More faked Middle East coverage
May 29th, 2008 at 10:02 pm by David FarrarThere is a vibrant industry in the Middle East. It consists of faking photo opportunities to make Israel look bad. I’ve covered some in the past such as the so called bombed ambulance.
One of the biggest hoaxes has just been confirmed in a French court, as detailed by this excellent article by Piers Akerman.
THE death of 12-year-old Palestinian boy Mohammed al-Durra by “gunfire from the direction of the Israeli” forces, as reported by French TV reporter Charles Enderlin, was huge world news eight years ago.
But it now seems that what we saw was not what actually happened. The dramatic footage of the youngster crouched beside his father as “Israeli” bullets whizzed by him, the scenes of his death and his father’s wounding were ghastly but compelling viewing.
Invocations of the young al-Durra’s death became a regular ritual on Palestinian television, songs encouraging children to join him in martyrdom were written, streets were named after him, mothers were exhorted to encourage their infants to be like him, his image was even used on stamps.
The al-Durra imagery truly became, in the words of one Canadian journalist, “the farce that launched a thousand suicide bombers”.
Okay so this is not some minor footage. This is an iconic video.
Doubts arose about the footage shot by a Palestinian cameraman for the network France 2 when it was revealed the same person had been responsible for faking other news footage.
People need to know that almost all the international media use Palestinian stringers, with little checking for accuracy. Associated Press has been one of the worst offenders.
The independent investigators led by Philippe Karsenty, a director of the Media-Ratings watchdog, went further and said the scenes had been staged and that report was a “hoax”.
He was sued for defamation and lost in the initial court, but has just won in the Court of Appeal. Now wait to see what was revealed in court:
The inflammatory report was essentially destroyed when he ordered the government-owned broadcaster to produce all the raw footage shot of the incident and instead of a few seconds of film, an 18-minute excerpt, still not the complete sequence, was shown to the court.
It revealed staged battle scenes, rehearsed ambulance evacuations – but nothing to substantiate the toxic television report.
No shots were seen coming from the Israeli position, no bullets were shown striking the boy, no blood was seen on the father’s shirt, though he was said to have cradled his eviscerated son in his arms, and the boy is seen to move, even to look conspiratorially at the television camera, when he is supposed to have been dead.
Yes, he looked at the camera *after( he was shot dead. And French TV had this footage but never showed it – they just showed the hand picked segments which supported the story.
More damning evidence is on the Wall Street Journal.
Related posts:
- Today’s Middle East post
- Why there will never be peace in the Middle East
- Middle East
- Middle East politics
May 29th, 2008 at 10:15 pm
More photos for the memory hole.
“Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia”.
Vote:May 29th, 2008 at 10:15 pm
We’ve all been conned (well I was pretty sucked in anyway…)
The real battle is clearly for the hearts and minds of billions of TV viewers first… and then chunks of disputed land second.
Vote:May 29th, 2008 at 10:26 pm
I blame the French. Typical.
Vote:May 29th, 2008 at 10:49 pm
If the court of public opinion has already found you guilty then some strategically placed ‘big boys’ may not be out of the question.
Vote:You wouldn’t lose too many friends and time is a great forgiver
May 29th, 2008 at 10:55 pm
David, please don’t play the I’ll show you my fake, and you show me your real photo.
There are no winners in the region in which people will turn a gun on each other just because of their religion. If this was a fake, that is sad, but there are hundreds of verified real images of war from such organisations as the BBC, which clearly indicate that there are no winners here.
I am not a supporter of the Palestinians and I do believe that Israel has a right to exist, but I can not see how the oppressed are supposed to be above the violence. To confront a group of children with stones with a tank is nothing but intimidation of the biggest and nastiest. To tear down the houses of the relatives of bombers is horrifically reminiscent of the tactics of the Occupying German forces in France during WWII ( I should have used the word NAZI, which would historically be correct, but then people would say I was calling the Israelis NAZI, which of course I am not, I am merely pointing out that their tactics are more or less the same, without the summary execution that is). Hammas and the Palestinian people need to exercise restraint and begin the steps towards peace, of that there is no doubt.
I see that the Israelis have started letting limited supplies of fuel back into the Gaza strip. How very magnanimous of them. 1.4 million people and 3 trucks of fuel are allowed in, including 1 truck of cooking fuel. And we wonder why there is acrimony between the two peoples?
[DPF: You would be amazed how many photos are faked or staged. This is not an isolated incident. Of course it does not mean bad things do not happen, but media have a responsibility to report the news not to invent it]
Vote:May 29th, 2008 at 11:11 pm
I look at the frame you have captured, and i don’t believe there’s a child alive who could so convingingly fake such a sense of abject terror.
Vote:May 29th, 2008 at 11:11 pm
Well, well, well. How timely:
It – http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2008/05/thanks_to_judith_and_co.html#comment-450838
all – http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2008/05/thanks_to_judith_and_co.html#comment-450842
ties – http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2008/05/the_apologies.html#comment-451034
together!
Vote:May 29th, 2008 at 11:13 pm
So no Palestinians have ever been killed by Israelis?
What is your opinion on the media being shot at by Israeli soldiers documenting the atrocities comitted against the Palestinian people?
Before anyone has a go at me I am part Jewish.
[DPF: First of all the issue is whether it is acceptable for the media to invent news rather than report it. Secondly if media are shot, it depends on whether they were specifically targeted or "got in the way". Both are sad, but only one is a crime for which soliders should be court martialled]
Vote:May 29th, 2008 at 11:13 pm
Shows the need for freedom of the press but how even the press can be a bunch of propagandists, also shows why there are so many conspiracy theorists around with all these lies being spread by governments and even supposed independent journalists.
Vote:May 29th, 2008 at 11:22 pm
Paul, intimidating your enemy seems like a good idea to me. Quite why Israel is meant to give up its technological and military advantages to make it a “fair” fight. Fair fights are for school playgrounds not nation states and not defending your borders and your people.
The Arabs under the banner of Palestine are oppressed by their own hate filled leaders. After all if the masses didn’t have Israel to hate then 1. Israel could exist and 2. maybe they might ask how a minority living in some of the shittiest land in the middle east are doing so well and they’re not.
Terrorists and missile coming through and over the border – and you wonder why the borders get closed? Does anyone ask why those in the Gaza strip can’t get supplies from Egypt? Why is it the responsibility of Israel to not only look after itself but her enemies?
Look, I accept there are no real winners in the Middle East and that after decades (centuries?) of conflict neither side is going to be covered in glory but I do get sick of the suggestion that if somehow Israel was “nicer” then the arabs would all start holding hands and singing.
Fake atrocities and media manipulation have long been the tactic of various terrorist groups – and why would they care if they get busted? By then it has been lead story on every news channel in the world. Fact is being first in line. I note that the fake scandal didn’t lead the news tonight (or make it at all) but I am damn sure that the original “shooting” did. A number of times. David should be congratulated for publishing, not condemned.
Vote:May 29th, 2008 at 11:38 pm
Paul- you’re a dipshit (as always). It isn’t about Israel/ Palestine. Its about the cheating lying scum that pretend to be objective reporters of the news, and are responsible for so many deceitful politically motivated scams upon the gullible public. One day journalism may once again become a respected profession. Not for some time tho, as its infiltration by the propagandists of the left seems to be so complete its a situation that will take a few generations to correct.
In the meantime, anyone with a brain knows that they cannot be trusted a millimetre. From their vapid promotion of the left’s global warming fantasy to the denigration of George Bush and their fawning connivance at murdering totalitarian dictators like Fidel Castro, to their abject failure to subject Al Gore and his propaganda movie to even a skerrick of scrutiny, to the publicity they gave Nicky Hagar’s book attacking Don Brash while they buried Ian Wishart’s book on Helen Klark, (for just a few examples) the mainstream media have been exposed as partisan liars and propagandists for the cause of leftist politics.
..and if it hadn’t been for the internet, the bastards might still be getting away with it..
Vote:May 29th, 2008 at 11:48 pm
Hi DPF,
Israel does not need anyone else to make them look bad, they’ve got that angle covered by themselves. Not to go into the minutiae of middle-eastern conflict here, but a now apparently faked news report doesn’t change the fact that atrocities have been committed by both sides in the seemingly never-ending Arab-Israeli conflict. I haven’t seen the entire original footage but if it’s as you say it is then there is no other way to describe it than as an act of media manipulation. But in comparison to everything else happening over there right now, this is pretty small fry, especially given that this was news around about 2000, just as Israel was bombing southern Lebanon as a parting gift for 20-odd years of occupation.
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 12:00 am
“now apparently faked news report doesn’t change the fact that atrocities have been committed by both sides in the seemingly never-ending Arab-Israeli conflict”
No, it wouldn’t change it for your standard left wing Israeli hating fanatic. Anyone more objective and reasonable might acknowledge that such widespread blatant dishonesty means that every “fact” you’ve ever known about the ME conflict could be a complete fabrication.
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 12:06 am
“i don’t believe there’s a child alive who could… ”
Well true because they are probably no longer alive,
Vote:they would’ve already strapped a bomb to themselves, killed a bus load of Jews and, according to arabs are now martyrs
May 30th, 2008 at 12:13 am
I have never known what to make of this story. Al Dura is apparantly dead, so the question becomes who killed him and why. No-one disputes that many palestinian children have been killed by Israeli military, so the only thing that sets this killing apart was that it was caught on camera. There have been 100s of terror stricken palestinian children who have died in identical situations – given that no one claimed that AlDura was deliberately shot.
Nevertheless, the wider point of manufactured news is important.
I am sure DPF will be horrified to learn that his beloved Israelis went out of their way to manufacture images of celebrating palestinians in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 strikes.
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,158625,00.html
For those who can’t read German some Israeli stringers went down to East Jerusalem in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 and offered cakes and sweets in order to induce one fat palestinian lady and a bunch of kids to dance. The prooffered cake is clearly photographed.
” “Die Frau mit dem Kopftuch hat später gesagt, sie habe in die Kamera gejubelt, weil man ihr Kuchen versprochen hat”, ”
“The woman in the headscarf later said that she had celebrated to the camera because the man had promised to give her the cake.”
What sort of coldblooded person in the minutes after the strike on the WTC comes up with such a callous scheme?
Or had it been planned a sometime earlier?
[DPF: Any media who sets up a fake photo should be discredited. You had a good point until the wingnut conspiracy theory at the end about how the Jews really committed September 11. Do you have an English news report of what you claim? Considering the massive anti Israeli bias in western media, I can't imagine that there would not have been widespread reporting on the German article if it was confirmed]
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 12:17 am
If the Palestinians had no weapons, there would be no war.
If the Israelis had no weapons, there would be no Israel.
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 12:31 am
Red once again you join the debate with abuse, good on big bollocks, hope it makes you feel good.
Alas you are wrong, it is about how there are NO WINNERS in this whole sad sorry and very painful situation.
GPT, it’s not about making war fair, it’s about making the conditions where one doesn’t need to lob a bomb over into Israel out of hate/fear/frustration etc etc. Buy controlling the very most basic of existence and freedoms that the innocent (and there are millions of innocents) people of Palestine live by, the hours the power is on, the petrol for the cars blah blah blah, Israel is perpetuating the hatred of the very warped minds whom are driven to hare for their oppressors.
There are no “propagandists of the left”. How’s the latest revelations by Bush’s ex press secretary that Bush and his buddies were all fabricating a great war in Iraq. No freaking left wing conspiracy here sunshine. BTW how is the Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert getting on with his extortion and corruption case – oh yeah Mr Squeak Clean. Or should we say lying cheating bastard.
Red you are a sick and demented bastard, with more or less nothing but contempt for fellow humans. Global Warming, communist media blah blah blah, and who said that Kiwiblog wasn’t filled with extremists.
And once again you complete toss wad, I don’t hate Israel, I have spelled it out time and bloody time again, just because morons like you have neither the intellectual capacity to remember and or waste everyone’s time with your vile associationist theories. Just because one is critical of Israel and is of the left, does not bloody well mean I hate Israel. Sorry your penile little brain is incapable of working out even the most basic of concepts. The only thing that is a fabrication here is the assumption that you have a brain. You speak only of left wing conspiracy, you seemingly hate most people who aren’t of your kind, and you are always willing to stoop to the level of personal abuse and vitriol in the name of political debate. The only thing that isn’t in debate here sunshine is that quite simply you are a weak wimp who will stand behind the anonymity of the blogosphere calling names at those whom you dislike.
One more time big balls, for sake of really making you look like the wanker you are, THERE ARE NO WINNERS IN WAR.
There are no winners in the Palestinian – Israeli conflict. There are however many millions of innocents whom have been caught up in the violence of men. Innocent children (and this is for you tosser, ON BOTH SIDES) whom have had their innocence stolen by those who are hateful enough to pick up a weapon and point it at someone else just because their religion is different to theirs. How can a child grow up to be a functioning human being with compassion and love if they have seen the head of their friend blown off by a bullet from and enemy they have no beef with.
One supposedly doctored image does not take away from the hundreds of thousands of other images of suffering and pain that this conflict has placed upon the people of these lands.
To denigrate the pain and suffering of these people as you have done to score cheap “redbaiting” left wing conspiracy theories, is not the actions of a big man, or a decent human for that matter. If you’ve gone to bed tonight big balls all smug with yourself that you’ve “put Paul in his place”, I hope that one day you will see that what you have done is cheap and pathetic.
I make no apologies for this attack on you sunshine, for I will willingly debate the policies of the left with any sane person, but will not tolerate the slime that seethes from your internet connection, just because you think you are getting one up a lefty.
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 12:37 am
“How’s the latest revelations by Bush’s ex press secretary that Bush and his buddies were all fabricating a great war in Iraq.”
Just can’t stop lying can you? McLellan- “I do not believe he (Bush) or his White House deliberately or consciously sought to deceive the American people.”
“I make no apologies for this attack on you sunshine,”
Attack?? hahahah- all the impact of a falling feather. As for your apologies, I wouldn’t accept them if you offered them you deranged blathering commie propagandist.
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 12:40 am
“What sort of coldblooded person in the minutes after the strike on the WTC comes up with such a callous scheme?”
What kind of dim witted knuckle dragging neanderthal so faithfully believes in such unsubstantiated bullshit???
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 12:44 am
GerryPM, shut the f up.
Christ what is it with you people and this Israel under attack clap trap. Does a cheap dittie like that make it right does it. Well good one, I’m glad we’re reducing and resolving the worlds conflicts with snide remarks.
Have you ever looked at the dead mangled body of a child (of either side) in this mess and thought, ah if only we had bigger weapons.
How the f can anyone denigrate the mutilation and pain of so many children just because they want to be a Kiwiblog smart arse.
Do a google for “Dead Child Palestine” or “Dead Child Israel” and try to look into what was once an eye and think, yeah, I’ll jump on Kiwiblog tonight and be a smart arse. Go on do it. Bet you bloody can’t. Because that innocent child was someone’s son or daughter, a brother or sister. They are the most precious and the most vulnerable and you are all prepared to make a cheap remark at their expense.
This is one supposedly doctored image, how many hundred of false and doctored pictures did Bush parade to the world about so called WMDs which were all false (as vindicated by none other than the Pentagon), resulting the deaths of how many innocent men, women and children.
How pathetic.
You people are beyond belief and I am increasingly beginning to believe beyond compassion.
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 12:50 am
FUCK OFF Red, you are a contemptuous C**t.
I was not lying and once again you are willing to belittle the mutilated and dead with cheap shots. Because you don’t agree with what I was saying does not make what I was saying a lie. The imagery of mobile WMDs as paraded by Bush and his cohorts to the world were fabrications. This was admitted to by the Pentagon this year. This is not a lie and you may very well not like the message, but that too doesn’t mean it is a lie.
What is your point. I mean really what is the point of your existence? Is there an endorphin that is released by such demented extremists like yourself that gives a high for being so low on the human food chain.
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 12:56 am
Maybe you can tell me how you can escape being labeled a liar when you say this:
“How’s the latest revelations by Bush’s ex press secretary that Bush and his buddies were all fabricating a great war in Iraq.”
when said press secretary (McLelland) says this: “I do not believe he (Bush) or his White House deliberately or consciously sought to deceive the American people.”
Case closed I reckon. You’re a liar. No doubt.
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 1:10 am
“What kind of dim witted knuckle dragging neanderthal so faithfully believes in such unsubstantiated bullshit???”
Well, Der Speigel is probably the most influential current affairs magazine in the German speaking world and ARD-Politmagazin “Panorama” is one of the most highly thought of German current affairs TV programs.
So it depends on your definition of unsubstantiated. Naturally, it hasnt made it on to Fox news yet.
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 1:16 am
“Well, Der Speigel is probably the most influential current affairs magazine in the German speaking world and ARD-Politmagazin “Panorama” is one of the most highly thought of German current affairs TV programs.”
Left wing crap. Get real.
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 1:17 am
Der Speigel is probably the most influential current affairs magazine in the German speaking world and ARD-Politmagazin “Panorama” is one of the most highly thought of German current affairs TV programs.
And they ran the original al-Durra story how many times?
And they checked it themselves how many times?
And they trusted the French?
Looks like intra-European relationships have come a long way. It pays to have things in common of course!
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 1:21 am
Mr Hunter: The spiegel (my bad spelling above) article I linked was referring to the manufacturing of the images of celebrating palestinians in the immediate aftermath of 911 attacks not al-Durra.
Or if you prefer the Wikipedia summary of it
“Panorama
Annette Krüger Spitta of ARD’s (German public broadcasting) TV magazine Panorama claimed that while the footage was indeed correctly dated, reporters may have partly staged one of the scenes and that viewers should keep some distance from what is spread by journalists on images of conflict. The German weekly Der Spiegel repeated this news report and noted about the mistaken circulation that the footage was from 1991.[15]
The Panorama report from September 20, 2001 has Medium Professor Martin Löffelholz explaining that in the images you see jubilant Palestinian children and several adults but it is impossible to know if they are necessarily pleased about the attack reports; and he does not assume this and ignores the way it has been reported.
Krüger Spitta notes that inspection of the untelecasted complete tape shows the street around the celebration is quiet and a man in a white T-shirt is noticeable for inciting the children and is fetching new people again and again. The woman who is remembered for her cheering (e.g. Nowel Abdel Fatah[11]) stated afterwards that she was offered cake if she celebrates on camera, and that she was frightened when she saw the pictures on television and that she never expected it would be noticed to the USA.
Krüger Spitta expresses that it is impossible to know if these images — which were wildly sent worldwide under the title: Palestinians celebrate in Jerusalem — are truth or a production and that, as Proffesor Löffelholz says, in crises and war situations a due portion of distance should be kept from what is spread by journalists who sometime make errors.[18]
”
Errors is a very diplomatic word to use in this context.
Its amazing, the stringers were clumsy enough to take a close-up showing one of their team members thrusting the cake in the face of the woman.
[DPF: Thanks for that. Ignore previous comment about English language version wanted.
What is interesting in this case though is the photo was 100% iconic and used for years to motivate hatred and that a major French TV station actually tried to silence someone telling the truth about how it was faked]
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 1:35 am
NPOG
I was well aware of the point you were making and what it was about.
On the other hand you really do seem intent on missing my point. – which is that a ‘respected’ (meaning left-wing) magazine and documentary was very eager to plunge into investigating one type of ‘production’ – but not another.
Of course in one case the ‘production’ did lead to ‘emotive’ responses from Americans and others in the West – and we cannot have that.
Whereas the other ‘production’ did lead to ‘emotive’ responses from Palestinians and others in the Middle East – and their Western backers such as yourself. And that is absolutely OK
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 1:37 am
Cannot be stuffed waiting for the moderators any longer so……
Very timely report in light of the previous, recent discussions on this blog
It – http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2008/05/thanks_to_judith_and_co.html#comment-450838
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 1:40 am
Quote Scott McClelland
“The most powerful leader in the world had called upon me to speak on his behalf and help restore credibility that he lost amid the failure to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. So I stood at the White house briefing room podium in front of the glare of the klieg lights for the better part of two weeks and publicly exonerated two of the senior-most aides in the White House. There was one problem. It was not true. I had unknowingly passed along false information. And five of the highest ranking officials in the administration were involved in my doing so: Rove, Libby, the vice President, the President’s chief of staff, and the president himself”.
“Bush “managed the crisis in a way that almost guaranteed that the use of force would become the only feasible option.”
“top Bush aides had outlined a strategy for carefully orchestrating the coming campaign to aggressively sell the war. . . . In the permanent campaign era, it was all about manipulating sources of public opinion to the president’s advantage.”
Where the F are the lies now big bollox. You are a freak of contemptuous hate and seemingly incapable of any for of political discourse.
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 1:42 am
And I cannot wait for the moderators any longer…….
Very timely post considering recent blog discussions:
It – http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2008/05/thanks_to_judith_and_co.html#comment-450838
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 2:12 am
Mr Hunter, a quick search of Der Spiegel shows that did not make much use of the Al-Durra story one way or the other.
However in the context of topic of faking Middle East coverage the way the images of celebrating palestinians was manufactured is a far better case in point.
Another version
“However, US media did not widely circulate European media reports (by the renowned German weeklies Spiegel and Stern, by the German public TV magazine Panorama and by the Swedish Dagens Nyheter) that while the footage was indeed correctly dated, reporters had at least in part staged the scene. One woman was quoted saying that she was offered a piece of pie for celebrating in front of the camera. It is unclear whether it was explained to the woman what she was supposedly celebrating. [2] The Panorama TV report which analyzed the full video footage noted (translated):
A closer look at the complete film material which was not broadcast shows that the street around the celebration is quiet. Only in front of the camera there are a few excited children. The woman, who is remembered for her cheering, shortly afterwards moves along quietly. A man in a white T-shirt is conspicuous. He incites the children, and keeps fetching new people. The woman who just left the picture says today that she was offered cake if she celebrates on camera, and that she was appalled when she saw the pictures on television.”
So if Der Spiegel is not reporting on the alleged hoax of the al-Durra death – yet no one disputes he died….. Then the English media is equally silent on the demonstrated manufacturing of the 9/11 celebrating palestinians footage.
For me the frightening thing, is that this happened, because of the time difference at most one or two hours after the strikes on the WTC. The cold bloodness of coming up with such a tawdry scheme terrifies me.
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 2:44 am
Paul the lies are spewing from your own mouth.
There is no mention of fabrication regarding Iraq in anything you have presented. That you are unable to see this must mean you simply refuse to. Its called cognitive dissonance.
SMC may be of the opinion that Bush steered the crisis towards a single solution, but he doesnt say anything was fabricated.
He may think top Bush aides orchestrated a public campaign to boost support for the war, but again, he doesnt say anything was fabricated.
“I do not believe he (Bush) or his White House deliberately or consciously sought to deceive the American people.”
That pretty much says it all. You can infer anything you bloody well like from everything else the guy said, but all that is worthless when he refutes it with his own words.
“One supposedly doctored image does not take away from the hundreds of thousands of other images of suffering and pain that this conflict has placed upon the people of these lands.”
You arent even willing to accept the obvious. It WAS doctored.
From what I have seen, one side is willing to live in peace, they are the ones making concession after concession. One isnt, they are the ones calling for genocide of their opposition, breaking truces, deliberately targeting civilians. No amount of online lamenting of dead children will change this.
For the people of Palestine to live in peace they need to do one thing. Stop killing Israelis. Israel is not an expansionist nation. They dont want to take over the entire middle east. Territory they hold, they do so because of its strategic value. The Palestinians, by their actions and their rhetoric, want to wipe Israel off the map. They use the concessions by Israel as a base of attack.
The Palestinians will never stop attacking Israel, and Israel will never stop defending itself and retaliating.
Do you think, if the Palestinians stopped attacking Israel, that the Israelis would ever invade their territory?
Your problem is that you confuse might with aggression. It is like a school yard fight, and you have come along and assumed that the bigger kid must be to blame because the smaller kid got his ass kicked. It never occurs to you, that maybe the small kid started it. Maybe the small kid is always starting it.
Telling both kids that fighting is bad and giving both detention is unfair to the bigger kid. And it probably does nothing to stop the smaller kid from starting fights because the smaller kid sees the bigger kid getting punished.
Perhaps, the question you dont want to ask yourself is, if thousands of children are dying at the hands of merciless Israeli soldiers, why did they have to fake anything?
In a similar vein, if Bush was such a screw up in his early adult hood (note: it isn’t as if he killed a young girl while drunk driving, and in fact ran away from the scene of the accident without even trying to save her), why did Rather and his cohorts have to rely on an obvious fake document?
If Bush faked images to deliberately cause a war in Iraq, as you insist he did, why didn’t he also fake WMD’s in Iraq after the invasion?
You oscillate between considering the Bush leadership evil geniuses and bumbling fools. They were smart enough to do X, but stupid enough to do Y.
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 6:27 am
> Do you think, if the Palestinians stopped attacking Israel, that the Israelis would ever invade their territory?
Do you think part of the problem might be Israel’s continued illegal occupation of Palestine which the UN has condemned time and time again?
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 6:35 am
Probably true about the footage DPF, probably.
It’s also true that the US and the Iraeli state have slaughtered many thousands or Palestinians (those people who actually own/ed the land yes?).
And the Arab states who have perpetuated the cycle of slaughter.
Oh yes, and the British who just wanted to get rid of those pesky Jews after WW2, what better place than the Middle East.
Oh, don’t get me started on Middle East politics.
I saw a documentary recently that covered settlers in Israel/land they’d robbed off the Palestinians – one young man who had left home but had returned for a wedding summed things up nicely when he said something like ‘I don’t want to live here because you can see the hate in everyones eyes, its sad’
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 6:40 am
The Isrealis are fighting a propaganda war and they are losing it. The point is: the horror of the holacaust is not able to be used to justify a shoot first policy. The Isrealis did not attempt to live alongside their neighbours the Arabs. In NZ we have bent over backwards to co-exist with others especially Maori though Maori may voice differing opinions – there is still plenty of goodwill. Not so with Israel and their Arab neighbours. Too bad for Israel they are reaping what they have sown.
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 8:25 am
“If Bush faked images to deliberately cause a war in Iraq, as you insist he did, why didn’t he also fake WMD’s in Iraq after the invasion?”
Dead right, and why would he lie anyway when he would know that subsequent to the invasion, the lie would be exposed. You’re right when you use the term cognitive dissonance. I prefer the more traditional words obsessive and irrational. Whatever, its the left, and Paul in particular, and the way they always think and behave. The truth is always a casualty to their compulsive need to control, and they’ll say and do anything to destroy anyone who stands in the way of that obsession.
When one witnesses the venom with which Paul and other deranged leftists attack the truth, it is a warning of how necessary it is today to defend that fragile institution. The left are everywhere, they are in control, and that the truth becomes widely known is their biggest fear. They know it is the means to their defeat. So keep firing it at them.
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 8:55 am
Tim
Vote:They are losing the propoganda war precisely because of faked footage like this incident (and the numerous similar fakes or exaggerations that were published by a gullible anti-Israeli media during the 2006 Hezbollah war). Israel is quite happy to live alongside its neighbours in peace – indeed the two peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan have held up remarkably well because both Egypt and Jordan recognise the right of Israel to exist – something Hamas, Hezbollah and their ultimate backers and funders Iran refuse to do. Israel recognised and accepted the Peel Commission’s boundary proposal (largely accepted and promoted by the UN) wherein a Jewish state was formed in the region with the largest contiguous Jewish population (the coastal strip) and a Palestinian State on the West Bank incorporating the largest contiguous Palestinian Arab population. It was the PALESTINIANS and their Arab allies who not only utterly rejected the two state solution accepted by Israel (and all the UN members in 1948 including the Soviets) but decided to impose their own 1 Arab state solution at the point of a gun. Israel told the Arabs living in their new state they would honour their religious freedom to be and worship as Muslims and grant them equal status under Israeli law (all these commitments have been honoured) but 90% of the Arabs living in what became Israel chose to move west across the Jordan at the behest and encouragement of their leaders urged on by Iraq, Syria, Egypt and Jordan who assured them their migration was temporary until the Jews were driven into the Mediterranean. Trouble was the Jews fought back and won and the temporary migration became permanent. How is that Israel’s problem especially when they still will abide by a 2 State solution. Arafat was offered 97% of the land he wanted and he still spat the dummy and triggered another bloody Intefada. I wonder who is reaping what they sowed!
May 30th, 2008 at 8:59 am
Israel is quite happy to live alongside its neighbours in peace – yeah right.
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 9:02 am
Paul
Vote:You’re off your meds mate! Calm down, stay on topic.
The thread is about jurno’s not letting the facts get in the way of their demented little stories.
Sells footage for them, fucks up other peoples lives… a bit like drug dealers I suppose.
May 30th, 2008 at 9:14 am
Israel is quite happy to live alongside its neighbours in peace – yeah right.
Oh yes, we all remember the international outrage when Israel called for the destruction of Egypt and for Syria to be wipped from the map….
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 9:17 am
Redbaiter, re. your 12:00 am comment.
“No, it wouldn’t change it for your standard left wing Israeli hating fanatic. Anyone more objective and reasonable might acknowledge that such widespread blatant dishonesty means that every “fact” you’ve ever known about the ME conflict could be a complete fabrication.”
Having just got back from spending a year in that part of the world I would not call myself a lefty Israel hater. I’ve seen first hand what happens there, and the ensuing media reports, and I can safely say that pretty much every ‘fact’ as reported by the media out of Gaza, Israel, Syria and Lebanon is either partisan, distorted or an outright lie. Even if it’s a weather report.
The media gets it wrong – all the time. They also tell lies. They are a tool in the political implement drawer and are used as such. It’s bad I know, but is it really surprising?
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 9:26 am
“Israel is quite happy to live alongside its neighbours in peace – yeah right.” – Yes, see below.
Golan Heights ‘engagement’ – Israel were about to launch a nuclear strike but were talked down by the US.
AND
The Arab neighbours are similarly deranged.
I confess to being an equal opportunity bigot when it comes to the Mid East – the whole place is f*cked up. Considering that it is highly likely that that the roots of Judaeism and Islam are the same, why is religion the root cause of so much death and destruction. It’s quite clear religion is a bronze age superstition that causes more problems than it solves in a modern society that has the ability to take an eye for an eye to a nuclear level.
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 9:44 am
Both, as well as Christianity, are part of a progression of the “One God” religion rooted in Abraham. However, in the same way that the old versions of christianity decry the new schisms for being “wrong”, so too do Abraham’s followers decry the ‘wrongness’ of Christianity (which is filfillment of a judaic prophesy that the ‘organised’ church of Abraham deny), and so too do Christians decry the wrongness of Islam, which is based on the teachings of Abraham and Christ. Interestingly, Islam acknowledges both Judaism’s and Christianity’s teachings as ‘right’ (though it suggests Christ was a prophet and as much a son of god as all people are), and Christianity acknowledges the old testament, and Abrahamism (aka judaism) as ‘right’; there is no other religion that has a ‘progression’ of ‘rightness’ that I am aware of, unless Gaianism (my own belief) can be considered that – which I do not believe though some do.
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 9:45 am
Mr Noisy
I can attest to what you say. I spent 6 months in Israel.
The news was always wrong, it was quite surrealistic at times. I was suppose to living in an area of violent clashes at one stage.. never a bloody happened there. I saw youths pick up rocks when the cameras appeared, and put them down when the cameras were turned off.
Most Arabs living in the north get along fine with the Israeli’s. This is not true in the South (Palestinians).
The really really big difference between Israel and it’s neighbors for me (I spent time in those countries as well)…. is in Israel women are NOT treated like shit.
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 9:54 am
Reminds me of Gulf War 1. Bush senior’s regime faked the whole “Iraq army killing babies in hospitals” scenario. Before that, public opinion polls were 50/50 for and against the war. Not so afterwards.
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 10:45 am
Expat
Your proof of this nuclear strike allegation is…
The Israeli’s will not surrender the Golan Heights unless and until the Syrians sign the same peace agreement that has worked so well with Jordan and Egpyt. What is the likelihood of Damascus signing such an agreement? Limited while the regime remains n thrall to the Iranians and remain complicit in assassinations and meddling in Lebanon and while they continue to arm and fund Hezbollah. The Syrians have proven that when in control of the Golan Heights they used its strategic high ground to rain shells and rockets on innocent Israeli CIVILIAN targets.
I’m interested to know what part of the brief history of the current tensions you believe is not true since you make no effort to rebut or refute what is in fact the history of the region. Israel’s Arab neighbours have tried to destroy Israel 4 times. Ahmajinedad wants to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. Who has peaceful intent here.
Lance
Vote:Your account of ‘Pallywood’ staging of rioting youths accords with eyewitness accounts of several friends who spent time in Israel.
May 30th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
I cannot wait for someone to say (i like Israelies,BUT hitler was right) or that classic (some of my best friends are killers belonging to hamas, they are freedom fighters????) or that other great saying (these are only primative rockets)till they kill your family
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
NPOG
Normally I would ignore a threadjack – especially given your little ‘grassy knoll’ moment at the end. However, for the sake of argument…….
Or if you prefer the Wikipedia summary of it
Did you actually read that reference? I ask because the following raises some interesting points that do not seem to support your accusation (implication) that it was a piece of street theatre produced by Israeli media stringers.
First of all, the Wikipedia piece notes that none other than Der Spiegel first tried to discredit the video by claiming that it was simply stock footage from the Gulf War I. This was disproved later – but not before it became a bit of an urban legend.
In other words Der Spiegel already had it’s take on the story – that this sort of video was being peddled by other Western Media as a way of stirring up hatred and that ‘most’ people in the Middle East were really very sympathetic towards the victims of the 9/11 attacks and that it must be a fake – and their first attempt at proving this turned out itself to be false (a lie?).
Second, the woman at the centre of it – Nowel Abdel Fatah – is not just caught on video, but actually gave a quote:
Given the way things turned out – e.g. A very pissed off American public – I’m not surprised that she later claimed she only danced for cake. But she does not deny the quote – did she really say that for cake too? Did her daughter have the same motivation? Really?
Third, the piece notes …..the traditional gesture of handing out sweets…... You mean like cakes? Such a tradition then means that the idea of a man proffering cake may not be all that surprising.
Fourth, there does not seem to be anything (at least in Wikipedia) to suggest that the man (men) ‘inciting’ this incident were Israeli. I could not access the English translation of this article so am unsure of what proof (as opposed to assertion) you have on this point.
What should be kept in mind are the following points:
That incidents like these actually did occur in numerous places at the time – perhaps most notably in parts of Britain – but were not all captured on video. So the idea that this event needed to be ‘manufactured’ by the Israelis is strange to say the least.
Moreover, as the 1991 footage demonstrated, Palestinians have celebrated the destruction of their perceived enemies in the past with dancing, sweets being distributed, guns fired in the air and so forth – even when it made no sense, as with Saddam’s invasion of another Muslim country. But then of course Saddam was funding suicide missions in Palestine so was regarded as a bit of a hero at the time. Bad move on their part as other Muslim nations that had supported them got very pissed off – notably the Kuwaitis.
That the quote given by Ms Fatah is hardly exceptional. I’ve seen numerous, similar quotes on video and in Arab medai news sites. Again, given those general and widespread attitudes, it seems weak to claim that she had to be given an incentive to say such a thing.
Finally, on many occasions Palestinian activists have actually invited children and other ordinary members of the Palestinian public to join in ‘spontaneous protests’ (…..fetching new people again and again….) as required for political propaganda.
Vote:Who is to say that they did not do so on this occasion – and that all the aftermath, the ….that she was frightened when she saw the pictures on television…..” was simply more spin when the organisers realised that this piece of agitprop might backfire badly – as it did in 1991.
May 30th, 2008 at 2:23 pm
Oh well, don’t feel sorry for the reporter…; he can always still get a job at TVNZ.
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
Thank you for posting this, DPF. Israel is merely the 1930′s Jew among the community of nations today. Anything goes, where demonising it is concerned. It is disturbing just how few people in positions where they can make a difference one way or the other, regard truth as more important than THIS particular prejudice.
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 5:05 pm
Kimble
“You arent even willing to accept the obvious. It WAS doctored”
thank you for making my point. those aerial photos of trucks that were supposedly mobile WMD labs, that apparently were the scurge of the Israeli people, were KNOWN to not be the case. There were troops in on the ground whom had been through those trucks whom all reported back to their superiors in the Pentagon that these were empty trucks.
But oh no to Bush and the UN Security Council, they were mobile WMD labs. They lied and they have the blood of tens of thousands of innocent people for such crimes against humanity.
These are the facts, they are verified by the Pentagon, there is no denial that this happened, and you all have your knickers in a twist over one supposedly doctored image. Oh yeah balance people.
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 9:14 pm
Paul
you’re full of shit
Vote:May 30th, 2008 at 10:07 pm
NPOG
Just a couple more points.
Given the degree to which left-wingers like yourself constantly tell us that ‘The West’ is feared and loathed throughout the Middle East, it seems quite a spin to then claim that hate-filled statements and dances celebrating the death of Westerners have been set up by Israelis.
If your prior claims were true then such celebrations would be rationally expected – and in other arguments on other forums they have been used as examples of exactly that.
The image of dancing Palestinians might have been ‘flashed around the world’, but is nowhere near as iconic as the images of planes flying into buildings and people jumping off the WTC. One hardly needed to manufacture such a scene of dancing to enrage a large chunk of the West. And it certainly is nowhere near as iconic an image of the Middle East as that still frame from the video of el Durra.
But the main point that needs to be made – again – and again – is not that a media event was manufactured, not that it’s Jews vs Arabs, but the fact that one piece of agitprop was swallowed whole by the likes of Der Speigel, with none of the scepticism and hard questions expected – while the other was subjected from the first moment to exactly such a critique.
And the further point is that this seems to be the motif of the Western media dating at least from the days of the Vietnam war. I gave examples of exactly the same approach taken by the Western Media in that war – http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2008/05/the_apologies.html#comment-451142.
Those examples, and there are others, where Western reporters, decades later when it no longer mattered to the dead, acknowledge that they ignored Vietnamese communist atrocities and ignored decent US actions because those weren’t news.
I don’t think this is some silly matter of journalists being in the bag for communism – but is yet another example of the way that any group that squawks about it being the “voice of the people” or ‘representative of the people” or the oppressed or whatever – has been given instant cover by the Western media – and certainly by Western leftists.
This was the case with the Vietnamese communists, which at least is understandable given they believed the same things – as it was with the Khmer Rouge, who were merely going “to fight against feudal privileges and social inequities.”
It was the case with Mugabe, and the Palestinians, and now the head-hackers in Iraq – with Sonic’s crack the other day about ‘the same government that has to be protected from it’s own people by 150,000 US troops (plus 50,000 “private contractors”)’, being merely the crudest, recent example of this sly, implicit support for the usual cast of anti-democratic thugs.
Given the arc of this narrative it may be that some time in 2009, having aided a President Obama to power, the New York Times will herald the rapid withdrawl of troops from Iraq with a banner headline:
“Iraq Without Americans: For Most, a Better Life.
Vote:May 31st, 2008 at 7:15 pm
It seems some have rather short memories, Israel would always
Vote:do the right thing, like trying to steal our passports.
And the worst part of that was a bloody kiwi helped them, then he ran off to Israel.
Want to do the right thing Israel, hand that traitor back.
Of course there are some in NZ who believe we owe other countries our passports etc.
A question, those kiwis who go to Israel to do military training
under that Mahal scheme, do they swear allegiance to Israel ?
June 1st, 2008 at 10:02 am
Two Palestinian mothers are sitting in a cafe chatting over a pint of goat’s milk. The older of the two mothers pulls her bag out, and starts flipping through photos and they start reminiscing. “This is my oldest son, Mohammed. He was 24 years old.”
“Yes, I remember him as a baby,” says the younger mother, cheerfully.
“He’s a martyr now, though”, the older mother confides. “Praise be to Allah”, says the younger mother.
“And this is my second son Kalid. He was 21 years old.” “Oh, I remember him”, says the younger mother happily. “He had such curly hair when he was boy.” “He’s a martyr, too”, says older mother quietly.
“Praise be to Allah,” says the younger mother.
“And this is my third son, my baby. My beautiful Ahmed. He was eighteen years old”, the older mother whispers.”Yes,” says the younger mother enthusiastically, “I remember when he first started school.”
“He is a martyr, also”, says older mother, with tears in her eyes.
After a pause and a deep sigh, the younger Palestinian mother looks wistfully at the photographs and says,
Vote:“How quickly they blow up”
June 1st, 2008 at 10:35 am
One very good thing about publishing this book at this time is that it makes the US public and media much less likely to accept without question any White House spin about Iran and WMD. That is after all what the release of the NIE was all about.
Because of the relationships between Iran and other countries esp its ME neighbours, Russia and China; there is a huge consequent risk to the security of Israel and the US forces in Iraq, in the event of an Iran adventure. I can therefore only applaud the publication as another step in the prevention of the Israel/neocon backed agitation to strike Iran before Bush leaves office. Now if only McCain wasn’t totally nuts I’d be happy.
Patrick, imagine if you lived in such a hopeless situation that the only way to respond was to perform suicide bombings. D’ya think they do it because they enjoy it?
Vote:June 1st, 2008 at 11:28 am
Reid, Has it every occurred to them to stop, what do you believe Israel would do to them if they stopped?
Vote:As Gerry earlier said: If the Palestinians put down their weapons tomorrow, there would be no war. If the Israelis put down their weapons tomorrow, there would be no Israel.
There will never be any hope for any society that teaches their children hate?
June 1st, 2008 at 11:51 am
If the Palestinians put down their weapons tomorrow, there would be no war. If the Israelis put down their weapons tomorrow, there would be no Israel.
There is no war right now. There is a very large and occasionally unruly prison population. They are not a threat to Israel’s existence.
Vote:June 1st, 2008 at 12:11 pm
Patrick, you’re right in saying the logical thing to do is stop but I think this situation got beyond logic decades ago. The emotional trauma suffered by both sides has entrenched the attitudes in the same way that Ireland’s troubles were entrenched.
I have no doubt there are powerful and wicked people inside both societies who aggravate the conflict by causing atrocities designed to wreck the forces of compromise whenever a fragile peace looks likely to break out. Perhaps one effective thing to do would be for the majorities in both societies to turn against, expose and remove such people from their positions. Unfortunately it’s easier said than done since many of those people are deeply ensconced within the official and unofficial power structures of said societies.
I don’t think it’s correct to view this as something only the Palestinians should do. Israel is also guilty of inflicting more than its share toward establishing this sorry state of affairs. Secondly I don’t think it’s realistic to treat either side like some amorphous blob whereby all the people share exactly the same view and all are equally culpable. It seems to me that as often happens, the root cause of this issue is a result of actions taken by a relatively small group of people, and the rest of the population on both sides bear the brunt of those. Unfortunately over decades the result of this has been that the majority of the population on both sides now share similar attitudes to those of that small group. Consequently they are unlikely to turn against them. How that can be turned around I have no idea, but one thing I know for sure is that it’s not a problem caused or perpetuated by only one of the sides.
Vote: