secretary General.

It would be interesting to see what some of the more rightwing US media would say about NZ though, but most of them would regard us as but a flea on the backside of international events.
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December 10, 2007 12:14pm
Redbaiter

“Comparing Helen Clark to Hugo Chavez just makes you look stupid for so many reasons.”

Commie code for “We wish you’d stop making those accurate comparisons”.
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December 10, 2007 12:23pm
dime

stupid?

this bill is designed to keep her in power longer.. a shame we dont have a constituion like venezuela that would kick her out after x amount of years.

helen loves the UN.. would only take a few countries media to criticise her and shed back off.

one of my dreams is to see her nominated to be the UN secretary General.. only to have the US veto her 😛

one good thing about labour though – they have weakened our armed forces to such an extent, they couldnt govern NZ by force 🙂
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December 10, 2007 12:33pm
BeShakey

I love the conspiracy theories here. The NZ media is out to get us, the international media is out to get us, international scientists are out to get us, the police are out to get us. Ever wonder why you aren’t taken seriously?
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December 10, 2007 1:20pm
llew

BeShakey, if you’re not with us, you’re against us!

Are you out to get us?

🙂
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December 10, 2007 1:36pm
Redbaiter

“Ever wonder why you aren’t taken seriously?”

Why would “we” wonder any such thing when we witness the immense amount of effort the left (such as You Beshakey, the Standard, KBB and so many other desperate and twisted leftist trolls) put in to attempting to discredit “us”.??? Obviously what “we” write here is of absolutely no consequence.
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December 10, 2007 2:07pm
Colonel Masters

Dime says:
[quote]one good thing about labour though – they have weakened our armed forces to such an extent, they couldnt govern NZ by force :)[/quote]

That’s when Helen’s good mates, the Chinese Government, are happy to step in in a “peace-keeping” role.
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December 10, 2007 2:12pm
Johnboy

“I love the conspiracy theories here.——-“. Yeah BeFlakey it isnt true then that the EFB is the liars party masterplan to get everyone who conspires against dear leaders 1000 year reich.
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December 10, 2007 2:39pm
bwakile

If there is any conspiracy theory going on here it is an extremely well thought out plan by Labour, implemented step by step over time, to gain permanent control of the government benches.

They have relied our apathy and the idea that this could never happen in good old NZ.

Rural NZ woke up 3 years ago, now the cities are working it out.

“You can fool some of the people some of the time but not all the people all the time”
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December 10, 2007 3:04pm
PhilBest

dime Says:
December 10th, 2007 at 12:33 pm

“one good thing about labour though – they have weakened our armed forces to such an extent, they couldnt govern NZ by force”

And they couldn’t chuck Helen out like Bananarama did to the Fijian equivalent of Liarbour.
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December 10, 2007 3:06pm
Johnboy

With all the lovey-dovey with KRudd I predict an Aussie style disarmnament of the populace is not too far away on the horizon after all it is easier to lead the sheeple to the slaughter if you take their weapons away first.
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December 10, 2007 3:17pm
llew

after all it is easier to lead the sheeple to the slaughter if you take their weapons away first.

Wow metaphor & half! So who is arming these sheep? They should probably be tackled first.
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December 10, 2007 3:54pm
Phil

I’m suprised no-one has mentioned the “Double O” yet; Obama and Oprah.

Looks to me like a calculated move to destabilise Hillary Clinton’s main support base – white women voters. It could backfire terribly if Oprahs personality is allowed too much free range in the campaign.
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December 10, 2007 5:18pm
hinamanu

“It would be interesting to see what some of the more rightwing US media would say about NZ though,”

The incredible irony of all this is that the US fought hard lost wars to stem communism and when it happens here they say nothing.

This tells me they weren’t fighting Communism at all, just making war as an excuse to fight. The American people have just got to be the most naieve population of the entire world.
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December 10, 2007 5:26pm
hinamanu

“I’m suprised no-one has mentioned the “Double O” yet; Obama and Oprah.”

Oprah is more poltically savvy than she lets on.

She won’t go for officw because she knows poltical advisors will only curtail and stiffle her. Outside the white House she can advise and help far more effectively without restriction and red tape.

There is still a long way until the US elections. Bush could still invade Iran. he could trigger ww3. Under the Patriot act he could well introduce martial law and possibly delay the elections. His move would be to delay them permanently. WW3 could very well bring in the world leader of the New World Order his father spoke of in the early nineties.

I suspect that NMO was temporarily abandoned after Iraq. Saddam was given time. The US could’ve easily dealt with him then but for some reason bit the bullet and backed off. G W has been given the mantle.

He has presently turned to other internal affairs to seem distracted.
He wants homeland support to curry local favour and then a sudden strike into Iran, using again the flimsy excuse of WMD. He has described himself as a war president. History will echo from 1939.
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December 10, 2007 5:39pm
Rex Widerstrom

Obama & Oprah raises an interesting campaign finance question. If Oprah tells her legions of dull-witted viewers to go out and buy a book, they’ll do it. Millions of them paid good money to sit through “The Color Purple” without gouging out their eyeballs, or at the very least marching up to the box office and demanding a refund.

People queue to get in to her studio to see a closeted dwarf bounce on a couch. They all went and bought a book, claimed to love it, then when it was found their central diety had been scammed they turned on the book with equal ferocity.

In short, she has an army of automatons ready to do her bidding. So what if she was to tell them all to donate, just up to the maximum allowable campaign contribution, to Obama?

He gets millions of dollars, all perfectly legally.

So what happens under the EFB if a Svengali-like figure commands his or her followers to donate to a political party?

Just imagine if the wealthier members of EB’s sent their followers a cheque (which they’re perfectly entitled to do) and then urged those same followers to make multiple individual donations to a party or to candidates of whom they approved?

Is that another hole in the EFB wide enough to drive a stampede of Oprah’s cattle-like followers through?
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December 10, 2007 6:37pm
Yvette

Winston Peters – Hansard – 04/12/07
” The campaign period we are asked to have is no different from that in the UK. ”

Is that true?
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December 10, 2007 7:50pm
Steve

General debate,
Done your money with shady Finance Companies?
Look at EUFA http://www.eufa.co.nz
Govt don’t seem to be interested at the moment, GST take?
Key word is Bridgecorp, no Xmas pressy for us 🙁
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December 10, 2007 9:11pm
krazykiwi

Just imagine if the wealthier members of EB’s sent their followers a cheque (which they’re perfectly entitled to do) and then urged those same followers to make multiple individual donations to a party or to candidates of whom they approved?

Using a legislative stick to control the funding of democratic voices will be like herding cats. What you have suggested is (and will be) a perfectly legal way to fund political activity.

The Labour government, aided by mute poodles with sub-100 IQs are truely desperate.
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December 10, 2007 9:22pm
grumpyoldhori

Generation conservative chickenhawks.
Heh, what an evil bugger.

http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=gFGit_tZDqs
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December 10, 2007 10:01pm
Tauhei Notts

This is daily comment so I can post off key.
Sullen Cullen spoke on radio today about John Key bringing Cullen’s missus into the debate.
Back in 1984 a bird rode into the East Cape electorate on the back of David Lange. She helped break up a marriage and now lives in Taradale.
The logical sequence for Cullen’s anger is that any useless Labour Party woman who spreads her legs for a current parliamentarian, is exempt from criticism.
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December 10, 2007 10:03pm
toby1845

When Cullen refers to his wife, does he mean:

a. Anne Collins.

b. The wife that he left for Anne Collins.

Does anyone know?
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December 11, 2007 7:09am
Lee C

Yvette “Winston Peters – Hansard – 04/12/07
” The campaign period we are asked to have is no different from that in the UK. ”

Is that true?”
Yes it is: see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_Parties,_Elections_and_Referendums_Act_2000
The Act places strict limits on the amount each party may spend in the run-up to the election (how that time period is defined depends on the type of election). The current limit for elections to the UK Parliament in Westminster stands at £30,000 per constituency contested within 365 days of a General Election, up to a maximum of £18.84 million.
For the full thing: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts2000/20000041.htm
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December 11, 2007 7:57am
Lee C

However, I believe in the UK they took a little longer to setup, consult and acclimatise the electorate and civill service to the process than they are proposing here in NZ
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December 11, 2007 7:59am
krazykiwi

Lee C, the critical word there is consult. Labour hasn’t done this because one can’t steal votes by being transparent and honest.
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December 11, 2007 8:17am
Pascal

Of course, we need the NZ version implemented so Labour can buy this election. So chop-chop, no time to do it properly.
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December 11, 2007 8:21am
Lee C

One of the most important aspects of managing elections lies in regulating the amount of money that candidates and parties may spend. Unlike the United States, which limits the amounts which individuals and groups can contribute to election campaigns, the historical Canadian approach was to limit the amounts that candidates and parties can spend. However, Canadian federal election financing rules have changed considerably since 2004. New rules were brought in at the start of 2004 to limit any individual from contributing more than $5,000 in any calendar year to a party and its candidates. Corporations and trade unions are capped at $1,000 per calendar year. The limits on individual donations were subject to an inflation adjustment and stand at $5,200 for the current fiscal year ending Here is Canada’s law for interest:
http://www.sfu.ca/~aheard/elections/laws.html
March 31, 2006; corporate and union donations remained fixed at $1,000. Parliament passed new limits on political donations that came into effect on 2007. Corporations and trade unions now can no longer give money directly to political parties or candidates. Individuals are limited to donating no more than $1,100 to each of the political parties, ridings associations, and individual candidates; donations to individuals may be made at each stage of riding nomination, nomination, election campaigning, and party leadership nominations.

Note the stuff about Unions.
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December 11, 2007 8:30am
krazykiwi

The Education Ministry has uncovered a lost tribe of 5000 children it admits have “slipped through the cracks” and are not enrolled at any school.

5000 kids learning (without realising) that prison and/or welfare are quite likely to be their life lot. What a waste of human potential.
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December 11, 2007 8:33am
Pascal

We’re doing it a tad differently though, Unions are given carte-blanche in their spending, aren’t they?
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December 11, 2007 8:43am
Lee C

Yes Pascal it is called a ‘level playing field’.
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December 11, 2007 9:26am
krazykiwi

Trivia-101: ‘Brilliant fleece con’ is an anagram of ‘Electoral Finance Bill’
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December 11, 2007 9:46am

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