General Debate 7 May 2008

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MrHappy

I’m down on the Greens list for election volunteers now, happy days. How many Kiwiblog posters will be actively involved in electioneering, and for which party?

Speak up!

MrHappy
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May 7, 2008 1:51pm
big bruv

Not sure that it is going to be that much of a happy day for you MrHappy, I would say that the Greens are history, even more so if you insist on letting Russel Norman on TV.

As for me, I am not sure, I will help somebody as I want Clark out more than anything I am just not sure if it will be Labour lite or ACT that I will assist on the day.
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May 7, 2008 1:59pm
labrator

Anyone else find the government advertisements encouraging you to “demand” side impact air bags on your next vehicle purchase not only an insult to most people who can’t afford petrol let along side impact air bags but also a disgusting waste of tax payers money considering the number of people it would protect?
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May 7, 2008 2:02pm
infused

Just shows how out of touch they are. My new Suzuki has them as standard 😀
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May 7, 2008 2:03pm
bearhunter

Are they fitted on the govet’s new Nazi taff cars….ooops, sorry, BMWs?
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May 7, 2008 2:08pm
Mike Collins

MrHappy I am an ACT candidate so no prizes for guessing who I will be electioneering for. Scrub that, I’ll consider giving prizes to Green supporters who can ‘guess’ correctly. 😉
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May 7, 2008 2:09pm
Hoolian

I love lamp.
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May 7, 2008 2:11pm
Hoolian

MrHappy is asking us to publicise what party we might be electioneering for, and then signs his name with a pseudonym. Isn’t that a tad ironic?
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May 7, 2008 2:13pm
Bevan

Not sure that it is going to be that much of a happy day for you MrHappy, I would say that the Greens are history, even more so if you insist on letting Russel Norman on TV.

Sure was a funny to watch. Thought the poor guy was going to break into tears and wail, wont somebody think of the planet.
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May 7, 2008 2:13pm
Rex Widerstrom

First of all what the hell is going on in our capital?! “Quirkiness” at a cost (so far) of $50,000? This is the same city Council I recall taking away Kenny’s amplifier (he was too quirky, apparently) and which generally shushs, tickets, permits and regulates the populace into submission. They want “quirky” ideas to “improve the way people feel about the Parliament area”? I’ll give them one for free – daily re-enactments of the storming of the Bastille, with real life participants.
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May 7, 2008 2:13pm
Barnsley Bill

Is Russell Norman an Aussie?
If he is that would make two idiots they have sent us to pollute our political system with their stupidity.
He got owned this morning by Paul Henry. started chuntering on about how he and the other 3 people on his bus this morning are subsidising car owners. is there a single public bus service that is not sponsored by a council? what a clown
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May 7, 2008 2:15pm
burt

Hoolian

It’s OK for members of and supporters of the Labour-led govt to insist others follow their rules while they flout them themselves. It’s called the price of getting the forth term. Please move on!
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May 7, 2008 2:16pm
Bevan

Are they fitted on the govet’s new Nazi taff cars….ooops, sorry, BMWs?

Heard an interseting thing on the radio before, there is a school in the South Island that is using a shipping container as a classroom – and for the price on one of the shiney new BMW’s at least two new classrooms could have been funded.

Imagine the advert: While Helen gets driven around in a BMW, the little school children wait……
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May 7, 2008 2:17pm
Oscars Grouchy Mum

I would encourage Russel Norman to carry on with his histrionics – he will go along way to switching off middle class housewives that were prepared to vote for them in the past. Previously they could afford to be vote on moral grounds, however nobody has told Russel that the middle class is suffering and their vote is likely to be cast on “what the hell can you do to alleviate my pain” grounds.
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May 7, 2008 2:18pm
Barnsley Bill

does anybody know whether he has ever worked in a proper job?
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May 7, 2008 2:19pm
burt

I fronted Norman when he was protesting outside the ANZ a few months back. I asked him why the Green party supports the EFB and since they do why they haven’t put their names and residential addresses on their protest banners.

He said I was stupid and didn’t know what I was talking about – well… Mr Norman – who’s the twat now eh?

Who would have picked a co-leader of a party based on (and founded in) activism would support laws to shut down dissent – clearly a power at any price Labour party poodle. Don’t vote Green if you care about the environment, unless of course you believe the Labour party has all the answers becasue we know the Green party lost their balls to stand up to Labour when they lost Rod Donald.
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May 7, 2008 2:20pm
Inventory2

If Mr Happy is electioneering for the Greens, shouldn’t he be displaying an authorisation? After all, the Greens were insistent that we needed this law……..
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May 7, 2008 2:21pm
Rex Widerstrom

Second of all, having been out of the country a while now I was appalled to find there were no paediatric oncologists at Wellington Hospital and that brave kids like young Liam (featured in the story) and their families have to fly to Christchurch for treatment.

Meanwhile, the junior doctors’ strike is being estimated to cost the country $20 to $30 million (by HVDHB member Peter McCardle, who I know to be pretty good with his sums). Those junior doctors go on to be senior doctors – some of them no doubt paediatric oncologists.

Could someone of the “Labour good, National bad” mentality (not that I’ve seen anything to suggest National would fix this, so it’s more the “Labour good” side of the brain I’m appealing to here) care to lead me down the complex logical path that’s led to this outcome, and explain just how we’re all benefiting from this masterful and visionary leadership of our public health system?

(By the way, I hope Wellington Kiwibloggers will get behind the Bowman-Todd memorial rugby match this weekend: a police invitational team v Waikanae invitational team, kicks off at 1.15pm at Waikanae Park, raising money for Ronald McDonald House. If anyone hears of a fund for young Liam himself, perhaps they could post the details here).
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May 7, 2008 2:22pm
Redbaiter

Make sure the word gets out. All these price increases, all of these fees and regulations that end up hitting the man in the street in the pocket are coming about because of GREEN LEFT politics. The Greens and Labour.

Of course if the Nats had ever had the balls, they’d now be in a position to capitalize big time, but I guess all they can really do now is watch and weep, and reminisce about lost opportunities.

Nats aside folks, make sure the message gets out. Greens and Leftists. Thats why you’re paying. They will be obliterated at the ballot box.
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May 7, 2008 2:24pm
slightlyrighty

Having done volunteer work in Africa, I was reminded of my experiences there while looking at this mornings paper. I was working at an educational facility for underprivileged children. 6 of the classrooms were converted shipping containers which at least had doors and windows.

I am genuinely shocked that the day after 665 million is spent on buying back NZ rail, I see a report that our education system is having to revert to third world solutions.

This is a disgrace.
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May 7, 2008 2:27pm
burt

slightlyrighty

Well said, just imagine the front page picture of a new BMW parked beside the container classroom when the minister goes to visit… This is the sad reality of it all. Such is socialism.
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May 7, 2008 2:31pm
big bruv

I have a question for DPF.

Given that you mix in political circles I would assume that you are friends with those who support other parties, do you find it easy to make friends with them or is it a case (as I suspect) that those from the left are incapable of setting aside their political ideals and are hostile to anybody who is not left wing?

[DPF: Two ways to answer that. First of all I have many non political friends, and while we don’t discuss politics often lots of them do not vote National.

Secondly yes I certainly have friends who are actively involved with other parties. There are some political activists who find it impossible to be civil to or not hate their political opponents, but they are thankfully a fairly small minority. Some of my best nights out on the piss have been with members of Young Labour debating politics. I’ve also got some solid friendships with staff members in the Beehive, including the 9th floor.

So it is a minority that are incapable of being friends with people whose politics they disagree with. That minority would appear (to me) to be a bigger minority on the left, but that might just be from my perspective.

I’ve also dated people whose political views are very very different to my own. In fact truth be told it gets fairly boring to date someone if you agree with them all the time]
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May 7, 2008 2:34pm
Inventory2

Anyone else catch up on Helen Clark telling Bollard to cut interest rates before the election?

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2008/05/helens-message-to-bollard.html

So much for the independence of the Reserve Bank as far as Labour sees it!!
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May 7, 2008 2:37pm
MrHappy

Big Bruv: “…is it a case (as I suspect) that those from the left are incapable of setting aside their political ideals and are hostile to anybody who is not left wing?”

In real life, I haven’t known any of my acquaintances (mixed across a bunch of different political persuasions) to be hostile in any way towards each other on the basis of political allegiances. In my travels on the blogosphere it has been right-wing commentators that have suggested their ideological compatriots are ‘traitors’ for having friends across party lines (Whale Oil and Cactus Kate). I can only hope they were joking.

MrHappy
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May 7, 2008 2:42pm
jafapete

BigBruv: “is it a case (as I suspect) that those from the left are incapable of setting aside their political ideals and are hostile to anybody who is not left wing?”

F**k off you stupid pillock!!!! Oops, I see what you mean…

[Note: that was a joke, folks]
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May 7, 2008 2:50pm
goodgod

You can always count on a lefty to shed tears over his vicitimisation for criminally insane ideas or acts. My advice is to be firm but fair: tell them to fuck off, and pray that one day they will grow into adults. Abusing lefties, social Liberals and other riff raff is a vicious circle, one which I’m happy to maintain, as it gets much more done than entertaining their ultimate goal: reducing ridiculous arguments to etymological discussions.
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May 7, 2008 2:59pm
gd

can someone photoshop or what ever the term is one of the BMW with PM or other Minister getting in or out parked next to a container and then find a photo of Bob Mugabe getting in or out of one of his stretched Mercedes and do a Tui advt and post it .

Please ………. I would but as you can tell by the bloody spelling Im hopeless with all this new fangled tech stuff.
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May 7, 2008 3:01pm
Ross Miller

In a little over three weeks time some 2,000+ Vietnam veterans and their families will descend on Wellington for Tribute 08. You will recognise them as men older than their years suggest. Tribute 08 is part of the Agent Orange reconciliation package agreed to by Government following an extensive campaign by veterans and their supporters.
The days preceeding will see official apologies delivered in Parliament while at Tribute 08 itself the Chief of Defence Force will make a second apology on behalf of the New Zealand Defence Force.

What are they apologising for? … answer, decades of refusal by successive governments and the military to acknowledge the wrongs suffered by Vietnam veterans including particularly the failure to recognise their exposure to Agent Orange and the subsequent effect on their health. That failure is typified by the commissioning by Governments of the Reeves Report (1998) and the McLeod Report (2003) both of which repeated the lie that NZ Servicemen were not exposed to Agent Orange and, ipso facto, suffered no ill effects. Subsequent investigations have revealed that the New Zealand Defence Force had in their files official documents that would have given the lie to those conclusions and that either by ommission or commission those documents were never made available to the two inquiries.

Nothing would have changed but for the finding of the ‘Masters Map’ a classified document which plotted the aerial spraying patterns over Phouc Tuy Province which contained the ANZAC Task Force Base. And nothing would have changed if it was not for the tenacious efforts of Judith Collins MP to have the Health Select Committee investigate the whole sorry saga and produce a damning report which was the catalyst for all subsequent action.

It is appropriate too to acknowlege the actions of Phil Goff who promoted the settlement through Cabinet. We know he was a Vietnam protester but he is to be congratulated for his determination to put things right. His action was in stark contrast to those of ex-Minister Hawkins who, at the time we produced the map, derrided it as a possible forgery.

So, when you see some battered but pround ‘old’ men in Wellington over Queens Birthday Weekend reflect on the fact that they will be remembering the 37 of their colleagues who didn’t return from that particularly shitty war and also the 600 of their colleagues who have passed on since, many before their time. because nobody cared enough to believe them.

If any of you feel moved by this and would like to help the children and grandchildren of Vietnam veterans, many of whom have been effected by their parents service, you can visit our website at http://www.evsayouthtrust.org.nz to find out more
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May 7, 2008 3:02pm
Hoolian

Russell Norman is an Aussie, and no, he’s never had a real job in his life – he’s worked for the Green Party/MPs his entire life. Its a reflection more on the Greens than on anything else.
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May 7, 2008 3:04pm
big bruv

Jafa

People like you really fuck it up for me, as much as I should want to run you over on sight you seem to be a rather annoyingly reasonable chap….could you please be a bit more like Woger Nome, Tane and Robinsod so I could gun you down without a care in the world.
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May 7, 2008 3:06pm
gd

Here Here Ross Being a RIGHT WINGER even in student days I watched as Clark and Goff and the other members of the Princes St Branch marched down Queen St and shouted and spat at the Police and anyone who disagreed with them. In fact on one ocassion exiting the old carpark where the Aotea Centre now stands on a wet Friday night I nearly ran a group of them down when they got in my way..
Thinking back my miss could be deemed by some as a contribution to the parlace state of our society and if so I apologise.
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May 7, 2008 3:08pm
stephen

If you lardos got off your arses and ‘looked’ you would have found Norman’s CV http://www.greens.org.nz/people/russelnorman.htm
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May 7, 2008 3:21pm
jafapete

gd, I was there too, a younger member of Princes St Branch, not as old as Goff & Clark.

We did a lot of yelling on demos, but I do not recall anybody in Princes St Branch spitting, and most especially not Clark or Goff. That would have been very much out of character for those two.

There were all sorts of people on those marches, including some extreme types, anarchists and the like. They may well have spat at the police.

I think your story about regretting running them down says it all, and is an eloquent, if unintended, rebuttal of BigBruv’s original assertion.
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May 7, 2008 3:22pm
stephen

BB, I remember DPF writing about a National party function where they generally invite all the other parties *except* Labour. Hardly a surprise with all the personality attacks they both do to each other.

[DPF: The non invites to Labour are more on the basis of them being the one party that you will not be doing a post-election deal with. The invites are more political than personal]
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May 7, 2008 3:23pm
Redbaiter

“We did a lot of yelling on demos”

Typical Bolshevik tactic.
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May 7, 2008 3:26pm
Bevan

Wow, he really has done fuck all in his life……
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May 7, 2008 3:26pm
Portia

What frustrates me about the Greens is that they are wasting a perfect opportunity to revitalise their party. Instead of continuing to wax lyrical with doom and gloom climate change prophesies (We get it. It’s going to be grim. Now move on), where are the good news stories that might engender a bit of enthusiasm into the debate?

What about the economic advantages of going green? In California, ecobusiness is the new DotCom industry. Exciting, new, and the darling of venture capitalists.

When people talk about the perils of 1st generation Biofuels (ethanol and other food sources) why aren’t the Greens immediately redirecting discussion to emerging 2nd generation biofuels that won’t result in mass starvation, eg from wood chips, effluent or algae. Especially when there are so many possibilities sitting on our doorsteps and could, with some targeted R&D, result in exciting growth industries.

We’ve already developed a successful “Clean Green” tourism brand (albeit we’re at dire risk of squandering it). Why not capitalise on this, and aim to roll it out into other all other primary industries? NZ to be one giant organic farm by, say, 2025 – well, why not?

Green could be the new Black if only they’d learn to accessorise!
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May 7, 2008 3:26pm
helmet

I agree about Rusty Norman! A whinging ginger aussie spokesperson is NOT a good look. His (heees) accent combined with his whiney voice and unfortunate appearance is not exactly what you want for a kiwi poster boy politician.
Compare him with say Pita ‘astute, but could still punch your lights out’ Sharples, and he looks like a pissant.
Perhaps Norman and Brenden Sheehan could start a club. They could call it ‘aussie wankers who want to f#$k your life up’ or ‘aussie tree hugging society- we also do corpses’…. the potential is endless.
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May 7, 2008 3:30pm
stephen

Portia, a quick searhc aand the greens were talking about ‘other’ biofuels there…http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0804/S00109.htm . Maybe they haven’t been doing so for long enough? I would imagine there’d be a fair bit once their policies come out though.
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May 7, 2008 3:32pm
stephen

helmet, at least he doesnt wear his collar outside his jacket any more! yuk
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May 7, 2008 3:33pm
helmet

I just checked out his CV- what there is of it anyway. Not very impressive at all. The guy’s got no fucking experience at anything except party indoctrination

He’s only been here since ’97, why the fuck do we keep importing second rate, ugly ginger whinger politicians? Bendhim Sheehan, Tim Barnett, Chris Carter, the list goes on. The left are all useless minority activist imports!
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May 7, 2008 3:36pm
helmet

Stephen- Thank f#@k for that. Someone must have taught him to tie his own tie.
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May 7, 2008 3:38pm
Chicken Little

jafapete – are you calling gd a liar?
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May 7, 2008 3:38pm
jafapete

No Chicken Little, just mistaken.
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May 7, 2008 3:40pm
stephen

Helmet, can’t say I really agree with ‘bugger all’, before politics was “Organic market gardener and native bush regeneration 1998-9; Farmhand on organic farm 1997-9; PhD Scholarship 1996-7; Gardener 1994-5; Car assembly-line worker 1990-2; Sheetmetal worker 1989-90; Nurse’s Aid 1988.”

Can’t help thinking that he was a member of another party, people would see car assembly, sheet metal worker, nurse’s aid and gardening work (if we take away the PhD) and say ‘yeah salt of the earth, really knows what it’s like to be an ordinary worker’. But it’s all irrelevant?

And isn’t ‘indoctrination’ as you put it what political parties DO?!

edit: good comment re: Sharples though, heh.
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May 7, 2008 3:43pm
Portia

Thanks Stephen. I guess my point is more the lack of dynamism that stops stories like these getting the airplay they deserve.

It’s time for the Greens to stop wearing their hearts on their hemp-shirt sleeves, and start competing for the limelight. And, if they at least look like they’re having some fun, others might want to come to their party!
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May 7, 2008 3:45pm
Redbaiter

When I arrived back here around 1999 I witnessed the ACT bus parked somewhere up near the uni in Auckland and Hide and Prebble were trying to make a policy speech. Here was a small group of brave people advocating for small government and personal liberty and they were being attacked and shouted down by a band of cowardly ignorant big government thugs, and most of these thugs (if not all) came from the *university*. I realized then that NZ was in big trouble. Now I know that was only the tip of the iceberg. Unless we can shake off the dead hand of Communism, sidling in as Liberalism and Socialism and Progressivism and all those other deceitful euphemisms, this country and everything that we have ever valued here is gone.
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May 7, 2008 3:49pm
slightlyrighty

I note that the standard is reporting on a letter that the Herald refused to print. This letter notes the herald’s accusation of xenophobia towards the Government over the OIA decision on the Auckland Airport and wonders why the National response to the buyback of NZ Rail, showing the benefit to Australian Shareholders over NZ Taxpayers is not similarly labelled.

The debate is good for a laugh in my opinion.
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May 7, 2008 3:49pm
Redbaiter

“And isn’t ‘indoctrination’ as you put it what political parties DO?!”

He was doin’ OK till he went for the PhD….
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May 7, 2008 3:52pm
LabourMustBeLiquidated

Heres hoping the Greens get slaughtered at the next election. And never come back again.
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May 7, 2008 3:56pm
stephen

PhDs are supposed to be contribute something very new to their particular field, which as requirements go are a definite plus…No idea what it was in though – no doubt some sort of horribly disagreeable contribution to political thinking…
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May 7, 2008 4:07pm
Short Shriveled and Slightly to the Left

Redbaiter
What about the “Act” students who shouted down Helen Clark during the 2005 election campaign………”brave people” or “thugs”?
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May 7, 2008 4:56pm
James Sleep

Labour for me – Mr. Happy
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May 7, 2008 5:15pm
Redbaiter

“What about the “Act” students who shouted down Helen Clark during the 2005 election campaign”

If any did it was only retaliation.
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May 7, 2008 5:31pm
big bruv

One of the things I will enjoy most about the upcoming election is knowing that James, Woger and co will have a miserable night watching the results come in.
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May 7, 2008 5:34pm
stephen

Runs in cycles.

I doubt DPF is still watching, but in reply I would say that personal and political relationships probably overlap a bit too…
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May 7, 2008 6:06pm
Short Shriveled and Slightly to the Left

“If any did it was only retaliation.”
weak reply Redbaiter, very weak
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May 7, 2008 6:39pm
helmet

Stephen I suspect that Rusty’s CV is pretty well padded out there. Sheet metal worker? Car assembly worker? Don’t they look great, and prove he’s a blue collar man?

I’m skeptical. I don’t think it counts for much. I was a student for a while, and did heaps of odd jobs- injection moulding, transport logistics, organic beekeeping, carpet cleaning, thermography, an orderly at the hospital, a canning factory (sheet metal worker anyone?) all part time, and I don’t stick them on my CV unless they’re specifically relevant to what I’m applying for. I don’t think a couple of part time jobs in your youth really count much towards the real life experience that you’d want in a political leader. It’s not as if he was particularly successful or experienced at anything.

The remainder of it tells a more important story. (Ok I’m just taking a punt here but here it goes) His market gardening and bush restoration? Sounds like he’s done a stint as a woofer and maybe hung out with the conservation corps. Big deal. Is that what makes you an expert in running a sustainable country?
To me the CV looks like he was a student doing some casual work working some odd jobs so he could afford a few luxuries. Then he graduated with a useless degree, and had to work on an organic farm until the greens picked him up.
Anyone who’s got a decent phd doesn’t have to suck arse to get to be an assistant to an MP in a minority party. I know it’s tough being a ginger but if he was really much good even the hair (or the accent) wouldn’t have held him back.
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May 7, 2008 6:40pm
Patrick Starr

I’ve only been reading this site for the last year and I’d really like to thank Redbaiter and Johnboy amongst others for not only providing an opposing view to the lefties that invade the site, but providing a great deal of entertainment as well.
Well done guys
Keep it up!
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May 7, 2008 11:06pm
Johnboy

You can come back whenever you like Pat me boyo. ( I think RB would agree )
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May 7, 2008 11:08pm
Nomestradamus

Hmmm… the mind boggles at this story:

Schoolchildren in Mid-Canterbury are being forced to use a shipping container as their classroom.
…
The school has five teachers, with a sixth expected this year, and only four classrooms. One class has been taught in the school library for nearly 15 months. The school board has asked repeatedly for two more classrooms — estimated to cost $350,000 — but has been unsuccessful.
…
[Ministry of Education] regional manager (southern) Mike DeAth said the school had continued to enrol outside a proposed zone and had to be aware that the siblings of those children might not be able to attend. He said the ministry was not in the business of horse-trading over classrooms.

DeAth said legislation made it clear that boards of trustees had to follow rules or an enrolment scheme could be imposed. However, the ministry would prefer to continue discussions.

DeAth said he could not comment on the legality of children being taught in a container, but wondered if it was a responsible move.

He said boards had a responsibility to provide a safe environment.

Comments:

(1) I don’t know off-hand if the Human Rights Act prohibits discrimination on the basis of a person’s name – but DeAth doesn’t exactly inspire confidence!

(2) DeAth wants boards of trustees to follow rules – but in this case would prefer to continue discussions about how the board will follow rules. Ministry gun to board head?

(3) On any fair reading, this story paints the Ministry of Education in a poor light, and I suspect there’s a much bigger story behind it.

Does anyone have more information?
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May 8, 2008 12:44am
OECD rank 22 kiwi

So on tax cuts Cullen has ruled out a tax-free income threshold in the budget. What are the odds that Labour goes for a lump sum tax rebate payment (George Bush style)? Would this kind of bribe work with the electorate?
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May 8, 2008 2:17am
Pascal

RedBaiter: Make sure the word gets out. All these price increases, all of these fees and regulations that end up hitting the man in the street in the pocket are coming about because of GREEN LEFT politics. The Greens and Labour.

You mean the Exclusive Brethren were actually right with their pamphlets at the last election? No wonder Labour and the Greens worked so hard to shut them down. Letting New Zealanders know what the truth is, as opposed to Labour and Green spin, is not on. It’s just not on.
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May 8, 2008 7:10am
pisces

Can anyone tell me what has happened to Molesworth and Featherston? It seems to have disappeared without a trace.
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May 8, 2008 7:32am
adamsmith1922

The DomPost has an editorial today on the Thompson affair at Immigration. For those interested I have posted an update with some comments of my own here:-

http://adamsmith.wordpress.com/2008/05/08/584/
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May 8, 2008 9:30am
stephen

Helmet, yeah maybe, maybe not. I prefer not to care too much about former occupations. I worked on orchards for 6 months after i finished my degree because I wasn’t sure whether I wanted to go overseas or work professionally, and if i wanted to go overseas I would need a fair bit of money. I was also broke after uni (surprise). Maybe Norman did the same for a lot longer. Now we have people (only on Kiwiblog, admittedly) who seem to think being a unionist or a teacher invalidates one as an aspirant to political power, and someone must have generated a quarterly profit to be worthy of being an MP…

Meh!
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May 8, 2008 9:53am
stephen

did DPF ‘negative’ me for saying “only on Kiwiblog, admittedly’? lol
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May 8, 2008 1:35pm
JSF2008

Has anyone been invited to the king of tongas do,if so, are they in the A B or C function, dont fat islanders look smart wearing pith helmets payed for by us, Um is this why our kids learn in a steel container, or is it because we give a $1000000,to the burma junta so they can put it in their Swiss bank accounts, WHO KNOWS??, cyclone WHAT cyclone,THE JUNTA HAVNT NOTICED?????
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May 8, 2008 6:44pm

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