General Debate 11 December 2007

December 11th, 2007 at 9:57 am by David Farrar

Will the House rise this week?

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50 Responses to “General Debate 11 December 2007”

  1. Graeme Edgeler (3,289 comments) says:

    Rise? Yes. Until next week :-)

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  2. Reg (539 comments) says:

    Why don’t you think they will finish this week Graeme?

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  3. GerryandthePM (328 comments) says:

    Sinking, rather than rising, surely?

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  4. Graeme Edgeler (3,289 comments) says:

    Today will see the conclusion of the EFB committee stage, the third reading of the tertiary reform legislation, and probably some of the tax bill committee stage.

    Tomorrow is a members’ day.

    Thursday will see the third reading of the Electoral Finance Bill, and perhaps the conclusion of the tax bill in committee. Then the Government still the tax bill third reading for next week, and 14 first readings it wants done before the break. There are a couple of valedictories from retiring Labour members, and the adjournment debate to conclude as well.

    There’s no way the could rise this week unless they went into not just urgency, but extraordinary urgency – and they’re not allowed to do that in circumstances such as these.

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  5. Reg (539 comments) says:

    Thanks Graeme

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  6. Calculus (74 comments) says:

    Will they rise above the corrupt practice they are proposing with the EFB and adjourn proceedings until the bill can be properly created with a mandate from the people ?

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  7. John Ansell (874 comments) says:

    Bring on 2008. Can’t wait.

    Pass the bill and reap the whirlwind.

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  8. dc (144 comments) says:

    Another week, another $653k (+ the cost of a replacement system) wasted: http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/newsdetail1.asp?storyID=129116 .

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  9. Yvette (2,809 comments) says:

    Winston Peters – Hansard – Tuesday, 4 December 2007
    on the Electoral Finance Bill

    “. . . Those members’ arguments are humbug arguments, and I ask them please not to tell me again that people died for what they are talking about. Men and women died in the wars. Men and women from New Zealand died in the world wars so that their country would not be run from outside, so that it would not be governed from outside, and so that elections would not be organised from outside. That is why they died, so let us not hear the hypocrisy from the National Party members one more time that somehow calling on the sacrifice of the dead gives some colour of right to their spurious arguments . . .”

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  10. Reg (539 comments) says:

    Extract from headline page A6 NZ Herald:
    …’shallow and error-prone”…..
    Helen Clark describing her Cabinet?
    No believe it or not, but thats how she portrayed the Media at a conference of the Journalism Education Assoiation.

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  11. bwakile (757 comments) says:

    Yvette

    http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=130038302

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  12. James Sleep (477 comments) says:

    I have to agree with Graeme, I do not think the house is going to rise this week.

    Nationals goal has been to delay it, that is exactly what they have done.

    But hey, time prevails.

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  13. thehawkreturns (162 comments) says:

    The longer Peters goes on like this the more the RSA memebers will vote National. Go Winnie! Your time is coming!

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  14. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “No believe it or not, but thats how she portrayed the Media at a conference of the Journalism Education Assoiation.”

    Funny thing is the media is largely her production. Maybe she’s still simmering over a few of the non conformists- (Fran for example.)

    Imagine how quickly these useless commies would go down the political tube if we had a real media.

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  15. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    What is going on in our country, a child is murdered by her mother (immigrant mother) and all the bitch gets is 120 hour suspended sentence.

    I really want to hear the left wing and PC wankers try and justify that.

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  16. Reg (539 comments) says:

    It wouldn’t be a problem to them big bruv.
    17,000 unborn kids were murdered by Government paid medical practitioners last year and nobody batted an eye-lid.

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  17. big bruv (13,884 comments) says:

    Reg

    I respect your point of view but that is not an argument I want to get into, IMHO the two are entirely different issues.

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  18. Lindsay Addie (1,507 comments) says:

    Question No.2 in Parliament today:

    JOHN KEY to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by her statements, in relation to the New Zealand Herald’s coverage of the Electoral Finance Bill, that “There have been weeks, if not months, with full-blooded attacks, front-page headlines, editorials, attack stories, cartoons, you name it.”, and that complaining to the Press Council “just doesn’t get you anywhere”; if so, why?

    Clark has left her self open for attack making comments like those, especially those where she doesn’t like cartoons that make fun of her. Well madam get a life and develop a sense of humour.

    Also English has a question to King asking about clause 80(d) of the EFB:

    Hon BILL ENGLISH to the Minister of Justice: Does she stand by her assurance that before the Electoral Finance Bill is passed she will give the House an interpretation of clause 80(d), so that members know how to comply with the law; if so, when will she be giving this interpretation?

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  19. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    yea just a slight difference in the issues.. thats the sorta tangent the left would use to justify the judges decision.

    imagine if it were a man that commited that crime.

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  20. gd (2,286 comments) says:

    When any Prime Minister declares war on the MSM you know their time is very limited. They have bought into a fight they cannot win.

    The extraordinary circumstances in this case is that Clark has enjoyed the easiest ride in my 35 years memory of politics.

    Until now she has had probably 65% plus of the MSM eating out of her hand on a regular basis with only a few who have done the job any quality MSM should do.

    Most have fawned over her hanging on every word like lap poodles frightened to upset their mistress.

    Now she will find that will all change. The tone of their reporting will be the obvious sign. No more rehashing press releases.

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  21. AGJ (562 comments) says:

    Leighton Smith made the comment this morning that Peter Dunne has previously said that he would not vote for the EFB under urgency.

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  22. Reg (539 comments) says:

    Spot on gd, rats tend to get an inkling when a ship is sinking!

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  23. Buggerlugs (1,592 comments) says:

    “About a quarter of the 50 or so spin doctors at Auckland City Council could lose their jobs as part of a $1 million cost-saving exercise.” – NZ Herald

    50? Fuckin’ hell! That’s one of the biggest PR companies in Auckland!
    Perhaps the AkCC CEO might need a bullet too…

    What the hell do they all do?

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  24. Buggerlugs (1,592 comments) says:

    AGJ – yeah, it’s in Dunne’s form email he sends when you send him one calling him an EFB government asslicker.

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  25. Lindsay Addie (1,507 comments) says:

    Dunne not voting for urgency on the EFB won’t swing the vote anyway.

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  26. MikeE (555 comments) says:

    What I want to know, is there ANY way that the Misuse of Drugs (BZP Amendement) Bill will make it into its 2nd and 3rd readings this week and be passed?

    As Anderton sent out pamplets all over the place proudly proclaiming BZP would be banned on the 18th of December, and I know a lot of retailers would really like to know if they will be in breach of the law come the 18th or not!

    If it can’t be read, then it sounds like there won’ tbe a ban untill Feb next year. Can someone who is an expert on these thigns please confirm for me?

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  27. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    Just reading todays Hutt News. Article about Chris Hipkins says he has a BA majoring in political science and criminology. I guess when he worked for Mallard and Dear Leaders dept. the second part of his training was most useful.

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  28. Yvette (2,809 comments) says:

    In the same attack on the media, Helen Clark also criticised TV3 political editor for a recent comment that politicians always lie.
    “It’s important that scrutiny not be confused with cynicism because in the end that grossly undermines the political process. If the public is encouraged to think everyone in public life i a dishonest person, where does it leave us?”

    It’s simple, Helen: just don’t tell lies.

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  29. freethinker (691 comments) says:

    Yvette – ammendent suggestion – just stop telling lies. Joke – when do you know Helens telling lies- anytime her mouths moving.

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  30. david (2,557 comments) says:

    Dunne will not need to vote on urgency for the EFB. It will be taken as part of “normal business”. Urgency will be sought for all the matters that have been put aside (like BZP) while the EFB has been in the House.

    Neat little shimmy, a sidestep by Cullen, Dunne doesn’t have to go back on his word OR vote against the Govt. He shows a dummy, steps off the left foot and is away down the sideline for a touchdown in the corner. The referee went home at half time and the touch judges are the try scorer’s blind second cousins who missed both the blatant forward pass and the foot in touch at about the 22m line.

    Labour hold up the Cup and claim victory by way of superior play and dominant strategy

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  31. NX (504 comments) says:

    Lindsay Addie wrote:

    Clark has left her self open for attack making comments like those, especially those where she doesn’t like cartoons that make fun of her. Well madam get a life and develop a sense of humour.

    Yes that article epitomised every thing I don’t like about Clark – the Dearest Leader. She was arrogant and had delusions or grandeur.

    I don’t know why she thinks she’s go great that the media can’t criticise her (or anyone else for that matter thanks to the EFB).

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  32. NX (504 comments) says:

    Herald NZ:

    She had noticed the BBC’s usual objectivity had “slipped” during the invasion of Iraq. “You would sometimes find people talking about ‘our troops’. Well, that cannot be.”

    ^ I though this line summed up the academic aloofness that is our Dear Leader.

    For goodness sakes Helen. One can just imagine that type of PC crazed department she runs on the ninth floor.

    For someone that is so ‘politically sensitive’ she always manages to offend me.

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  33. vto (1,128 comments) says:

    yvette, well said. If Clark finds that people are becoming cycnical about politicians then IT IS THEIR OWN FAULT. They always never give an honest answer. They are dishonest in answering questions.

    eg. big money influencing elections – well the actual govt spends the most.

    eg. secret trusts – nothing has been done about them

    what a fucking crock. clark is losing the plot if she has started blaming others.

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  34. vto (1,128 comments) says:

    and e.g. ‘failed policies of the past’ – which clark has hardly touched and lets provide us with todays prosperous times.

    I often wonder if politicians actually think people dont notice their lies.

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  35. vto (1,128 comments) says:

    and e.g. ‘I didn’t notice we were doing 140kmh thru a residential area’.

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  36. TC (31 comments) says:

    ‘No recollection’
    It is amazing how the lady of detail has very poor recall over her questionable antics.
    I remember Muldoon, Clark is cut from the same cloth

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  37. pdm (844 comments) says:

    Is there any value in opposition parties `drawing out’ debate on the other five Bills I see coming up on the screen for debate today.

    The thought being if they filibuster enough on those they will make the 3rd reading of the EFB impossible before Xmas.

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  38. Rex Widerstrom (5,354 comments) says:

    TC says:

    I remember Muldoon, Clark is cut from the same cloth

    Actually, when Muldoon said he was going to do something you could bet he was actually going to do exactly what he said. Even when I vehemently disagreed with him, I had to acknowledge that with Muldoon, what you saw was what you got. I can’t say the same of any leading political figure today.

    If Muldoon’s motorcade had done 140 km/h he’d have simply said “I’m the Prime Minister, I can do what I like, and just be thankful I didn’t have my driver run down some hippies on the way. Now get out the way, peasant” :-D

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  39. Bevan (3,924 comments) says:

    It seems the lovely chap over at kiwiblogblog are a little upset Bell was bashed in:

    http://kiwiblogblog.wordpress.com/2007/12/11/we-should-care-william-bell-was-bashed/

    Now if that is the poster child the left want, they can have him.

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  40. hinamanu (2,352 comments) says:

    “I’m the Prime Minister, I can do what I like,”

    Muldoon was a hard man, no denying it.

    However, even never being a National supporter I agree with his major policies in hindsight.

    ‘Think Big’ would have made us independent from the oil rich middle east and American imperialism. The socialists got rid of it as soon as they got in. One of the most traitorous acts they have commited short of actually taking away the treason laws to commit treason.

    The wage freeze was also a common sense factor needed at the time.
    Even now when workers get rises, prices go up. I don’t think the BRT ever speak of the business community leading by example to keep prices down. The Dairy Board has been one of the worst offenders. The price of milk and butter is ridiculous. They somehow have us lead to believe despite evidence to the contrary by dairy farms being in close proximity to local centres that we actually have our milk imported from a far off galaxy. One of the biggest PR hoaxes in history. Armies all over the world should learn their camouflage techniques in the art of not being there when you actually are. The US and their stealth bombers have nothing on our dairy board.

    Carless days is debateable and many question the authenticity of its introduction. certainly wasn’t going to stop whats happening today and the only reason carless days is being mooted again is because of the socialists taking away ‘Think Big.’

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  41. Lindsay Addie (1,507 comments) says:

    hinemanu,

    You’re a brave man defending Muldoon’s polices. You need to do a lot more reading about Think Big for starters. The policy was an election bribe of the worst kind. Furthermore Muldoon’s economic policies all but bought NZ to it’s knees. Finally Muldoon’s behaviour immediately after the 1984 election where he refused to co-operate in the process of handing power to the new govt was disgraceful.

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  42. baxter (893 comments) says:

    I also recall the days of Robbie Muldoon, how both as Opposition Leader and then Prime Minister he could pack out any hall in the country with hundreds outside. He was a man of great integrity and it saddens me that National should disown such a man. Think Big was the result of enormous problems at the time. The oil shock for instance wasn’t just a matter of the enormous sudden price increases it was also a matter of very doubtful accessability.///I guess much of the malevolence shown towards him today is the result of left wing Political Science University Lecturers demonstrating how they are able to manipulate history,

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  43. hinamanu (2,352 comments) says:

    so I stand vindicated!

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  44. Lindsay Addie (1,507 comments) says:

    “so I stand vindicated!”

    Why?

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  45. Graeme Edgeler (3,289 comments) says:

    Looks like I was wrong. After the committee stage, the House went into urgency on the other matters the Government wants to progress before the summer break (BZP not among them).

    There will be no more question time this week, or members’ time and they’ll get through those matters, sitting extended hours, before getting to the third reading of the EFB (which won’t be dealt with under urgency). It, and the adjournment debate will probably be on Tuesday.

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  46. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    Anyway… I’ve said before that media wins elections and Helen knows this. Her rather chummy, veiled admonishment of the press was a hint that they are pushing her patience, but had better think long and hard if they wish to continue to criticise her policies.

    The EFB will be a perfect device for stifling free expression in the press, during election years of course (at first).

    Who was it who informed me recently that the Television media have been receiving government directives about what they can and can’t discuss viz-a-vis government policy recently?

    Why is Mallard bulllying humble civill servants if it isn’t because they need compliance when it comes to writing copy for the media onslaught they plan during the election. You know, instructions to promote the ‘Labour’ government without actually saying the word ‘Labour’… It’s not hard, it’s all been piloted previously by the tobacco industry….

    This whole process is about winning the media. Media wins elections.

    The problem is if the media fail to play along, then Helen and co will have littel option but to force them to do so.
    The EFB is a valuable first step. Helen will be much less ‘fluffy’ in her criticism of the press and television news if she wins the election and has the rather big stick of the EFB to thrash them with the next time. mark my words….
    but I think the Herald knows that already.

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  47. Lindsay Addie (1,507 comments) says:

    Re Clarks outburst about the media Colin Espiner has written a piece in his blog. It has a go at Clark:

    Maybe the PM is just upset because of the tirade from most media outlets against the Electoral Finance Bill. She singled out the New Zealand Herald in her speech, but there isn’t a newspaper in the country that I know of that has written in favour of this legislation.

    I was interested to see Clark also opined that “senior press gallery journalists” – who I presume would include myself – shouldn’t be blogging, saying it was a disturbing trend because it allowed opinion-leaders to rush to judgment before having a chance to think through an argument. That’s an interesting point. I suppose it is true one has less time to consider an argument in a weblog. But equally, it is easy to correct or change course as well.

    The days of newspapers being simply a journal of record are mostly behind us, which I consider to be largely a good thing, although I’m not sure Clark thinks so. There certainly is more campaigning journalism and opinion and commentary around these days than when I started, when it was pretty much limited to the editorial.

    I don’t remember the Prime Minister being so critical when more of the commentary was praiseworthy of her government, of course. I doubt she’ll be contacting transTasman to complain at getting top marks in its yearly ranking of MPs. Oh yes, that’s right – she likes Ian Templeton. He’s old enough to remember history.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/blogs/politics/2007/12/11/she-said-we-were-too-young/

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  48. Steve (4,560 comments) says:

    Lee C, post at 7.46

    Yeah the media try hard, but I have not seen a photo of H1 recently that had a happy smile. Very sad, lemons for breakfast smiles only.
    This is a very worried person on the last leg.

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  49. MajorBloodnok (361 comments) says:

    A question: what happened about the law suit concerning the EFB?

    Is it going to be heard before the 3rd reading? Or is this another case of government passing laws before the courts can hear the arguments (and embarrass the Attorney General)?

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  50. hinamanu (2,352 comments) says:

    “so I stand vindicated!”

    Why

    First of all I wasn’t talking about the man, I was talking about his policies.
    I was reflecting on how he dealt with issues that are still current and worsening today.

    It was true he acted like a wuss at the end of his tenure, but his policies showed vision, we are still suffering from the same crude economic conditions of his time. There is no going forward, the world is stuck in a rut. Changes are cosmetic, but the rot is ingrained. When we still have not moved on after nearly 30 years we should discern govts have no real teeth to deal with issues.

    For instance, take the traffic police. Govt cannot keep up with international crude prices. Therefore they cannot keep running the huge fleet policing the roads. The solution is to diminish the public fleet.
    Also, out price the marginalised by rising the cost of private car ownership and keep that sector of the public off the roads. This of course is done by only providing newer models for sale. which by next year means only 2000 models and up will be allowed for sale. All this means the police fleet can slowly be withdrawn. Possibly police numbers also.

    Its all correlation and putting 1+1 together while you argue semantics about past personalities and their temper tantrums.

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