How to recover?
Keith Ng looks at how Labour can recover from four post-budget polls which has them 20% to 25% behind National.
It’s a label that Labour can’t seem to shake off, but that’s because nobody knows what Labour really stands for, says Dr Jon Johansson, a leadership expert at Victoria University. “The real weakness of Clark is that there is no over-arching explanation as to what the purpose of her government is. We’ve seen this right through the three terms.
“It never mattered for the first two terms, when National was in disarray,” says Johansson. “One year it’s economic transformation, then it’s environmental sustainability. In the absence of some over-arching narrative about purpose, people end up thinking, ‘Well, all these people want is to stay in power’. Clark has always abhorred rhetoric, and now she’s paying the price for that.”
It is true that Labour has almost swapped goals every few months, and with none of them really being achieved. If National gains office and wants to retain office it is going to have to have a couple of simple goals which it can measure progress against at every election.
Johansson thinks that Clark needs to explain the purpose of her government, and in particular, front up over its most unpopular positions: the Electoral Finance Act and why it took so long to give tax cuts.
I think it is too late on both those fronts. The basic truth is the motives behind the EFA were a crude attempt to fuck over National and critics of the Government, and help gain a permament grasp on power.
The tax cuts issues may once have been redeemable for them, but they mishandled the Budget even though it did deliver tax cuts. Instead of the public seeing a Government talking about how pleased they were to let peopel keep more of their own money, they just saw a gloating Dr Cullen boast about how he had prevented National from offering bigger tax cuts.
June 29th, 2008 at 7:51 pm
“Nobody knows what Labour stand for” What pathetic partisan crap. Labour’s problem is that too many people now understand exactly what they stand for. Totalitarianism. The EFA came into being because the left were incensed that the EBs actually told the truth about Labour and the Greens when the mainstream media, full of Labour’s plants, cronyists and lackies, were as usual doing their best to smokescreen that truth.
June 29th, 2008 at 8:09 pm
The only possible way the motley crew from Liarbour can recover from total annihilation at the polls is for them to finally discover a brain cell that alerts them to the consequences associated with the ‘Absolute Power’ mentality.
June 29th, 2008 at 8:11 pm
D4J, Are you offering up your brain cell?
Redbaiter, Pathetic crap, yes, but I’m not sure about partisan. “Leadership” as a field of study, is bogus new age nonsense in an area “business studies” that is egregiously effete in terms of scholarship, so we shouldn’t expect anything terribly profound. Ng demeans himself by retailing this stuff, in my view.
June 29th, 2008 at 8:13 pm
I wouldn’t offer it, even if my life depended on it. War is war jaffa.
June 29th, 2008 at 8:16 pm
D4J, It would leave you very short of brain cells as well.
June 29th, 2008 at 8:18 pm
Still, would leave more than the Labour caucus .
June 29th, 2008 at 8:20 pm
Jafapete:
Are you employed as an academic by any chance?
June 29th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
Nomestradamus, Have been. So I can speak with some authority on this. Most meta-analysis of the links between “leadership” measures (usually tranformational leadership) and organisational performance find a correlation coefficient of around .1, which isn’t worth bothering about in the real world. Hence bogus. But these people get a great deal of media attention, nonetheless. So, it’s a sad day when normally very sensible people start quoting them.
June 29th, 2008 at 8:31 pm
Jafapete:
Thank you. Two follow-on questions from that.
1. Were you in NZ in the lead-up to the last election, and if so, did you see Johansson’s media contributions?
2. I’m familiar with basic leadership theory, but I’m not sure where you’re finding this theory “retailed” in Ng’s column – except perhaps in Ng’s characterisation of Johansson as a “leadership expert” (I strongly disagree with this characterisation, as he’s more in the politics field, but that’s another issue).
June 29th, 2008 at 8:31 pm
“The basic truth is the motives behind the EFA were a crude attempt to fuck over National and critics of the Government, and help gain a permanent grasp on power”.
I absolutely agree DPF. What Clark did here was a totally shameful attempt to subvert democracy. I hope that
this lesson is not lost in the history of early 21st century NZ politics. May it be her legacy.
June 29th, 2008 at 8:43 pm
Nomestradamus,
1. I was but I don’t recall seeing them.
2. The theory is implicit in the thoughts about “over-arching narrative about purpose” and “[fronting] up over its most unpopular positions”, as you will undoubtedly recognise, upon reflection.
To add something more substantive here, I’d have to take exception to Johansson on the point about the absence of some over-arching narrative about purpose. If nothing else, this governemnt has been about fairness and social justice. After 15 years of neo-liberal reform there was no little demand for this approach, and the government has made good in the promises in this area. It has also been consistently prudent, even when under intense pressure to act irresponsibly on tax cuts and cement a large structural deficit a la George Bush. I think that Johansson’s facts are perhaps a too stylised.
June 29th, 2008 at 9:00 pm
Jafapete:
1. Others may differ, but I believe Johansson was something of a media darling last time (ie often featuring on TV) – at least on TV1. I remember watching some of his interviews, and came to the view (back then) that he’s openly partisan, and Green-leaning. I could be wrong, but that’s how he came across to me.
2. I suspected that the implicit undertone is what you had in mind. But then what about annual ritual of stating the legislative agenda – the so-called speech from the throne?
On your substantive point, if you’re right about the government standing for fairness and social justice, why do you think the polls are showing public dissatisfaction? I’ve said it before, and it’s worth repeating. Labour came to power in 1999 on the back of an “it’s time for change” campaign. In my view, what goes round comes round, and it’s open to National to deploy the same campaign strategy in 2008.
June 29th, 2008 at 9:04 pm
“If nothing else, this governemnt has been about fairness and social justice.”
Two silly mythical concepts that explain much of why NZ is up shit creek without a paddle today. As for Johannson being partisan, obviously you didn’t witness his “independent” commentaries during the last election. Leadership expert?? Pfft. What is it they say? Those who can, do it. Those who can’t, teach it.
June 29th, 2008 at 9:06 pm
Losing your identity seems an easy trap for either major party under MMP
– imagine maintaining any major brand in a rag tag 4 party coalition with a confidence and supply agreement with a 5th. You morph into one uncoordinated mess, sharing the same tar brush
June 29th, 2008 at 9:08 pm
Nomestradamus
1. Don’t watch much TV. It’s crap, satellite included.
2. I don’t think that that ritual makes much of an impact on the punters.
3. The public have banked the fairness. That’s the problem with achieving what you set out to do. It becomes less of a problem. People move onto other problems; currently NZ’s long-term growth. Labour hasn’t done too badly at all on that, but hasn’t sold its achievements terribly well, and got sidetracked by the bureaucrats. Conferences and glossy reports don’t really drive economic growth. Should there be a change of government, and should it pursue some policies that are socially and economically sound, then I hope that it manages the bureaucrats better. Otherwise, all power to the public service and its do-nothing ways.
PS I was a public servant once too.
PPS Yes, some of my facts are overly stylised. But in my defence, I have blogged on some of these points in more depth.
June 29th, 2008 at 9:19 pm
“If nothing else, this government has been about fairness and social justice.”
Lets put this huge fucking lie to rest.
1. Things have not improved for the “underclass” in NZ over the last nine years other than the news they woke up to one morning that informed them that they did not actually exists according to dear corrupt maggot leader.
The gummint has attempted to bribe them with a little of our money but that has hardly worked, we see violent crime on the rise and the overall crime rate spiraling out of control, again dear corrupt maggot leader says this is not the case, what is really happening is that more crime is being reported and in fact the total crime rate is falling which as we all know is a pack of fucking lies.
Given that the “underclass” are the ones who are more than often the victim of this crime wave I wonder how anybody could have the hard neck to say that ‘this gummint is about fairness”
2. Social Justice!, now not being a left wing parasite I only have my own view on socialism and social justice, from what I can gather the term in its purest sense means stealing money from me and giving it to somebody else (usually in return for votes), given that this lot have not passed on 99% of the money they needlessly steal from me every week I am not sure how anybody could say that this gummint is strong on social justice.
As we all know they have squandered most of the stolen money rewarding their party faithful with cushy gummint jobs and bonus’s for union officials.
The reality is that the underclass and middle NZ has been well and truly fucked over by Clark and co.
June 29th, 2008 at 9:29 pm
Social justice!
What about a bit of social justice for all of us?, what about locking up scum who keep robbing, stealing and vandalizing our property, what about taking the low life off the streets, the very same ones who terrorize old people and young mothers with babies.
What about a bit of social justice for us, I am sick of hearing left wing wankers tell me that I have to give more to these low life while they go about their illegal activities every day safe in the knowledge that our piss poor PC police will do nothing about it.
Give us our own version of social justice or there may well be some out there who will start taking the law into their own hands.
June 29th, 2008 at 9:30 pm
Actually can I say I have no problem with anyone being partisan, as long as they are openly so. Its the pretence to objectivity that rankles.
June 29th, 2008 at 9:50 pm
“Social justice” is just another PC term devised by the left in an attempt to distance themselves from perceptions that they are the same old same old commies. Its essentially meaningless, and they are the same old same old commies. Its like saying the blood they have on their hands is red paint. One needs to ask the 100 million citizens who died at the hands of the left’s poster boys last century how they feel about ‘social justice’. Except they can’t answer because they’re all dead.
Like everything to do with the left, its propaganda and style over substance, always in the pursuit of absolute power. The only thing that has changed is that they have developed different strategies in their pursuit of totalitarianism. No more violence. (only because it doesn’t work). Now the way is Gramascian gradualisation, and the suffocating deceit of progressive politics. Its why you’re mad and I’m disgusted and so many other people here are angry at the left. The stench of deceit and political manipulation and propaganda and cronyism and political corruption is just too overpowering. More and more of New Zealand is smelling that horrible odour. The real trouble of course is that with so many good people leaving the country, while Labour’s sector of the electorate continues to drag us all down, we may be too far into the leftist sewer to ever fight our way out. Like Rhodesia, NZ may be sucked into the abyss by a gang of totalitarian socialists who put power above all else.
June 29th, 2008 at 10:03 pm
Keep it up Jafa, I’m pretty confident that if you correlated the number of posts from lefties on this blog talking pompously down to the great unwashed with Labour’s poll ratings over recent years you’d do a damn sight better than 0.1 (although it might be negative).
June 29th, 2008 at 10:37 pm
“If nothing else, this governemnt has been about fairness and social justice.”
It certainly isn’t fair that the state nicks our money and spends it on silly wasteful projects, massive pay rises for state workers, and policies which are clearly bad and simply designed to buy votes. I’m not suggesting that National will be any different (I am somewhat encouraged by the fact that they do talk about state sector waste) but at least we get to whine about a different face.
Social justice, if you mean the term normally used by those of the left, is a terrible misnomer. Roughly speaking I think it says that everyone has a right to enough food, a home, a job, a camel, etc.
The bit that is never answered is the bit at the end – provided by whom. Everyone has a right to food ‘provided by x’. No one has adequately explained who x is, and why he is willing and able to feed, clothe and employ everyone, nor where he gets all his camels.
It is clearly unjust that working people, even those who are barely making ends meet, should pay for those who won’t fend for themselves. In a Orwellian way, social justice in left wing speak probably means something similar to social injustice in English.
If Labour truly stands for fairness and social justice, now is the time for it to stand up and admit a few errors along the way.
June 29th, 2008 at 10:39 pm
^that is so true. I think you’ve just summed up one of Labour’s biggest problems; the spiteful Dr. C.
It didn’t strike me at the time, but to promote the centre piece of your budget (tax cuts) as snookering National really shows that you’ve missed the point entirely.
June 29th, 2008 at 10:55 pm
Jafapete @ 8.43pm: “It has also been consistently prudent, even when under intense pressure to act irresponsibly on tax cuts and cement a large structural deficit …”
You’re parroting Dr Cullen’s repeated claim to fiscal prudence, and it makes no more sense from you than it does from him. I suggest you look at facts such as:
- the inexorable increase in the tax take under Cullen’s stewardship;
- the growing % of GDP attributable to state activity;
- the indecent rate of growth in public servants;
- free-of-interest student loans, introduced for purely political purposes;
- WFF masquerading as “tax credits”, in fact targeted welfare introduced for purely political purposes;
- an additional $5 billion into health without any measurable improvement in state health sector performance;
- an additional $650m for additional MFAT premises and staff, a huge ransom demanded to keep Peters compliant;
- millions of $$$ doled out for a Families Commission, Buy NZ Campaign and similar stunts to hold the Labour-led team together.
Whatever this Government leaves behind as its legacy, don’t expect too many of us to believe or accept the “fiscal prudence” line of propaganda.
June 30th, 2008 at 12:46 am
Jafapete @ 8.43pm: “It has also been consistently prudent, even when under intense pressure to act irresponsibly on tax cuts and cement a large structural deficit …”
I will add to what calendar girl said by pointing out that fiscal prudence would have led to Cullen cutting taxes several years ago and NOT doing it now. It would have led to, if not lower spending increases, then at least close monitoring of the efficiency of expenditure.
Cullen’s otherwise promising legacy of being fiscally prudent went out the window when he released his last poison pill budget. The fact he stood there on budget day smugly telling all about how he screwed over National (and the rest of NZ too, but more importantly a poll-surging, rejuvenated National party) calls into question his entire history as Finance Minister. How much of has apparent prudence was really just political gamesmanship?
For how long was he using the economy of our tiny set of islands in the South Pacific as a political tool? If Labour ever gets back into power, how can the country trust them? Visions of the RBNZ Governor being brought under the direct control of the Finance Minister are not unreasonable.
THAT is Cullen’s legacy.
June 30th, 2008 at 2:28 am
This Labour Government was born out of a belief that the market and big business is there to do people in and the power of the State is needed to counteract that. But Labour have gone too far. Instead of the Government being a partner it is on our back and in our pocket. It bosses us around and takes our money and spends it on wasteful projects. Many people struggle to pay their tax especially those who pay provisional tax, they resent a Government with huge surpluses wasting money. The anti-smacking legislation was probably a statute too far so far as the nanny state syndrome goes. Now anything proposed by the Government is seen as being on people’s backs and is now seen as being very unpopular. What I find curious is Helen Clark seems to be in denial about all this. She continues on auto-pilot though the grudging tax cuts were a late admission by her that there was a point here. But the nanny state is falling on deaf ears, she just thinks it is a National Party beat-up.
June 30th, 2008 at 4:04 am
It’s telling that someone like J Johansson is making comment about Clarks lack of leadership in the current CRISIS that laybore is experiencing. Academics generally don’t make predictions they report the known facts.
The verve, the drive, the intuitive link to the pulse of the nation has gone from the laybore strategy unit – either that or the thieving fuckers no longer have the cash to employ PR and market research firms to gain a compass bearing on public opinion.
June 30th, 2008 at 4:59 am
Labour is finished!
We’re just waiting to see how hard we laugh at the pending annihilation of the Labour party. Hels legacy is going to be a shocker. She’ll disappear into obscurity never to be heard again. No one likes a loser. Clark will be despised by most and an embarrassment to the rest when the final bell tolls later this year. Thankfully there will be no second career for Clark to pursue (Beyond that of landlord).
Thanks for nothing Hels. Don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out.
June 30th, 2008 at 6:40 am
Labour were screwed the moment they allowed themselves to be taken over by middle class lesbians and gays.
June 30th, 2008 at 8:23 am
I agree Labour is very middle class people with lifestyles quite outside their middle and lower income base. Human rights for gays is a worthy project. But Labour has made this centre stage meanwhile they want to boss parents around about how to raise children and what they should have in their lunches and what light bulbs to have and the beer fridge is banned. All these petty measures while promoted by the Greens are seen as Labour’s issues because it is LABOUR who will make them happen. So it is Labour who are taking the political stick. But there is much els:e the waste and mismanagement in the public sector is enormous. The Mary-Ane Thompson affair is symptomatic of this, the public service under Labour is corrupt and greedy. But there are other matters like the electoral finance Act, the grudging tax cuts, fatigue, arrogance and its time for change.
June 30th, 2008 at 8:36 am
It’s quite simple.
Discover an previously unnaccounted for cash surplus, due to an accounting error or ‘bad advice’ one month before the election, offer to use it to release GST from fuel, and a possible one-off windfall for everyone in ‘WFF’ and wait for the votes to roll in. Why not? buying votes worked last time with student loans…………
If teh electorate fall for it of course.
June 30th, 2008 at 8:57 am
Would Labour have given tax cuts if National had not promised them first? Of course not. Cullen’s gloating at the usurping of this National policy is misplaced for in the eye of those who want tax cuts, this is simply a response to National, and not a response to the wishes of the electorate.
June 30th, 2008 at 9:28 am
“His political opponents certainly will not give him the benefits of any doubts, and nor will the media.”
Above excerpt from the Herald editorial today on John Key- quite true of course. Such “benefits” are usually only extended to members of the Labour party. As to be expected, the Herald editorial zeros in on supposed gaffes made by John Key over the past few months. Of course the perceptions regarding these gaffes were all driven by Labour party strategists wanting to attack Key, and the Herald, in its highlighting of these pitiful non events, duly played its usual part in the attack process. “Usual” meaning it kept its promise to Labour to enthusiastically run with any anti-Key talking points the left can come up with, no matter how worthless in actuality.
Audrey Young, a journalist with the Herald, filed a complaint to the Electoral Commission concerning a National Party flier, alleging it was in breach of the EFA. Except she ain’t just a journalist. She’s the Herald’s POLITICAL EDITOR. The Herald management would have to have known of this event. No objective news reporting organisation would allow such a circumstance, and it is my opinion that if the Herald ever wanted to regain some credibility with its readers, the least it could do would be to remove Young from the position of POLITICAL EDITOR. It won’t though, because the Herald and its coterie of Klark arse licking so called journalists doesn’t care about its reputation as much as it wants to see Labour re-elected.
Part of the reason that the Labour Party has fallen so far in the polls is that thanks to commentary from bloggers, the mainstream media’s role in keeping Labour in power has been well and truly spotlighted. Now the public understand more of how they have been manipulated by a partisan gang of leftists posing as objective commentators, they’re angry about it. The events remarked upon above will just increase that anger, and bring the media into more disrepute. Nobody likes frauds.
June 30th, 2008 at 9:36 am
Johansson: “The real weakness of Clark is that there is no over-arching explanation as to what the purpose of her government is. We’ve seen this right through the three terms.”
Pretty low grade analysis.
Labour’s problems are not ones of leadership but those of longevity. Clark still polls well in the preferred PM stakes. As for “fronting unpopular positions” few PM’s at the end of their run would follow this advice. And of course Clark has fronted unpopular Government positions – but only to axe them in accord with the popular will – this added to her mystic as a “strong” leader.
One should ignore the chopped and changed political sloganeering – “closing the gaps” “knowledge economy” “sustainability” “carbon neutral” – all Governments get into this stuff all the time and voters are by and large immune to it.
It’s a bit rough to ride Clark for her poor rhetorical skills; her lack of an explicit and attractive meta narrative when National likewise offers none (except “we’re not Labour just Labour’s programme”) – thus this is unlikely to be the cause of her problems or the reason for National’s success vis-à-vis Labour.
It’s not hard to workout what the over arching political proposition of the 5th Labour Government is: status quo. They have spent up large to defend the welfare state while leaving most of the economic fundamentals they inherited as they found them. They made changes to the industrial relations framework in the face of cultural changes that makes unions less important irrespective of the legislative framework.
Their most adventurous policy innovative was to commence the privatisation of retirement income through kiwisaver.
Labour’s positioning has been an over compensation for the trauma previous economic reforms – it also fits with Clark’s innate conservativeness. The strength and flexibility of the New Zealand economy as a result of those reforms coupled with good global economic conditions as resulted in a growth of the state from around $38b to $60b. But the good times are over and voters are feeling this.
The “status quo” has been politically good for Labour – in fact it’s so good that National has adopted it. In a political environment where both big parties are pushing the same product, it’s hard to get one’s dander up in defense of the existing Government and the alternative team is at least led by someone who is new, inoffensive and likable like your neighbour.
June 30th, 2008 at 10:00 am
They lost 5% on s59, a further 5% on the EFB, the world economy is going south and power cuts seem likely this winter. National is playing to the middle is led by John Key, brokering compromise on s59 and looking a voice of reason on electoral finance.
June 30th, 2008 at 10:27 am
Lee C (8:36) has it. This government will attempt to bribe/steal it’s way back to power.
As much as I love the current poll margin, the wallet-stress around NZ right now simply makes bribes more effective.
June 30th, 2008 at 10:32 am
IMHO good leadership like are good things is really very simple The good leader listens to all the citizens and then scoops up their collective ideas and ideals and paints a word picture that most of the citizens understand and buy into .
The leader then realising they cant do it all themselves creates an environment where the citizesn have both the power and the responsibility to make the word picture a reality each completing one small piece just like a paint by numbers picture.
the good leader constantly monitors progress and makes adjusts to the word picture to reflect the views of the citizens.
the good leader realises that whilst they must listen to minorities they must not allow themselves to be captured by these groups and diverted from the main objective,
the good leader knows thye cannot be all things to all citizens all of the time and dont try to be so.
their strength is in their ability to explain why and also why not.
But ultimately they are the ring master and the orchestra conductor combined. Their success is in the hands of the citizens.
And above all they are humble and say It was the citizens that achieved the goal
June 30th, 2008 at 10:33 am
expect the poll lead to go higher now the increasingly shrill Nicky “There’s A Boogeyman In My Wardrobe” Hager has discovered – shock, horror – that John Key uses image consultants!
June 30th, 2008 at 10:41 am
As I hold both Keith Ng and Jon Johansson in high-regard, I am pleased with Ng’s piece and Johansson’s points and I agree with much of what Johansson says. They both do excellent work. I may not agree with everything that they say, but you must admit they are both concise and comprehensive in their work.
Does anyone know if Ng has a blog?
June 30th, 2008 at 10:59 am
Hey Jafa and Nomestradamus – good to see considered debate here.
Jafa, I do think that Johansson’s background is quite a bit broader than the management/psychology take on leadership. His last book was on Muldoon vs Lange, and takes a pretty strongly biographical approach and puts things into historical context. It’s not the flow-chart and matricies type of leadership study at all.
The idea around a narrative of social justice is interesting. I can appreciate that’s how they want to see themselves, but I’m not sure if anyone else would see it that way. Not even their detractors are picking on that (e.g. We don’t even hear: “Oh, they just care about bloody beneficiaries and dole bludgers”, etc.).
June 30th, 2008 at 11:01 am
Oh they just care about bloody beneficiaries and dole bludgers. There. That’s taken care of that oversight.
June 30th, 2008 at 11:03 am
That Hagar is such a pathetic lunatic. I see the PM is happy to attack National based on his info, accusing National of a grubby campaign. I actually can’t think of anything close to grubby coming from National, but watch the cat-fighting start from Labour.
He’ll do tremendous damage to the credibility of the Greens…
June 30th, 2008 at 11:04 am
How to recover.
The budget is good, it spends money like a drunken sailor on health and offers tax cuts to the middle income swing vote. National will offer more tax cuts and less spending, Labour can attack the spending cuts on health (think of the children) issues and poverty (think of the children) issues as unnecessarily cruel. And they might be able to blame most of the current economic slowdown on the world economy. How effectively they do this will make or break them, they’ll need a minimum 8% gain out of National. This is going to need a miracle.
They could flag the Maori seats away, concentrate on the party vote and hope for a 6 seat overhang of Maori MPs for an effective 2.5% swing.
They can rely on the Greens to push socialism – double the minimum wage and double the dole and double the DPB – which Labour can moderately oppose to win credit with middle income NZ, whilst sewing up a Green deal for post election. This will give somewhere for the hard left to go whilst Labour plumb the centre and will win the Greens the old Alliance vote of 2%.
They can help Winston win Tauranga by staging a falling out over some pensioner program closer to the election whilst pre-offering big Baubles to get them another 4 – 5% in another coalition.
June 30th, 2008 at 11:12 am
Hoolian – Keith’s blog is http://publicaddress.net/onpoint
June 30th, 2008 at 11:20 am
not to mention that clark/cullen will decimate key/whoeverin the/any political debates..
not to mention the still high number of undecideds..
not to mention how the grn/maori party vote will grow..
not to mention that national from here will go backwards..as soft/protest votes fade away..
then there are the wild cards..
.. ‘wodger’ douglas being one of them….(there to give key some ‘spine’..eh..?…)
he’ll scare more than a few of those soft/scareable current national supporters..
then we have to remember how just three years ago this same crew lied thru their teeth all thru that campaign..
..whereas it is documented they had plannned rightwing revolution..part two..
pray tell what is different this time..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
June 30th, 2008 at 11:33 am
Gosh philu You are going to be disappointed come the election debates when the Prime Minister gets sliced and diced. Watch her struggle to deal with questions on the economy as Mr and Mrs NZ wtach her on the tellie (thats if they dont have a power cut at the time)
Mr and Mrs will be thinking about their mortgage the weekly supermarket bill the price and the pumps
Meanwhile Clark will be blathering on about hos its her and Mikeys fault Dolly did it.
And all JK has to do it remind the good citizens about how she said she was a victim of her own success and how Mikey was touted as the Finance guru .
Prediction Some stage before election 08 the Nats will hit the 60 point mark and the Socialists will dip to the 25 point mark but recover to 30 points with the Nats finishinhg on 53/55 points
June 30th, 2008 at 11:44 am
Phul
“not to mention that clark/cullen will decimate key/whoeverin the/any political debates”
What evidence do you have for this claim?, at the last election Key made Cullen look like a nasty evil little red faced man when the two were interviewed on Close up, Cullen was not able to answer Key’s questions or rebuff any point he made, at least twice Cullen had to be “saved” by “Socialist” Susan Woods.
June 30th, 2008 at 11:47 am
While I am on about the election, I do hope that Clark does not call an early one, I love watching the left as they lurch toward inevitable defeat.
Just when you think they cannot get any nastier or evil they outdo themselves.
June 30th, 2008 at 11:47 am
Redbaiter, you said:
Part of the reason that the Labour Party has fallen so far in the polls is that thanks to commentary from bloggers, the mainstream media’s role in keeping Labour in power has been well and truly spotlighted.
Do you really think that’s true? What % of the NZ voting public reads blogs, do you think?
June 30th, 2008 at 11:58 am
Keith Ng: “Jafa, I do think that Johansson’s background is quite a bit broader …”
Thanks for your considered reply. I see that he is in fact a political scientist, so I owe him a big apology for mistaking him for a business school denizen. (I could blame the phrasing in the original article…)
Interestingly, most people I talk to — not a random sample of the entire population I know, but including some moderately conservative types — speak highly of the first & second terms. They also tend to agree that public policy settings became much fairer during those years. I could go through the litany from the ERA to WFF, but kiwiblog isn’t the place to do that.
June 30th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
How to recover?
Well a rudder, some power, a willing crew and and agreed destination would help.
Otherwise it’s “Hi ho, hi ho, it’s on to the rocks we go. Out of the way you cowardly women and children, the Labour crew want your lifeboats”
June 30th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
“What % of the NZ voting public reads blogs, do you think?”
Enuff. Otherwise the media and their Labour mates would not have started their own blogs.
June 30th, 2008 at 12:21 pm
Philu, it is a bit inconvenient for your narrative on debates between politicians, that everyone on your side from Clark and Cullen down lacks the gonads to take up Roger Douglas’ ongoing challenges for just that…………can’t have the masses getting to hear some intelligent arguments now, can we………….much more convenient to have them believing the myths created by the great Leftwing propaganda machine that is the mainstream media and the state education system, eh?
I hope Redbaiter’s comments on the effectiveness of the blogosphere represent the emerging reality of the situation. I don’t think we are quite in Drudge Report and “Powerline” territory YET in terms of the ability of our blogs to keep the MSM honest and bring down weaselly lefty “news” presenters like Dan Rather………in NZ, Dan Rather would probably still be fronting his old show and the public would still be getting sucked in on a daily basis by his lies about the President and other conservative politicians……..
June 30th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
Well, Labour can start to unviel the kind of cynical power mongers that the National Party are using to market “brand Key”. I’m sure most people would be disgusted to learn that National are using these people to “sell” the Party.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/marlboroughexpress/4601215a6422.html
June 30th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
“can’t have the masses getting to hear some intelligent arguments now, can we”
Just think without the blogoshphre no-one would ever get to hear you tell us that the theory of evolution is a left-wing conspiracy or ratbleaters view that everyone (but him) is a commie scumbug who needs to be shot.
Why oh why does the mmmmm sssssss mmmmmmm ignore these voices?
June 30th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
The state education system teaches capitalism. It leaves students unaware that alternatives even exist, let alone socialist alternatives. The state education system is very obviously indoctrinating kids with capitalism. That’s right-wing indoctrination.
June 30th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
Nome you’re just a yellow backed cheat in failing to point out that the words you use to justify your hate driven smear campaign against John Key and his advisors were in fact written by Nicky Hager. If unprincipled amoral scum like you were somehow forced to argue honestly here, we’d never see a word posted.
June 30th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
Sproull grovel for the attention you obsess over somewhere else you sickening narcissist.
June 30th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
Redbaiter, Redbaiter,
You charming young satyr,
How long will it be till we kiss?
Your prose is poetic,
Your rambling noetic,
But you had me at “narcissist”.
June 30th, 2008 at 12:37 pm
The truth is the truth bleater. Crosby-Textor is a cynical outfit that reduces politics to exploiting prejudice, fear and hate to avoid debating policy. All for no greater purpose than slipping the agenda of the very small and wealthy elite through the back door.
I really didn’t think the National Party would go this low. I’m just sadend and disgusted that they’ve bought this brand of political marketing to NZ.
June 30th, 2008 at 12:40 pm
Sonic you poor uneducated son of stone farmers, there is no hyphen in “no one.” Ask your buddy Jafaboy. He’s good on grammar.
June 30th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
Crosby-Textor are the ones who had to pay a bunch of money to an Australian Labor candidate because they’d set up push-polling telling people that she supported abortions after nine months. The Labor candidate was paid £34,000.
Does anyone have the names of the firms Labour hires for PR?
June 30th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
“The truth is the truth bleater. Crosby-Textor is ..”
Blah blah blah.. snip the usual smears and hate, presented in the utter deceit that they represent objective fact.
You wouldn’t know the truth if it was up you with an armful of chairs. Your whole political strategy is based on misinformation lies propaganda and smears. Fables and legends designed to appeal to the irrational, the psychologically insecure and the brain damaged. Your attacks on Crosby Textor are merely propaganda, and another salient example of the left’s obsession with crushing any individual or organisation who stands firm against socialism’s powerful political and social ascendancy.
June 30th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
Roger
“is a cynical outfit that reduces politics to exploiting prejudice, fear and hate to avoid debating policy”
You mean they use terms like “rich prick” and indulge in the politics of envy?, do they also believe in persecuting perfectly decent sectors of our society for political gain such as the Exclusive Brethren?
As usual you are talking out if your arse, perhaps you should reserve your faux outrage for the Labour party who are well versed in “reducing politics to exploiting prejudice, fear and hate to avoid debating policy”
June 30th, 2008 at 12:56 pm
Too true Ryan. Of course bleater will just paid the money for no reason at all. He also denies the fact that Crosby-Textor cropped the “boat people” photos to make it appear as if the refugees had thrown their children in to the sea to drown, when in fact their were adults also in the water, and they were trying to flee a sinking ship…
This is what the National Party wants to make NZ politics about. Think about it people. Do you really want to support this party?
June 30th, 2008 at 12:59 pm
Roger
Labour support theft, late term abortions (up to nine months) gay adoption and the persecution of minorities, do you really want to support these people?
June 30th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
Which minorities, Bruv?
June 30th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
“Do you really want to support this party?”
Apparently they do, and they couldn’t give a damn about some tired old hate and smear campaign about a non event beaten up by the same old same old power obsessed commie propagandists. (getting into panic mode).
June 30th, 2008 at 1:08 pm
Ryan
The EB…have you heard of them?
June 30th, 2008 at 1:10 pm
Come on Roger, I really want to see how you defend Clark and her constant habit of “reducing politics to exploiting prejudice, fear and hate to avoid debating policy”
June 30th, 2008 at 1:11 pm
The EB…have you heard of them?
You don’t think they were kind of asking for it when they tried to deceive so many people during an election?
June 30th, 2008 at 1:13 pm
Sproull, maybe for once you could say something other than ask a dumbfuck dishonestly premised question.
June 30th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
“It is true that Labour has almost swapped goals every few months, and with none of them really being achieved.”
Can’t tell you how disappointing the above is, you don’t read many throwaway lines from DPF, and there are very few Kiwiblog topics to which it seems appropriate – and sufficient – to simply respond
WTF EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
June 30th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Ryan
Is that a bit like saying that the Jews asked for the Holocaust?
The EB did nothing wrong Ryan, all they did was tell the truth and as we all know dear corrupt maggot leader just will not allow that.
June 30th, 2008 at 1:16 pm
So National is “accussed” of hiring some short term advisors.
Yet Labour has had H2 beavering away on Level 9 for decades to scheme and munipulate the public.
Its a bit like comparing Little Red Riding Hood to Himmler isn’t it?
June 30th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
Bruv,
You’re comparing the EB to Jewish people in the Holocaust? I think that’s belittling what Jews went through under the Nazis.
Do you believe that the EB intentionally tried to avoid people knowing they were behind the pamphlets?
June 30th, 2008 at 1:31 pm
“Its a bit like comparing Little Red Riding Hood to Himmler isn’t it?”
Yeah, well said. How many people work in Helen Klark’s PR dept? I heard a rumour it was more than the staff numbers at TV One and TV3 newsrooms combined. Also, note about half the leading posts on the first page of the Standard are personal attacks on Key? Typical. Same old same old hate smears and personal destruction that befalls anyone who stands in the way of the left’s obsession with political power.
June 30th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
Hey! and speaking of hate smears and personal obsessions…
June 30th, 2008 at 1:35 pm
I sincerely hope there is no way for Labour to recover from its slump in the polls, and wish it’s heavily defeated at the next election. I’ve had enough of socialism NZ-style.
On the other hands, my hopes of National being any better are slim. The Tories come across as appeasers, timid, vacuous and lacking conviction to take the hard measures required (i.e., the complete overhaul of the welfare system, the dismantling of useless bureaucratic organisations, etc. )
June 30th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
“Do you believe that the EB intentionally tried to avoid people knowing they were behind the pamphlets?”
More dipshit questions, and totally off topic as usual. (To answer, no, and any rational person would have to agree. They had their names and addresses on (not false as the left allege) and were in the same format as similar pamphlets put out by the EBs in other countries. Anyone with a brain would understand that if they were trying to hide anything, they would not have done those two things. That’s why YOU have to ask the question Ryann. You’re a completely braindead leftist propaganda sucking robot writing uninformed infantile trash.
June 30th, 2008 at 1:38 pm
Just asking, Redbaiter. Thank you for answering.
Please be polite.
June 30th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
RMM, perhaps. But it’s personal views expressed using personal time and money. Unike the Govrnemnt. Which uses your money and mine for their organised, hate-filled propaganda
June 30th, 2008 at 1:43 pm
Show us a piece of **hate-filled** government propaganda.
Go on!
PS: I would have said the real high-profile campaigns of this Govt have been about overcoming hatred rather than promoting it. Most of the opposition to the prostitution reform and civil unions bills were of the form “No, you can’t do that, because, ummm, well, because my God and I hate (prostitutes/homosexuals)…”
June 30th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
Chinless scarf wearers
June 30th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
I’ve never understood that one. Where does “chinless scarf wearers” come from? Is it originally a British thing?
June 30th, 2008 at 1:51 pm
“You’re a completely braindead leftist propaganda sucking robot writing uninformed infantile trash.”
That could so be a headline in the Sunday Star Times!
More proof that the only reason ratbleater does not have a regular slot in our mass media is the vast left-wing conspiracy!
June 30th, 2008 at 1:51 pm
I don’t know where “chinless scarf wearers” comes from, but it’s awesome!!!
It sure put me in my place…
June 30th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
RMM – Do you really believe that Labout don’t hate John Key? Of course they do mate. It’s oozes our of every pore. He represents the very biggest threat to reign of, um, absolute power that they’ve ever faced. The second biggest threat is their own hubris… but that’s beyond dealing with. So knives it is for Key. And it looks like the voters are a bit sick of it.
June 30th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
Key is so vapid and colourless it is pretty impossible to have any strong feeings about him either way.
June 30th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
Yes, but about that “hate-filled” propaganda you were telling me about?
I.E. is it something tangible that you and I can ACTUALLY see and physically pick up and read, or is it something more IMAGINARY perhaps?
June 30th, 2008 at 2:04 pm
Here is how Labour can recover after being heavily defeated at the election. Establish an internal investigation to reveal the lies, liars, deceits, deceivers etc and publically name them with facts so they may take their rightful place in prison. Then spend a decade or two figuring out how to form a government which puts the interests of the NZ people first.
June 30th, 2008 at 2:06 pm
RRM: Show us a piece of **hate-filled** government propaganda
The anti Exclusive Brethren campaign the Labour Party and the Green Party ran last election.
The leaflets threatening to evict people from their homes.
etc.
Not “government” per se, but by the parties forming the government.
June 30th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
“Please be polite.”
To leftists?? While they rob cheat lie and grasp at power like desperate yellow dogs?? Yeah sure, good joke. BTW Ryann, I know well why you Labour supporters would rather beat up issues like who John Key is using for PR. Why the hell would you ever want to talk about anything important like cost of living, freedom of speech, mortgages, taxation, and the rest of it??
With you guys, its always the same deceitful strategy. Try and distract from the real issues and glue some dishonesty on your opponents by means of false and trumped up allegations. Just the same old same old Stalinist behaviour patterns.
June 30th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
“Show us a piece of **hate-filled** government propaganda”
Watch the way dear corrupt maggot leader spits out the word “rich”, it is a bit rich really considering she is a landlord and therefore profits from the work of others.
June 30th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
Whoever is pretending to be Ratbleater, give us a break and stop being so obviously taking the micky.
Anyway back to the post
“. If National gains office and wants to retain office it is going to have to have a couple of simple goals which it can measure progress against at every election.”
How about
1) Have we delivered enough for our shadowy anonymous donors so that they will continue to bankroll our dodgy right-wing political “consultants”?
June 30th, 2008 at 2:16 pm
Getting back to simple, measurable goals …. I like the ACT ones – $500 more a week in your pocket, beat Australia, bring our children home. Not bad. I see in the UK the conservatives are putting forward real health goals (like % targets for survival after a stroke) rather than patsy process goals (reduce waiting lists).
June 30th, 2008 at 2:16 pm
bruv: Watch the way dear corrupt maggot leader spits out the word “rich”,
But does this actually happen??? Clark does tend to talk down to interviewers, but I’ve never noticed what you describe…
June 30th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
It is funny watching someone call another hate-filled while describing them as a “maggot”
Still big bruv is not the brightest.
June 30th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
RMM – Helen Clark called the members of the Exclusive Bretheren ‘chinless scarf wearers’ on national television, multiple channels with millions of eyes and ears as my witness. Think that qualifies as ACTUAL, and not IMAGINARY as you put it.
June 30th, 2008 at 2:23 pm
“Helen Clark called the members of the Exclusive Bretheren ‘chinless scarf wearers’ on national television”
Well in fact she did not, Trevor Mallard did.
Do you ever tire of being wrong getstaffed?
June 30th, 2008 at 2:30 pm
Sonic
Do you ever get sick of telling lies?
June 30th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
BB:
What’s wrong with same-sex couples bringing up kids? Also, abortions 9 months into pregnancy? I’d like to see you substantiate that claim.
oh then there’s the poor Brethren bosses who tried to undermine our democratic process with a large, faceless and secretive smear campaign. Oh, and don’t tell me they didn’t try to avoid attention, otherwise they would have put more than just initials and po-box numbers on the leaflets. Also, it’s a matter of record that the Brethren in Tasmania and Sweden were only found to have undertaken expensive, secretive propaganda campaigns after elections there. It’s clearly their MO. These kind of people need to be brought out in to the light, so everyone can see them for who they are – a cult who force parents to disown their own children for having lunch with non-cult members. They want to secretively foist their values on us, and Labour were rightly having none of it.
June 30th, 2008 at 2:37 pm
To leftists?? While they rob cheat lie and grasp at power like desperate yellow dogs?? Yeah sure, good joke. BTW Ryann, I know well why you Labour supporters would rather beat up issues like who John Key is using for PR. Why the hell would you ever want to talk about anything important like cost of living, freedom of speech, mortgages, taxation, and the rest of it??
With you guys, its always the same deceitful strategy. Try and distract from the real issues and glue some dishonesty on your opponents by means of false and trumped up allegations. Just the same old same old Stalinist behaviour patterns.
I’m not a Labour supporter. Nor a Stalinist.
And I’m not beating up John Key’s use of the PR company. I pointed out one recorded instance of that company acting dishonestly, and I asked for names of Labour’s PR companies of choice, so that I could look for similar dishonesty amongst them.
And in answer to your first question, yes, please be polite to everyone, even people who don’t agree with you on everything.
June 30th, 2008 at 2:40 pm
Poor big bruv, belives his own propaganda.
Mallard called the EB “chinless scarf wearers, not Clarke”
http://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&q=chinless+scarf+wearers%2Bmallard&meta=
I was aware you were not the brightest BB, but today you seem even slower than usual.
Been taking the stupid pills again?
June 30th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Utter crap. What they did was point out some facts about the Green policies. But it’s the same old stuff from your socialists. Denigrate the messenger and hope the message (truth?) doesn’t get traction.
For the record I think a lot of EB practices are weird and cult-like. That does not stop them being permitted to have a say in this supposedly democratic country. If it did, then it should similarly stop the Greens who are also weird and cult-like.
June 30th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
getstaffed,
Do you believe they coordinated with the National Party in putting together their leaflet campaign?
June 30th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
“otherwise they would have put more than just initials (on the leaflets)”
A lie. The left are always lying and smearing.
June 30th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
Ryan, piss off with your never ending false allegations disguised as questions. Coward.
June 30th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
“Helen Clark called the members of the Exclusive Bretheren ‘chinless scarf wearers’ on national television, multiple channels with millions of eyes and ears as my witness.”
Still awaiting a withdrawal or some proof of that getstaffed.
I’m getting called a liar for pointing out that Mallard said it not Clarke, care to clarify?
June 30th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
Redbaiter,
Please be polite. I am not disguising allegations as questions. I am asking if someone believes a particular allegation. How do you propose I ask whether or not someone believes an allegation without using a question that mentions that allegation?
June 30th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
You really have to draw the line at using private correspondence being hacked in to. Hagar is a burglar. The Parliamentary Service obviously has inadequate security for emails…and why would Clark care when she’s looked after by Ministerial Services?
I note that instead of being critical of a security breach, she’s going on about a “grubby ” campaign the Nats will run…Wouldn’t surprise me if she wasn’t donkey deep in the loop.
June 30th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
“That does not stop them being permitted to have a say in this supposedly democratic country”
Who’s saying they shouldn’t? The Greens are made up of a broad cross section of society. Everyone from business owners to activists. They have the most robust internal democratic process of any parliamentary party in NZ. If anything they’re the least cult-like party. Cults usually have top-down power structures. National has the most authoritarian internal power structure of all the parties – i.e. the leader selects the cabinet (much like the soviet autocrats selected the own mates to sit in the polit- bureau). In this respect National’s the most cult-like of all the parties.
“What they did was point out some facts about the Green policies.”
They said that Green policies would harm the environment more than the present state of play. Obvuiosly that’s bogus. i.e. you tax pollution and watch it reduce.
“Denigrate the messenger and hope the message (truth?) doesn’t get traction.”
Nah, us socialists don’t use Crosby-Textor.
June 30th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
Ohhhh, he was talking about the headscarves when he called them “chinless scarf-wearers”. How completely inappropriate.
June 30th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
“oh then there’s the poor Brethren bosses who tried to undermine our democratic process with a large, faceless and secretive smear campaign.”
There you go again proving our very point.
They wrote and distributed a pamphlet that had at most a couple of insignificant factual errors, but you call it a smear campaign. You are in hysterics over a pamphlet 99% of people in NZ wouldnt even have heard of, which the other 1% would have ignored, and which certainly wouldnt have had as detrimental an impact on our democratic process than the blatant self serving EFB.
The Labour and Green Parties had a well orchestrated scare campaign to con simpleminded idiots, like Nome, into championing a true threat to democracy. Didnt they do well?
That may just be their biggest con yet, convincing a significant proportion of the population that the EB represented a risk to our democratic process, but that the EFB didnt!
June 30th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Ryan, The ‘truth’ and how events are spun by the media are usually two very different things. My personal view is there was no co-ordination, and in fact National made it clear that they would not endorse or support the EBs efforts. Actually that sounds like democracy at work to me: individuals and groups having their say. IMHO we want more of this engagement in political life from all cross sections of NZ society. Instead we have a government that seem hell bent on shutting down political discourse. Why is that?
June 30th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Roger
So let me get this right, if you agitate against the government you are a “large and faceless” yet if you support the govt you are called a union.
It also seems that you condone the persecution of minorities if they dare speak out against dear corrupt maggot leader.
The facts are Roger that the EB did NOTHING wrong, there leaflet was 100% factual.
June 30th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
“The Greens are made up of a broad cross section of society.”
HAHAHAHA!
According to Nome, the Greens poll 5% but represent a broad cross section of society. Yet National, which polls at over 50%, doesnt.
“They said that Green policies would harm the environment more than the present state of play.”
Based upon the fact that they propped up a Labour government that had a terrible record on the environment. PERFECTLY REASONABLE ANALYSIS.
They made the point that if you voted Green, you voted for a Labour dominated coalition. And while the Greens CLAIM to be all for the environment, their actual results leave a lot to be desired.
June 30th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
getstaffed is that your admission of being 100% wrong?
“whatever”
“you’re welcome to call me a liar”
No I think I’ll stick to calling you an idiot who thinks nobody will notice that he is just making stuff up.
Thats twice now I’ve caught you out getstaffed, remember, everyone is entitled to thier own opinions but not their own facts.
1/10, must try harder.
June 30th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
getstaffed,
Well, the reasoning is that because money equals political influence, and we have an ideal of political equality, the system should include checks and balances that restrict the ability of wealthy individuals and groups to have more political influence than unwealthy individuals and groups.
Do you believe the emails and memos allegedly exposed by Hager to be complete fabrications? (The ones that indicate collusion between National and the Exclusive Brethren.)
June 30th, 2008 at 3:11 pm
I dont know why everyone is so upset about Trevor Mallard (please note getstaffed) slagging off the EB. After all since they do not read newspapers, watch TV or log into the internet, they don’t even know about it.
In fact has anyone told them that they wasted all that money last time?
June 30th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
and if anyone was wondering where key ‘came from’..and ‘what he did’..
(this illuminating comment was posted at frogblog..
“..He has worked for some of the most despicable and corrupt banks in the world ..The bankers trust and Merrill Lynch.
He has been involved in currency raids such as the NZ dollar in 87..and in the Asian currency crisis in 97.
He has been the head of the European department for Bonds and Derivatives..products developed by the bankers trust..
..and currently causing the sub prime crisis.
Additionally he has made it to international head of the global division for Foreign exchange for Merrill Lynch from 1999 until march 2001.
He was an upon invitation advisor of the privately owned Federal reserve of New York.
This is not a position you get if you are not completely and utterly devoid of conscience and integrity.
I wouldn’t be surprised if he got that top job as a reward for the role Merrill Lynch played in one of the biggest hedge funds to loot the Asian countries..and by extension the damage done to New Zealand.
It was in his role as specialist in south Asian countries that made him attractive to Merrill Lynch after all..”
(whoar..!..eh..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
June 30th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
Lie number 1751 from Sonic
“since they do not read newspapers”
So not only are you a person who thinks that persecuting your political enemy is acceptable you also seem happy to spread blatant lies.
Either that or you are ignorant….which one is it Sonic?
June 30th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Phul
Keep out of this, you would be better off using your time to find a job, in fact as your employer I instruct you to get off here, ring WINZ and tell them that you want to re join the workforce.
Now hurry up about it please.
June 30th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
“According to Nome, the Greens poll 5% but represent a broad cross section of society. Yet National, which polls at over 50%, doesnt.”
Another lie. Where did I say that National isn’t made up of a broad cross section of society?
“Based upon the fact that they propped up a Labour government”
That’s not the result of their policies, but their lack of strategic position. Also, you’re an idiot if you think National’s policies would have resulted in lower GHG emissions, or better environmental conservation – i.e. they cut DOC’s budget in the 1990s, currently propose gutting the RMA, and have opposed every attempt by the govt to introduce GHG-cutting legislation i.e. “fart tax” and ETS).
“They wrote and distributed a pamphlet that had at most a couple of insignificant factual errors”
It was a secretive smear campaign. They were outed for it and National rightly paid for not being up-front about their meetings with the EB and their email correspondences in which they discussed the pamphlets in relation to National Party election strategy. John Key says that he just “never opened” the emails about the “possible $1.2 million parallel campaign”. Sure slippery, whatever.
Fortuantely the EFA precludes this kind of secretive anti-democratic campaign.
June 30th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
You called me a liar for saying that the “chinless scarf wearers’ came from mallard not Clarke, so forgive me if I am not surprised that you do not realise my comment above was intended as a joke.
Not the sharpest knife in the box our little chum is he?
June 30th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
Ryan -is there a wealthier group than the one that controls NZ’s treasury?
sonic – you confuse inaccuracies with lies. It’s a common problem for liars.
June 30th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
More false allegations and smears disguised as objective facts from Phil the Parasite. Gawd these people are so brain damaged.
June 30th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
Big bruv:
“So let me get this right, if you agitate against the government you are a “large and faceless”
That’s a deliberate and dishonest misrepresentation of my argument. I said that the campaign was large and faceless,Not th EBs
June 30th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
I didnt call you a liar getstaffed, I called you an idiot. Do try and keep up.
your original post
?”Helen Clark called the members of the Exclusive Bretheren ‘chinless scarf wearers’ on national television, multiple channels with millions of eyes and ears as my witness.
me, er no she did not
you “whatever”
Tell me are you and BB competing for making the stupidest post of the year, if so I’d have to say you are well, well ahead.
Well done.
June 30th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
“Fortuantely the EFA precludes this kind of secretive anti-democratic campaign”
Unless your name is Owen Glenn.
June 30th, 2008 at 3:27 pm
“false allegations and smears disguised as objective facts..Gawd these people are so brain damaged.”
In saying that it takes true comedy genuis to contradict yourself quite so totally in one sentence. You will have your work cut out displacing Ratbleater as resident blog clown getstaffed.
.
June 30th, 2008 at 3:27 pm
um..!..why was this comment censored/pulled..?
He has worked for some of the most despicable and corrupt banks in the world The bankers trust and Merrill Lynch. He has been involved in currency raids such as the NZ dollar in 87 and in the Asian currency crisis in 97. He has been the head of the European department for Bonds and Derivatives products developed by the bankers trust and currently causing the sub prime crisis. Additionally he has made it to international head of the global division for Foreign exchange for Merrill Lynch from 1999 until march 2001. He was an upon invitation advisor of the privately owned Federal reserve of New York. This is not a position you get if you are not completely and utterly devoid of conscience and integrity.
I wouldn’t be surprised if he got that top job as a reward for the role Merrill Lynch played in one of the biggest hedge funds to loot the Asian countries and by extension the damage done to New Zealand.
It was in his role as specialist in south Asian countries that made him attractive to Merrill Lynch after all.”
phil(whoar.co.nz)
June 30th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
That secret campaign by Owen Glen that everyone knows about?
Good entry, BB, you are not out of the race yet.
June 30th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Wasn’t the nature of the interest-free loan from Owen Glenn kept secret?
June 30th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
Come on now Sonic, just because numerous posters here have exposed you as a liar and ignorant there is no need to revert to type and become a nasty and evil socialist.
Just admit that like dear corrupt maggot leader you will do “what ever it takes” to see Labour steal another election, and just admit that you do not let the truth get in the way of your out and out bullshit.
June 30th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
“um..!..why was this comment censored/pulled..?”
It wasn’t you dope fucked dipshit. Like all of the similar false allegations and smears by Roger Nome and almost every other amoral unprincipled desperate for power leftist posting here, it still stands as testament to the utter and total ideological corruption of the socialists.
June 30th, 2008 at 3:34 pm
I wish you folks would TOTALLY IGNORE that f@*^w^t sonic.
It enables him to completely hijack the thread.
It’s so bad that YOU TOO start to become a problem.
IGNORE BUTTON TIME FOR sonic.
Please folks…
June 30th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
Phul
Unless you do as requested then you will be issued with an official written warning, now get off here, pick up the phone and call WINZ, remember to tell them that you are ready and able to join the workforce tomorrow.
I also find it hilarious that you of all people could question anybodies integrity.
June 30th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
sonic, you a bit besieged today laddie? that’s too bad. you’ll bounce back.
speaking of which, back on topic, ‘how to recover’. ah yes that’s a conundrum for Labour. Particularly for a government that lost any moral compass ages ago (oh, other than the one that’s stuck pointing to ‘re-election at all costs’). perhaps they could spend some time in opposition first, cutting our the gnarly old dead wood, rejuvenating with some fresh faces, fresh ideas, rediscovering their raison d’être and then seriously contesting the 2017 elections.
.. or they could just try to rort, bribe and manipulate their way back in in 2008. I wonder what they’ll do?
June 30th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
Anyhow, some on the right here are trying to draw a comparison between the racist propaganda of crosby-textor, perpetrated against the weakest and most vulnerable people in society (i.e. refugees) and Labour’s calling out of the EB’s secretive, anti-democratic smear campaign. That’s just laughable, and shows deep down that you al know there’s something deeply wrong with the National Party. So far there’s been virtually no policy and key refuses to front-up on TV and debate the government’s leaders. Instead he chooses to use what’s possibly the most cynical and dishonest PR company in the world to focus-group the Labour party out of government.
What’s the agenda you nat supporters? The sad thing is, you don’t even know. You’ve fallen for CT’s tactics so readily that you’re willing to vote for National based on a brand – all you know is that the TV’s told you that Coke is good and Pepsi is bad, so now you spend hours every day on here trying to convince people to vote for coke, even though you don’t know what it tastes like or what its ingredients are. I’m sorry to be so rde, but the truth is that your idiocy is astounding.
June 30th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
Good point Labour are scum
Now, the question was “How to recover”
Hmmmm, lets see…..nope, they are fucked.
June 30th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
Fortuantely the EFA precludes this kind of secretive anti-democratic campaign.
Yes thanks to the EFA, here we are in an election cycle based entirely on the value of ideas and not bought by $800,000 in illegally sourced funds. Labour is behind by 20%
June 30th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
Redbaiter:
“A lie. The left are always lying and smearing.”
June 30th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
Roger and Sonic
Neither of you get it do you?
We do not need to come here and try and convince anybody to vote for Key, the people have decided that all for themselves.
I love the way it annoys you, I take great satisfaction in the knowledge that you sit in of an evening screaming at the TV “show me some policy” while Mr Key smiles into the camera.
Get used to it the both of you, that man is going to be YOUR PM for at least the next nine years.
June 30th, 2008 at 3:50 pm
Tax cuts, no train sets for politicians, less bureaucrats, no fart tax and no EFA. Get the Kyoto liability fulfilled in a workable manner and do not treat obesity as an infectious disease.
June 30th, 2008 at 3:51 pm
Mr Farrar,
I have been a loyal reader of you blog for many years now. However I am becoming increasingly concerned that sonic is effectively hijacking your otherwise fine blog.
It is not just the ugly way he presents his ideas, but also the excessive use of spacing to pad the blog. If everyone just ignored him it wouldn’t be so bad. The way I feel it is as if I was trying to enjoy a cold beer in the pub, but my peace is always ruined by a constant brawl (started inevitably by lippy sonic).
I don’t even try to read sonic’s comments anymore, however fellow bloggers rise to his bait again and again and it’s now just so tedious.
IMHO it is now seriously affecting the quality of your blog.
I don’t have a cunning plan. It is a fine line as it is good that he can express himself in a free society, but he shouldn’t be able to shout ‘fire’ in a crowded theatre.
Perhaps there is a way to limit his posts to say once an hour?
Best wishes
A.S.
June 30th, 2008 at 3:51 pm
“we are in an election cycle based entirely on the value of ideas”
What ideas? “Helen Clark is out of touch” while John Key tastes super crunchy, smells nice and folds away underneath your bed for easy storage?
““show me some policy” while Mr Key smiles into the camera.”
See that’s the idiocy I’ve been talking about. It’s just a game of brand versus brand to you. But this isn’t a game Bruv, this is about who will get to decide the way society and the economy is structured – and in this most serious of issues you’re willing to bet on an unknown, that has so far only shown that it can afford expensive PR people that know how to brand well, and distort political discourse to the degree that it bares no relation to anything real. That’s an astoundingly reckless and irrational gamble.
June 30th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
and what most of you nattys don’t seem to realise..is that it is you who is being scammed..
your party has been hijacked by a group of rightwing businesspeople..with key as their ‘frontman’..(replacing the first one..brash..)
if elected national/key are in their thrall/doing their will/paying the bill..
your national party has been stolen by the actites..and you are all being ‘played’..even more so than the rest of us..
wake up..!
phil(whoar.co.nz)
June 30th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
Roger
The public (you have heard of them, they are the same pubic you did not listen to when you forced through the anti smacking bill and the EFA) have had enough of the thoroughly corrupt Labour party, what they are telling you is that Labour have failed in the way “society and the economy is structured”
You are right of course in as much as the public are well aware how serious it is and that is why they have rejected Labour.
Perhaps if Labour had not been so corrupt, so divisive and so arrogant then they might have stood a chance this time around.
The only idiocy in the electorate shows up in the ever decreasing number of people who are going to vote for dear corrupt maggot leader, they are exactly what you are talking about when you say they will vote for a brand over anything else, lets face it they are just plain fucking stupid.
June 30th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
What ideas? “Helen Clark is out of touch” while John Key tastes super crunchy, smells nice and folds away underneath your bed for easy storage?
Perhaps some citizens could get together and lobby a few ideas – oops no sorry that has been made illegal by the EFA. We’ll have to wait while the politicians perform in their own good time.
June 30th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
“a bit besieged today”
Not really getstaffed, having a pretty easy time of it today.
After all , you claimed “millions of people are your witnesses” to something that did not actually ever happen.
No really too hard to shoot that one down. Indeed no wonder you are so keen for us to all forget it!.
June 30th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
“..but also the excessive use of spacing to pad the blog..”
scum is quite funny..eh..?
in a village idiot sorta way..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
June 30th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
ha ha
Phul tells us that the Nat’s have been hijacked, thats fucking rich coming from a man who has seen his precious green party hijacked by the Alliance refugee’s and the communists.
June 30th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
That’s it sonic. I’ve had enough of you. If I ever find out your name I’m suing you for defamation of character just to see you bankrupted.
Get screwed. Everyone here hates you. I’m off to Whale Oil’s blog. BTW sonic his is the second best blog in NZ.
Your blog is shit.
June 30th, 2008 at 4:11 pm
“That’s an astoundingly reckless and irrational gamble.”
Haw haw, what a floundering posturing fake. No matter, apparently the citizens are so fed up with Helen Klark and the greens they’re ready to take that gamble. No matter how desperately you smearers and liars attempt to attack John Key with off topic issues that falsely malign him as dishonest (standard leftist strategy through the political ages) the reality is that NZers prefer him to the deceit ridden gang of cronyists that is the Labour Party. No matter how bad you reckon the Nats might be, the citizens of NZ still prefer them (in droves) to Labour. Eat that.
June 30th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
You are going to sue me for what, calling you an idiot?
If you want to find out my name for your legal team, drop me a mail at the usual adress.
iamaloserformailingthisaddress@hotmail.co.nz
June 30th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
wot..?..your nom de plume has been defamed..?
the good name of the scum family has been dragged through the square..
..and he is shown to indeed be..the village idiot..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
June 30th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
nome – Why dont you try and turn you attention to what has gone wrong than continue to kid yourself that its all OK!
Such an esteemed academic as yourself should be able to apply some logical analysis to the issue -surely !!!
Why should John Key release policy just to give you some mileage trying to attack it. If he has tapped into the public sentiment and you would have to agree that is the case then why stop,- if it was you telling H1 that its working would you tell her to stop?
No, in fact that is the problem now, H2 is still pulling the strings too much and is so hell bent on completing her plan of social re-engineering that she has completely forgotten to simply listen to the people.
This was the Politics 101 but it appears that it is it not in Politics H2 !!
Look at the smacking bill, look at the EFA and today on breakfast when asked if she was going to apologise to the elderly gent that got blocked by the police on her motorcade she evades the question and says well that hasn’t come up!This shows a classic example of a dictatorial leader that is completely out of touch with the general public and when interviewed by the One News reporter this morning she quite freely admitted that she hadn’t talked to the gentleman affected and she obviously is not intending to. That is pure arrogance. The Prime Minister’s attitude to the elderly gentleman that was cut off from access to his park in Christchurch by her motorcade staff is quite incredible. She immediately wants a Police investigation as if the poor police don’t have enough bureaucracy to fight apart from this. One phone call would have fixed the problem but She has lost all reason and obviously H2 has too otherwise she would ensured it happened yesterday.
I think H2 needs to hire some more consultants like Crosby Textor !!!!
June 30th, 2008 at 4:21 pm
“..I’m off to Whale Oil’s blog…”
um..!..shouldn’t someone tell whale-blubby he’s got incoming scum..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
June 30th, 2008 at 4:21 pm
Labour are Scum – sonic is a troll. He’s mostly just here to cause trouble. I say mostly because occasionally by choice, or when really really pushed, he might have something of value to say. I’ve seen it. But mostly it’s just trolling and trying to get people pissed off. Don’t let him get to you. The party he supports (or is paid by?) has made such a meal of NZ that there’s no end of good quality material available to back calls for a change in government. Focus on that, and leave our little blue-rinse hedgehog with his blather.
June 30th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
Roger, seriously, do you think the average ‘english is my second language’ blue collar labour voter knows any of Labour policies?
What would Labours 29% look like without the blue collar vote?
Do you think Key is harming his polling by not releasing Nats policies ?
June 30th, 2008 at 4:27 pm
Bruv:
Labour have made some dumb PR decisions, that have been capitalised upon by the best in the business. The pledge card issue was hugely dishonest and lamentable. National and co had out-fundraised Labour, and although democracy shouldn’t be about who has the most expensive PR campaign, Labour shouldn’t have tried to level the playing field in that way.
But it’s the outcomes for ordinary people that really count, and in this regard Labour have really excelled. Labour has in fact overseen an economic growth rate that surpasses Australia’s and Japan’s, and an increase in real, median personal income at a rate nearly three times that of the 1990s.
Then there’s cheaper day care, cheaper doctors visits, cheaper prescriptions, 4 weeks stat leave, return to universal and free accident compensation coverage, interest free student loans, etc – and the list of ways the Labour-lead government has improved the lives of ordinary people just goes on and on and on.
This is the non-branded reality. What really counts.
And what’s John Key? Well I believe Elliott Smith summed it up nicely when he sang:
There’s nothing here that you’ll miss,
I can guarantee you this,
there’s a cloud of smoke…..
trying to occupy space,
what a fucking joke,
what a fucking joke
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKUlfaxlYJQ
June 30th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Yes Big Bruv their (EB) leaflet was 100% factual.
The problem is, Helengad does not know how to be factual about anything.
Who cares if the EB talked to Brash/Key anyway.
The EB dont yet have to where Yellow stars so why cant they talk to the Nats or any other party that wants to listen.
Again Politics 101 is listen to the people whether they are Atheists, Christians, Muslims Unionists, Gays, Rich Pricks or Poor Welfare dependents or Acedemics or Tradesmen etc etc.
Also they don’t seem to be announcing Jihad like some religious fanatics are! The Labour party should be having anything to do with the Muslim Society- THEY ARE PROBABLY HARBORING TERRORISTS THAT WOULD CAUSE HARM.
June 30th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Bleater:
“No matter how bad you reckon the Nats might be, the citizens of NZ still prefer them (in droves) to Labour”
No they don’t. They’re only voting for National because National keep disingenuously promising that they’ll keep all of Labour’s policies. Though despite the branding campaign i’m not convinced that National is just “smiley Labour party without arrogance and “outoftouchedness”. Call me suspicious, but I think there’s a little more to it than that.
June 30th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
The Labour Party just do not get it. People would rather make their own arrangements but they want the Government that is thifty with money and the balance be in tax cuts. The Labour Party wants to tax people to the gunnels and then dish the money out like Oliver at the orphanage. They just do not get it that people do not like being told what to do all the time, lining up at WINZ for state charity and being told to be grateful for what they get. Maori are sick of it hence the Maori Party. But the Labour Party keeps banging on mainlining welfare into as many people as possible.
June 30th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
Instead of resorting to cheap insults, why not debate the real issues.
We have Liabour failing the New Zealand economy.
Politicisation of the civil service.
Robert Mugabe and the legancy of colonialism.
Corrections policy.
Farming and Kyoto.
Crosby Textor and Nicky Hagar.
Granny Herald’s Audrey Young and the EFA.
The Nanny State.
The failure of Gordon Brown.
The Great Battle for Freedom and so on.
Plenty to keep you trolls amused until David gets back home.
http://www.nominister.blogspot.com
June 30th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
Fairfacts Media says:
“Instead of resorting to cheap insults, why not debate the real issues.
We have Liabour”
June 30th, 2008 at 5:36 pm
Shorter fairfacts media
Please come to my blog.
June 30th, 2008 at 5:36 pm
roger – is that an open invitation? Very well – You are ‘suspicious’.
June 30th, 2008 at 5:45 pm
Lee C: are you trolling again? Naughty little monkey with sausage-fingers that mashes the key-pad in a random fashion.
June 30th, 2008 at 6:34 pm
“return to universal and free accident compensation coverage”
It ain’t ‘free’ to anyone who works, employs people or buys petrol. Its a compulsory insurance scheme with no direct connection between the people who pay the premium and make the claims. Which of itself would not be a problem if you could rely on it to pay out in terms of ‘the policy’.
However, the lack of competition invites it make it harder to sucessfully claim because claimants have nowhere else to go. ACC currently consider an incisional hernia to be an ‘ordinary consequence’ of laparascopic surgery such as appendectomy, although it happens no more than 20% of the time and can have very serious consequences. It basically tries it on with people in an already stressful situation to see if they’ll go through the disputes process, it can do this because there is no competiton.
June 30th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
Labour are Scum –
I believe it takes two to tango! If it’s really all Sonic’s fault, couldn’t his “fellow bloggers” (by which I presume you mean the right-leaning ones) rise up above it and just debate the topic instead of “taking the bait” and getting bogged down in these nasty little fights?
June 30th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
1984: Have you ever made a claim against a third party’s insurer? You have to quite literally literally beat a path to their door and demand to see the manager!
Free market or not, by the time the accident comes along, the insurer has already got their premium for the year, and they’re not going to stump up with a payout if they can possibly help it!
June 30th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
Perhaps you just have a shit insurance record?
June 30th, 2008 at 7:12 pm
Oh no – in every case there was a police report to the effect that it was the other driver that was at fault. But I have never owned expensive cars so I guess the sums involved led the insurance bigwigs to – mistakenly – assume I’d just give up if they ignored a few phone messages and tried to make me jump through hoops… More fool them!
June 30th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
Sonic, Philu, and Roger Nome, really add no substance to the debates on any thread. But it is great entertainment… and lets just watch them for the next four months as they get even more rabid as they try to defend the most corrupt Govt this country has ever seen.
June 30th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
so nothing in the name that gives it away? Rrrrrm rrrrrrm ……….smash
June 30th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
‘sausage fingers’ roger? – can you please try to address me at least once without making some kind of freudian slip?
June 30th, 2008 at 7:34 pm
Heh – I hadn’t thought of that. More like Rrrrrrrrm Rrrrrm – f*ckit she’s sooted up her spark plugs AGAIN…
I do enjoy my cars, and always drive as fast as conditions and the law permit. Again, as the Police attest I have never caused an accident, although I have been the lucky recipient of 3 good ones. Even the best of us are essentially helpless when a “profesional” (i.e. taxi) driver rear-ends you while punching buttons on his taxi-radio (twice) or young mum in her SUV tries to drive through you on the motorway while she’s preoccupied trying to stop her two little dears in the back from fighting…
June 30th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
first time caller – is that “corrupt” as in giving and receiving bribes and other illegal payouts?
Or is it just “corrupt” as in you don’t like them very much?
June 30th, 2008 at 7:38 pm
perhaps the taxi driver had … ‘sausage-fingers’…
I like this term, I will add it to my lexicon.
June 30th, 2008 at 7:41 pm
Dare I say it, both my taxi driving friends may have had Tikka Masala fingers, if you get my meaning..
June 30th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
You are lucky you didn;t end up in a korma!
roger you are immortalised: see: http://monkeyswithtypewriter.blogspot.com/
June 30th, 2008 at 7:43 pm
You are lucky you didn;t end up in a ‘korma’!
roger you are immortalised see: http://monkeyswithtypewriter.blogspot.com/
June 30th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
Yawn, Nome is still at this shit?
“Another lie. Where did I say that National isn’t made up of a broad cross section of society?”
HAHAHAHAA! You imply it with almost every post describing National as in the pay of big business.
“That’s not the result of their policies, but their lack of strategic position.”
So you agree that the Greens have been next to worthless as environmental campaigners in Parliament? Watch out Nome, thats a “smear campaign” you are embarking upon.
“Also, you’re an idiot if you think National’s policies would have resulted in lower GHG emissions, or better environmental conservation”
Never said that. Though I do think a grown up approach to environmentalism, as opposed to the Greens adolescent one and the pure-plastic-PR one frmo Labour, is more likley to come from National.
” – i.e. they cut DOC’s budget in the 1990s”
And cutting benefits proves they hate poor people, and cutting tarrifs proces they hate local manufacturers, and cutting subsidies proves that they hate farmers….
Get a new line, Nome, people are starting to realise that just because the government doesnt fund something it doesnt mean they are against it.
“currently propose gutting the RMA”
Yep, good thing too. It is unworkable and has strangled development in NZ. Of course, if you believe that NZ should stay poor just to decrease our carbon footprint, the least you could do is openly admit you hate New Zealanders and their poor children.
“and have opposed every attempt by the govt to introduce GHG-cutting legislation i.e. “fart tax” and ETS”
Fart tax was idiotic. And the ETS is a shambles. Good leaders should oppose idiocy and shambolic lawmaking. Labour are not good leaders.
“It was a secretive smear campaign.”
The truth doesnt smear, Nome, but bullshit does. You have lost this one beyond all hope of redemption because once again you demand the rest of us to ignore the facts of the case.
“They were outed for it and National rightly paid for not being up-front about their meetings with the EB and their email correspondences in which they discussed the pamphlets in relation to National Party election strategy.”
Conspiracy theory anyone?
“John Key says that he just “never opened” the emails about the “possible $1.2 million parallel campaign”. Sure slippery, whatever.”
Looks like a double helping for Nome.
“Fortuantely the EFA precludes this kind of secretive anti-democratic campaign.”
The EFA precludes a lot of things, Nome, including many peoples active participation in the democratic process. But dont worry, it was worth it. And it sure put those religious freaks in their place.
June 30th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
The point with insurance is choice, on average over the long term you have to pay more than you claim or the system doesn’t work. As I consider myself to be above averagely healthy and the public hospital system OK for acute needs I choose not to have health insurance ( abetted I must say by the wording of the last employer subsidised policy I was offered which aimed to exclude payments for things that might be your “fault”, like AIDS which I have about 0.0% of contracting).
I don’t insure my cars for minor dings. I don’t insure my health for quite major ‘dings’, I’m happy to pay $40,000 for elective surgery heart should it be needed without insurance. I’m forced to insure myself for requiring stiches to my knee if I fall over.
There is only one requirement for an insurance company as far as I’m concerned, they pay on a legitimate claim.
As a result, to the benefit of my insurance companies who have paid on my very few claims, I don’t respond to telemarketing claims for cheaper premiums for other providers.
Currently, I am in my second case of taking ACC through the dispute process.
June 30th, 2008 at 8:25 pm
RN @ 3:51:”See that’s the idiocy I’ve been talking about. It’s just a game of brand versus brand to you. But this isn’t a game Bruv, this is about who will get to decide the way society and the economy is structured …”
That’s the worrying part – the motivation of people who want to CONTROL society and the economy. They do not aspire to serve their country or to represent the wishes of the electorate in the “House of Representatives”. The name of their game is simply power – power for its own sake, and power at all costs. Such are the uplifting career aspirations of professional politicians, many of whom can “earn” riches as MPs that they could never dream of if they were working in the real world.
June 30th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
Also I took a defensive driving course when I was 15 and got over the ‘whose fault’ it was and understood the meaning of whether it was ‘preventable’. That has certainly helped me to avoid a lot of collisions from the crap drivers on NZ roads, and I’ve been driving a long time without hitting anybody else.
June 30th, 2008 at 8:37 pm
Absolutely! And I could have maybe prevented all 3 of mine, if I’d had a giant flashing neon sign in my rear window saying
***LOOK WHERE YOU’RE GOING***
***LOOK WHERE YOU’RE GOING***
***LOOK WHERE YOU’RE GOING***
***LOOK WHERE YOU’RE GOING***
***LOOK WHERE YOU’RE GOING***
…
(but this off-topic has gone on long enough now
)
June 30th, 2008 at 8:51 pm
The Standard has released a ‘neutron bomb’ about John Key.
“RDU’s Kate Gorgeous asked John Key back in November 2007, “Have you got any advisors round now that are seen in The Hollow Men?”.
Key responded that he didn’t know for sure and would have to check. Nicky Hager’s article in the SST asserts:
“each step of his campaign to become prime minister has been overseen and directed by the same professional manipulators used (and also kept secret) by his predecessor, Don Brash. They are the Australian political tacticians, Crosby/Textor. Their role advising Key is known to National Party staff, including some who are uneasy about Crosby/Textor’s involvement, but has been kept secret from the public. … National under Brash had hired Crosby/Textor for only 10 months before the 2005 election; Key hired them for the full two years leading up to the 2008 election. Their focus: his personal profile.”
Based on The Standard’s understanding of this situation, the original question from RDU came in November 2007. Key did not refer to Crosby/Textor’s involvement, which means that he is either:
answering the question “Have you got any advisors round now that are seen in The Hollow Men?” honestly if they did not appear in ‘The Hollow Men’. or:
dissembling, because Crosby/Textor, if not in ‘The Hollow Men’, were employed by Brash.
As Hager states in the SST:
“The Australians have been employed to manage Key’s public image and political strategy since he became leader. Their role came to light during research for the film The Hollow Men, which opens at film festivals next month.”
So, John Key has hired a pair of specialists in dirty tricks and political manipulation to assist him in his drive to become PM. He has refused to disclose Crosby/Textor’s involvement in his campaign.
If this is the ‘neutron bomb’ that Labour previously promised to release, it is a bit of a dud, so I can only assume that there is more of this form of campaigning to come from Labour.
That is interesting because, it is identical to the very kinds of dirty-tricks the likes of Hager and The Standard apparently find so repugnant when Crosby/Textor employ them.
So, back to square one. Except, the timing of this titbit may indicate that Labour intend to run with an early election, in the hope that they can get Key and the National party on the back-foot.
Lee – Monkey with Typewriter
June 30th, 2008 at 8:55 pm
RRM
I don’t like them very much!
Their leader signs paintings for money she didn’t paint.
She travels in motorcades at excessive speeds, but doesn’t get fined.
The party illegally overspends with the pledge card at the last election but doesn’t get prosecuted.
The prosecution rests.
June 30th, 2008 at 8:59 pm
Fine, but just note that ACC are not a 3rd party insurer, they’re supposed to be your insurer, it just doesn’t always feel that way. And what I’m currently fighting, i.e. ‘treatment injury’ v ‘medical misadventure’ is one of Labour’s trumpeted achievements, reality just doesn’t stack up. Funny that.
June 30th, 2008 at 9:41 pm
Lefty propaganda attempts to turn Key’s advisers into the news
So the most effective tactic they can muster during their biggest popularity crisis since they were elected eight long years ago, is a smear?
The way to deal with political and business advisers is to make them into the news. It’s very clever, but ultimately pointless. The only people who recall it are politicos and we number in this country in the tens of thousands.
Another clever and revealing move by Liarbore.
June 30th, 2008 at 10:19 pm
It’s a bit worrying when you consider simple information revealed about your party of choice to be a “smear”.
June 30th, 2008 at 10:44 pm
Hi Ryan, have you met Nome?
June 30th, 2008 at 10:58 pm
I don’t think so. I think I met Philu once, at an Auckland meet. Would he be the guy who gave me a business card with his blog site on it? Odd. And I went to a right-wing blog meet that had some Act on Campus guys there. And I’m pretty sure I’ve met Sonic, if he’s who I think he is. I can’t really remember the names or nicknames of any of the people I met at that meet at Bluestone Room.
I’m happy to meet any bloggers, though, of whatever persuasion. I’m regretting that I didn’t offer to have a beer with D4J when I was recently in Christchurch for the National Poker Champs.
June 30th, 2008 at 11:00 pm
oh and have you noticed how Helen Clark doesnt have any children, comes across a bit mannish at times, wears pants while meeting the Queen, and likes to hang around with other women?
just presenting the facts
*do you see what I did there?*
June 30th, 2008 at 11:03 pm
Well for me this merely reveals the skill of the left at using smear tactics, yet making it appear at the same thime that they are somhow occupying the higher moral ground as they do it. it also illustrates the skill of the left at taking information and using it. Where is the right-wing version exposing the ways that Labour manipulate, strategise, influence and people in order to encourage the electorate to vote.
Or is it the case that they ar actually whiter than white, purer than pure, only interested in social justice and destroying the evil in our midst that is unpoliced capitalism?
Come on DPF! Where’s the dirt?
June 30th, 2008 at 11:04 pm
PS, Nome has been claiming for years that the EB’s presentation of facts was a smear.
June 30th, 2008 at 11:05 pm
Kimble,
Not really. All of those things are true. You’re implying that she’s gay. If she was, and I was a Labour supporter, I’d be a bit of a fucktard if I called exposure of that truth a smear, wouldn’t I? Can you imagine a Labour supporter saying, “How dare you say such a terrible thing about Helen Clark?!” Well, perhaps you can, and I can. But they’d be quite stupid to say so.
My point is that if you don’t think there’s anything to be ashamed of, why call it a smear?
June 30th, 2008 at 11:07 pm
PS, Nome has been claiming for years that the EB’s presentation of facts was a smear.
Years of experience have shown me to be only capable of speaking for myself.
June 30th, 2008 at 11:45 pm
Hey c’mon. The left always pull these kind of stunts. They do it because they can’t defend their policies. They do it because the only way they can score any points is to get the discussion off the real issues. They do it because they get to fully utilize the support of their media plants. They do it because they know it works. They do it because they’re good at it. When it comes to lies and smears and false allegations and the personal destruction of their opponents, throughout history the left have been the masters of this technique.
If you want, you can go right back to Joe Stalin and his Blue Caps and political opponents dragged from their beds and their families at 3 in the morning, and kangaroo courts with corrupt partisan judges, and after the fake trials, banishment to the gulags or a bullet to the back of the head. You don’t need to go back that far tho. You only have to go back to the last election.
With so much at stake, what was the issue that dominated the news wires in the final days of that election?? The totally contrived allegation that Brash had lied about meeting and plotting with the EBs. (despite the lefts claims that Hager’s stolen emails proved these allegations to be true, there is in fact no such evidence, as a leading leftist has actually admitted here on Kiwiblog) The same kind of allegation that was at that time thrown at Don Brash is today being thrown at John Key. The idea is four fold- 1) to detract from the real issues. 2) To smear the target as dishonest. 3) To give their media allies something to work with and 4) to destroy the political popularity of the opponent.
This is just the start. The left will try this ruse over and over again before and during the election. It is up to the blogosphere to counter this strategy. The corrupt mainstream media must be exposed as the partisan allies of the Labour party that they really are. There must be a combined effort by all bloggers and anyone fed up with Mugabe/ Chavez style political and media corruption to counter attack the left and their media agents. Without the aid of the corrupt media the left’s smear campaign will fail miserably. Yep, its a David and Goliath situation, but if you believe in the power of truth, and you have the WILL to make it happen, the left can be beaten. Bloggers must expose the deceit of the left. That deceit that has always been their soft white underbelly.
July 1st, 2008 at 12:03 am
“The left always pull these kind of stunts”
What, you mean smears?
July 1st, 2008 at 12:10 am
“It wasn’t you dope fucked dipshit. Like all of the similar false allegations and smears by Roger Nome and almost every other amoral unprincipled desperate for power leftist posting here, it still stands as testament to the utter and total ideological corruption of the socialists.”
Yo Red;
Is that what you’d call “the personal destruction of their opponents”, the technique that you were saying before “the left have been the masters of”???
July 1st, 2008 at 12:13 am
It is true that National’s hire of a dishonest PR agency is not specifically an election issue. It should only be a concern in the light of those important issues (listed above, by Redbaiter, I think), not by itself.
July 1st, 2008 at 12:21 am
RRM, you’re a superficial fuckwit with the political perceptions of a child. Go back to talking about your driving problems. Its a subject far more suited to someone so politically stunted. The morons who post here, such as Phil and yourself and the rest are merely ignorant clod hopping foot soldiers. There would not even be any point in trying to “personally destroy” them, and anyway, by their transparent and rank deceit, they do a good enough job themselves. Get a life you whining piffling unintelligent bore- but first, get a brain.
July 1st, 2008 at 12:25 am
I’m glad to see you’ve dropped the “knuckle-dragging” thing. That got old real quick buddy.
You have a cup of tea and a lie down now, and see if the hatred goes away a little. I’ll see you again in the morning
July 1st, 2008 at 12:30 am
It already is the morning dumbfuck. …and I’m not your “buddy”.
July 1st, 2008 at 12:30 am
Oh, and since you mention “the political perceptions of a child”….
We don’t have a Mugabe/Chavez style ANYTHING in this country. If we did, Helen’s goons would be throwing small pieces of you from the back of a truck into a hole in the ground somewhere….
July 1st, 2008 at 12:39 am
And since we’re using that sort of language, here’s a little bedtime reading for you:
I GOT CASH
by BROOKLYN FUNK ESSENTIALS
I got cash in fuck you quantities
Know what?
That makes you uncomfortable?
Fuck you, and the Range Rover you drove in on
Fuck your Saab convertable
And fuck your twice weekly trips to the analyst
Stupid mutha fuck.
Fuck the Hamptons
The fly infested south of France.
I’m paid asshole,
I got more cash than God can count
so why don’t you just…. die?
Choke to death on your damn designer bagel from Balducci’s
Low cholesterol, naturally
Fuck your big ol’ Sunday New York Times
Fuck the Wall Street Journal
And News Week
And the lot
Including Nation, Village Voice, Guardian and the rest
Stupid set of privileged mutha fuckers
Think its fashionable to have an alternative view
An alternative view
And fuck, if you can
Your pencil thin, Evian drinking, calorie counting, caffeine limiting, sodium spearing, nutrasweet sweetening, rear view mirror preening, carrot nibbling bunny
Go drown in a lake of Diet Coke, fucker
I got cash, what else matters?
I got cash
Slave
Fuck your fencing and screw your squash,
Piss on your Paulo and your Pavarotti,
Fuck all that shit you call music and pretend to enjoy
I got cash,
Mega cash,
I’m happy with that,
Oh go and sit on your ski rug,
Money talks you little pussy,
And let your politically correct pals know,
That i think you’re a dick also.
Neutered asshole
And your idea of multiculturalism
Japanese restaurant on Monday,
Indian on tuesday,
And on Wednesday, Caribbean,
Not to spicy please
Well
I got stash on stash and it ain’t nouveau cash.
Money’s in my family for generations,
My great great great grandfather made the bag,
Selling European slaves in Africa
I got cash mutha fuckah,
And you can’t tell whether or not I’m joking, can you?
Dumb fuck.
July 1st, 2008 at 12:47 am
“We don’t have a Mugabe/Chavez style ANYTHING in this country. If we did, Helen’s goons would be throwing small pieces of you from the back of a truck into a hole in the ground somewhere….”
Naaah, they know that kind of thing doesn’t work so well and are much more sophisticated and cunning. For example one of their most succesful strategies has been the gradual deconstruction of the education system, to the extent where all it can produce are dysfunctional halfwits like you, so easy to manipulate and so ignorant of reality you become the perfect Labour supporter, mouthing weak platitudinous cliches that demonstrate so well how barren you are of wisdom and intelligence and learning. As if your reverence for vulgar infantile and talentless song lyric wasn’t enough of an indication.
July 1st, 2008 at 2:07 am
Hi guys. I’m just popping up hear to say that I’m reading it… and I’m fucking loving it! And because my presence usually elicits more hilarious invective from our mate, Redbaiter.
Now… go for it, son!
July 1st, 2008 at 3:35 am
Another day and Labour is still down on its luck.
What’s a grotesquely unpopular party to do?
That’s right, lose, badly!
July 1st, 2008 at 5:18 am
http://whoar.co.nz/2008/the-financial-markets-are-a-casinoand-therefore-of-interest-only-to-gamblers-clairvoyants-and-cheats/
i found this this morning..
..it also helps with filling in keys’ background..
phil(whoar.co.nz
July 1st, 2008 at 5:26 am
KiwiRail. What a laugh.
Guess that makes Labour = KiwiLoser ™
July 1st, 2008 at 5:45 am
Yeah, I read that this morning phil. What the article eventually leads too, after reams of waffling shite loved by column producing journo’s and their ilk (hi), is that the world is on the brink of an energy inflation crisis.
No shit Einstein.
Can you tell me again, in a sentence, how this relates to the next PM of NZ?
How about that UMR PR and Market Research firm that Labour can’t afford any more!
July 1st, 2008 at 5:59 am
Whaleoil has a brilliant piece on what Hels really thinks of the media. Nothing quite like spending your last few months in office attacking the media. She’ll be fire fighting all the way to election day.
Result? Massive defeat the likes of which has never been seen before for Labour. A good result for New Zealand.
July 1st, 2008 at 6:29 am
“..Can you tell me again, in a sentence, how this relates to the next PM of NZ?..”
well..y’see..more than a few of us are curious about where prime ministerial aspirant key ‘came from’..eh..?
(just attempting to provide a ‘public service’ here..expat..)
and..oxymoron alert..!
“..Whaleoil has a brilliant piece..”
phil(whoar.co.nz)
July 1st, 2008 at 7:04 am
I think Key most recently “came from” Merrils, at the cnr of Newgate and Giltspur, EC4.
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=ava+maria+lane,+ec4&ie=UTF8&ll=51.516241,-0.101902&spn=0.004487,0.009313&t=h&z=17
Now, where did Hulun, Mikhael, Big Trev, Smarmy, Horomia, et al “come from”? Sitting on their asses being subsidised by the taxpayer?
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=beehive,+wellington&ie=UTF8&ll=-41.278528,174.776655&spn=0.002709,0.004656&t=h&z=18
Whats this got to do with the price of oil?
NZ needs a new leader and a new direction – laybore have lost the plot. Cullen wants to be in HB growing Syrah
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=+hawkes+bay&sll=-41.278528,174.776655&sspn=0.002709,0.004656&ie=UTF8&ll=-39.633258,176.914043&spn=0.04442,0.074501&t=h&z=14
Clark and Simpson want to be at the WHO or the UN
(especially now that Big Trev and Smarmy have fucked off & the ‘very B team’ trouble shooters are fucking things up royally). Sorry, its harsh but true, laybore are dead ducks.
July 1st, 2008 at 9:59 am
“there is no respect for critical journalism as a crucial part of a functioning democracy. They’re played for chumps and expected to buy into the ‘time for a change’ meme themselves. Any journos that breaks the rules by reporting Key when he goes off message or seriously challenging National on their competence to govern is shouted down, threatened, ostracised, and discredited.”
The above is an extract from a post on The Standard, where the extremists who run that site are still desperately trying to beat up yet another Hagar non event and smear. What it shows is that the left are feeling the heat regarding criticism of their media agents. What it shows is that so called journalists in key media positions who are really just Labour party plants are, thanks to the blogosphere, having a bit of light shone on their deceitful partisan advocacy- that writing that is really just Labour Party propaganda faithfully repeated in the guise of objective comment.
Bloggers must keep up the pressure on the corrupt mainstream media. Comments like the above from the zealots at the Standard show that they’re worried about their media cronies being muzzled by editors who are aware of public dissatisfaction with media performance. Lets make them even more worried. Its time to strike a blow for real democracy and confront the corruption of the NZ media by leftists posing as journalists. Without their propagandists, without their purveyors of deceit, distortion, smears and hate, the left have nothing.
July 1st, 2008 at 10:01 am
Does no-one else consider the following:
The Government is under pressure in the polls. The government is under pressure with the state of the economy. The Government is under pressure because of the EFA (both in action and in principle). The Government is under pressure with the S59 referendum. The Government is under pressure to reveal the date of the election.
And what do we get?
An hysterical article about a piece of non-news backed up with a raft of “usual suspects” claiming facts and using carefully chosen scare words. Sop the claims – “Crosby / Textor were the architects of the Tampa children lies”, “C/T have a dubious history of questionable campaigns”, “underground dirty tactics campaign”, “black ops” etc etc.
Two things appear obvious.
1. This is a carefully orchestrated campaign.
2. Attention is being diverted from things that the public are not to be allowed to see or discuss and thus are not to be allowed to gain any traction.
Incidentally on the subject of C/T, the last person who claimed unverified things about them paid a bunch of money and issued the most grovelling apology I have ever seen in print. Also an inquiry cleared Howard on the “children thrown overboard from the Tampa” incident as he had acted in good faith on information supplied by the Navy. Does C/T control the RAN? I ask.
The biggie then is – who has designed this campaign of smear, scare, half-truths and blatant lies? How much are they getting paid, by whom? (ie party or taxpayer?)
and the biggest of all :
WHY NOW ?
July 1st, 2008 at 10:10 am
On an unrelated matter
Just who is the Minister in Charge of the Security Intelligence Service?
Do they have the capability to get into Parliamentary Sevices computer networks (overtly or covertly)?
July 1st, 2008 at 10:11 am
um..!..cos’ we’re coming up to an election..?
and.. “..a carefully orchestrated campaign..”..?
this is just information key/national wanted kept quiet..
that ‘tampa inquiry’ you cite..is seen as a benchmark of a whitewash/cover-up..
howard knew he was lying about the babies/children being ‘thrown overboard’..
now..as a natty/rightwinger you obviously have no qualms about this standard of deceitful political dialogue/spin/lies..
whereas many new zealanders wouldn’t be so blase’..
..and will be discomfitted at the thought they are being bullshitted to..by some aussie bullshit artists..
..using key as a mouthpiece..
as i said before..
whoar..!!
phil(whoar.co.nz)
July 1st, 2008 at 10:16 am
“howard knew he was lying about the babies/children being ‘thrown overboard’..”
No you’re lying. And smearing. Its all you ever do, and lies and smears are all you’ve ever got. Worthless bludger.
July 1st, 2008 at 10:19 am
Is it just me or is ratbleater getting even more deranged than usual?
Up to 1am posting on Kiwiblog, I wonder what his girlfriend thinks of that!
July 1st, 2008 at 10:23 am
Philu
Sorry that you are offended by logic, fact, proper punctuation and appropriate grammar.
Suggest you check facts before lying through your pot-stained teeth.
July 1st, 2008 at 10:28 am
“Is it just me”
Yeah, its just you. It always is, even when you’re so fond of speaking for others.
July 1st, 2008 at 10:36 am
david said..
“..On an unrelated matter
Just who is the Minister in Charge of the Security Intelligence Service?
Do they have the capability to get into Parliamentary Sevices computer networks (overtly or covertly)?.”
are you suggesting..david..that the s.i.s spooks are spying on/hacking into nationals’ computer..?
and all this at the behest of clark..?
whew..!..them’s some serious drugs you’re smoking there cuzzy..!
(thanks for the laff..!..tho’..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
July 1st, 2008 at 10:46 am
Your girlfriend ok with you posting on blogs at 1am in the morning Ratbleater?
July 1st, 2008 at 10:57 am
Your boyfriend OK with you being recognised as one of the biggest try hard fuckwits in the blogosphere Sonik?
July 1st, 2008 at 11:06 am
Aaaaaw phil, thought you would be all over the possible misuse of Waihopi like a rash – given your green cred. Or are these conspiracy theories only trotted out when convenient to your own misguided view on life?
July 1st, 2008 at 11:10 am
I think we can conclude that Ratbleater is alone in his bedsit
July 1st, 2008 at 11:50 am
Like I should care what conclusions braindead losers like you and your imaginary mates would come up with??
July 1st, 2008 at 11:53 am
RRM You should show your poetry to David Cunnyliffe…you two could do nighttime poetry sessions with each other…You deserve each other
July 1st, 2008 at 12:02 pm
ftc – Gee whiz and I credited the source (not me) at the top – in ALL CAPS too!