Here are three I found.

* Matthew 5:28- Looking lustily at a woman means you are commiting adultery in your heart.

* 1 Corinthians 6:19,20- Your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, and so you should glorify God with it.

* 1 Thessalonians 4:4,5- You should learn to control your body in a holy and honourable way, not in passionate lust like the heathens.

If you can’t come up with an argument that something is a sin from scripture, you have two choices. The first is that you let a bunch of “Godly men”, to whom knowledge has presumably been “divinely revealed” make the decision for you and you slavishly follow whatever they come up with. This is essentially the Catholic approach, and the approach of more fundamentalist Protestants. The second is to make up your own mind by using some sort of logical argument. But since this is what you have criticised me for doing, this would be hypocritical of you.

As for objective truth, don’t get me started on that – I don’t want to pick a fight with the atheist objectivists as well!

Thanks for your reasoned comments, as always.

I’m not surprised that people don’t agree with me; happens all the time. I’m just saying that if someone’s a Christian, they should recognise that those acts are sinful.

Agnostics/atheists can make their own decision on what’s right or wrong. But — and I’m generalising here — they avoid using words like “sin” because that’s a judging word. No one’s allowed to judge their actions, but they can judge others as “religious zealots”, “hypocrites” and “repressed Christians”.

“Using one’s own body for pleasure is certainly sinful” Fuck off. Ones body is a temple of pleasure to be entertained with whenever one chooses too.

Masterbation is good, drug taking is good, alcohol is good, sex is good, tattoos are good, haircuts are good…

“what about killing someone who’s got a terminal illness”, are they edible at the end of the process – I’m told we taste like chicken and one german gentleman took it to it’s somewhat strange conclusion.

What bizarre twisted theological reasons can you come up with to make a sin out of using one’s own body for pleasure and enjoyment? Certainly none from the Bible.

Wow, which Bible are you reading? Sounds like it would be pretty popular is Christians got hold of it.

Using one’s own body for pleasure is certainly sinful; sex is not (if properly practised inside marriage). It’s fine if you don’t agree with that, but don’t try suggesting that Christianity and/or Scripture say masturbation/fornication/lust etc are OK.

Don’t just state something’s a sin because it makes you feel better about yourself.

Talking about sin certainly doesn’t make me feel any better about myself. It makes me uncomfortable, because any deliberation about sin includes a recognition that I am a sinful person.

Re: moral relativism. Killing is wrong, is it not? That’s an objective truth. But what about killing someone who’s got a terminal illness? Is that OK?

Is it now? How do you work that one out? What bizarre twisted theological reasons can you come up with to make a sin out of using one’s own body for pleasure and enjoyment? Certainly none from the Bible. I believe there’s a washing ritual in there, but the Apostles were pretty clear that Gentiles didn’t have to worry about it. Come on, make me an argument here. Don’t just state something’s a sin because it makes you feel better about yourself.

“And congrats on having a direct line to the Holy Spirit. I wish I was that lucky.”

I didn’t say I had a direct line – that would be very helpful. But by faith I hope He can help increase my knowledge of God.

“That’s called moral relativism, Blair”

It’s called nothing of the sort. If you don’t make decisions for yourself then who is making decisions for you? You may as well get your mother to dress you every day if that’s your attitude to your own free will.

Sorry. I thought titillation was your word. My mistake. And I’m always up for a good religious debate

BlairM,

WTF?! What would be a “perverse reason” for watching a tv show?! You are compounding silliness with even more silliness!

Watching a TV show or movie for the express reason of getting your rocks off is sinful, Blair. Oh, hang on, you have your own sins in your religion. Can you list them for us?

And congrats on having a direct line to the Holy Spirit. I wish I was that lucky.

Being part of organised religion doesn’t mean someone has to “blindly follow someone elses opinions without thinking for yourself”.

You can listen to others of course, but the assesment as to whether they are correct must be made by you.

That’s called moral relativism, Blair, and it fits in perfectly with everything you’ve said earlier on this thread.

Interesting Lecture given by the esteemed Lord Russell in 1927

Why I Am Not A Christian
by Bertrand Russell

Just a thought.

I agree with the points you make.

I use logic, my own brain, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit to seek God and understand Him. I’m really not sure how else anyone would do it. The alternative is to just blindly follow someone elses opinions without thinking for yourself. That strikes me as very dangerous. You can listen to others of course, but the assesment as to whether they are correct must be made by you.

I think 1 billion followers of Islam and a horde of atheists are fools too. Being agreed with doesn’t make you right.

I didn’t use the word titillate, ropata did. I’m not sure what context he meant it in I have to assume arousal as he referred to it in regards to “lots of men”. ASA? Lol, that would probably break 150 comments!

I’m talking about the ethos that the Catholic church has carried on (apparently with an unbroken history back to Christ).

Care to elaborate?

That church has alot of skeletons in it’s closet

Yep, every church does. Regardless of how a church or institution or organisation is founded, humans manage to stuff it up and that creates skeletons in closets.

Re: Californication, are you using titillated in terms of arousal?

Titillation was a word you used, so I can’t say what you meant by it. I took it to mean that it was no more risque or scandalous or explicit than some women’s product commercials. You’re right to say that a lot of ads and music videos are quite outrageous, but don’t get me started on the Advertising Standards Authority as well. The BSA enough for now

@Scribe: No, not really. It’s my personal opinion and I should clarify it does not apply to someone who is a Catholic. I’m talking about the ethos that the Catholic church has carried on (apparently with an unbroken history back to Christ). That church has alot of skeletons in it’s closet but I don’t disrespect the faith of individuals.

Re: Californication, are you using titillated in terms of arousal? I certainly wasn’t aroused by Californication. I’m not sure what other context you would want to use the word but I can not believe for a second that someone would watch Californication (over the multitudes of other sources) for sexual titillation. It is my opinion that there are some pretty raunchy ads and music videos to boot played at a time of day where children with less formed minds are less able to deal with. Californication was played at an appropriate time for its content and the BSA were right to allow it to be aired.

Labrator,

It’s my personal preference to not trust anything from Catholics. That’s not intending to be offensive, just from personal experience.

Care to share any experiences/stories as to why the largest Christian denomination in the world and the only Church with unbroken history back to Christ isn’t trustworthy?

Because it was no more titillating then your average womans product commercial.

I watched it, and your comment is either deliberately misleading because it was directed to someone who didn’t watch or you watch different TV channels to me with some pretty raunchy commercials.

BlairM,

Adultery is a sin. Watching a fictional production on adultery is not.

That would depend on whether or not you were watching it for perverse reasons.

No, I am not “under the authority” of flawed and sinful human beings, and any Christian who does so is a fool – and inviting themselves to be led into stupid and unreasonable theology as you yourself have displayed.

Scott has already responded to this in part, but I’ll just ask this: What/who directs your moral compass? And that’s a lot of people you’re calling a fool. Which is your right, obviously.

BlairM,
I wasn’t ‘embellishing’ the biblical definition of sin, I was trying to summarize it. But I don’t want to go down the path of competing bible quotes and splitting hairs. I dispute your notion that voyeurism is morally neutral. I agree that adulterers are responsible for their behaviour, but the cultural climate is also a significant factor in the choices people make.

That’s just silly – and even if true it doesn’t make it wrong.

Your embellishments of the Biblical definition of sin would be disturbing if they weren’t so commonplace. One of the best things the Apostle Paul ever said (and the most twisted by preachers) is ““I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for you brethren, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying ‘Do not go beyond what is written’. Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.”

Adultery is a sin. Watching a fictional production on adultery is not. How about we stop making excuses for adulterers by blaming tv instead of them huh?

the audience will be largely composed of men seeking titillation

So you didn’t watch it then? Because it was no more titillating then your average womans product commercial. In fact if anything, it dashes young mens dreams of sleeping with any woman they like, drinking endlessly and hoping they’ll be happy! It’s a morality tale prime for contemporary society. If you choose to judge it on hearsay, then you need to be more careful. Atleast the people at the BSA watched it and made an informed opinion.

Decade after decade we hear about the breakdown of society but somehow it just keeps on surviving. Is it that society has the capacity to correct itself and deal with issues and learn? I think it was the catholics that kept the bible in Latin to prevent the peasants from educating themselves on the Lord’s word. We survived that. Like alot of people have been advocating, society will choose whether programs like Californication survive. Education is responsible for our depravities and this comes from parents and community. Blaming society is blaming yourself. My major concern at the moment is how the world is going to cope with the demands being placed on it by third world countries wanting to become first world countries. Without massive technological advancements the world can’t even handle China achieving first world status. Read Collapse by Jared Diamond for examples.

Back to the point though: I personally don’t think Californication promotes vice. In fact I thought it had a really pro-family message. All that Duchovnys character wanted was his family back after realising that sleeping with anyone he wanted, drinking alot and being abusive wasn’t making him happy. I don’t see how that can be interpreted as promoting vice. Without a christian overtone it actually recommended alot of things that christians encourage. I think American Idol is more responsible for advocating some of the seven deadly sins (pride/envy) than Californication is of promoting vice.