General Debate 18 December 2007

December 18th, 2007 at 1:02 pm by David Farrar

And on the 7th day of Christmas my true love gave to me an Electoral Finance Act.

Tags:

60 Responses to “General Debate 18 December 2007”

  1. Ross Nixon (614 comments) says:

    The bitch!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  2. Bevan (3,965 comments) says:

    Um DPF, are you saying that Helen Clark is your true love?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  3. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    Is the EFB the thin end of the wedge in the Labour party? I think so.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  4. Tane (1,096 comments) says:

    The bitch!

    And on the eighth day of Christmas Ross Nixon gave to me some good old fashioned Kiwiblog misogyny.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  5. Hoolian (220 comments) says:

    Its so interesting though if you look at the behavour of long-term governments. National during the 1990s got a tad dillusional too. They all go senile in the end – like a political King Lear

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  6. Hoolian (220 comments) says:

    Tane – just a not of interest. Does anyone even visit the Standard? It always seems very empty. And never has robust debate or even vaguely insightful comments (don’t get me started on the posts), so how successful do you think it is? It seems a total flop to me.

    Regardless, it must suck having DPF’s blog having continued high levels of traffic. A bit green with envy, are you?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  7. Bevan (3,965 comments) says:

    The bitch!

    And on the eighth day of Christmas Ross Nixon gave to me some good old fashioned Kiwiblog misogyny.

    The countdown to Christmas decreases, it does not increase dumbarse.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  8. ManukauMum (134 comments) says:

    Not THAT kind of act, dummies! DPF must mean that other type of act, although I’m not sure how you do it “Electoral Finance”-ly.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  9. Rachel Boyack (2 comments) says:

    Um, the 12 days of Christmas actually happen AFTER Christmas Day. Everyone gets a “duh” on that one.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  10. Bevan (3,965 comments) says:

    So Im the dumbarse then?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  11. Wycroft (873 comments) says:

    A huge sack of prawns to the first Australian, or Kiwi living in Australia, anyone in fact, who takes out John Bracewell, thus removing this embarrassing nut job from the public eye.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  12. Castafiore (263 comments) says:

    Tane,
    Why don’t you accept the simple fact that this (EFB) is a sledgehammer to crack a walnut?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  13. hinamanu (2,352 comments) says:

    “The bitch!”

    Sticks and stones is the motto I think she would apply to herself at this time Ross.

    But I seriously believe that if Labour wins the elections next year they will be secretly flabbergasted and mystified. I mean really shaking their heads and wondering how dense the electorate really is.

    from here on in if they get in they can get away with anything.

    They could make Tim Shadbolt look like a stirring cantankerous old dinosaur who needs strict taming and conforming. They could make hi, look totally alien to all thats decent, law abiding and appalling to the democratic process they’ve almost completely ushered away.

    At the end of the day we’re just an obedient conformist society who wants to keep the status quo. There has been no status quo since 1984 and that was taken away by a Labour govt as well. 1989, they took the treason laws away and now we’re facing this sad predicament of losing our public and political voices.

    What has to happen before we understand we are in a communist police state???

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  14. democracymum (660 comments) says:

    My ultimate Xmas Gift … and I am prepared to wait about 11 months for it

    Election Night 2008

    National 60% (John Key Prime Minister)
    Labour 30% (The look on Helen’s face will be priceless)
    Act (Rodney retaining his seat and taking a few extras back in with him)

    Maori Party (Doing something about Maori crime and child abuse)

    NZ First (Gone by Xmas)
    Greens (Gone by Xmas)
    United Future (Gone by Xmas)
    Jim Anderton (Put out to pasture)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  15. Tane (1,096 comments) says:

    Tane – just a not of interest. Does anyone even visit the Standard…

    Hi Hoolian, yeah our traffic’s doing really well. By my reckoning we’d be easily the second or third most popular blog in the country and gaining. Not bad after just a few months.

    We’ve also got some pretty good discussion threads going and they regularly go from 50 to 100+ comments. It’s slowed down a bit in the lead up to Xmas but I’m sure it’ll pick up again next year.

    Anything else I can help you with?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  16. Hoolian (220 comments) says:

    No, Tane. That pretty much answers my question. Though I’m not sure how you would quantify that you are the second or third most popular blog. Do you reguarly compare stats with other blogs, or is that from your own discernment?

    Overall, its good that the Left have a standard (excuse the pun) blog that is so blatantly left-wing. I don’t agree with most (or anything) you would say but its always healthy to have discussions oversuch a diverse political spectrum. And I mean that.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  17. Nick C (340 comments) says:

    “It’s slowed down a bit in the lead up to Xmas”

    Perhaps because you are telling your readers to have a secular “xmas” and to make all their “xmas” desisions based on what is good for the enviroment.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  18. Johnboy (15,876 comments) says:

    “we’d be easily the second or third most popular blog in the country and gaining.”

    You should be the biggest blog by year end there will be a lot of unemployed lefties after the election with plenty of time on their hands for navel gazing!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  19. Sam (498 comments) says:

    An earnest letter sent to Metiria this morning (no reply yet)…

    >>Kia Ora Metiria,

    I am taking the unusual (for me at least) step of writing to a Member of Parliament because I feel sufficiently strong enough about an issue, and am perturbed at how it is being ‘fielded’.

    Firstly, I have a question to put to you as the co-drafter of “Protecting freedom of speech and fairer elections”. In the ‘Amendments negotiated by Greens’ section, you state the following:

    >>Amendments to protect freedom of speech
    1. Alter the definition of election advertising to protect issues advertising
    This means that individuals and groups will be free to campaign on the issues that are important to them, regardless of whether one or more parties is also campaigning on the same issue. The Greens come from a campaigning background and we were determined to protect the right of groups to continue to campaign. For example, Greenpeace can continue to campaign against whaling, even though it is a campaign the Green Party has a profile on.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  20. kaykaybee (153 comments) says:

    tane, second or third most popular blog?

    I’d love to see official stats, reads like a second-rate “Wolverhampton hammer and sickle”to me.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  21. Sam (498 comments) says:

    cont…

    I have been through and through this Bill looking for such an exemption for issues based advocacy, and have drawn a blank. All I keep coming back to is the broad vagueness of Section 5(1)(ii), which seems to specifically include issues based advocacy. If the intention for exemption is there, it is not clearly recorded in the Bill. I would be extremely happy if you could point to where the exemption takes effect – in the Bill (just saying it is so is not good enough for me).

    Secondly, I am a member of a small organisation that had intended to promote policies of sustainable urban development next year, to coincide with election year focus on affordable housing. Our stance was sharply critical of Key’s suggestion to relax the RMA to specifically promote the freeing up of land for residential development. This places us squarely within the gambit of EFB 5(1)(ii), and with uncertainties, the extra compliance, etc, we no longer feel confident of running such a campaign. Nice work on the freedom of speech front.

    Lastly, the manner in which you are trying to discredit the opposition to this Bill is ill-conceived, inaccurate, and likely to cost you some support. I have always voted ‘on the left’ (and Green on at least one occasion). The legislation is appallingly drafted, and while I don’t pay heed to the suggestions that this is wilfully so, I am embarrassed that our executive would even consider passing this into law. I would vote National (for the first time ever) to ensure this is repealed.

    The issue is not simply one of left versus right; it goes across the political spectrum, so your one dimensional attack on its opponents simply does you no credit at all. By trying to discredit the opposition as raving, big money, right wing lunatics, you are insulting many of your own potential supporters. You should be able to gauge from my email address that I work in a predominantly left wing institution, and the feeling amongst my colleagues is similar. This is not an issue of big money buying up elections anymore, but on the restrictions (I’ll avoid the hyperbole of a ‘direct attack’) on free speech (if it were a left/right issue, I would have thought that the left would share these views).

    Anyway, I don’t expect to be able to change your mind on the merits of this Bill (especially at this late stage), but if you at least ‘listen’ to the breadth of the opposition to this Bill, then you might understand how inappropriately you have dealt with this issue.

    I would very much appreciate a response on the question that I posed in the first point of this message, as it may impact on the proposed campaign for sustainable urban development (as mentioned above).

    Thanks very much for your time.

    Regards,
    ‘Sam’

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  22. Johnboy (15,876 comments) says:

    After the election victory when National forms the new Gov on its own I would like to see a binding referendum on MMP. If the liars party can gerrymander electoral law its only fair that National should let the people have a say in how the country should be run.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  23. first time caller (384 comments) says:

    When I visited the standard there was no meantion of the latest polls…funny that

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  24. hinamanu (2,352 comments) says:

    democracymum,,

    Your post and predictions are the stuff of dreams, and good dreams.

    I wish there was a place to save posts cause I would save this post.

    Its an utter pleasure to purvey. In fact to put it in a better light,

    A glowing verbal portrait. I am moved to bliss.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  25. democracymum (660 comments) says:

    thanks hinamanu and Merry Christmas

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  26. vto (1,128 comments) says:

    I did a wee couple of posts last night along these lines, which are a prediction for the new year;

    if this EFB gets passed today then I suspect that voting intentions will become like rapid-set cement and solidify against the helengrad facsists. It will do this for a large portion of the more political thinking peoples, which are often swinging type voters (who have been labour swingers (horrid horrid thought) in recent elections).

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  27. gd (2,286 comments) says:

    Frist time caller They are still trying to figure out which excuse to use. Pity them in the New Year when the results are even worse with the Nats up over 55 points Socialists under 35 point snad the minors all under the 5 point barrier.

    Apart from the Maori Party its goingt o be a 2 horse race with one horse (Socialists) pulling up lame in the last furlong

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  28. Adam Smith (890 comments) says:

    More on Clare Curran, the David Parker communication specialist, this from TVNZ Latest News:

    ” Curran contracted by ODHB
    Dec 18, 2007 7:44 AM

    Further details are emerging about ministry communication work undertaken by Labour Party member Clare Curran.

    She is already the centre of an official investigation as to how she was hired by the Ministry for the Environment for contract communications work in 2006.

    That contract work wasn’t tendered for and there is focus on how she got the job and whether it was influenced by Climate Change Minister David Parker.

    Now the Otago District Health Board has confirmed it contracted Curran for a number of communications projects worth over a quarter of a million dollars between 2004 and August of this year.

    The DHB says none of the contracts was subjected to a tender process”

    $250,000 not subject to tender . Just what was the nature of this work?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  29. baxter (893 comments) says:

    The Winston First Executive have postponed deciding who to donate our tax money to until after the New Year. Strange Coincidence the EFB will also be law from that date.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  30. Pascal (2,015 comments) says:

    Tane, you guys should do what DPF does and put up a monthly blog stats summary. Out of curiosity, do you only count political blogs to claim your top two or top three spot or do you count all of them?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  31. Johnboy (15,876 comments) says:

    Great stuff in the house Key got the better of Clark who could only resort to the EB excuse and her poodle jumped in to save her by biting Key on the ankle which was the higest part he could reach.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  32. infused (651 comments) says:

    hahaha Winston is attacking National of the GST… when they are donating stolen money to charity.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  33. helmet (807 comments) says:

    tane said “yeah our traffic’s doing really well. By my reckoning we’d be easily the second or third most popular blog in the country and gaining. Not bad after just a few months.”

    ..and this schmuck has the temerity to accuse DPF of vanity posts?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  34. Adam Smith (890 comments) says:

    EDEN PARK Upgrade

    Can someone explain to more how spending $240 million plus say $25 million on transport infrastructure, plus tens of millions elsewhere on rugby stadia for once off additional revenues, REVENUES, not profits is justified. I could understand it if there was ongoing benefit which yielded over a 10 year period say $200 million a year in surplus, ie revenue minus cost, so that there was say a tax take on the surplus of say $600 million plus the GST on the revenues. But on the numbers stated the investment does not seem justifiable.

    THe IRB takes the great majority of the direct revenue, so the NZRU is going to make a loss we are told. I have seen comments that say investment in the WRC is strategic. In my experience this is what people say when seeking to justify projects that do not stack up on rational criteria for investment and they cannot quantify the intangibles.

    NZRU and the Government landed us with this, and I suspect Govt bought in on the basis of ‘bread and circuses’ assuming the ABs would win in France.

    Quite frankly the Americas Cup appears on these numbers to be the better public sector investment, with a longer term spin-off for the marine sector amongst others.

    Whilst I rarely agree with much of what John Banks says, I do here, as why should Auckland ratepayers foot the bill for a white elephant, especially as no other council in the Region will stump up, whilst expecting to reap benefit from the event.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  35. helmet (807 comments) says:

    Ironically, Tane the idiot also can’t see that without Kiwiblog, his crap blog would be doing much much worse. It would be… even crapper.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  36. Tane (1,096 comments) says:

    It’s just an unscientific estimate based on comments, discussion on other blogs and our growing traffic. We’re not going to do monthly blog stats as I don’t think that really matters, I was just responding to a question from Hoolian.

    Oh and First Time Caller, regarding your comment:

    <i>When I visited the standard there was no meantion of the latest polls…funny that</i>

    You probably should have looked harder. It’s the post titled “Polls”:
    http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?cat=4

    [Alexa (and yes it is not perfect but it is only freely available service) has The Standard as the 1,412nd most read site by NZers. That's actually pretty good for a relatively new site, and is above many blogs. WhaleOil however is ranked 322nd]

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  37. Adam Smith (890 comments) says:

    SO stats do not matter – they do not matter. Ah, so evidence is no longer relevant. SO we are expected to take Tane and his chums on faith, thus in this as in so much else no evidence will be presented.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  38. Grant McKenna (1,158 comments) says:

    Hoolian said that National got a tad delusional in the 1990s as well, suggesting that all politicians in power “go senile in the end – like a political King Lear”.

    Politicians should be changed often, just as one’s baby’s nappies should be changed often, and for the same reason.

    Ah well…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  39. Tane (1,096 comments) says:

    Um, Adam, you’ll notice I used the words “By my reckoning…” rather than “The fact is…” or something similar. But hey, make a big deal out of nothing if you need something to stoke your two minutes of hate.

    If you do want to look at some stats why not go check out the work The Standard and Blogblog have done on the minimum wage?

    http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=883

    http://kiwiblogblog.wordpress.com/2007/12/18/super-sizing-the-minimum-wage/

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  40. Hoolian (220 comments) says:

    Grant McKenna – I would agree with your statement that politicians should be changed often. What happens, despite good intentions, is that they become so unattached from ‘normal’, everyday life that all they have is to run on their political and personal ambitions – i.e. they stay in power as long as they can and do nothing but propagate their own personal beliefs onto other people, with no regard as to whether or not it’s good for NZ.
    So change is good – good for the party, good for the country and definitely good for democracy.
    An electoral loss is probably the best thing Labour can hope for. It will not revitalise itself otherwise.

    And Labour should be careful. If they sink too much further in the polls they run the risk of becoming a ‘minor’ party as Clark cheerfully acclaimed National was following the 2002 election.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  41. Julian (173 comments) says:

    Another email doing the rounds today:

    http://www.spareroom.co.nz/2007/12/18/gourmet-food-store-lets-rip-at-client-via-email/

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  42. Hoolian (220 comments) says:

    Tane – “If you do want to look at some stats why not go check out the work The Standard and Blogblog have done on the minimum wage?”

    But this isn’t stats about the popularity of your blog, or even its traffic. Its stats on something completely irrelevent. I think if you’re going to claim “easily second or third” most popular blog, you should at least have some stats to back it up. Its an outrageous and effortlessly discredited assertion otherwise.

    Or is there something you don’t want to face?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  43. Julian (173 comments) says:

    Tane noone reads that rubbish you guys write at the standard. The only visits you’ll get are people going there once, realising it is a complete waste of time, and not going back.

    There’s a reason why Kiwiblog gets so much traffic.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  44. virtualmark (1,528 comments) says:

    Anyone else read the article on page A3 of today’s DomPost about how much each mayoral candidate spent on their election campaigning earlier this year?

    Yep, money buys elections. That’s why Helene Ritchie is the new Mayor of Wellington.

    Hang on. What the ???!! Maybe money can’t buy votes after all … so can someone remind me why the Brethren are such a threat to democracy?

    Or are the Greens worried that the Brethren were actually right???

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  45. Bevan (3,965 comments) says:

    [Alexa (and yes it is not perfect but it is only freely available service) has The Standard as the 1,412nd most read site by NZers. That’s actually pretty good for a relatively new site, and is above many blogs. WhaleOil however is ranked 322nd]

    Ouch, that must hurt.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  46. Johnboy (15,876 comments) says:

    Hoolian Says:

    “An electoral loss is probably the best thing Labour can hope for. It will not revitalise itself otherwise.”

    How can labour revitalise if that means replacing its collection of pol sci lecturers, failed teachers and union bagmen with another lot of the same?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  47. vto (1,128 comments) says:

    it gives me the heebee jeebees everytime I see the types who occupy labours ranks. academics, teachers, unionists.

    Don’t get me wrong – they have their place. But they should stick to it.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  48. infused (651 comments) says:

    Keys speech was spot on.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  49. democracymum (660 comments) says:

    Great Speech John!

    I notice that Helen is so threatened by John Key that she has left the chamber

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  50. Brownie () says:

    Breaking News! Mallard Guilty on Lesser Charge!

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/4328696a10.html

    He pleaded guilty to the Lesser Charge of Fighting in a public place, convicted and fined $500 to be given to Charity.

    This whole thing was a bore to start with. I actually (choke) feel a bit sorry for him.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  51. Johnboy (15,876 comments) says:

    Maybe he will give it to Starship!!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  52. ghostwhowalks (389 comments) says:

    About 200,000 workers on the lowest pay rates are to get a wage rise of up to $30 a week, after the Government agreed to lift the adult minimum wage to $12 an hour.

    Welcome to the real world. This is what will get votes not the mad yappings of the NP and ACT terriers

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  53. Adam Smith (890 comments) says:

    Hone Harawirs is now making a strong speech on EFB and setting out a principled view from a position other than the right.

    Calls it decadent and depraved legislation

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  54. AucklandChap (3 comments) says:

    Peter Dunne speaking now… he has just announced they are NOT supporting the bill??

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  55. Adam Smith (890 comments) says:

    Dunne now seeking to justify himself, refers to court of public opinion,he is using this to withdraw UF support for bill, thus he seeks to keep himself in baubles, refers to support for Labour only for balance of term.

    Quote: “Blind adherence to leading the country is arrogance……….”

    Rat has jumped ship to all intents and purposes, to save himself – what a tosser!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  56. Wycroft (873 comments) says:

    Sounds like he’s just been reading some Hunter Thompson, decadent and depraved the EFB certainly is, but it’s not Hone’s poetry.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  57. Johnboy (15,876 comments) says:

    ghostwhowalks Says:

    “About 200,000 workers on the lowest pay rates are to get a wage rise of up to $30 a week, after the Government agreed to lift the adult minimum wage to $12 an hour.”

    If they save it for a year ghost they will have enough to go to OZ where they can triple their wage after the years of success there under Johnny Howard.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  58. krazykiwi (9,189 comments) says:

    Say, has anyone else noticed a bit of taxpayer cash being splashed around in the last 4-5days

    2x maori ‘settlements’ (wellington and waikato river)

    1x Stadium (still think this is an excuse to have wads of taxpayer cash floating around an ‘undefined’ contract scope – I do hope none of it appears as now-legislated anon donations to the Labour party)

    1x Minimum wage increase

    Now nothing on their own perhaps … but these in rapid succession just prior to the EFB lurching violently onto our statute books, and in advance of next years tax-cuts which just might benefit folks who don’t support Labour. Hmmmm ….

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  59. Tane (1,096 comments) says:

    Minimum wage increase has nothing to do with taxpayer cash.

    Maori settlements are done under the Treaty and are supported by both major parties.

    Stadium some of us may have issues with but it’s a valid government activity with wide public support.

    As for the EFB conspiracy… tin. foil. hat.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  60. Pascal (2,015 comments) says:

    No tin foil hat, Tane. Smart politics. Don’t always try to hide what Labour does by throwing glib phrases around. It only makes you look dumb.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote

Leave a Reply

You must be logged in to post a comment.