I agree with others that there is something about having to stand in an electorate that usually prevents nutters from being elected, but I also agree that MMP has brought some more interesting politicians into parliament. SM achieves a better balance in my opinon.

Anyway, the Maori seats and consequent voting behaviour they foster undermine the current version of MMP and mean it is not proportional at all. It therefore needs reform or replacement.

No-one said “MMP gave the world Hitler”. But it’s a fact that’s how he gained power with the backing of a minority of Germany’s voters. Germany’s MMP system from then is virtually unchanged, and thus New Zealand’s is virtually the same.
Check your OWN facts!

The rugby team selection analogy: the point was that proportional representation focuses on accuracy of representation rather than selecting the best.

CD: “Your best people may not be my best people.”

I’m damn sure they’re not. That’s the point about an election. Letting the people pick the best not leaving the choice to party hacks. MMP, with its Continental origins, seems to parallel Continental courts. Unlike us, few have juries. They don’t trust the ordinary man and woman in the street.

CD: “I am still waiting for evidence about how changing electoral systems will raise our standards of living and address the fundamental concerns of NZers.”

And hasn’t our economy flourished under the change to MMP? Private debt blown out. Chronic balance of payments imbalance. Inflation threatening to zoom out of control again. Our artificially high kiwi dollar choking our export industries (except for dairying in the middle of a gold rush).

MMP has given us a bizarre country fiddling with social welfare measures like child smacking while the economy burns. All driven by people inelectable if they face the vote of ordinary Kiwis: Red Keith Locke, far-left Bradford and most of the the other Greens are good examples of those who can’t win an electorate seat.

“…..after seeing what happens in practice with MMP creating this tail-wagging-the-dog scenario, it seems a ludicrous outcome of MMP that any party which only achieves 5% of the vote should have any representation in Parliament at all – let alone be in a position to dictate terms to a major party”

Gosh where is the evidence for this – in fact all the evidence in New Zealand suggests otherwise.

The fact is those supporting a shift way from MMP (to less proportional systems of political representation) can offer no problem that this shift will fix.

Not one example of a problem fixed by changing electoral systems!

Indeed those on the centre-right who advance this nonsense are actually admitting that they do not think that their fellow citizens can be persuaded to voluntarily vote for their policy prescription in sufficient numbers so their solution is to disenfranchise other votes to ensure they do not get what they voted for. It’s an admission of total political failure – a lack of confidence in the innate common sense of their fellow citizens.

What a travesty.

It is this sort of thinking that will ensure that centre-right interest in changing the electoral system will probably ensure no change to MMP – the moment voters get a whiff of this in the argument surrounding a referendum they will be dead in the water.

Which parties do you see as being smaller? After the upcoming election, would Labour go to the larger parliament or the smaller? If we send all the parties to the smaller parliament we end up with what we have now.

Also consider this new perverse outcome it creates (well known from the way that some family owned companies are controlled).

Small party, say Winston First, gets 10 seats. Some other minor parties get a handful of seats – giving a total seats for this smaller parliament of 19 seats. So every time this smaller parliament meets, Winston First will dominate it.

Now imagine that the balance of power requires 5 votes. You’ve gone from a situation where the largest party (say, National) could pick and choose minor parties, thereby weakening their power, to a situation where Winston First’s 10 votes get magnified to 19 votes, which is always sufficient to control parliament (assuming that National and Labour always choose opposite sides – which they seem to, despite the fact that they often agree).

Italy is famous for this – small holding company has 51% of the votes in large company. Another small holding company has 51% of the first holding company. Another small holding company has 51% of the second holding company. Result, 13% of the ownership has control of the company.

In short, don’t like your idea at all. I see it as undemocratic, and as giving the opposite outcome to the one you want.

The parliament at the moment block votes under MMP

To reduce the leverage of smaller parties, they would form a mini parliament and come to a consensus

Which was suppose to be the point of MMP

Question: Given the large number of women in our society who are parents – how many are in parliament?
Question: Given the number of lesbian women in the NZ population – how many are in the government?

Don’t tell me MMP is working, it is not. And given that NZ is still a democracy (just) I will use whatever name I want

Further to this, after seeing what happens in practice with MMP creating this tail-wagging-the-dog scenario, it seems a ludicrous outcome of MMP that any party which only achieves 5% of the vote should have any representation in Parliament at all – let alone be in a position to dictate terms to a major party.

This experiment clearly hasn’t worked and its time to face up to the fact and deal with the problem. Government is growing like a multi-headed monster and the state is consuming ever more of our money and resources while delivering less and less worthwhile services to the people that it is meant to serve.

It’s really like taking candy from a baby.

1. Germany – Held to ransom by the Free Democrats and the Greens.

Check your facts – grand coalition between Christian Democrats (and the Bravian Sister Party) and the Social Democrats. The second such grand coalition since the war.

One man’s ransom is another’s leverage.

You also ignore the possibility that good policy can emerge from small parties.

2. MMP puts nutters in Parliament.

Nutters = your subjective judgement.

That given, yes but only proportionately – as opposed to previous dis-proportionate numbers.

Like the poor, the nutters will always be among us and a number will always be elected to parliament.

3. The endless search for a “better” electoral system.

A fools errand. What is it that needs fixing that will be fixed by a different electoral system?

Paul:
1. Too great a tax cut? According to Cullen any tax cut at all is too great. Is that what you mean? It sure is what you used to say
2. It may not stop fuel rising, but it makes it cheaper, no?
3. Did you forget to say “Labour good, National bad”?

Anthony:
1. What advantage does SM have other than halving the representation of minor parties?
2. Do you think halving the representation of minority parties is a good thing?
3. Why?

Sure Germany is relatively prosperous but you can argue that is in spite of MMP rather than a result of.

The very nature of MMP almost guarantees a proportion of ‘nutters’ in Parliament. National and Labour (and I guess to be fair ACT) have the mechanisms and will to deal to their nutters. Other Parties don’t.

Is the NZ Parliament a better place through MMP. Possibly and possibly not. But now that we understand MMP and all its weaknesses and if if there is a better system then I for one have an open mind and am prepared to consider it and, having considered it, vote accordingly.

Not an entirely earth shattering position.

Simple Maths buddy, any cut or removal in duty/tax on fuel will only be temporary. At the rate that international oil is increasing, using the right wing line of cutting tax will be null in void within months to a year. This DOES NOT STOP fuel rising, it’s temporary.

Simple Maths buddy. Key can not control hedge funds speculating on West Texas Crude (which was partly responsible for the spike recently), despite what his increasing band of disciples believe of his powers.

Did you fail to mention the inflationary pressures of too great a tax cut, thus increasing interest rates and keeping the dollar high with foreign purchasing of the Kiwi with high interest rates? Was that Simple Maths enough for you?

It’s all perspective sunshine, there is no right or wrong answer, just perspective.

1. Promises, Promises.

There was no such promise to hold another referendum on MMP actually if NZers went for it – political myth – check previous comments.

2. Campaign for Better Govt.

Actually it was quite a good campaign – they put the case when no one else was prepared too. I love ward room warriors.

3. MMP gave the world Hitler

Check your facts.

4. MMP – held to ransom by the minors

No evidence of this here. Winston’s such a poodle that both Labour and National will have him as Foreign Minister. According to Muldoon the Government was held to ransom by Waring … is that what you mean?

5. Picking a rugby team or the All Blacks by MMP

That’s just it – we are not picking a sports team – it’s a House of Representatives – there is no ideal or best team – assuming that can objectively apply in politics.

Your best people may not be my best people.

6. ACT supports a referendum

Indeed. But ACT cites no particular advantage or problem solved by changing the electoral system.

I am still waiting for evidence about how changing electoral systems will raise our standards of living and address the fundamental concerns of NZers. Why National would want to go down this path when it will have it’s hands full is beyond me.

Change the Reserve Banks mandate to look at broader mix of economic indicators that just inflation thereby allowing crippling interest rates to be cut before they take the interanl economy to the brink of collapse.

Simply maths buddy.

It’s the ultimate back hand insult to the people. We’ll give you the voice, while allowing our ‘overlords’ to run a massive misinformation campaign. It’s disingenuous and insulting.

It would be a real shame to see any real policy in which the people could differentiate the govt from the right.

How bloody easy is it to be in opposition. Only Sat morning I heard Key’s criticism of the Govt re the poll claiming that the govt had done nothing to sort out interest rates or the rising cost of petrol. I’d love to know which of this new deities powers, will from the 9th floor of the Beehive he wield over the global petroleum markets – this i’ve gotta see. Fuck I’ll vote for the rich prick if he thinks he can control oil prices. Just like S Power thinks labour has failed to ‘stamp out crime’. Bugger me these bastards are really getting my vote if they can ‘stamp out crime’ and control global oil prices.

re your comments way back in the day in which minority “parties should have to block vote”.

Are you taking the piss, drunk or just arrogantly stupid.

You have no right using the pseudonym, you have no concept of Democracy, have you ever heard of anything less democratic than a party elected by the people forced to vote for values and issues they do not represent.

From the rest of your post, I assume that arrogance is possibly the best description.

As for your Dental Nurse jibe, pre tell how was the illustrious economic marvel Robert Muldoon, a qualified Accountant, to be remembered by the electorate other than failed leftist think big policies and more or less economic ruin – just a thought.

I mean we’d hate the ‘people’ to have a voice now wouldn’t we.

A descriptive theory of political representation such as MMP or STV is understandable by the public, they see themselves mirrored in the house of representatives, white, brown, asian, PI, gay, transgender, deaf, green, right, male female etc etc. A delegated system re FPP and the inner party workings associated with this may indeed foster a form of meritocracy, however as proven time and time again this too can not lead to good government.

It’s a simple choice between representation via a reflection of society or representation in terms of political elite.

I am very sorry for those whom somehow feel less democratic or ‘under-represented’ in govt over the last few years, welcome to the world of everyone and anyone whom wasn’t white middle class male for the last 100 years. I do have one fucking small violin that I am willing to break out for you. I mean how dare a transgender person present themselves in Parliament, we all know Accountants and Bankers are proportionally more important and thus have a greater right to power.