As it turns out, ASEAN appears to be marshaling a response. Military planners within the ASEAN group can, in fact, see strategic (and diplomatic) utility in using regional military assets for humanitarian purposes (stopping short of using force against the Burmese military). It gives members the opportunity to test the operational readiness of their own disaster relief apparatus as well as their military logistics capabilities, and allows them to engage in joint exercises with other member states and UN relief agencies to that end. With the PRC hamstrung by its own disaster, Singapore and Thailand, in particular, have pushed for concerted ASEAN response along lines used in the December 2006 tsunami relief efforts. The important aspect of this initiative is that it is trusted by Myanmar’s rulers, who, however tribal and clannish in orientation, clearly understand that their grip on power is not simply based on in-group allegiances but in fact requires broad institutional foundations and external support (which the junta enjoys, however sad it is to say so, from most of its neighbours). Thus the Herald editorial was not only ill-considered, lacking in fore-thought and unconcerned about the consequences of military intervention. It also ignored the efforts already underway to remedy the situation by means short of war. If humanitarian assistance is what the Herald and global community want to offer to those suffering the effects of the cyclone, then regime change will have to wait and foreign military intervention will have to be limited to operations other than combat.

“The Sandinista National Liberation Front (Spanish: Frente Sandinista de Liberación Nacional) is a Marxist Nicaraguan political party. Their organization is generally referred to by the initials FSLN and its members are called, in both English and Spanish, Sandinistas. This term comes from what the Sandinistas termed the anti-imperialist struggle of Augusto César Sandino during the 1930s.
The FLSN overthrew the Somoza regime in 1979, establishing a Soviet- and Castro-aligned junta in its place.”

“is it only when the USA are involved that its bad?”

Actually the Sandinistas were part of the broader coalition (though the Sandinistas did play a leading role in the coup) aiming to overthrow the Somoza regime and create a democracy. This conglomeration of groups was backed by Jimmy Carter’s administration, not the Soviet Union.

The Sandinistas were ideologically eclectic, but primarily of the left (only a minority were Marxist). Because the US abandoned Nicaragua when it came under left wing leadership (under Somoza Nicaragua received almost all its external assistance from the US), it was forced to rely on Cuba and the Soviets for aid – so the US in effect pushed it into the arms of the Soviets.

Independent groups from the UN and Western Europe gave the elections a pass. Of course the US condemned the elections, because their paramilitary group (Contras) weren’t part of the new Government.

“is it only when the USA are involved that its bad?”

Actually the Sandinistas were part of the broader coalition (though the Sandinistas did play a leading role in the coup) aiming to overthrow the Somoza regime and create a democracy. This conglomeration of groups was backed by Jimmy Carter’s administration, not the Soviet Union.

The Sandinistas pledged to work for “political pluralism, a mixed economic system, and a non-aligned foreign policy.”

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field(DOCID+ni0024)

The Sandinistas were ideologically eclectic, but primarily of the left (only a minority were Marxist). Because the US abandoned Nicaragua when it came under left wing leadership (under Somoza Nicaragua received almost all its external assistance from the US), it was forced to rely on Cuba and the Soviets for aid – so the US in effect pushed it into the arms of the Soviets.

Independent groups from the UN and Western Europe gave the elections a pass. Of course the US condemned the elections, because their paramilitary group (Contras) weren’t part of the new Government.

“I’ve been absent from the comments here for a while because I now genuinely believe I’m wasting my time, and I need to concentrate on my own income and future survival strategies. Aussie? Maybe. The US? They’re actually cooked too, and the whole world along with them, if they get a hard-left nut as President this time round. Maybe a move to the Czech Republic? At least THEY still value freedom as a concept, but the downside is that Leftist appeasement-policy nutters all over the leadership of the free world, including the future leaders of the US, tend to throw the hapless Czechs to whatever totalitarian nasties are rattling their sabres, FIRST, in the hopes that THEY will be attacked last. One heck of a LOT rides on the US having a president who is a foreign policy tough, regardless of how stupid people all over the world despise and mock the guy.”

Very apposite here. Redbaiter, keep up the fight, you’re a gem.

See the thread about ACT’s 20 Points to get my full doom-and-gloom laden comment.

Of course “The United Nations” doesn’t want this sort of thing to happen, an outright MAJORITY of its members ARE totalitarian states. As for leftwingers in the Western world, the reason THEY don’t want this sort of thing happening is that they are IN FAVOUR of ESTABLISHING in THEIR OWN COUNTRIES, the type of regimes we are talking here about overthrowing.

By the way, our antiNuke policy is actually a little AKIN to the leadership of Burma disallowing foreign aid in the event of a natural disaster, given that the first thing the Yanks always do in these situations, is to send a nuclear aircraft carrier.

The propagandists of the Left love to claim that the END, that of egalitarianism, justified the various means that THEIR favourite regimes used to gain hegemony over whatever parts of the world. But they don’t allow the OTHER side to claim any such defence, THIS in the face of the collossal disparity between the ENDS in REALITY, between the 2 systems. These people are just sick in the head and there is no point in people like Redbaiter and myself wasting our time arguing with them, except for the fact that there MIGHT be ignorant youngsters online that might just be saved by reason in the face of whatever propaganda tripe that they have been pumped full of already by their teachers, uni professors, the media, or whatever.

I would argue that “I have difficulty with is accepting screeds of propaganda that are sourced from the same old hate America communist/ media /academic conglomerate” covers a wide range of sources – which I suspect is his goal – with the possible exception of FOX News, who I think you must admit are unlikely to report on the events we are discussing. If you start the argument by saying that all your opponent’s information is biased and untrue, it puts them on the back foot.

Redbaiter himself has not presented a single link to a single source to back up his claims. That fact speaks for itself. Either he couldn’t find any on FOX, or its nap time at his kindy and he is asleep.

Citing “information clearing house” is really unlikely to present a counter argument to:

I have difficulty with is accepting screeds of propaganda that are sourced from the same old hate America communist/ media /academic conglomerate

Other sites you might want to avoid quoting are Znet, counterpunch and codepink.

The CIA overthrew democratically-elected governments all over Latin America in the name of securing American dominance in the region. They trained their goons at the School of the Americas in Georgia, and then sent them south to do their dirty work. The CIA trained the death squads that committed crimes against humanity in places such as Guatemala, El Salvador, and Honduras. These people killed their political opponents, innocent civilains, aid workers, and in some cases even nuns.

These are the people who committed the actions that Redbaiter insanely says were “in the name of democracy”. He lambasts the likes of roger nome for not criticising leftist regimes that commit crimes, while glossing over the littany of American crimes himself. He is a hypocrite, a right-wing propagandist, and a liar.

A link to an article about America’s actions in Latin America: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18920.htm

“As it turns out, time is an enemy of the Burmese junta. The more they fail to respond to the disaster , the more politically untenable their rule becomes.”

No, it is not. The Burmese government is tribal/clan based. All power lies in the hands of the Burman tribe junta who have been fighting with or conducting ethnic aggression against the minorities. The Burman live in the central valley, they make up 70% of the total population.

Some aid is being delivered and this is wholly directed by the junta to the Burman population, some of whom have been pretty hard hit. The regime is delivering effective aid for its own purposes.

The Irawaddy delta is home to a substantial Karen minority amoung the population who are by default enemies of the regime. If 100,000 Karen are to die in this disaster it will probably benefit the regime. They have been conducting a slow burning ethnic cleansing in the delta for the last 30 years, the cyclone is merely a step forward in their program.

“The solution is to press the Chinese to convince the Burmese generals to follow their lead when it comes to disaster relief, which means inviting expertise and materiel from selected countries that they trust.”

They could certainly do with some more aid, it will save lives. People should feel good about giving it. However this will not weaken the regime.

The only reason anyone reads the HoS is because they mowed their lawns on Saturday in stead of Sunday.

Too right.

What I have difficulty with is accepting screeds of propaganda that are sourced from the same old hate America communist/ media /academic conglomerate that has tightly controlled political information for nigh on thirty or fourty years and is mostly responsible for the proliferation of anti US propaganda that you and others glibly repeat like the brainless indoctrinated parrots you mostly are. Leftist re-writes of history are prolific and always breathtaking in their reversal of reality. Whenever I have taken the time to investigate the kind of fabrications that litter your message above Scott I have unfailingly discovered them to be bullshit.

The fact is that there are two other world powers that always have totalitarianism as their objective, along with a desire to control all of the resources of the globe. Oil minerals, whatever. The question is simple. Do you support these totalitarian dictators, or do you support the only real democratic government that still stands in their way, the US, itself under threat from within like every other western nation (including NZ) by a fifth column of the same totalitarian forces?? ie the hard left pro-communist global socialists. Easily identified because they constantly remain completely silent concerning the transgressions of the anti-human ideologies they cheer for but are found here or a thousand other places, enthusiastically attacking the US at the same time as they work assiduously away for the global cause of leftist totalitarianism.

Every time you bash the USA and ignore the real evil of Chicom generals, you give these demented and misguided and evil slime another foothold on their beachhead on their battlefront in their global war against democracy and liberty. Once again, your tenet that there is no difference between left and right is shown to be infantile idiocy, and dangerous to freedom.

Isn’t that the same as Iraq? – is it only when the USA are involved that its bad?

“Sandanista elections were certified as free and fair by the international observers” of course, my mistake again, it was only the USA that observed that they were voting down the barrel of an AK47

The Somoza’s were a military dictatorship so overthrowing them wasn’t much of a blow against democracy. And the Sandanista elections were certified as free and fair by the international observers. Lets all try and keep our rants vaguely plausible . . .

Roger;
The Sandinistas overthrew the Somoza Presidency in 1979, establishing a Soviet- and Castro-backed junta in its place. – sure they held elections after that, but same way your friend Robert Mugabe also claims to remain democratically elected!

“No concrete evidence was supplied. Why you would trust the Bush administration with anything is beyond me.” I supppose the Kurds just died of natural causes? (Halabja poison gas attack 1988)
Remember at least 2 presidents before GWB attacked Iraq – one of them was your dear Clinton.

IMO The debt of gratitude the western world owe the USA can never be easily repaid. Without them what language do you suppose we’d be speaking today (or maybe just facing allah?)