Churchill
June 27th, 2008 at 2:13 am by David FarrarAfter Stratford-On-Avon we decided to go visit Blenheim Palace – the home of the Dukes of Marlborough and birthplace of Winston Churchill whose grandfather was the 7th Duke of Marlborough.
The Palace is huge and this is just one portion of it. It is well worth visiting for anyone up near Oxford.
Inside they have an amazing collection of artworks – portraits and tapestries on the ground floor, plus lots of Churchill memobilia. You can easily spend an hour just looking around that floor. And in their Library they have the most magnificant collection of vintage books – including what appears to be an original “Wealth of Nations”. I could happily spend years in their library.
Upstairs they have a digital display telling the history of the eleven Dukes of Marlborough which is a bit tacky, but still quite interesting.
Some rather nice fountains out the back.
Their lawns would be ideal for a very aggressive game of Croquet!
This is in the Secret Garden, and you can see why they kept it secret for so long – it is a wonderfully tranquil place – so tranquil, German Girl didn’t even have her eyes open for the photo!
As we drove out of Blenheim Palace we saw a small sign saying St Martin’s Church and the grave of Churchill was to our right. Now there are monuments to Churchill everywhere but I had never heard about where he was buried and was intrigued it was up here not in St Pauls or Westminister Abbey like so many other British heroes. So we set out to find it.
We worked out the church was in Bladon. But how to get to it proved difficult. There was no big flashing signs. Really no signs at all, and no car parks. Eventually I just had to illegally park the car off the side of the main road and we went up a small path to St Martin’s which is a pretty small church – a maximum of 100 worshippers I would say.
And next to the small church with a plain stone over the grave is the final resting place of the man voted the greatest Brit of the last 1,000 years. No list of offices and achievements – just his name and that of his beloved Clemmie.
Other members of the Churchill family buried next to Winston. As I said, it is not at all promoted and there was no one else there when we were there. Was somewhat fitting to see both his birthplace and his burial place in the same day.
Tags: Blenheim Palace, DPF, Duke of Marlborough, Winston Churchill
June 27th, 2008 at 3:37 am
Blenheim Palace is an impressive place.
David, did you get a chance to see Churchill’s Cabinet war rooms while in London?
[DPF: Yes, and the Churchill Museum that has been added onto that]
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 6:58 am
Ah Churchill, a great man indeed
If only we had a few more like him… I can only imagine how he would weep at the sight of some of the totalitarians we have today, nesting in the very office he held.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 7:30 am
indeed pushmepullu,
A national ID card was brought in during the war (national registration act 1939), as it was a necessary evil due to the perceived threat posed by nazi spies, and Winston loathed it vowing to get rid of it as soon as possible. He never got the chance as the post war government was a Labour one, who saw fit to keep the card. It was very much hated and one of the reasons Labour was subsequently booted out. One of the first things Winston did when back in power was get rid of it (1952). Now of course, the current UK Labour government want to bring it back. Winston would be appalled.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 9:26 am
Churchill was never universally beloved you know.
My dad told me an interesting story about how many of the population saw Churchill. He remembered being in a cinema in Glasgow in 1944 (he would have been 5 or 6) and when Churchill appeared on screen everyone booed.
When he asked his mum why, she said she hated Churchil as he was a “warmonger” (this is in the middle of the war of course)
It is no surprise he got stuffed in the 1945 election.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 9:37 am
Well, if by Glaswegian standards, Churchill was considered a ‘warmonger’ all I can say is he must have had balls of steel..
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 9:47 am
Churchill may not been liked by left-wing Scots, who without a doubt would’ve preferred Stalin, but Sir Winston was a true giant.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 9:49 am
I mean, we are talking about a place which recently topped up its glorious contribution (Celtic notwithstanding) to humanity by inventing the deep-fried mars bar!
I do not include Charlene Spiteri in this she is the woman I love.
Vote:By the way, interesting side-note I saw a documentary about the Batlle of Britain the other day did yo know that the victory could be attributed to the work of a Scot, a New Zealander, and a half-American?
Pop-quiz – can you name them?
June 27th, 2008 at 10:17 am
Sonic has a right to say what he/she thinks about Churchill, the reality is that his/her comments are stupid and solely designed to wind up those from the right.
I do find it interesting to watch the reaction of the pinko’s when you point out the numerous faults of their demi god JFK.
Despite the pinko media trying to re write history JFK would more than likely have been impeached had he lived, he was a pathetic president and (like Clinton) a compulsive liar.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 10:32 am
The Kiwi was Keith Park, the Scot Hugh Dowding and the Half-American Churchill. In many ways Churchill combined the ideal features of the two great English-speaking races – the gravitas and knowledge of the British with the tenacity and energy of the Americans. Truly a great man and is it at all surprising he is one of the few non-Americans to have a US navy vessel named for him?
Maxvp it goes to show if there was one mistake Churchill made in his life it was to allow Clement Atlee and the other socialists into his wartime government despite the fact that their fervent desire was for peace at any price, even that of freedom.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 10:54 am
Can’t get your hand off it for even one post can you chronic.
I think Churchill’s reputation will survive you and your mum. There are only a very few of us have the displeasure of even knowing you exist.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 10:57 am
Ever seen the 1945 general election results?
Popular vote Labour 11,967,746 Conservative 8,716,211
Percentage Labour 49.71% Conservative 36.2%
It seems the majority of the British population in 1945 did not like Churchill, sorry for pointing out these facts, but facts they remain.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 11:19 am
When we visited Blenheim we had the same problem trying to find the church at Bladon.
Couldnt help reflect the contrast between Churchills final resting place very understated compared to USA and other countries treatment of their heros.
Despite all the bullshit and rewriting history fact is our lives would have been a lot different if the Hun had prevailed over Churchill and the others.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 11:24 am
“rewriting history”
You mean gd the 1945 election never happened?
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 11:45 am
The majority of people here think your an enormous prat. Whats your point, aside from pissing on great mans grave I mean.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 11:47 am
Didn’t Churchill himself say after his 1945 election defeat, that he didn’t blame the English people for wanting a change, after all they had been through during the time of his tenure as PM?
Also I’ll wager Churchill, being an Englishman of conservative tastes (and a bit of a hard man as well I believe) would not want some bullshit “eternal flame” or what have you over his grave!
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 11:57 am
That evening those Scottish boo’ers would have had ther pleasure of choosing which theatre to attend (since none have been razed by German bombing), while I suspect their London compatriots would have picked they way through the rubble to the last theatre left standing… just to applause Sir Winston.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 11:58 am
Murray;
it doesn’t do to make dead old men sacred. Let us not forget that the young Churchill was also the strategic “genius” behind the disastrous Gallipoli campaign in WW1. Luckily for England, he let the *real* Generals guide him in the Second World war…
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
“Whats your point, aside from pissing on great mans grave I mean.”
He doesn’t have one. Never does. His only objective is, as is the usual strategy of such mindless yellow backed leftist scum, to smear and malign and or destroy the reputation of anyone who doesn’t agree with their stinking collectivist ideology. Look at the way the cowards are writing letters to Whale Oil’s advertisers, as they have done with FOX news and so many other sources they consider a threat to their political ascendancy.
They attack and hate Churchill merely because he didn’t buy into their commie shit. No other reason. The real point is tho, at the same time as they were so busy denigrating Sir Winston, the scum, especially academics in universities and other leftist strongholds, were turning a blind eye to the mass murders of their pinup boys Stalin and Mao and Che and Fidel and Pol Pot.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
There are three types of people in history – great men like Churchill, ordinary men like most of us and prattling socialists like sonic. The response of an ordinary man to a great man is admiration and resolve to live up to their legacy, the response of a socialist like sonic is a mixture of self-hatred as their inadequacy is shown in stark relief and panic at the contemplation of morals, standards and courage, which are anathema to a socialist. This produces two responses, either mute silence or pathetic attempts to use the selective quoting of statistics in an attempt to bring the great man down to the socialist’s pathetic level. Luckily for sonic none of us are convinced and will not stand in the way of his getting the help he needs, although he may have to wait until November, when a much-needed dose of reality will be administered.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
RRM, the persons to blame for the slaughter at Gallipolli are the Muslims and their European sympathisers who shot our boys, not the leaders who saw the threat.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
“the usual strategy…[is] to smear and malign and or destroy the reputation of anyone who doesn’t agree with their… ideology.”
No! Who ever would do such a thing?
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
Get off it RRM, for all his many failings he was great long before he died.
If you want to find the reasons that the Gallipoli campaign failed look at the the tactical level, not the strategic.
History has made its judgement. the likes of you and chronic wailing about it wont change that. He’s great, you’re not even an also ran, suck it up.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
pushmepullu – but deciding to drop ‘our boys’ off in a natural amphitheatre/shooting gallery, and then fail to get the requisite supporting barrage of shelling there in time to cover them, was unfortunate and avoidable; and certainly that was not the “fault” of those nasty muslims whose country we were invading!
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
“suck it up”
Murray I don’t dispute the calibre of the man especially in regards to his Prime Ministership.
ALL I AM SAYING is don’t make saints and don’t make certain topics sacred or off-limits – it does no harm to ask questions and make your own evaluations of the past. Take it easy!
PS: And please refer to my 11:47am if you remain convinced I am a serious detractor of his!
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
“those Scottish boo’ers would have had ther pleasure of choosing which theatre to attend (since none have been razed by German bombing”
You really are a dumbass, do you know that?
http://www.theclydebankstory.com/story_TCSB01.php
As for the rest, the usual hysterical response we always get whenever someone states a simple fact you do not like. I find it all very amusing watching you make fools of yourself, although I’m sure sensible right-wingers must be holding their heads in their hands every time you comment
“the persons to blame for the slaughter at Gallipolli are the Muslims and their European sympathisers who shot our boys”
Imagine them not allowing ther country to be invaded, perfidious muslims.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
Sonic, my great-grandfather was on the beach at Gallipolli, are you calling him an invader?
If those peace-loving muslims were so afraid of getting their country invaded by big bad Kiwis maybe they shouldn’t have tried to invade Egypt?
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 1:03 pm
Guys
The English have a saying about the Scottish..”they will do anything for their country, apart from living there”
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 1:06 pm
sonic, You know that the boo’ing was most certainly because Sir Winston was English. Had he let the Nazi’s march into London they would probably have applauded. But I suspect those same boo’ers would have started called him spineless and lily-livered once goose-stepping could be heard north of Hadrian’s Wall.
My point, which was clearly a bit subtle for your intellect, was that those who were at the sharpest end of German aggression where not calling Sir Winston a warmonger, while your countrymen slurred him from the comfort of their relatively safe homes.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
As with everyone, Churchill did some good things and some bad. You know, the way people now trot out a well-worn list of positive things over which Helen Clark has presided while in office (I won’t list them here, they’re trotted out at The Standard ad infinitum, just visit on any given day).
At the end of their life (or their term in office) the good is weighed against the bad. For all his faults (and I’ve read various biographies of him – he certainly had them) Churchill has been weighed in the balance and been found by his fellow Britons to be, as DPF says, the greatest to have lived amongst them for the past 1,000 years.
I wonder, when Clark’s achievements (and I acknowledge they are many) are weighed against her failings (and, particularly of late, they are manifold) how New Zealanders of the future will rank her amongst us?
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 1:10 pm
So is that your effort at admitting that your little throw away line about Glasgow never getting bombed was your usual nonsense getstaffed?
Clydebank was bomed to destruction idiot, so much for “relatively safe”
Apology accepted.
“You know that the boo’ing was most certainly because Sir Winston was English”
And the millions of English voters who threw him out of office in 1945, what was their excuse.
Arguing history with most of you lot is about as pointles as it gets because you have no knowledge of the subject, just knee-jerk ideology.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 1:11 pm
“Sonic, my great-grandfather was on the beach at Gallipolli, are you calling him an invader?”
Thats what he was mate, unless he was Turkish of course.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
Big Bruv: if we’re going to fall back on aphorisms, have you heard the Four Nations one?
The Irish: fought battles against everyone inculding themselves.
The Welsh: prayed on their knees, and on their neighbours.
The Scots: kept the sabbath and everything else they could lay their hands on.
The English: claimed to be a self-made race, thius relieving God of a terrible responsibility.
As regards Churchill, it is possible to admire certains aspects/achievements of the man without canonising him. He was above all else human, with all the faults and failings that entails.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 1:29 pm
And of course Sonic does not tell the whole story, as usual he/she twists the truth to suit his/her left wing bullshit argument.
There would have been a huge number of Scots who were against Churchill and the war effort in general, almost to a man they would have been Catholics and Glasgow Celtic fans.
These are the same nutters are well know for their support of the IRA during the so called “troubles” in Eire and London during the later part of last century, for Sonic to claim that they were anti Churchill because of some hatred of his politics is an outright lie.
These idiots were anti England and anti the English claim to Northern Ireland, it had nothing to do with Churchill personally.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 1:33 pm
sonic, You are uncharacteristically hot under the collar today. What’s up?
Yes, I retract and apologise for the Glasgow comment. I was wrong. Not the first time and won’t be the last.
Odd that you should accept an apology before it was offered. Actually it does make sense. Socialists take what is not theirs to take, whether or not it is first offered.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 1:34 pm
I got a bit miffed about you trying to ignore thousands of people’s deaths because it did nto fit you agenda.
Apology accepted, no hard feelings.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
“There would have been a huge number of Scots who were against Churchill and the war effort in general, almost to a man they would have been Catholics and Glasgow Celtic fans.”
BB.Any idea how many Glasgow Catholics died in the British armed forces during WW2?
You attcked Scottish people, that got nowhere, now you go for Catholic Scottish people, who is next on this scraping the bottom of the barrel tour you seem to be engaged in, Scottish, Muslim-Catholic nationalist communist gays?
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 1:51 pm
Big Bruv sonic is telling the truth, the Glasgow Catholics IRA-wannabes did hate Churchill for his politics… they hated him for his politics of freedom, responsibility, courage and honour. Anathema to socialists everywhere, be it Glasgow, Dublin or good old New Zealand
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
I wonder, when Clark’s achievements (and I acknowledge they are many) are weighed against her failings (and, particularly of late, they are manifold) how New Zealanders of the future will rank her amongst us?
Rex, any historian worth his salt (which sadly few of them are, having been indoctrinated in socialist universities that are like hothouses for the drooping flowers of effete liberal anti-patriotism) would conclude that Helen Clark is the worst Prime Minister the country has ever suffered under. Her so-called achievements as dubiously promoted on the Double Standard are nothing more than her coasting on the rewards of the hard slog of the last National government
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
Sonic
Be very careful about casting aspersions when you have no idea of a persons ancestry, one thing they do say about the Scots is that they have a great ability to laugh at themselves.
Now, first of all you really must stop twisting things and telling half truths or outright lies, I NEVER said that ALL Catholics were against the war, what I said was that there was a “huge number”, are you going to dispute this?
And fuck off with your faux outrage, it does not wash with me.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
Rex summed Churchill up nicely and Sonic proved (yet again) what a prat he is. I vividly remember touring the Houses of Parliament. In the annex between the House of Lords and the House of Commons there are huge murals of the great moments and battles of English history. As you enter the House of Commons, there is a large bronze statue of Churchill. Bronze over time oxidises into a dark green brown colour. This is the case with Churchill’s statue except that his left foot (the one closest to the doorway) is bright and shiny. Our guide told us that this is because so many people touch his foot that it is polished bright and shiny like a prized jug. I think that story sums up Churchill and the esteem the English hold him in.
As the son of one who survived both the Blitz of London and attended boarding school next to Biggin Hill in Kent, I can tell you that the English of my father’s generation have a respect and love for Churchill that is hard to put into words. My father recalls crowding around his parents wireless, knowing that his own father had been captured at Dunkirk mere months earlier, listening to Churchill’s “We will NEVER surrender” speech and seeing the tears of his normally stoic mother and feeling that Britain would prevail.
Churchill, on hearing from Air Vice Marshall Hugh Dowding (head of Fighter Command) that the RAF had pilots and planes to last only 3 more weeks, ordered a lone Wellington bomber to bomb the Reichstag and the Nazi Party HQ. The miniscule 2000 lbs of ordinance dropped that day had little effect except to anger Hitler who ordered the Luftwaffe to cease its devastatingly effective campaign against the RAF fighter bases and begin the Blitz of London. That tactical decision, though costing over 20,000 civilian deaths in London alone, gave Dowding precious time to train new pilots and build more Spitfires and Hurricanes and the rest, as they say, is history.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
Pushme
Most hated what Churchill stood for, mind you they are brainless idiots so the confusion is easy to understand.
The sad thing about that beautiful country and fantastic city is that the place is still infested with (as you so accurately describe) IRA wannabes and mindless thugs who actually know fuck all about the origins of “the troubles” other than their father and their father’s father hated the English (Protestants) so they hate them as well.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
KIA – calling someone a prat for having a view that is different from yours, makes you a prat.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
“KIA – calling someone a prat for having a view that is different from yours, makes you a prat.”
Jezuz, could anyone besides the posing low IQ plagiarising fake academic Gnome write something so blindly and stupidly self contradictory??
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
” I said was that there was a “huge number”, are you going to dispute this?”
Depends what you mean by a huge number really, whats your evidence?
I’m starting to think you have a little agenda here BB.
KIA ” the English of my father’s generation have a respect and love for Churchill that is hard to put into words.”
So why did they vote to kick him out of office then KIA?
No hurry, in your own time.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
Sonic
“whats your evidence?”
Family, born and bred “weegins”, now care to answer my question Sonic or have I caught you in another lie?
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
I see, tell me did you family do any long walks in mid-July?
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
“There would have been a huge number of Scots who were against Churchill and the war effort in general, almost to a man they would have been Catholics and Glasgow Celtic fans.
These are the same nutters are well know for their support of the IRA during the so called “troubles” in Eire and London during the later part of last century, for Sonic to claim that they were anti Churchill because of some hatred of his politics is an outright lie.
These idiots were anti England and anti the English claim to Northern Ireland, it had nothing to do with Churchill personally.”
and
“mindless thugs who actually know fuck all about the origins of “the troubles” other than their father and their father’s father hated the English (Protestants) so they hate them as well.”
Without meaning to drag this off into a tangential cul-de-sac, as regards the “troubles” they were hardly based in “Eire and London”. Having lived in Belfast during the early 80s I seem to recall a few shots being fired in anger there too.
Vote:Also I think you’re conflating British and english when you ascribe a hatred to any specific group. Irish republicans and nationalists objected to Britain’s role in Ireland, not england’s. A small point but one that bears emphasis for the sake of correctness. Also I think you are doing a disservice to the thousands of Glaswegian (and Irish) Catholics who joined up and fought in the British Army in WW2.
June 27th, 2008 at 3:16 pm
Sonic – your Clydebank link was an interesting read, but it claimed 528 Scots were killed. Your 1:34pm comment refers to “thousands of deaths” – where did all these others occur?
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 3:18 pm
Sonic
Ahh..now I know where your hatred of Churchill comes from, you try to hide it by referring to his politics but the reality is that you are a religious bigot.
Vote:How does this sit with your persecution of the Brethren Sonic?
June 27th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
“Jezuz, could anyone besides the posing low IQ plagiarising fake academic Gnome write something so blindly and stupidly self contradictory??”
heh – no kiwilbog user does self-contradiction more often than you, hypocrite.
Also, you unsurprisingly miss the point. People who bring historical facts to debate aren’t prats, but people who call them prats for doing so are.
I know the distinction is probably lost on someone who is so emotionally immature, and incapable of factual debate, that they inevitably end up in the throws of an ad hom-slinging tantrum when ever they come up against someone with a fact-based argument.
oh and by the way, are you still intending to stand as a candidate this election? dad4justice is standing too you know. Still trying to decide which is funnier
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
The Clydebank raid was only one attack 3-coil.
I’ve been looking for total Scottish casualty figures but with no luck.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
Bruv, I’m starting to see where you are comeing from as well, you brought up religion not me, yet somehow thatmakes me the bigot?
what a very odd little chap you are!
I’m still awaiting evidence that vast numbers of Scots oppossed world war two because they were catholics (oh and sorry “my mammy told me does not count)
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
Bearhunter
I did not mean to infer that London and Eire were the only places that were affected by “the troubles”, you are also right (technically) when you point out it is the British that the IRA wankers were fighting against however I do not remember to many bombs going off in Glasgow or Cardiff.
My point is that many Scottish (and Glaswegians specifically) bought into the whole IRA v UDF bullshit when the reality was that is had very little to do with them, their loyalty was based on religious or football affiliations.
And as for the assertion you make that I insulted Scottish Cahtolics…show me where I said that and I will apologise.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
“My point is that many Scottish (and Glaswegians specifically) bought into the whole IRA v UDF bullshit”
in 1939?
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
Hi Everyone! Poor old Sonic – she/he’s really getting a see-ing to this aftenoon!
Vote:Can I make a couple of points about Sir Winston Churchill, please?. My credentials are that I was ten years old and living in England when the War ended and until 1974 when I came to NZ. So I lived through the war and immediate post war years in Britain.
Sir Winston was undeniably a great war leader. He had mana, style, presence, political acumen and, most of all, presence and the ability to inspire. However – and there’s always a however, isn’t there – he was undoubtably excoriated by large sections of the British population who bitterly remembered the Tory 1930s – hence his being rapidly put out of office at the ’45 General Election.
His ‘curriculum vitae’ (if you like) embraced political about-faces, repeated changing of parties, an undistinguished spell at Admiralty in WW1 when, history has indicated, he was largely responsible for the debacle in the Dardennelles. My grasp and knowledge of inter-war British politics is scant, but I do know from personal observation that apart from his charismatic role as Britain’s wartime PM, he was seen by many as deeply flawed. I wouldn’t go so far as to say he was the Winston Peters of his day – but there are startling parallels in their respective political careers.
Let me finish by saying I admire and revere his memory for what he did during the War – but he was no political superman or clean-skin, he was a politician through and through and human – with all the human strengths and waknesses.
June 27th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
Sonic
You really have a problem with the truth don’t you, it was not me who mentioned anything about long walks, YOU are the one who was offended by the idea.
However it is good to know that you are indeed a religious AND political bigot.
I asked you to deny that a “huge number” were against WW2, so far you have refused to do so and the reality is that you cannot.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
Sonic
“My point is that many Scottish (and Glaswegians specifically) bought into the whole IRA v UDF bullshit”
in 1939?”
Do you need a history lesson? who said anything about 1939?
Go and troll somewhere else, you are just making a fool of yourself.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
I’m not so worried about the 500 vs 1000′s thing. Its exaggeration and most posters here are guilty of that in attempting to ‘prove’ various points. What does piss me off though is when sonic (and others) make statements like “miffed about you trying to ignore… did not fit into you agenda” like that was the motivation. I had no idea that the Nazi’s bombed Glasgow – but I do now.
Sonic: a simple “Apology accepted” would have shown you to have some spine. Instead you used my apology as a platform to attack. Pathetic.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
Double comments, within 3 mins of each other!
poor Bruv is getting desperate
“Do you need a history lesson? who said anything about 1939?”
You did, 1.29pm.
” I asked you to deny that a “huge number” were against WW2, so far you have refused to do so ”
I asked you what you meant by a huge number, so far no answer to that either.
“Go and troll somewhere else”
trans
Stop showing me up please!!!
getstaffed, fair enough.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
sonic shouldn’t you be watching Hitchens and Harry says gidday !!
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 3:45 pm
Don’t flatter yourself Sonic, its just that I take great pleasure in showing you up and “outing” you as a liar.
Now how about you deny what I said was true or admit that you were lying.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
Liar, liar, sonic pants on fire !!!
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
Christ almighty, why is it that every fucking debate in here gets dragged down into hysterical screaming and finger-pointing within 50 or so posts? Actually, no don’t answer that, it will only depress me. However I do find it strangely fitting that a post about Churchill should wind up dragging in Northern Irish politics, given Sir Randolph Churchill’s role in stirring up militancy in NI prior to partition.
Vote:By the way Big Bruv, I wasn’t trying to score points with my last post, simply trying to elevate the discussion past the simplistic Prod vs Taig/Irish vs British labels that so readily hang on any discussion of NI. And I accept that many did buy into a tribalism they knew little or nothing about, especially since 1969, but given the centuries of to-ing and fro-ing between Ireland and Scotland (the plantation, the gallowglasses, post-famine emigration to Glasgow, hell even as far back as the kingdom of Dalriada) it’s understandable to an extent, if not excusable.
June 27th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
bearhunter
Point taken, and for the record nor was I.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
” deny what I said was true”
Which bit, the statement that Glasgow is full of disloyal Fenian scum?
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 4:18 pm
Big bruv: Nae bother. And with that, I’m leaving this kindergarten and going for a drink with the grown ups. Have a good weekend.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Same frae me bruv, lets all chill it’s Friday!
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
Sonic
I note you fail to mention Churchill’s re-election as PM in the 1951 election. Yes he lost in 1945 – so what, incumbent leaders all over the democratic world have lost elections. Voters get tired of governments and vote them out. Labour’s front bench heavyweights had performed well in the wartime unity cabinet and so they were seen as able managers of post war Britain obviously not so able as to be able to persuade British voters to keep them in past 1 term. Churchill resigned the premiership in 1955 due to his ill health.
A measure of his esteem was the seen at his funeral. He was afforded a State funeral second only to the death of a reigning monarch. Apparently it wasn’t until the death of John Paul II in 2005 that there were more heads of State at a funeral of a famous leader than at Churchill’s funeral in 1964.
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
those wanting the proof of the abject idiocy of churchill in the gallipoli campaign….
..and the clearest picture of gallipoli itself..
..must see this movie/doco..
(you will cry..!..)
http://whoar.co.nz/2006/gallipolithe-moviea-review/
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:June 27th, 2008 at 6:38 pm
Let me guess, sonic you little suckhole:
1945 election:
Vote:Conservative policy: Tighten our belts for a while longer and we’ll rebuild our nation
Labour Policy: Free shit for everyone! Fuck paying for it, we’re the toast of Europe!
June 27th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
Labour’s front bench heavyweights had performed well in the wartime unity cabinet
KiA, bollocks. I challenge you to provide one example of a Labourite doing well in the wartime cabinet. They were tax and spend socialists to a man and Churchill managed to keep them confined to meaningless jobs – of course, their huge egoes meant that they thought they were super important, maybe even fit to sit in the same room with Churchill. As if! As I say Churchill was not perfect – he let the Labourites into Cabinet, when he should instead have sent them to prison camps with Oswald Moseley and the other appeasing traitors.
Vote:June 28th, 2008 at 2:32 am
pushmepullme
Vote:I agree but the trouble was that Churchill’s scaremongering on the hustings in 1945 went a bit too far and the voter’s perception of Atlee, Bevan and co was that they weren’t as scary as portrayed. Buggerlugs succinctly summed it up. After the privations of a long draining war and the prospect of protracted privation and rationing it was easy for Labour to counter with grand promises of a rebuilt Britain and an all embracing welfare state. Britain is still paying the price of Labour’s NHS. His re-election in 1951 proved that he had been more right than wrong in his assessment of what was needed to really rebuild post war Britain.
June 28th, 2008 at 2:34 am
I note that Sonic, having taken his cheap shot, has retreated into silence given his whines about Churchill’s 1945 loss have been well and truly exposed for what they are.
Vote:June 29th, 2008 at 1:31 am
KiA you are saying some pretty low things about a war hero there. What exactly do you mean when you say Churchill was a ‘scaremonger’? Let’s make this clear if not for Churchill you and I would be speaking German now, the man had the courage to stand up to Hitler when the whole world was cowering down. So you keep that in mind and think again, are you really going to accuse such a titan of ‘scaremongering’?
I will never understand why the people of the UK chose communist suckholes like Atlee and his gang of hand-holders over a true carved-from-granite British hero like Churchill. Probably all the trade unionists who spent 1939-1945 hiding in their gardens crying for Stalin to save them from the bombs finally coming out into the open and driving a knife into the back of the man who saved them at great risk to his own life. Flaming typical socialists
Vote:June 29th, 2008 at 7:27 am
pushmepullme
You’re being overly defensive here. Read all my posts in this thread and you’ll see I believe Churchill to be every inch the war hero he was. I was addressing Sonic’s attempts to denigrate Churchill’s record by sneering about his 1945 election loss. There is no denying he lost and quite convincingly. I don’t profess to be an expert on 20th Century British elections but any cursory glance at the historical record indicates that Churchill lost for the key reasons I cited namely:
* The electoral tide running out on an incumbent government – the fate of many a government the world over
* The electorate succumbing to Labour’s grand promises after the long privations of the war
* The Conservatives sticking to a realistic and achievable post-war rebuilding programme that paled next to Labour promising to end rationing and some glorious post-war return of British pride and power
* Churchill denegrated his opponents (I happen to agree with the things he said about them) – the electorate saw Atlee and co differently and saw Churchill as needlessly scaremongering since enough of the people adjudged some of Labour’s front bench’s handling of their war time portfolios as good enough to give them the Treasury benches. I’m not agreeing with the verdict of the voters – I’m merely reporting what historians saw as being a contributing factor not “low things about a war hero”.
As I stated earlier, Churchill was right about his opponents hence why he won re-election again in the 1951 election.
Vote: