Campylobacter
Frog Blog talks about the issue of that up to 90% of chickens in New Zealand are infected with campylobacter, noting:
A higher emphasis should be placed on more hygienic methods of transportation to avoid cross-contamination between live birds. Campylobacter lives in the gut of the chicken and transporting them in cages stacked on top of each other will inevitably result in the droppings from birds higher up the stack contaminating those below them.
… About 1 in 1,000 sufferers of campylobacter, a diarrhea-causing infection spread by raw poultry, develop far more serious Guillain-Barre syndrome a month or so later. Their body attacks their nerves, causing paralysis that usually requires intensive care and a ventilator to breath.
Now that is all sounding reasonable, but a press release by Owen McShane (not online) makes the following points:
“However, Ms Kedgley failed to mention that the New Zealand Food Safety Authority web page reports that ‘Irradiation is the only completely effective reported treatment for reduction in levels of Campylobacter. Irradiation of packaged fresh or frozen poultry products at 1.5 to 3.0 kg has been approved by the FDA in the USA and several other countries. Currently, prohibited in New Zealand and unlikely to be approved due to consumer resistance.’
“The reason food irradiation is prohibited in New Zealand is that the Sue Kedgley’s Green Party is steadfastly opposed to it for any food and has mounted a campaign of fear which unfortunately has affected New Zealand attitudes to this safe and effective means of sterilizing food.
“The Green Party would rather stand by their luddite opposition to all things nuclear that prevent this disease.
“I have been hospitalised by campylobacter”, said Mr McShane. “It’s not very nice – being reamed out with barbed wire is the best description that comes to mind.
“So if Ms Kedgley is serious about protecting thousands of New Zealanders, including young children, from this nasty infection, the solution is simple, safe and proven. Irradiate the chickens between farm and shop.
I’d say Owen has a pretty good point.
January 25th, 2008 at 10:11 am
“I’d say Owen has a pretty good point”
For once in his life…
January 25th, 2008 at 10:16 am
any chance of ‘irradiating’ owen..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
January 25th, 2008 at 10:19 am
phil – I would far rather be irradiated than have endured the bout of campylobacter I “acquired” a number of years ago. There are far more pleasant ways to lose weight – in my case nearly a stone in three days – and Owen’s “reamed out with barbed wire” quote is a pretty apt description.
January 25th, 2008 at 10:29 am
um..!..you could also not eat the ‘foul’ product of/from the animal concentration camps..
eh..?
y’know..try to break your (disgusting) addiction to eating the dead flesh of formerly living/sentient beings..?
beings that have undergone sufferings that make your ‘reamed out with barbed wire’ look like the addicts/dillettantes moan that it is..
a ‘radical’ idea..i know..!
but..y’know..!
on whose ‘time’ has come/is here..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
January 25th, 2008 at 10:30 am
Good question, but I think
is really a bit rich. Did I miss the campaign of fear?? It’s all the Greens’ fault we have never used this method since it was invented? I hardly think they’re opposed to all things nuclear, unless they don’t ‘do’ x-rays.
January 25th, 2008 at 10:30 am
make that ‘on’ a ‘one’..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
January 25th, 2008 at 10:30 am
Geez phil, can you give the thread a chance before jacking it? Or is the hypocrisy of the Greens’ position so outrageous this time that you just had to wade right in before too many people pointed it out?
January 25th, 2008 at 10:31 am
Who the hell is Owen McShane anyway? How come he gets to make press releases?
[DPF: Good point - Owen's press release could be considered an election advertisement against the Greens. Has he registered?]
January 25th, 2008 at 10:34 am
Owen makes very good points but this outburst has nothing to do with protecting the public. It is an attack on the hated poultry industry. Whats the bet that “organic” or “free range” poultry would be safe and not a word would have been said.
I’m sorry to here that Owen had a hard time but for most people campylobacter would be an annoying bit of diarrhea. Our society is laready overboard about bugs but you need to grow up being exposed to some bugs to tweek the immune system. We should not make out that we would be healthier living in bubbles, because it is simply not true.
January 25th, 2008 at 10:35 am
Camped on the shitter for three days with a bowl between my knees, a week in bed and two weeks off work. Because campylobacter is a notifiable disease the source of the infection was traced to the woman who prepared the filled roll I’d had for smoko and the explanation I got was that this woman was a carrier with poor personal hygiene.So it was a classic arse to mouth infection, her arse and my mouth!.
Needless to say I’m now a compulsive hand washer, I avoid any takeaways that aren’t piping hot and I’m never ever going back to that lunchbar.
January 25th, 2008 at 10:36 am
Alas it appears philu like Sue K both suffer from Mad Cow Disease without the Cow
January 25th, 2008 at 10:38 am
He’s a well known political and economic commentator with brains, stephen. Something our country could do with more of, rather than listening to far red greens all the time.
January 25th, 2008 at 10:38 am
Aren’t some herbs and/or spices imported into New Zealand, irradiated?
If so, then why isn’t Ms Kedgely kicking up a fuss about them?
Oh wait, she did.
Cry me an irradiated river.
January 25th, 2008 at 10:42 am
Kevin, it was most certainly not “an annoying bit of diarrhea” and if you’d bothered to follow DPFs second link you’d appreciate how “an annoying bit of diarrhea” could be life threatening.
January 25th, 2008 at 10:43 am
This from foodstandards.gov.au:
“Irradiated food does not become radioactive. When the treatment stops, energy does not remain in the food. The gamma rays of radioactive Cobalt 60 do not have enough energy to make food radioactive. Also, the food does not come into contact with the energy source, so it cannot become contaminated by radioactive material.”
Oooh, nuclear bogey man!
Stupid Green idiots!!
January 25th, 2008 at 10:46 am
And radiation is part of everyday life? (to follow up on Steven’s comment)
)
Do the Greens have smoke alarms installed in their offices? (they probably won’t have as big a need for them, now that Nandor is gone I guess?
What to we do at the dentist or hospital if we need an x-ray?
In my line of work, we use a NOO-KA-LEAR densometer every so often. This is so we can tell if compacted earthfill/road is dense enough to comply with design.
Also, interesting tid-bit: did you know the most dangerous job that involves radiation is being a member of crew on a commercial airliner?
January 25th, 2008 at 10:48 am
But she said:
Wouldn’t want to eat chicken poo anyway
January 25th, 2008 at 10:49 am
Dont worry Sue K is a one trick pony and like her fellow Communists will all be gone after election 08.
Just ignore them
January 25th, 2008 at 10:53 am
Exactly gd.
They will be so busy trying to trick the sheeple into keeping them in power for another term, that they won’t be bothered putting out any policy that makes any good sense.
January 25th, 2008 at 10:59 am
No surprise The Greens are giving everyone the shits!
January 25th, 2008 at 11:00 am
How much fun can it be just to use a blog to pat each other on the back?
I would imagine the worry is ingesting nuclear…stuff, see the press release…naturally would like to see her sources, maybe I should get off my ass.
January 25th, 2008 at 11:01 am
According to the article 50-100K people per year suffer from campylobacter with 400-800 hospitalisations. so it would appear it is even less than “an annoying bit of diarrhea”.
People could always just cook their food I suppose.
January 25th, 2008 at 11:02 am
you rightwingers are raving feckin’ idjits..
one-trick-poneys..with onetrack minds..
and discussing not eating the cause of all this barbed-wiring is not thread-hijacking..
you simple person you..
and i’ll add one thing..
i don’t buy a bar of this..”i only eat organic meat’ bullshit/apology/self-justification-for-addiction either..
it is the modern moral equivalent of..
“look how well i look after my slaves’..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
January 25th, 2008 at 11:06 am
I think we need to install some “smoke” alarms in Phule’s rent-a-shack.
January 25th, 2008 at 11:07 am
A couple of things here.
1. For fresh chicken irradiation is now probably the only way the clean it up. Unfortunately the chicken industry has been feed bactercides to the flock for years (as an indirect growth stimulant) and the bugs have now become resistant – so no amount of cleaning will get rid of this bug.
Irradiation isnt all bad. Its very commonly used in food – all the spices you use are all irradiated. Many nedical products are irradiated. Many plastics are irradiated.
As far as I am aware no one has been hurt from industrial irradiation.
Its now compulsory for every new home to have an irradiation device (the smoke alarm).
Its pretty common stuff really.
2. BUT if the chicken is frozen, the bug is killed. Real simple.
January 25th, 2008 at 11:08 am
Vegetarianism/Veganism isn’t exactly that ‘far out’ any more Seamonkey…
January 25th, 2008 at 11:11 am
Phil – I don’t go on about your choice of recreational (or otherwise) substances that you choose to put in your system, so don’t preach to me about eating meat. Be a vegetarian if that floats your boat, but don’t get all precious about it. It is all just your lifestyle choice vs mine. I don’t care if what I eat, moo’ed, baa’ed, cackled, swum, etc – all I want is for it to have been killed humanely.
BTW I eat vegetables all the time, it just so happens that some of them come second hand as it were.
January 25th, 2008 at 11:15 am
Sorry Seamonkey yes i see Philu is pretty indignant
January 25th, 2008 at 11:17 am
I have issues with some aspects of the poultry industry – we only get free range and preferably organic (it tastes better and I think the well being of the chickens is important). And the over use of antibiotics is not good.
But the Green Party’s objcetion to irradiation is not based on science – it just displays their ignorance and perjudice. The only reason they go along with science on global warming is because it suits their brand of Puritanism.
January 25th, 2008 at 11:24 am
Stephen,
If you are referring to my ’smoke’ alarm jibe at Phillip Esq., it’s just par for the course round here. He may have a pertinent point, but his way of expressing it verges on the edge of paranoia.
Honestly, I should have just ignored him.
January 25th, 2008 at 11:24 am
Chicken is shit meat and I never buy it and certainly never eat it in Restaurants. My theory is most food poisoning is from chicken.
January 25th, 2008 at 11:24 am
Does the press release mean nothing? Admittedly PRs arent always the most credible sources i.e. a climate change argument.
January 25th, 2008 at 11:26 am
Oh and did anyone else watch the F-Word last night when they slaughtered Ramsey’s lambs he has been fattening up?
I wonder if the same ’stunning’ process applies here in NZ?
Funny, but not as funny as when his turkeys got zapped the last season!
January 25th, 2008 at 11:33 am
A scientific debate between Sue Kedgley and Owen McShane? This is going to be better than that judo match between Stephen Hawking and Christopher Reeve! Bring it on!
January 25th, 2008 at 11:45 am
“Oh and did anyone else watch the F-Word last night when they slaughtered Ramsey’s lambs he has been fattening up?…
Funny, but not as funny as when his turkeys got zapped the last season!”
The slaughtered pigs were also pretty hard to ’stomach’.
January 25th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
Tim Black at sp!ked has an article suggesting that calling Greens Luddites is unfair on the Luddites. http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/4299/
Sorry, somehow this PC won’t let me link whore properly.
January 25th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
No problem with killing my own food and eating it, however it is more economical for butchers to kill it for me and sometimes even for other people to cook it for me. Chicken is an excellent source of protein.
I’m going to agree with the Greens that chickens should be transported in such a way that they’re not defecating on each other. I think NZ can reasonably afford to look after our animals better. I’d hate to see junk food fed cattle here as we see in the Uk on the basis of costs savings. It’s no wonder Mad cow started over there (I believe).
Not sure why vegetarians feel the need to constantly exert themselves with regards to meat eating diseases. I recently read that some plants have been discovered to have feelings. They grow better either near or away from the same species so this may be an example of compasionate behaviour. As such, we could argue that gardening is inhumane. So please, I respect your opinion to not eat meat, please respect mine to eat it.
January 25th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
Sure, but as usual, WHICH greens?
January 25th, 2008 at 12:17 pm
“I’d hate to see junk food fed cattle here as we see in the Uk”
Agreed.
Some of the kids over there are HUGE! Not fat (although some are), but tall and bulky. Not surprising when they scoff growth-hormone “enhanced” “chicken” Twizzlers.
January 25th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
Labrator, don’t believe all the cherry picked shots they show on MacLibel.
Bascially the reasons why they pick on meat are
1. Killing animals>meat>business. They want to get at business but killing animals is the best way to massage the publics erogenous zones as David Lange would say.
2. They are assisted by the commercial competition between meat and non meat food producers which has seen baised disinformation spread dating back to before the first “food pyramid” came out.
3. Producing meat is less energy efficient that producing vegetables so theoretically there would be more for humans to eat if animal products were eliminated – the fact that there would be more protein malnutrition doesnt seem to worry them.
January 25th, 2008 at 12:32 pm
this is a comment i posted at frogblog..
# phil u Says:
January 25th, 2008 at 8:57 am
yes kevyn..
but how ‘thick’ is your blood..?..currently..?..
..and yr age..?
the (recently stopped cos’ of fears of harming subjects being given calcium supplements) study at auckland university has proven the link between our chronically high rates of ‘thick blood’ deaths..(heart/hypertension etc etc)..
..and our world beating rates of dairy consumption..
that’s cos’ the researchers/scientists have found/discovered/proven that dairy/milk/cheese ‘thickens your blood’..
and fans of irony will (wryly) applaud the fact that this longitudinal study was funded by the dairy industry..
their worst nightmares have come to pass..
they have funded/instigated the research that proves just how unhealthy/bad for you/us their product is..(!)
and kevyn..!..the longterm effects from this blood-thickening don’t kick in untill yr 40’s-50’s..
so..i guess you (and other readers/cheese-eaters) need to do the math..
and maybe..think on..!..
eh..?
“would you like some grated cheese on that..?..”
so..let’s summarise..
meat is bad for you..
dairy is bad for you..
(both age/obesify/kill you..)
maybe ‘it’s time’ to consider the vegan option..?
eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
January 25th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
I know somebody in the business of food processing, and he told me about some of the process for chickens. After they are killed and plucked, they are thrown in to a conveyor of water that carries the carcasses to the next stage in processing. During this time, although the chickens are well and truly dead, the chicken carcasses naturally empty their bowels at this point, causing the water to be filled with chicken sh*t. At the same time, the holes where their feathers were naturally absorb the water – quite a considerable amount. Unsurprisingly, if one chicken is infected, it will immediately cause all of the other carcasses to get infected via this method. The processing companies know about this, but do not want to improve on the situation because of the additional expense (making them less competitive), and because it artificially increases the weight of the meat. This process is banned in places like the EU.
* I should say that this information is a couple of years old, and the processes may have changed since.
January 25th, 2008 at 12:40 pm
Play the ball and not the man Kevin.
January 25th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
“so..let’s summarise..
meat is bad for you..
dairy is bad for you..”
Water is bad for you
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication
Veganism is bad for you
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegan#Precautions
It’s a fact that the human body evolved to eat meat, that’s why we have canines. Please don’t tell me that millions of years of evolution was wrong, my cat and dog will hate you for it.
Thanks for the tip kevin.
January 25th, 2008 at 12:47 pm
..”..more protein malnutrition..”
what absolute unmitigated bullshit..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
January 25th, 2008 at 12:49 pm
“..please respect my right to eat it ((be a slaveowner)..”
another bullshit argument..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
January 25th, 2008 at 12:49 pm
“..that’s why we have canines..”
yet more unmitigated bullshit..!
phil(whoar.co.nz
January 25th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
As is so often the case the greens have no real interest in protecting people all they want is their head in the sand ideology that says don’t spray, don’t irradiate, dont eat meat, etc etc but cannabis is OK!!!
January 25th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Our herbs and spices should be irradiated but they are not – unless they have been at source. That is why you often find that weevil mesh in your cumin.
Again, the Greens have been hotly opposed to irradiation of herbs and spices in NZ.
This means that container loads of food imports are sterilized with methyl bromide rather than having the contents irradiated and methyl bromide actually killed a worker on a wharf in NZ last year. The Greens protested against its use but failed again to acknowledge that there protests against the alternative is the reason we still use it.
What’s more methyl bromide is – wait for it – a greenhouse gas!
The US states have not used irradiation to protect mail from anthrax etc as much as you might think post 9/11. I got involved in this debate at quite a high level. The reason is objections from the postal union who were persuaded by Greens that they would be at risk from radiation. However, as soon as the first white powder mail appeared in Washington DC irradiation machines were rapidly brought into the Pentago and the Capitol etc to protect all government employers and the union suddenly became appreciative of where the real risks lay. It works spendidly with letters but big boxes slow the process down a bit.
January 25th, 2008 at 1:03 pm
I did a bit of work research on this when accused of selling a dodgy pie.
One of the problems on this is that the methods used to raise and process chickens in NZ is no different than used in other countries yet we have a much higher CB rate than other countries (perhaps because it is reportable). Conversely we have a much lower rates for other food illnesses like salmonella. This tells me there are a bunch of other factors at play, most probably food hygiene/cooking.
The big problem with CB is identifying wher it comes from due to the long incubation time and seemingly random impact. Ten people can eat the same food from the same location and only one get sick. You usually don’t get clusters like you do with other food poisonings (ie everyone at a wedding coming down with botulism from the shrimp cocktail) and incubation is up to a week, so it is very hard to track because most of us don;t have good memories of exactly what, where and when we ate. Often you get asked, ‘have you eaten chicken in the last week?’ and a yes means that gets blamed as the vector. But CB is also common from BBQs and just poor hygiene.
In short it is very simplistic to blame chicken rearing methods and perhaps there are political motivations behind it.
PS I don;t think freezing completely kills the bacteria but gets rid of much of it.
January 25th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
Cooking chicken properly will prevent infection – no? So, if you are stupid enough not to cook your food properly, then you have the ability to either buy frozen chicken, or else freeze the fresh chicken that you buy.
There is no real issue that needs remedying with processes or process change if people use commonsense – another case of regulating to combat stupidity I suppose.
PS – I don’t eat chicken from places I don’t trust (or seafood for that matter) – another exercise in common sense really…
January 25th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
I suppose I should explain that the media release was from the Centre for Resource Management Studies of which I am Director.
Don Brash is the Chairman and the directors are Sir Roger Douglas, Noel Lane, Alan Gibbs, and Dick Quax.
Go to:
http://www.rmastudies.org.nz/index.htm
[DPF: Hollow men, hollow men, hollow men, waa waa hollow men waa hollow men - sorry just getting in early on behalf of the usual ones]
January 25th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
Owen just made The Standard trolls pee their pants.
January 25th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
Good stuff with the disclosure, though its probably on the website.
I STILL don’t see anyone rebutting Kedgley’s (admittedly very old) press release.
January 25th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
btw..i have vegan dogs..
and just the other day..i was able to mess with a vets’ head..
by presenting to him a ten year old bitch..
who has had a litter of puppies..
and who people often ask of me..”..how old is your puppy..?”
first (blurted) line from the vet..
“how do you get her coat so shiny..?..”
next (blurted) looking -for-any-other-reason question..
“..how often do you bathe her..?”
answer:..”i have never bathed her..i don’t need to..she dosen’t smell of dead meat..”
phil(whoar.co.nz)
January 25th, 2008 at 1:39 pm
If the Greens had been around/organised earlier I expect we would see the following:
No medical x-rays
No deliberate cross-pollination in plants, to improve stocks and breed out unwanted characteristics
No industrial revolution
No power generation (even a primitive water wheel used to mill bread “disrupts” the local life in the area)
No coffee (who came up with the idea of roasting these beans, then crushing them and steeping them in water anyway?)
No world exploration.
And so on.
January 25th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
Owen, that is an impressive lineup but I was somewhat disappointed to read that Don Brash published a comment that the only thing causing high house prices was over-regulation causing a lack of supply of land. This is a gross oversimplification if not a outright falsehood and I would have thught he should know better. One of the major things causing high house prices is the favourable investment incentives compared to other businesses.
Not BS philu – you diet fadists are going to cause a lot of health problems unless you stop the hype for purely political purposes. But then again its hard to find a leftie who doesn’t consider the ends justify the means.
January 25th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
And lefties would substitute ‘rightie’ for ‘leftie’.
Would be good if Philu could back up the ‘protein’ bit, as it’s pretty important!
January 25th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
um..!..10 years vegan..
15 before that vegetarian..
and in (rude) good health..
i mean..’google..!..’..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
January 25th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
i managed to contract it 2 years ago.. not my fault i like my chicken rare!
anyway.. what a horrible 12 days!! slept 20 hours a day.. not cool!
January 25th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
“and in (rude) good health..”
Yeah, apart those all important ‘brain’ functions…eh….’Phil’….
Seamonkey Madness (whore.co.nz)
January 25th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
going here should answer any ‘protein’ questions you may have..
http://www.veganoutreach.org/
phil(whoar.co.nz)
January 25th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
ma (hons)..monkey..
12,000 news stories collated/written..
you..?
any more evidence of your brain function..monkey..?
(ahem..!..aside from what we chuckle at here..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz
January 25th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
@stephen: philu did – all counter arguments are “unmitigated bullshit” unless they are his empirical evidence.
With regards to the actual thread (which isn’t philu’s veganism or his lack of respect of other people’s rights), I still think the greens have a point in that the standard of care of the chickens is sub-standard and is contributing to disease. The fact that irradiating them can remove the camylobacter virus, whilst an excellent agrument to introduce it, should not excuse the need for high standards of animal welfare.
January 25th, 2008 at 2:13 pm
Don did not say that Smart Growth type land constraints (MULs in particular) are the only cause of unaffordable housing. But he did say that they are the prime cause and that while they are there you cannot address the problem.
Taxes and interest rates have little explanatory power. These are essentially the same in all the US states but affordability varies hugely. The Demographia site shows a table which lays out the fact that ALL the severely unaffordable markets have Smart Growth policies. NONE of the affordable markets do.
And there is no correlation between affordability and demand (ie growth rates) other than if there is falling demand then prices fall because there is no supply issue. Cheap money has little explanatory power. Interest rates are the same across all US states. We have expensive money and yet our main markets are severely unaffordable.
The problem is supply, supply and compliance costs in that they too impact on supply. How many families do you know who can pay up $50,000 in compliance costs and levies BEFORE they can get a 224(c)? Which means they cannot pay them out of sales. Every week I see people give up on subdivisions because they cannot meet the up front costs.
January 25th, 2008 at 2:14 pm
I wonder what the infection rate is in free-range hens, which get roam around in each other’s shit at will?
January 25th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
Barry makes a good point – research overseas has shown that freezing chicken and then only having sales of frozen chicken rather than fresh chicken has worked for many countries overseas.
Problem is the poultry industry is totally opposed as if someone wants to stop in at the supermarket on the way home for some fresh meat to cook quickly for dinner then chicken will cease to be an option.
January 25th, 2008 at 2:16 pm
PhilU
- But you smoke dont you?
January 25th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
Owen, out of interest (and off-topic), why do you discount densification as a means of boosting supply without the added costs to infrastructure created by urban sprawl? I suspect it is because there is little market demand for denser housing stock, but I wonder if there are other factors that impact on your decision to ignore that possible solution?
January 25th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
The Green opposition to irradiation is not based on science – but its also irrelevant. If New Zealand industry were pushing for irradiation then the Labour government would simply ignore the Greens and do whatever they wanted. That’s how it works with all their other environment policy.
Why aren’t industry pushing for the miracles of irradiation to be made available to them? Basically because its a very capital intensive thing to set up – at least a million dollars and probably closer to two for your average farm.
Irradiation has also enjoyed very slow uptake in Europe and the US, simply because people are afraid of radiation and don’t understand the science behind the process. So essentially New Zealand businesses would be spending large amounts of money to make their products less marketable to their customers. THAT is the reason our chicken barns aren’t surrounded by cobalt-60 chambers, not the evil luddite greens.
[DPF: But arguably the reason so many are afraid of radiation is because of the evil luddite greens!]
January 25th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
Ah. Sam, I wouldn’t imagine they’d WANT to do that. And its a little different to touch it with feet than to be bathing in a poo shower.
January 25th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Phil. You call eating meat the equivalent of slavery, yet you have pets, is that not just another form of slavery? Should your precious dog (dogs?) be roaming wild and free the way ‘nature’ intended them to?
I make no apology for liking meat, I enjoy eating it and will continue to do so. However I do think that the rate of CB infection in NZ is related to the lack of care taken by the poultry industry in trying to prevent it at the source. Equally, I hope someone does set up an irradiation plant and treats fresh chicken products as I, for one, would buy that over un-treateed chicken. The big-ol’ nuclear bogeymen doesn’t frighten me – the biggest source of radiation happens to be the very planet we all live on, followed closely by the star that provide the energy that drives the process of life. FFS you’ll die of something some day, the process of life itself is carcenogenic.
January 25th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
Ah Phil – a great advertisement for vegan/vegetarianism
January 25th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
Re Densification.
Back in the sixties while in the Auckland City Council I did a study of density and residential land use. I concluded that different densities should be enabled to improve choice which was limited then. However, increasing densities above medium density (two stories) delivers no public good benefits and certainly has no measurable impact on urban area – unless you abandon environmental standards.
So we wrote codes which enabled town housing (I invented the word) and infill housing etc and medium densification took off and was high quality. This is why Auckland is about 2.5 time as dense as most new world cities of equivalent size etc. We have already done our efficient densification.
Pushing up further simply increases costs, (especially with high earthquake and wind loads), and because of loss of net area to public spaces such as lifts etc, overloads underground services, and increases congestion and pollution.
All these disadvantages mean that to force it you have to constrain normal development with MULs etc. The costs then skyrocket as we have seen. All the severely unaffordable markets in the Demographia survey promote densification. If you want severely unaffordable housing, a wealthy legal profession, long commuting times, congestion and pollution, and lack of choice then go for it.
January 25th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
try focussing on/rebutting the argument/evidence..numbnuts..!
too hard..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
January 25th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Thanks for that explanation Owen.
January 25th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
It is when arguing with a myopic person such as yourself.
January 25th, 2008 at 3:11 pm
What argument? I eat meat and have never had a sick day in my life, you don’t and have trouble with word wrapping, inter alia.
I loved the dog story…I bet they sit there yapping to each other saying “I wonder what meat tastes like…let’s just give him a wee nip…he can’t hose us all down…”
January 25th, 2008 at 3:18 pm
<i>But arguably the reason so many are afraid of radiation is because of the evil luddite greens!</i>
And maybe people are afraid of serial killers because of the Sensible Sentencing Trust. Come on.
[DPF: Serial killers have no redeeming characteristics as you know. Radiation and nuclear energy have both positives and negatives and the hysteria generated by the greens (small g) have made it very hard to have a rational debate - they did the same with GE - demanding a Royal Commission and then attacking it when it chose science over fearmongering]
January 25th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
“Not sure why vegetarians feel the need to constantly exert themselves with regards to meat eating diseases. I recently read that some plants have been discovered to have feelings. They grow better either near or away from the same species so this may be an example of compasionate behaviour. As such, we could argue that gardening is inhumane. So please, I respect your opinion to not eat meat, please respect mine to eat it.”
What a load of crap. Plants have neither a brain nor a central nervous system, therefore they are not able to feel or suffer.
“We” could argue that gardening is inhumane, but “we” should get locked up for doing so.
January 25th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
gee phil, you must love me. i eat 6 meals a day
a tonne of protein.. 3-4 chicken breasts a day heh
January 25th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
There is no doubt that the public has an irrational fear of radiation because of the good job the luddites did in linking the issue to Hiroshima. I hope they put their money where their mouth is and don’t go out in the sun.
Re Densification. A lot has changed since the 60s Owen. Better building materials, more people wanting to live cnetrally, oil comparatively more expensive etc. I hate the fact that people have to spend $50K doing a subdivision only a little bit less that the fact that my rates have to rise to pay for roads out to their places, for my drainage to be upgraded when it is overloaded and when their house slips into the sea nad Fly by night subdivisions can’t pay because they are in liquidation.
Not to mention, how much cash are we loosing from all that land not being in productive industry? is that factored into your calculations?
The main problem hold genuine solutions back in auckland is the building industry’s fixation with the house on 1/8 acre and the lifestylers beliving that they have the right to subdivide productive farmland because they were too thick to save for their retirement.
January 25th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
“Hiroshima”?? Again, WHAT scare campaign?!
January 25th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
Hey phil, you hi-jacked the thread about 80 posts ago from one about whether the most popular form of meat protein in our diets was adequately safe to one about whether it was morally acceptable. So, hmm, why don’t you just fuck off?
January 25th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
Irradiated food does not cause cancer.
January 25th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
“And maybe people are afraid of serial killers because of the Sensible Sentencing Trust. Come on.”
That’s not what he meant and you know it. He’s referring to the fascist Green’s penchant for scaremongering….
January 25th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
“And maybe people are afraid of serial killers because of the Sensible Sentencing Trust.”
Serial killers kill people. Irradiating food doesnt.
January 25th, 2008 at 4:25 pm
Serial killers kill people. Irradiating food doesnt.
Look – it’s trying to think!
January 25th, 2008 at 5:47 pm
What is all this shit about irradiation?
You cut your finger and put on a sterile dressing.
How was this dressing sterilised?
OMG you have just put on an irradiated material that is in contact with your blood. The radiation is now in your body and eating your brain!!
FOR FUCKS SAKE get real.
Stupid people.
January 25th, 2008 at 6:51 pm
hey..!..chicken breast guy..!
how old are you..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
January 26th, 2008 at 2:08 pm
Kevin
I have stayed closely in touch with the housing industry since the 60s and indeed am invited to speak at International speakers on the subject every year.
First, the sixties was just about the peak of migration into our cities. Since the mid eighties the markets have been dominated by outmigration, first of pre-retirees and recently of divorced women and their children. True the is inmigration to the central city areas by singles and childless couples – I enabled that with my work in Freeman’s Bay and went to live there. Suburban developers pay for their own roads and peripheral arterials are the most effective way to reduce congestion provided you allow business to relocate to where it wants. Peripheral commuters have the shortest commute times – not the longest.
Excessive densification is the certain way to overload your drains. In my park developments the sewage is an asset that feeds and irrigates the subtropical fruits etc. There is no shortage of farm land. However huge amounts of peri-urban land are waste by planners and their love affair with 10, 20 and 40 acre lots when most purchasers are happy with an acre. That is where densification would help. We are not all “unproductive”. We led the way in the wine industry and I was the first in our area to plant olives and truffles. Landowners know best how to use their land efficiently. Planners are taught nothing about the rural economy. Most lifestylers don’t want these massive lots – its the planners who are too thick to let them have want they want. It is not the building industry which has a fixation on 1/8 th acre lots. They are forced by planners.
Peoples preferences are varied and vary over time. I used to live in a high rise apartment close to the nightclubs of Queen Street. Now I live on a 5 acre lot in the country, growing all manner of crops and enjoying my chooks and ducks.
I have no desire to live near nightclubs now and broadband means I do not need to be near a library or my clients. I have just received an invite to speak at a conference in New York in March. I am hardly an unproductive country hick.
January 26th, 2008 at 8:45 pm
“Also, interesting tid-bit: did you know the most dangerous job that involves radiation is being a member of crew on a commercial airliner?”
Yeah, but aren’t the Greens oppsoed to airlines as well?
January 27th, 2008 at 9:44 am
some good points there Owen, but it looks like we must agree to differ. I see John Key has now come out saying that it is the investment incentives for housing over other businesses that needs to be taken another look at. I agree with him but it would be interesting to see where his advice is coming from.
I meant no offense that you were unproductive or uninformed. Will catch up with you off line. Cheers.