Poneke on ANZAC Day
April 25th, 2008 at 10:30 am by David FarrarPoneke reminds us how lucky those of our generation are:
I am from only the first generation in human history whose young men – teenage boys — were not forced by their country’s leaders to fight and kill the young men and teenage boys of other countries and be killed by them. My parents’ generation was the last such generation so far, and, I fervently hope, the last ever.
As a parent, scarcely a day goes by that I do not give thanks to having grown up in relative peace and that there is a good chance my children will not be forced to fight and maybe die in battle against someone else’s children. …
It’s Anzac Day today, and like she started doing several years ago, my daughter, 15, is attending two services. She is one of a growing number of her generation who have taken a great interest in the sacrifices made in battle by her forebears and sets out to honour them by attending Anzac Day events. I asked her this morning why, and her answer was simplicity itself.
“To pay respect for the people who died in wars,” she said. “The First World War could have been avoided but if people hadn’t stood up to Hitler he would have taken over Europe, and much of the world, so we were fighting for peace, odd as that sounds.” …
“I don’t like it when people protest at the cenotaph. They shouldn’t be protesting at the soldiers. They were only doing what they had to. They should be protesting at the governments that started the wars.”
We shall never forget, certainly not now that our children are ensuring that their great-grandparents and great-great-grandparents who were forced to fight and die in terrible, often futile battles long ago, will not be forgotten.
Poneke is such a good blogger, he should consider writing for a living 
April 25th, 2008 at 11:03 am
If he keeps quoting his “daughter”, people will begin to believe she doesn’t exist.
Vote:April 25th, 2008 at 11:30 am
David of course has met my daughter, and knows she exists.
Thank you for your kind comments, David. My children are actually the motivation for much of my writing, and my daughter is a much better writer than me.
Vote:April 25th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
Of course, some were forced to go, but few were forced in the sense that we would understand it now, most went freely enough.
And as for WW1 being avoidable, maybe it was, counterfactual history is impossible to refute. But WW1 was a war started by Germany with the very willing participation of Austria-Hungary, or at least the military leaders of A-H. Great Britain could have stayed out of WW1 but it seems, at least to me, that in doing so they would have seen France and Russia beaten in a fairly short time, and would then have faced a Europe united against them lead by a militaristic germany intent on gaining further conquests. GB could have given up gracefully and accepted German hegemony, in which case we would now be living in a german dominated world. Better or worse, who could really be sure, but I doubt that most people would agree better given the nature of Imperial Germany of the time.
Still, a good piece Poneke, far, far, superior to the piece of unmitigated partisan crap put forth by Trotter in the Dom today. Poisonous stuff, filled with every lefty canard going from a man who seems to think he knows everything but only displays a vacuous knowledge of a series of myths he wants to believe to be true.
Vote:April 25th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
“…and my daughter is a much better writer than me.”
Much better writer than ‘I’ Poneke, than I.
Vote:April 25th, 2008 at 12:58 pm
You have proved my point.
Vote:April 25th, 2008 at 1:04 pm
Great piece Poneke. Thanks for that.
Vote:As an aside, I was at the ANZAC Memorial Service at Te Atatu this morning where poor old Tau Henare was introduced by the RSA President to those assembled as the local New Zealand First MP. The laughter was prolonged and genuine.
G
April 25th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
This is at Gallipoli, at Lone Pine from memory,
The words are Mustafa Kemal Atatürk’s :
“Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives… You are now lying in the soil of a friendly country.
Vote:Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side now here in this country of ours… you, the mothers, who sent their sons from faraway countries wipe away your tears; your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace.
After having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well.”
April 25th, 2008 at 2:04 pm
“Go, kill without mercy . . . who today remembers the annihilation of the Armenians.”
Hitler
Vote:April 25th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
Indeed Al.
Suppose it proves war is anything but futile….having dealt to that National Socialist in good style.
Vote:April 25th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
Ed Snack, “…far, far, superior to the piece of unmitigated partisan crap put forth by Trotter in the Dom today.”
With all due respect to Poneke, I disagree (worthy though Poneke’s sentiments are). I think that it is not rendering any service to those who fought and sacrificed so much to avoid thinking about how they came to be there and what it has meant over time. And certainly not to attempt to dismiss attempts to raise such issues in the way that Snack does.
In a post on my own blog, I qualify Chris’s main point about the Massey government’s motivation for sending so many NZers to war (half as many again as the Australians and Canadians, proportionately), but recognise the validity of what he says. As Massey’s Defence Minister put it, “I do not want New Zealand to be in the position of Australia and Canada. We have a higher aim, a higher purpose, and I hope at the end of the war we shall reap a higher reward.” Ed Snack, it is you who is displaying ignorance.
I finish my blog by noting about the poll that showed that 38% polled thought ANZAC Day more appropriate as our national day, “Although support for Anzac Day as our “most appropriate national day” was highest amongst 15 to 29 year-olds, it seems a very backward-looking idea to me. It does not obviously resonate with the New Zealand of our new immigrants, that is increasingly part of the Asia Pacific region and that now confronts the fast-changing challenges of the globalised world. Waitangi Day might yet fill that role, but ANZAC Day is, when all is said and done, a day of remembrance.”
Since DPF doesn’t seem to have listed my modest blog yet, anyone interested in reading more will find it at http://www.jafapete.wordpress.com
Vote:April 25th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
I think if you put Massey’s words and motives in context you might understand better Jafapete. Your ignorance is the wilful sort, sadly. Trotter however, uses every excuse to push his own leftist barrow and his understanding of history is unfortunately twisted by that. The man is a walking advertisement for all the spi9n, distortions, and flat out lies so important in the culture of what the left in NZ has largely, although not entirely, become.
Vote:April 25th, 2008 at 6:04 pm
Ed, In my own blog I do put the actions of Massey and his government in context in order to qualify Chris Trotter’s account, and cite Belich’s “Paradise Reforged”. (Unless you think Belich is a left-wing propagandist — and I am sure some of the true believers hereabouts do — you would find his account useful.) Nevertheless, even with the qualifications, Massey & co must be considered neglectful of their troops’ interests at the very least in their pursuit of imperialist brownie points.
Even Holyoake’s government sought to limit the number of NZers fighting in Vietnam to the barest minimum as they appeased the US government.
For the very instructive and interesting story of one of the unsung heroes of Gallipoli, see:
Vote:http://www.progressive.org.nz/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=874
April 25th, 2008 at 7:51 pm
Jafapete – I must say that I have never bothered reading Belich’s ‘Paradise Reforged’. I had to put up with his ‘The New Zealand Wars and the Victorian Interpretation of Racial Conflict’ for twenty-plus years, as both a teacher of the NZ Wars and a PhD student, and found it to be unadulterated crap. I used to use as a straw man, and then pull it to bits during campaign studies and battlefiled tours.
It always amused me to see so many university students arriving on campus all set to worship Hemi, and then turning on his book like a pack of wolves once they had had all the mistakes were pointed out to them. It was quite comical.
Vote:April 25th, 2008 at 8:30 pm
Duxton,
Do you mean the story of how the Maori won all the battles but lost the war? It is true that Belich has a tendency to push things a little to get everything into his frame, but he’s hardly the first historian to do that and that doesn’t make him into a left-wing propagandist. He does provide useful insights and, if you take a dialectical view, has played a valuable role in New Zealand historiography. Sounds like his account of the New Zealand Wars was educational in unintented ways.
[Wow, I can't believe I just used "dialectical" on kiwiblog. That's got to be a first, surely?]
Vote:April 25th, 2008 at 8:31 pm
I haven’t read Trotter’s piece, but I must say that Garth George’s column yesterday was a great ANZAC tribute. Almost made me teary. Jim Hopkins had a good column today as well, in which he said sometimes war is a necessary evil and also likened Mike Williams’ “damn good idea” line to Goebbels’ propaganda.
Vote:April 25th, 2008 at 9:45 pm
“anyone interested in reading more will find it at”
Nobody is. The blogosphere is totally overloaded with such fifth rate tired old commie crap… crawl back into your cave.
…and as for Anzac day, the totalitarian and tyrannical objectives of socialism as pursued by the NZ Labour party are an insult to the memory of every soldier who died fighting against those two evils. When such as you wax on about “sacrifice” and “globalised world” and “imperialist brownie points” in your ponderous and pretentious manner, you just make me want to vomit. The left in NZ and elsewhere have more often betrayed the free world forces than they have honoured them. They betrayed them in both World War I and II , they betrayed them in Vietnam and today they betray them in Iraq and elsewhere. I know you for what you are, and I don’t buy any of your sanctimonious shit about “remembrance ” or your facile academic posturing for one fucken millisecond. You are treasonists and fifth columnists, plain and simple.
Vote:April 25th, 2008 at 9:58 pm
You know sometimes when I read Ratbleaters stuff I realise that the mentality that would line people up against the wall and shoot them is alive and well.
Of course realising he is just a friendless, sad little man means it is not serious, but even so that much hate is worrying to see.
Vote:April 25th, 2008 at 10:03 pm
“even so that much hate is worryng to read”
Sonic displays the hard left’s customary shock horror and awe of criticism. Its something they still can’t get used to. Wisen up moron, those days when you could get away with your deceit ridden bullshit virtually unchallenged are long gone.
Vote:April 25th, 2008 at 10:10 pm
Yes Ratbleater we feel the hate. Tell us something we don’t know.
You realy need to grow up bro.
Vote:April 25th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
“You realy need to grow up bro.”
No you do. Your plaintive and infantile wailing and whining every time you and your political ideology is criticised or challenged is so tiresome. All you’re capable of doing is posting piffling snide off hand comments trying to put down anyone who isn’t on your broken down crumbling side of the political fence. Spare readers the pathetic snivelling. Argue your case or fuck off.
Vote:April 25th, 2008 at 10:32 pm
Whatever Ratbleater, seriously you need help.
Vote:April 25th, 2008 at 10:40 pm
The last few years has seen ANZAC day captured by a semi-pagan form of nationalistic worship of an idealised abstract (“fallen heroes”) that Leni Riefenstahl would have instantly recognised and applauded.
Enough said.
[DPF: Indeed enough said. Anyone who compares ANZAC Day to Nazi propaganda is vile. To do it on ANZAC Day itself is even worse. And that's 20 demerits for the vileness and offensiveness]
Vote:April 26th, 2008 at 12:24 am
Nice blog entry from Poneke, although I think his daughter is a little confused between WW1 and WW2. Hitler being the latter, Kaiser Bill being the former.
Although we like to call the Germans the baddies in WW1 for firing the first shots as it were, it is important to understand the nature of “Powder-keg Europe” at the time. Germany’s only hope of successfully fighting off a two front war against allies Russia and France was to strike first and knock out Paris, and force a French ceasefire. Then turn and face Russia (who would take a much longer time to mobilise their antiquated but potentially monstrous army). This strategy was smart, but required them to act first and move swiftly if it was to be successful. In order to do so required they swing through the low countries due to the heavy French fortifications along the German-French border. From what I recall, Britain had signed a pact recognising Belgium’s right to exist (post Napoleon), and so came to Belgium’s aid.
When Russia made moves on the border of AH in support to Serbia following the assassination of the Archduke by a Serbian anarchist, the Germans got nervous and brought their plan into action. The rest, as they say, is history.
Vote:April 26th, 2008 at 12:47 am
Ah.. forget what I said, I reread her comment and see what she meant
Vote:April 26th, 2008 at 7:30 am
jafapete: “Do you mean the story of how the Maori won all the battles but lost the war? ”
Well, that, plus virtually everything else he says. I might also note that many of his references have since been found to be incorrect or non-existent.
I don’t want to thread-jack, but have reviewed the book for Amazon.com. The link is as follows:
http://www.amazon.com/review/R1POQM41S0PLBH/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm
Vote:April 26th, 2008 at 9:34 am
Redbaited: “When such as you wax on about “sacrifice” and “globalised world” and “imperialist brownie points” in your ponderous and pretentious manner, you just make me want to vomit.”
Tell me what I need to say to actually make you vomit, Redbaited, and I’ll see what I can do.
Seriously, glad to see that you’re still in character. Exceedingly entertaining as always. If there is an award for outrageous dupsters, I’d like to be the first to nominate you.
Vote:April 26th, 2008 at 9:48 am
Duxton, I see that the tenor of your review is not far removed from what I say in my previous post here.
I don’t think that we are threadjacking, as we are discussing interpretations of New Zealand’s history, so can I ask for the 2000 reference about the made-up references? If you like, you could respond on my own blog… you know, the “fifth rate tired old commie crap.”
Vote:April 26th, 2008 at 11:57 am
jafapete – my main reference is in my office (ie, at work), so I will post early next week. It is contained in the preface to Peter Maxwell’s book ‘Frontier: the Battle for the North Island of New Zealand.’ Maxwell found a descrepancy with one of Belich’s references, where Belich claimed Te Kooti was present at a particular battle, and cited a letter as a reference for this. Mexwell knew that Te Kooti couldn’t possibly have been, and so went looking for the letter.
Surprise, surprise – there was no lteer. Maxwell then began to check other reference, and found that others were made up as well.
One that I do recall relates to the battle of Waireka. On p86, Belich cites a claim by Harry Atkinson that he (Atkinson) only saw two dead Maori, and no live Maori, the whole day. In the original reference, however, Atkinson comments that when his force withdraw under cover of darkness to the nearby Omata Stockade, he saw two dead Maori and no live ones – ie, during the withdrawal itself. Belich, then, has taken one statement and completely changed the meaning and context.
Vote:April 26th, 2008 at 1:31 pm
Thanks Duxton, Just the reference is sufficient. Will look at this when I have more time in a month or two.
Interestingly, whilst looking for it on Google Scholar, I came across a paper that includes a useful characterisation of the debate on this thread about ANZAC Day:”This friction between renovated historiographies and conservative public discourses has given rise to moments of heated debate and polemic and, particularly in Australia, a polarisation between the so-called ‘black-armband’ and ‘white blindfold’ views of the past.”
Vote:April 27th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
The youth’s newfound reverence of Anzac day is admirable, but I hope it doesn’t ever evolve into the dogmatic kind of nationalism that our ancestors had to go to war against.
(I wonder how well New Zealanders would accept an area of our foreshore becoming a shrine to the dead of an invading army, and was overwhelmed by a bigger and bigger crowd of foreigners on the anniversary day every year? Say if a Japanese army had landed here in 1944, only to be beaten back after an epic and brutal fight?)
Vote: