The ten minute Kahui acquittal
Well it was a six week trial and it took the jury only ten minutes to find Chris Kahui not guilty.
I am not surprised. Even before the trial started the case seemed to lack the beyond reasonable doubt element to it.
And informed sources who actually sat through the entire six weeks were adamant the verdict would be not guilty.
The Police have made it clear they will not be charging anyone else, so the sad thing is the killer of the twins has got away with it – whoever they may be.
Having a suspicious nature, and remembering how the family refused to co-operate with the Police, I do wonder whether there was a deliberate strategy to have both parents blame each other – knowing that would generate reasonable doubt for both.
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Tags: Chris Kahui
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:46 am
So essentially murder by persons unknown?
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:51 am
Unfortunately we’ve created an environment that financially encourages people like her to have children!!
I’m told she had previously had two of her other children taken from her by Cyfs
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:52 am
The police look very bad with regard to this. They have either failed to prosecute the correct person, or failed to construct a solid case against the accused. This seems to be far to often the case in NZ these days.
If as you suggest there has been collusion amongst the family, I have grave doubts about the moral compass of some parts of this country. No amount of Welfare For Families or free bus passes can redress the complete abandonment of personal responsibility.
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:57 am
This is disgusting and I’m bloody livid that the dumb keystone cops allowed the murdering low life Kahui scum family time to concoct a story after the discovery of the two dead babies. The culturally sensitive lunkhead cops wouldn’t sit back and allow them time to make up a fairy tale alibi if they were white. The keystone’s can muster and dispatch half a dozen moronic idiots immediately to arrest a man for flicking his toddler’s ear lobes! In this tragic case they can’t be bothered organising an early intervention investigation that was needed. Why did they not carpet arrest and detain until the culprit coughed up the filthy name that slaughtered two babies. What a sad indictment for the totally incompetent law authorities. The keystones are bleating on about the lack of co-operation from the family but it was their ineptitude that allowed the homicidal maniacs time to cover their fetid arses! Who can respect such procedure and to make matters worse, the dumb arse cops are going to allow the perpetrators of this barbaric attack to get off scoff free! What message does this send to the criminal low life fraternity? This scum father is guilty and it is the fault of a thicko police force that this pig baby killer is laughing at you!
Who in there right mind can have any confidence in the dangerous and dysfunctional New Zealand keystone police.
This Nation is one SICK COUNTRY!!
RIP kids.
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:59 am
Outrageous.
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:01 am
Seems like two suspects and insufficient evidence to ‘nail’ one or the other. Police at the time were under enomous public and political pressure to ‘crack’ the case. If there was no ‘closure’ the thing would have festered on for ever. Who to charge? Perverted logic for a host of reasons determined this.
Justification for a trial in the circumstances? Crown Law Prosecution guidelines Paragraph 3.3.2 include examples of factors to be taken into account including “the effect of non-prosecution on public opnion” (at least as at March 1997).
Crown Law does not have its guidelines on its web site but the matter was considered by the Law Commission, its 1997 report containing extracts of the guidelines being at:
http://www.lawcom.govt.nz/ProjectPreliminaryPaper.aspx?ProjectID=73
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:02 am
Fucking appaling is the correct turn of phrase, and I don’t apologise for uttering it.
The Police and the agencies involved treated this disgusting family with kid gloves from day one in case anyone was culturally offended.
Well, fuck cultural sensitivities. This ‘incident’ highlights the problem with the ‘beneficiary culture’ – no moral or ethical standards, no drive to achieve, no role models, no stimulus to change.
And a public service too afraid to get to the heart of the matter in case they are pillioried by the politicians.
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:27 am
Correction;
The twin’s mother has had seven children – two were in care and three live with two different fathers in Hawkes Bay. The children have not seen her for years.The Kahui family, living in two state homes, were receiving an estimated $108,548 p.a in benefits.
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:31 am
Jesus, thats foul.
Does that family receive the tax cuts and cheap housing and working for families support (because I’m sure the benes for that kick in at some ridiculously low level of ‘employmemt/seeking employment’) and other ancilliary handouts PLUS the bene? (oh I forgot – a new heatpump)
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:38 am
D4J nails it.
They used the “cultural sensitivity” time to get themselves all off the hook.
Now the blueprint of getting away with murder.
Another proud kiwi moment.
Sterilise them all.
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:38 am
How is it the police can re prosecute David Bain’s case – a case that is so old that some of the witnesses have since died, but they can’t affect an outcome in a case that is still very much in the minds of every New Zealander.
Those babies deserve justice.
We can stuff around bleating on about smacking, and yet here is a family that has literally been able to get away with murder!
And how come they cannot be charged with failing to provide the necessities of life, or adequate supervision – going to Macdonald’s for breakfast when you are suppose to be taking critically ill babies to hospital, should result in a police prosecution.
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:40 am
peterwn – the prosecution guidelines are available on the Crown Law website:
http://www.crownlaw.govt.nz/artman/docs/article_159.asp
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:44 am
Murray
“Sterilise them all”
Great idea, there might not be much we can do with this current generation but we can sure stop this intergenerational low life scum from reproducing.
Personally I would encourage the like of Maxina King and Kahui to be sterilized by offering a one off payment of $30,000 (per person) and a guaranteed benefit for life, I would also offer cheap booze and free drugs in the hope that they kill themselves as soon as possible.
While the initial costs might be high the overall savings in the long run will be huge.
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:45 am
Firstly let’s not blame ‘the Nation’ or ‘benefits’ for this. 99.999% of people on benefits don’t murder their children and the outrage over the deaths of the twins only proves how strongly people in this Nation feel about child abuse.
Sure the police made a mess of the investigation and the trial but at the end of the day the police aren’t responsible for killing the twins and so the finger of blame needs to be pointed back at the Kahui family.
Someone in that family killed the twins and it seems likely that everyone in that family knows who it was. It is time someone came forward and told the truth to at least give the twins some small justice.
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:45 am
democracymum
“How is it the police can re prosecute David Bain’s case”
Simple, Bain is as guilty as sin!
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:57 am
democracymum – I agree, at least a charge of ‘not providing adequate care’ or ‘not providing the necessities of life’ against the mother would bring some small justice.
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:58 am
Ah, the Standard trolls have been released from their box – it must be public servant hours.
The benficiary culture, with no moral or ethical standards, no drive to achieve, no role models, no stimulus to change does beget behaviour such as this
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:00 am
Of course, if the police did prosecute Macsyna, all Chris has to do is confess on the stand – he couldn’t be prosecuted again. We’d still not know who did it.
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:11 am
It’s the entire family of oxygen thieves that’s the problem here.
They closed ranks, and in this PC utopia… that’s it, nothing else can be done.
Then they committed the obscenity of going to church after the trial to give thanks. How dare they stain the name of Christianity with such self serving hypocrisy.
These people really piss me off!
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:26 am
Many a time I cringe at D4J posts. This time he is speaking for me. He hit the nail on the head with his criticism of the Police for they way they stood back and gave the family the breathing space needed to muddy the waters sufficiently so no jury could possibly convict.
We put so called cultural sensitivity ahead of the lives of two dead babies.
I am angry.
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:29 am
Now that this appalling verdict has been given the focus needs to fall on the police and dare I say it the government.
It is clear that the police fucked up big time and it is abundantly clear that this type of failure is going to be something that we will see a lot more of in the next few years.
Make no mistake, the reason this trail failed to obtain the correct verdict is because of the PC attitude and approach of the Police (under the direction of the government), in the last few weeks we have seen some of our greatest cops leave the force out of sheer frustration, we cannot afford to lose the likes of Grimshaw in Auckland and Quinn in Wellington, all we are left with are people like the fool who led the Kahui inquiry, cops who are more worried about being PC than catching the killer/killers of two innocent kids.
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:39 am
A drive-by shooting in Wanganui resulted in all participants being charged with murder…surely a charge against the whole family for not providing the necessities of life could have resulted in the culprit being yielded to the police?
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:40 am
I blame Sue Bradford. Clearly the anti-smacking bill didn’t come in early enough. We all know that how effective the bill is in preventing violence against our children, so, this is really all Sue Bradford’s fault for being too slow to introduce the bill.
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:49 am
As I suspected: a suicide pact between the twins.
And the man who ended his mother’s agony with an overdose of morphine is a murderer.
What have we come to?
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:09 am
Both those scum bag parents will continue to breed and we will be payign for them for the rest of their lives. Doesn’t double jeopardy mean that Chris Kahui now cannot be charged with murder even if he admitted it?
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:10 am
I’m with Pita. The Police must surely have been able to narrow it down to a small group who could have potentially been the offender … Chris Kahui, Macsyna King and possible 1 or 2 others. If that group want to hang tough and have an organised “oath of silence” then why not charge the group of them with murder and/or being accessories to murder. Then let’s see how strongly they believe in not talking.
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:11 am
This case was lost in the first few weeks after the murders, while the police sat on their hands. They waited until the Labour MPs (publicly) gave them the go-ahead to begin investigations – long after the “tight twelve”‘s alibis were constructed.
This miscarriage is the result of the corrupt cooperation of the NZ Police and the NZ Labour Party.
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:16 am
I might be wrong but I predict that King and Kahui will have some sort of miraculous reconciliation over the next few weeks, this way that the family celebrated last night indicated that not the innocence of Kahui but more the fact that he got away with it.
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:18 am
To be fair, even if Chris Kahui did it and effectively “got off” yesterday he only got off from his legal problems. Someone has to live with this crime for the rest of their lives and even if I think these people are low-lifes with twisted morality and values it’s still got to mess your mind up. I can’t see how anyone, even scum, could live easily with this weighing on what little conscience they still have.
What I’d like to hear is what leaders in the Maori community are going to do about their people’s simply shocking levels of violence and family breakdown. Peter Sharples was closely involved with this case when it first happened, and I’m prepared to believe he was personally shocked at the attitudes and behaviours he saw in the family. But Maori seem unable to take effective action as a community to sort this out. Lots of hui. Lots of talk. Emotive oratory. No action. Meanwhile the vast majority of violent offenders appearing in our courts are Maori or PI.
Maori & PI are happy to accept cultural generalisations like “Polynesians are great athletes, who’re bigger and stronger than Europeans”. But they don’t have the balls to confront the negative cultural aspects like “Polynesians are violent thugs”.
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:21 am
Don’t be so hard on the police – they have to go so carefully not because of the media but because of the lawyer dominated rules on process means that otherwise it will be thrown out in court. It is the lawyers who have hi-jacked justice in the name of ‘fairness’ when they are just playing games. They have taken the judge out of play in providing any meaningful direction. This is the sort of case where an inquisitorial system may look better – compelling some examintaion of witnesses and family – and charging the whole damn dysfunctional family with obstruction of justice if they try and play closed shop.
No justice for those kids – how can the killer walk without conscience among us?
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:30 am
The one person who does deserve to be grilled by the media and the public in all of this (aside from the useless cop who led the investigation) is Pita Sharples.
He (Sharples) is the one who “negotiated” the grieving period for this family, since when do the NZ police negotiate access to murdering scum, Sharples has blood on his hands and he should resign immediately.
He won’t of course and the media will not call him to account for one reason only….he is Maori, imagine the shit fight that would have occurred had this not been a Maori family and a white MP had intervened to negotiate a grieving period for that family
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:31 am
The whole case from start to finish was one big politically correct experiment. “Closing the criminal gaps” if you will.
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:55 am
“Don’t be to hard on police”
Yeah right pkiwi. I have watched many falsely accused men in the dock go down for several years on the balance of probabilities, based on dubious circumstantial evidence administered by many unscrupulous Crown Law procedures. The keystone cops need a leader, as they’re a bunch of headless chickens at present. The police are politically hen –pecked and in this sad K case, they were scared shitless too act. Just like the incident where a psycho Christchurch cop blasted a young man to death, they disgracefully let the body lay on the road over night so a Maori bullshit doctor could cast some stupid spell. Talk about the lack of dignity for the deceased. Add insults to injury, blue sisterhood despicable puppets, you bustards are culturally sensitive corrupt mongrels. Come down hard on the vulnerable you bully –gutless wonders. The truth is police are rotten to the core. I couldn’t give a hoot about your constant overzealous tactics you use against me, as you like easy prey.
Now for the huge army of criminal gravy train parasitic defence lawyers. Yuck they make me vomit. The simple fact is that the legal profession is virtually unregulated. This is true of any profession that professes to regulate itself, but the legal establishment is in the best position, because it helps to make the laws it dispenses and then regulates its own members. Lawyers make brilliant politicians, because their legal training has schooled them in dealing in factual inexactitudes.
Our justice system is in the same shambolic condition as our dreadful government. Helen Klark’s absolute power has destroyed many aspects of a society that people took for granted. Our courtrooms are devoid of natural justice and how can a country sit back and allow the authorities shut the chapter on another unsolved hideous murder. As a Nation we should demand justice for our children.
Shame on you Kahui filth !! Shame on you justice system !! What a disgrace!!
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:59 am
I understand Mr Kahui will be seeking custody of their remaining child who somehow managed not to get beaten to death, Shayne. One assumes the mother will also. Currently the poor kid is in Child,Youth and family care. I wonder if either parent will get custody? I wonder how long it will be before Shayne ends up coming into hospital with injuries caused by “person or persons unknown?”
May 23rd, 2008 at 11:30 am
Expat: “The Police and the agencies involved treated this disgusting family with kid gloves from day one in case anyone was culturally offended.”
The police must do their investigation within the rule of law, and that does not include means such as the rack or thumbscrew or North Korea type tricks. There are also limited sanctions under law concerning the degree to which witnesses and potential witnesses are required to cooperate with an investigation. The police without doubt would have used every available legal means including bugs and phonetaps.
In this sort of case it is not surprising when the police despite best efforts just cannot find a key piece of evidence to clinch a conviction. This would have been a major disappointment to the officers involved and to the Commissioner.
Hence the presentation of a load of rubbish in a last ditch attempt to con a guilty verdict out of the jury. With such a quick deliberation it would not be a surprise is a juror had a law degree or part of one (but not in practice), and with the assistance of the Judge’s memorandum of the law initially handed to jurors, identified key issues early on.
May 23rd, 2008 at 11:34 am
Yeah peterwn, a lawyer on the jury and remember your fate is in the hands of 12 people not smart enough to get out of jury duty. FYI police still administer the bash to certain suspects,ouch,smack,depending on what colour you are and if you have Banjo gang connections.
May 23rd, 2008 at 11:38 am
d4j said:
“Now for the huge army of criminal gravy train parasitic defence lawyers. Yuck they make me vomit. The simple fact is that the legal profession is virtually unregulated. This is true of any profession that professes to regulate itself, but the legal establishment is in the best position, because it helps to make the laws it dispenses and then regulates its own members. Lawyers make brilliant politicians, because their legal training has schooled them in dealing in factual inexactitudes.”
D4J, speaking as a defence lawyer myself, you have got this wrong. Being a defence lawyer is not a gravy train by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, the legal profession is pulling out of criminal defence work in record numbers because the income is so much lower than general legal work. Usually we get only one third to one half of the normal charge out rate of a normal law firm. Often we make a loss on cases, although I know you won’t believe that.
Currently, criminal defence lawyers of any sort make up about 9% of the legal profession. At the beginning of the decade it was about 15% of the profession. 30% of Defence lawyers, or just under 3% of the entire legal profession, do roughly 70% of all criminal cases. With 10,000 lawyers in the country (a number that surprised me when I found out) that means that under 300 people are responsible for providing the bulk of criminal defence work in the country. And we are not well paid. We leave the big money to the corporate lawyers and the civil litigators.
And we don’t get consulted on the laws that apply because the Justice Department takes the veiw that we are defence lawyers and therefore can’t be trusted! Well, I suppose our reputation, built up by many years of defending unpopular people like David Dougherty, Aaron Farmer, Arthur Allen Thomas, Tania Vini, Macushla Fuataha, both 14, and 15 year-old Lucy Akatere and… oh wait, all of those people served prison time despite being innocent of any offence. Though if you add in the likes of Rex Haig, David Bain, Peter Ellis, John Barlow and so forth, the justice system starts to have some cracks in it.
But of course we forget that a person is innocent until proven guilty, because the Police don’t charge innocent people, do they? Or that we have the right to remain silent, which is a right the Kahui family chose to exercise, only to be criticised by Police, Media and Public for doing. And we forget that a jury of 12 people have sat for 6 weeks listening to the evidence and found Kahui not guilty, while those commenting on this blog, on radio and in private have sat through 6 weeks of newspaper summaries and 1 minute tv news summaries and so are thoroughly qualified to comment on the case. We all have the right to silence, not just the Kahui family. We all have the right to defend our case in court, not just the Kahui family. We all have the right to be judged by a jury of our peers, not just the Kahui family. If we criticise them for exercising this right, or the jury system for coming up with ‘unpopular’ verdicts then would you be willing to simply accept that if a person is charged they should be convicted? Or that we should be required to incriminate ourselves in order that the Police have an easier job of it? Or that we should not be allowed access to a defence lawyer? I assure you all that the first thing any of you will do if the Police come knocking with some accusations, whether false or not, is call a defence lawyer.
Or will you just accept that they must be right and plead guilty?
For sure have an opinion on the system, but the evidence was heard by a jury and they acquited the man. Give them some credit for performing their duty and doing it according to their conscience.
If Chris Kahui is not guilty of the murders, then someone else must be. It is a tragedy that the Police will not go past their own view and re-open the investigation. But the Police will stick to their view that it is Chris Kahui and that he has got away with murder, so sadly no-one will now ever be held accountable.
May 23rd, 2008 at 11:51 am
You know I heard that the Greens had the nerve to call this site “hard-right”
Reading the above comments just shows how wrong they were.
I like Murrays “Sterilise them all”
Still I did prefer it in the original German.
May 23rd, 2008 at 11:55 am
Well thats a surprise, a lawyer defending the system.
The first thing that people need to remember about our legal system is that Justice is a by product and has nothing to do with 90% of all cases.
May 23rd, 2008 at 11:55 am
FES, Your 11.28 is well said.
Indeed it is likely that after this budget there will be even less people undertaking or accepting legal aid assignments.
This is because the government while increasing remuneration rates has left them at a level which is a disincentive to undertake such work. The evidence is there already with the massive numbers of self represented litigants now appearing in the criminal or civil courts.
May 23rd, 2008 at 11:58 am
Hi F E Smith,
I agree it’s extremely sad that no one is to be held responsible for this disgusting act.
Can you explain to me why police did not charge everybody that was at the household when the hideous crime was committed under that provision in the law they use when gangs shut up shop on homicides. Why did cops and crown prosecutors not use this procedure?
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:02 pm
So now no-one has the right to silence? or only Brown people do not have it?
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:06 pm
Good one sonic – silence or baby blood?
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:07 pm
I always find it instructive that when police officers are ever charged with anything the first thing they invoke is their right to silence (Rickards et al)
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:26 pm
Sonic, I’d certainly defend the right to silence. But, at the same time, if you have a small group who clearly can resolve a case, but who all invoke their right to silence, then perhaps the Police need to charge them all collectively. After all, at that point they’ve entered into a conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:28 pm
Big Bruv: Sadly the system is the best we have and probably the best we will get. I am no fan of it and in no way do I say that justice is always, or even usually done. In fact, I usually call it a legal system, rather than a justice system. But the rights that we ordinary citizens (that is, not police or labour party members) have are the result of hundreds of years of efforts by, funnily enough, defence lawyers to ensure that the State does not abuse the overwhelming power that it holds.
There is still a lot of wrongful prosecution/conviction and I have seen innocent people go to prison. Don’t forget that the jury system only deals with a small fraction of criminal cases in the country. It gets worse when you are in the Summary (judge alone) jurisdiction. The miscarriages of justice in that jurisdiction are almost daily.
D4J: Sometimes the Police do just charge everyone and let them fight out among themselves who it was (we call this a cut-throat defence). The is that the Police often focus on one person and then look for the evidence that they think will convict that person. This means that they automatically exclude/ignore any evidence that points to anyone else. This is becoming apparent in the Scott Watson case, where any and all sightings of the mystery yacht were discounted by the police, who reckon it doesn’t exist.
I suspect that Macsyna King was not charged because of two reasons: firstly, she is a woman. The police are notoriously reluctant to charge women when there is a convenient man to charge. That doesn’t sound good, but I suspect you will know of some cases where this has happened as well. It is not uncommon. Secondly, they had Macsyna King saying that she was not in the house, or even the suburb, when the initial pathology report said that the twins would have been injured. By the time it became apparent that she could have been back at the house and/or the injuries could have been done earlier than first thought they had already charged Chris Kahui- and the police almost never back down once they have charged someone! Of course, then the detective got so busy he couldn’t re-interview her, so there was little chance of her being charged jointly with him, which would have made more sense.
As always, it is a combination of factors. But I am not surprised at the verdict, especially in light of DPF’s comments above.
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:30 pm
Virtualmark, there have been mutterings but I’ve never seen any evidence that any of the family knew who was really guilty.
If the police thought they did they could prosecute them, the’ve not.
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:34 pm
Sonic.. go and troll somewhere else
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:36 pm
F E Smith – yes this case and the Watson case have something in common, that is the totally tunnel vision mentality adopted by incompetent keystone cops. Guilty man walks free and guilty man behind bars? Anybody seen a yacht or a hammer dripping with babies blood.
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:38 pm
Lance, I’m just making my points, if you don’t like it just don’t read them.
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:42 pm
Sonic, I figure none of us are close enough to it to know for sure if the Police had enough to charge the broader group (even with a lesser charge than murder). But I’d be amazed if the family don’t know more than the information that was presented in Court.
I resent paying taxes to support a family whose values and behaviours are at such odds with the general Kiwi society.
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:44 pm
F E Smith: “It is a tragedy that the Police will not go past their own view and re-open the investigation. But the Police will stick to their view that it is Chris Kahui and that he has got away with murder, so sadly no-one will now ever be held accountable.”
Police are “Servants of the Crown”and are accountable to the law subject to their own “In house” or so called “Disciplinary Tribunal Investigations”.
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:50 pm
Virtualmark, luckily enough we live in a society that does not give you the right to dictate what values people must have before they get the same rights as you and me.
I also find it sad that you think it’s fine to sit in judgement over a group of you have never met, basing your judgement on stereotypes and newspaper tittle-tattle.
I wonder if you would be so quick to leap to judgement if this was a Pakeha North Shore family Virtualmark?
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:53 pm
This country is fast become a very dangerous place. So this is justice is it?. What sort of message does the verdict seen to the general law abiding public. If I was to get the cannon out of the safe today and shoot a few socialists through the head I would probably be off to the big house but given the way justice is seen to be done in this country why wouldn’t I want to try. Someone has gotten away with murder, who will be the next to try their luck.
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:06 pm
I’m picking this: There may have been sufficient evidence to charge Macsyna but the evidence against Chris was stronger and/or more politically correct. The case will closed now because it’s too embarassing to change the subject of investigation. But… sometime down the road ‘new evidence’ will appear (despite it being already known) and Macsyna will end up in the dock. Just a theory.
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:20 pm
side show bob: “What sort of message does the verdict seen to the general law abiding public[?]”
It sends the message that there was not enough evidence to prove that that man murdered those two children. That is all. This is not another tentacle of The Invisible Socialist / PC Conspiracy…
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:41 pm
“It sends the message that there was not enough evidence to prove that that man murdered those two children. That is all.”
Well said, RRM
May 23rd, 2008 at 2:04 pm
Sonic … I believe that society-as-a-whole has a right to require those individuals that benefit from society to hold certain minimum standards. We already do this with criminal behaviour … if you don’t meet society’s deemed minimum standards of (criminal) behaviour then you’re banished from society (ie you’re locked up in prison).
So it’s not at all a difficult step to say that society requires those individuals that benefit from its financial largesse (literally … the beneficiaries) hold to certain minimum standards if you want to continue receiving that benefit. We already do this with the unemployment benefit … if you don’t show signs of actively looking for work then the benefit can be stopped.
And effectively this is also the case with CYF taking kids off parents who are neglecting them. If you don’t meet society’s expectations for looking after your kids then society denies you those kids (well, for the kids protection really).
I’m not talking about imposing unrealistic or exceptional standards of behaviour … but surely if society is going to provide benefits, healthcare, education etc we have a right to expect better than what we’ve seen the Kahui’s give their kids.
And yes, if it was a Pakeha North Shore family then I’d have no qualms about saying the same things.
And yes, I’ve never met the Kahuis. Although … the trial has been widely reported so what “truth” is out there is publicly available. And, my father knows their broader whanau and his opinion of them is very low. The media have been happy to label others in the family filthy savages (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/category/story.cfm?c_id=30&objectid=10469658 … sorry, don’t know how to format a hyperlink in this blog). I think it’s safe to say the Kahui family are not the citizens we’re proudest of.
May 23rd, 2008 at 2:24 pm
You sounded almost reasonable there Virtualmark, then you had to say “savages” didn’t you.
May 23rd, 2008 at 2:37 pm
Sonic: I wonder if you would be so quick to leap to judgement if this was a Pakeha North Shore family Virtualmark?
Quick off the mark to play the race card, aren’t you? I strongly suspect Virtualmark would react exactly the same. The death of a child is a tragedy, no matter what colour their skin, what level their income or whatever standard you want to look at. But, I guess in the mind of the leftie, racism is just one of the tools you use, isn’t it?
You are really a disgusting excuse for a human being.
May 23rd, 2008 at 2:56 pm
Sonic, I didn’t say filthy savages the NZ Herald did. Read the article I linked to. AFAIK that’s Chris Kahui’s cousin.
May 23rd, 2008 at 3:33 pm
I’ve been observing this case, with my stomach churning, from a distance as I live overseas. And as a father of four children, I have some understanding and experience of the needs of the very young, which doesn’t help.
Once again, we have an example of 1) the appalling treatment meted out to our young and vulnerable on an almost daily basis, and 2) the failure of our justice sysytem to deliver justice.
The Police may well have made mistakes but, it seems to me, they operate under increasingly difficult circumstances. They are constrained by others (one suspects the current government do lean on the Police in a particular way) and they have their own limitations. Then, in the Kahui case, there was the spectacle of the Police ‘holding off’ while they – and the rest of the country – wait for the whanau to deliver the guilty person(s).
It is a national catastrophe: serial parenting, sytematic child abuse and murder all done in the context of financial and other support from the state.
Who is speaking for the Kahui twins now? In what sense is the government meeting its prime obligation of guaranteeing the safety of its people?
I shall follow the rest of this tragedy not so much with interest as with a sense of shame at where NZ is at and of despair.
May 23rd, 2008 at 3:42 pm
“Quick off the mark to play the race card, aren’t you”
I think you may note it played on this thread by Virtualmark at 10:18 am when he said
““Polynesians are violent thugs”.
Weirdly enough I note you did not rush to condemn him as a “filthy human being”
Is that because
a) you share that view
b) You did not see the comment
c) You are merely a hypocrite.
Which would it be?
Virtualmark, so if someone’s cousin does something it means he is responsible?
Or is that just another way of saying “they are all the same”?
May 23rd, 2008 at 3:53 pm
dad4justice asks:
Ummm, successive Ministers of Police, evidently.
Oh, sorry, you asked who in their right mind… in that case, no one.
Meanwhile kiwitoffee says:
Sorry kiwitoffee but I’ve seen – on several occasions – what the Police can do if they set their mind to it. They’re quite capable of knowingly prosecuting an innocent person if that’s what it takes to score points and/or improve the clearance rate.
So when they’re faced with a case where clearly someone is guilty – and of the most heinous crime it’s possible to commit – to drop the ball as they’ve done is simply evidence that they’re not only corrupt but, as d4j says, profoundly stupid.
May 23rd, 2008 at 3:58 pm
If Chris Kahui is not guilty of the murders, then someone else must be.
F E Smith, are you really a defence lawyer???… even a churl (me) knows that a person who may have perpetrated an offence can establish reasonable doubt. A finding of not guilty does not mean someone ELSE did it. it simply means that the Crown failed in establishing it’s case to the requisite standard.
All we know, verdict or otherwise, is that one of the people inside the house was responsible, and that includes Kahui.
May 23rd, 2008 at 4:00 pm
Well I don’t agree with F.E.Smith the powers of the Police have been emasculated and the scale of Justice slanted in favour of the accused dramatically…I agree with Kevin RYAN possibly one of the finest ever Criminal Defenders that the right to silence is rediculous. As for lawyers not being interested in Legal Aid Cases, in this case there were up to a dozen Legal Aid lawyers representing members of this family before the Police even started their enquiries, no wonder there was an ironclad code of silence…The Police have however become Politically Correct with Kaumatua and Iwi Liason Officers and very high ranking Maori Issues Officer at Headquarters. I suspect that they did obstruct the action the Enquiry Team wanted to take in the initial
stages.As I understand it Our Justice system is based on the English and used to follow the case law of England in assessing admissibilty of evidence and on process. The English Police have the power to detain a suspect for up to 24 hours and when they interview him the ‘right to silence ‘ warning they give is ” Do you wish to say anything in answer to the charge, you do not have to say anything, but it may harm your defence if you do not answer when questioned on something which you later rely on in court. ” The NZ version “Do you wish to say anything in answer to the charge. You do not have to say anything. Anything you do say will be given in evidence. ” The former amounts to an incentive to speak the latter an incentive to shut up. In addition the NZ Police have no right to detain unless they arrest and charge and then they must present the accused to court where he can apply for bail at the earliest possible opportunity. I don’t know who was the murderer except that I am sure I read that KAHUI surrendered himself to the Police and made an admission along the llines I am the one I just want to get it over with. The case against them both is circumstantial, If Macsynda had been allowed to make any admission I suspect she would have been charged. There is no point adding either of them to all those Innocent murderers that FE SMITH talks about though it would help out the poverty stricken legal aid lawyers that his heart bleeds for.
May 23rd, 2008 at 4:08 pm
The reason we have a right to silence Baxter is to stop the police getting false confessions from people by hammering them physically or verbally while they are in custody.
It’s been a right since the Magna Carta.
“the NZ Police have no right to detain unless they arrest and charge”
Well thats not true, but you can arrest someone without charging them, indeed the police usually hold off charging someone as after that they usually cannot question them further.
May 23rd, 2008 at 4:13 pm
Sonic what I wrote was in reference to my father knowing the broader Kahui whanau, particularly the generation that are the parents of Chris & Roger Kahui. From what I understand shall we say the whole family are well known to the law. My opinion is, as I expressed earlier, that the Kahuis are not New Zealand’s proudest moment. I think that’s a fairly mild statement in the circumstances and it’s not at all racist.
My earlier comments about Polynesians having a dis-proportionate amount of violent thugs is, sadly, true. Maori & PI are, roughly, 20% of the total population. Unfortunately they make up a far larger proportion of our violent offendors. I don’t have the exact percentage but I’d be very very surprised if they didn’t represent at least 40% of those convicted for violent assaults & murders.
Polynesians probably make up at least 40% of the Super 14 players too, and they’re happy to wear the “Polynesians are great sportsmen” tag without accusing anyone of being racist. Problem is they don’t seem prepared to own the negative parts of their culture at the same time.
May 23rd, 2008 at 4:18 pm
baxter: Do you wish to say anything in answer to the charge
New Zealand Police do not ask a person if they ‘wish to say anything in answer to the charge’ when arresting, for the very reason that the charge on which the arrest is made is most often not the charge on which an information is laid, nor indeed, the charge which eventually goes to trial.
The phrase is, however, more typically used at the end of a police interview ie “Is there anything else you would like to say?…”
baxter: “As for lawyers not being interested in Legal Aid Cases, in this case there were up to a dozen Legal Aid lawyers representing members of this family before the Police even started their enquiries,”
I stand to be corrected by someone with first hand knowledge,but I understand that criminal legal aid can only be applied for by someone who has been charged with an offence. So in this case, only Chris Kahui’s lawyers got any money from the public purse.
The whole claim that legal aid is not profiable however, is put to rest by lawyers like Charl Hirschfeld who can earn millions of dollars in legal aid (mostly through Maori land work). The rates are the same for Criminal and Civil (around $150 per hour) so clearly junior lawyes can be hired to perform much of the work and a profit made on their ‘labour’.
May 23rd, 2008 at 4:25 pm
Police Minister Annette King said the hot summer and full moon were to blame for the recent “unusual events, It’s well documented within the police – and we’ve had a long hot summer – and the view is that we often get things happen in this month that we wouldn’t have happening in winter.”
Apparently the police have the winter months to stuff up the court cases
May 23rd, 2008 at 4:29 pm
“My earlier comments about Polynesians having a dis-proportionate amount of violent thugs”
That was not your comment Mark, your comment was
“they don’t have the balls to confront the negative cultural aspects like “Polynesians are violent thugs”
Its the difference between saying, all whites are graping, greedy b*stards who would sell their grandmother into slavery to make a few bucks (racist) or saying “whites have a dis-proportionate number of grasping greedy b*stards, etc etc)
I don’t think you are some sort of crazy racist Mark, but a few of your comments crossed the line (IMHO) so I pointed it out.
May 23rd, 2008 at 5:22 pm
Juscheckin said: The whole claim that legal aid is not profiable however, is put to rest by lawyers like Charl Hirschfeld who can earn millions of dollars in legal aid (mostly through Maori land work). The rates are the same for Criminal and Civil (around $150 per hour) so clearly junior lawyes can be hired to perform much of the work and a profit made on their ‘labour’.
This is wrong. The rates are dependent on experience level and level of case. Briefly (for a lawyer)
Proceedings Category 1 is any summary (judge alone) case up to 10 years imprisonment as the maximum penalty. For lawyers up to 4 years, the rate is $95 per hour, 4 to 9 year it is $100 per hour, 9+ years it is $110. All inclusive of GST. For a straight guilty plea, we get $225 – $300 incl. GST and that is it.
Proceedings Category 2, jury trial up to 10 years imprisonment, the rates are $100, $125, 130 in those different experience levels.
Proceedings Category 3, jury trial with over 10 years as maximum but not including life imprisonment the rate is $120, $130, $140.
Proceedings Category 4, jury trial with life as the penalty, $135, $150 and $165. Again all inclusive of GST.
Preparation time is limited to 3 hours for PC 1, 5 hours for PC 2, 10 hours for PC3 and 15 hours for PC4. That is 15 hours x $165 incl. GST for a murder case. You get extra time by going cap in hand to the LSA. There is no certainty you will get it.
By comparison, for any case, a crown lawyer of more than 9 years experience gets $198 plus GST, or about $216 per hour.
Work out the difference. Plus, we don’t have the police to do our investigative work for us.
Just so you know, 80 -90% of legal aid work is done at the PC1 level. We would be thrilled with $150 per hour for that sort of work.
May 23rd, 2008 at 6:46 pm
Sonic and Just Checkin……….As a veteran ex Police Officer I know I am right you are wrong…Incidentally Congratulations to Liabour’s only MP who was a former Criminal lawyer Russel FAIRBROTHER who has now come out and stated the ‘Right to Silence ‘ is rediculous and he will try to get a private member’s bill to reform it.
May 23rd, 2008 at 6:56 pm
D4J,
Totally agree with all of your posts. Usually a raving lunatic, but today right on the nail!
There is law in NZ for all, and there is alternative law for those who chose to use it.
However you must be of Maori decent to use the alternative law.
Above I read all sorts of tangents refering to other cases, names, right to silence etc etc.
The bottom line is, two children are dead and nobody is responsible.
Fucking Maori BULLSHIT.
Prob get banned but I don’t give a fuck, a murderer is on the loose.
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:16 pm
Gee Baxter, you didn’t have to tell me you are ex-Police, your use of completely capitalised surnames just screams it!
You are right in the UK approach to suspects, but I would emphasise that this is purely a modern approach to them that has been implemented mostly in the last decade together with a ‘crime control’ attitude that places restricting crime above protecting people’s rights. It also comes with a far more robust court system that is very happy to monitor and punish the police when they abuse their powers. We don’t get that here at all. But you leave out that the UK police are not allowed to use statements from suspects unless they are on videotape or audiotape. No backseat of the police car ‘confessions’, no ‘verballing’ and no twisting of a suspects words or lying to them to get a response that suits you. The right to silence is in existence to ensure that no-one is forced to incriminate themselves. You will note that that is enshrined in the United States Constitution, as well as being a rule of law in the New Zealand courts.
Anyway, I assure you that the police/crown have a huge advantage in the criminal process. The judiciary is most often pro-police, which of course belies their supposed impartiality. Just try defending a summary matter in the District Court. The Police aren’t hamstrung, they just have to follow rules that have been set down by Parliament for the protection of the citizens of this country against the hugely coercive power the police possess. The old question ‘who guards the guards’ is key here, and the answer is the defence lawyer does. Without defence lawyers to provide assistance to those charged, the Police would have carte blanch to run riot over personal rights, as they do so often now when they are not in the public eye.
Legal Aid is not granted to suspects, only to those charged with an offence. So if lawyers were assisting the Kahui’s then it wasn’t for the money. But even if they were, what is the problem with that? Is it because the Police want to take advantage of people without knowledge of the laws in place to protect them that the police so dislike? Or is it because the police want to take the easy course of action and get the people they suspect to fill in the blanks and thus avoid all that tiresome investigation? Or maybe it is simply that you want people to be without the assistance that representation provides? If that is the case, then why do police officers often choose to have a lawyer with them for disciplinary hearings? Why do serving police officers want to have a lawyer represent them if they are charged with a criminal offence? You don’t see the police officer turning up at court and representing themselves now, do you? Seems a bit of a double standard there.
The fact is that a defence lawyer is there to say what the accused would say if the accused had the knowledge of the law that the lawyer has. That is all. We don’t make things up. We don’t set out to ‘create’ defences. That is why 90% of charged people plead guilty. We are there to assist them through the system and provide advocacy on their behalf.
It is ironic that you mention Kevin Ryan, a defence lawyer who used to occupy the most despised lawyer position with the Police. His call for the abandonment to the right to silence has no support among fellow lawyers and is the sad outburst of a now relatively inactive defence lawyer. Russell Fairbrother is doing what any populist politician would do and is attempting to capitalise on the focus on this issue at present. It is appalling that a former criminal lawyer should introduce such a bill- unless he was a prosecutor, in which case it would be no surprise at all.
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:18 pm
Come on, Sonic, you should know the story by now. Using phrases like ‘Polynesians are violent thugs’ and ‘savages’ doesn’t make you a racist. But the act of calling someone for this kind of behaviour is most definitely ‘playing the race card’ and is therefore ‘disgusting’. Sharpen up, mate.
Steve: “Fucking Maori BULLSHIT. Prob get banned but I don’t give a fuck”
Bet you won’t.
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:05 pm
F E Smith; Thanks for the insight of defense lawyers against aggressive police culture.
Police disciplinary hearings are nothing more than “in house” inquiries similar to those carried out by the various Public Service Departments carried out by untrained Stae servants usurping what should be police matters.
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:24 pm
Steve, I too am frustrated with this Kahui stuff up and when it first come out I called the scum a N word on this site and coped a week ban so Mr Kahui if I bump into you in the street I won’t worry about demerits matey. This is one of the most shocking murders to have cursed our Nation and a couple of filth are covering up a demented low life baby killer. Justice is a sick joke .
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:54 pm
“when it first come out I called the scum a N word on this site and coped a week ban”
Where’s the justice eh daddy? Still, I’m glad you coped.
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:32 pm
D4J.
Take the pills, and I mean the headache pills.
Im fucked off with so much violence that is related to a small proportion of our multicultural society.
Yep MAORI, still savages after 140 years.
Have I done something wrong by being born here, and my father being born here?
I get no handouts, I get no preference over others.
Yeah sorry my ancestry is of no importance
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:41 pm
And Steve when you’re a white middle aged father you get a headache from the bashings the cops give you in the basement at central or a cell block in Greymouth,Ashburton etc…. Must get a change of colour, tough stickers on me face and start calling everybody bro. Where is the balance and is it a crime to be a honky kiwi ? Can you imagine the cops waiting to investigate if the despicable cold blooded psychopath scum N person was a white boy? No way ! Get real New Zealand and sort the shit out !!
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:44 pm
it’s been two laws for years, how else could tama iti get leave to travel overseas whilst on serious charges?
in fact its now probably one law for white hetro males – and another for the rest
“Maxina King and Kahui to be sterilized by offering a one off payment of $30,000 (per person)” My Vet only charges $250 for that!!
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:49 pm
What that flag shooting twisted fat slob tama iti is allowed to travel overseas?
God help New Zealand !
Is he on a gun running mission madam speaker? Big import coming soon. Guns bro, here have a rocket launcher – works real good – hehehe!!
Make sure Banjo gets one.
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:53 pm
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4511563a10.html
no, just practising for his trial
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:19 pm
Mates, it’s totally out of hand. As D4J’s just told us, it’s gotten so a white guy can’t call someone ‘the N word’ on a blog without getting banned for his troubles… It’s PC gone mad!
May 26th, 2008 at 11:40 pm
Its a bit sad to realise that people no longer love their children the way people use too. Unfortunate senario happening again when it comes to hurting people too young and little to defend themselves. What happened to us adults? I believe drugs is the major killer of this country! P literally takes the soul of humans and leave a shell for the brain. When did we as a nation stop caring? All of us needs to wake up and stop blaming but make a change when it comes to our children. This is not a bout race or social welfare. This is about us taking a stand and saying enough is enough. I realise that we cant stop drugs in this country but we can make a stand and say that “If your going to do drugs, KEEP THE FUCK AWAY FROM THE FAMILY AND LEAVE THE KIDS ALONE!”…….Dont have kids if you cant love and protect them. I think Maori people need to take care of justice the old way. I believe punishment on whanau was such a crime that the iwi punished their own for such hennis crimes… the law can longer handle whats happening. There is not enough in the budget for rehabilitation on such a matter. Someone needs to be accounted for and punished severly for this crime. I hope all MANA is taken from these too parents as both are accounted for the deaths of innocent souls. I am a mother of two and a Maori and I believe if such an assault happened on my children…I would be begging them to throw ME in jail even though I didnt do it. As a parent its our job to protect our own…NO.1 PARENT LAW! I could never forgive myself for what was done and in my view I WOULD LEAVE THE COUNTRY!!!!!!! I hope Chris Kahui and Maxina King never sleep well. May your souls be haunted by your childrens cries screaming for Justice for the rest of your filthy lives!”.
May 26th, 2008 at 11:58 pm
Its sad to think we no longer care for our children, whateva race they may be..Children are children in my books and need love and protection from the ones they trust the most… if a woman has children taken off her, and she considers herself a druggie and unfit mother. Then why have more children? and more to the point, why would men want to have children with her. Your a gutless mother Macsyna and your a repulsive father Chris Kahui. Its people like you that make our country horrible and kp our races seperated. I am a mother of two fine children who are of Maori and Pakeha descendant. I ask the people of NZ to please not judge our people for these crimes as we are not inclined in that way. Maori people are naturally strong minded people and we have beautiful values and beliefs that I show my children and these are values to be proud of. BUT Maori people can not handle drugs like P as it tends to take their souls and make them weak! and this is a proven fact. WHY then why do we do it. All cultures experiment with the wild side of life, thats how we make choices. BUT I will say…….”If you are going to do drugs? , KEEP IT AWAY FROM THE FAMILY, ESPECIALLY OUR CHILDREN!”. With crimes such as these, I believe the Iwi of Macsyna King and Chris Kahui need punish their own for not protecting their children. Both should be accounted for and both should pay the price. I dont think the courts can do anything here …THIS IS PURELY A MAORI MATTER AND THEIR IWI SHOULD BE THEIR JUDGE AND JURY NOW!! A hint for both of these useless parents ” I pray you neer sleep well for the rest of your days, I pray that all you ever here in the still of the night is the screams from both of your children, begging for a JUSTICE that may never come. NB: If NZ threw you both a rope?, how long do you think it would be?”
May 27th, 2008 at 12:08 am
its a sad thing. but lets not get racial here. Not all Maori people are bad you know. Theres heaps of cultures out there committing crimes, dont judge a race because of 10 people. Thats why we will always have conflict. Is David Bain or the Aramoana Killer Maori? I believe they killed more. So lets not judge please. But in the case of two beautiful babies? All I can say to the system and them……………………………PRICELESS!