Selfish Righties
June 11th, 2008 at 1:59 pm by David FarrarI really despair when intelligent people resort to cartoon type caricatures of their opponents. Jordan blogs today:
I was watching the video of Michael Cullen at the Drinking Liberally gig in Wellington last week (where I was standing was a bit out of hearing range at times), and thinking about why people bother with progressive politics.
After all, sometimes it would seem much easier to adopt a selfish approach to life. When you’re only looking after yourself, only caring about yourself, and when your politics is shaped around that point of view, then things must seem much easier. There would be none of the difficulties involved in having due regard for other people.
Oh yes everyone on the left is good and caring and warm and those who have a different view on politics are selfish evil people. It would be laughable if it wasn’t said so earnestly and seriously and with such a tone of moral superiority. I mean how does one survive with such a burden of the “difficulties in having due regard for other people”.
Yeah it is so much easier on the right. I mean none of us donate to charity. None of us spend hundreds and thousands of hours of our time volunteering with charities, service clubs and non-profits. None of us
care for others. Hell we don’t even have friends and we are created in test tubes we are such inhuman bastards.
June 11th, 2008 at 2:04 pm
Funnily enough the most self-absorbed, selfish and downright miserable people I have ever met have been, almost without exception, socialists. Or more specifically socialist lackeys. The guys at the top of the socialist heap always seem to live pretty well and enjoy the priveleges of power.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Just out of interest (I speed read the post & may have missed it) where does Jordan attribute that selfish approach to the Right?
and hang on a mo’ I’ll be back in a second or so….
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
I can’t believe you used the word “intelligent” in the context of describing anything Jordan has written.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
Oh, I don’t have to go anywhere – Brian Smaller supplied the ironic comment.
Or is he not one of the intelligent ones?
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
Talking about charity DPF, I am more than happy to extend my $1,000 challenge to Jordan if he gets in the ring with Whale Oil.
I will be extra charitable and give him the $1,000 to donate to the Muliaga kids education just for fronting up for the fight. He doesn’t even have to beat Whale.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
Created in test tubes…? Hell, I didn’t know that!
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
I wonder why you bother reading Jordan DPF. The guy just isn’t worth a second of your attention.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
I would pay money to hear Jordan debate with Roger Douglas in this year election campaign. In fact, I may just well do that and fly up to Auckland for one of the “hear the candidates” sessions.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
“Created in test tubes….”
I wondered why my birth sign was Pyrex…
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
DPF: Hell we don’t even have friends and we are created in test tubes we are such inhuman bastards.
All favour of excommunicating DPF from the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy for revealing our secrets, raise your hands now.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
Brian, I tend to agree. For many left-wingers, their politics is a proxy for benevolence and compassion. It’s like they don’t need to express such concerns on a personal level because their ideology “takes care” of them on an abstract level. In saying that, many right-wingers make a virtue out of solipsism and a “screw-the-world” misanthropy. Being an asshole seems to be unrelated to politics. Not me, though. I put mum in a new test-tube holder for Mother’s Day.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Jordan seems confused between care and control. He thinks he cares because he wants to control. Well if I was selfish, I wouldn’t be involved in politics, or I would be involved only to the extent that I wanted to lobby for more government benefits/funding for myself and/or my group. Which, by the way, very few on the “right” actually do, but it seems to be rampant on “the left”.
No, I define caring and thinking about more than just myself as wanting to remove the control of people like Jordan over my life and the lives of others. Or at least giving others that choice. I concede that such an attitude is not entirely altruistic – I want to free myself first and foremost, and if that helps others so much the better. But I think that Jordan and his ilk really do see controlling others they think inferior to them as a selfless act. This is obviously not the case, as there is no stronger or baser desire in humanity than the will to power.
Even more disturbing is the realisation that one day these people will wake up and they will have a choice. They can choose, as Roger Douglas, Don Brash et. al. did, to acknowledge that genuinely helping others can only be achieved by firstly giving them more freedom; or they can do what most of them do and start lying to themselves about reality. This is how Jordan can talk bullshit about Douglas causing poverty – he genuinely believes it despite it being at complete odds with the truth.
I suspect in the case of Clark, however, that she is too smart to lie to herself in that way, but has simply spent far too long climbing the greasy pole to start having some principles now.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
Typical leftist, has no idea what conservatives (not others, nominally on the right) actually believe. Perhaps leftists are often just such self-absorbed individuals, and embrace leftist politics as a way to psychologically offset their own selfishness and shallowness, at the same time as projecting these qualities onto others? Just because one rejects government’s role in people’s lives as an ideal or even a positive thing this hardly equates to selfishness. Conservatives believe positive social values come from relationships between people (and, for some, man and God) rather than between people and the nanny state government. That’s far from selfishness: it’s reality. To reject this is to have no clue about life.
For example: Feminists don’t remotely understand the relationship between men and women. Could that be why they’re obsessed with a view of life thoroughly centred on politics? I.e. Where government replaces the relationship a father and the home, and childcare replaces the relationship between mother and child. Let’s face it, they hate the family because it offers a view diametrically opposite to their own. Government is the stop-gap for their ignorance about life.
Selfishness is a scruffy neo-hippy or greenie marching to demand more freebies from government; or a feminist demanding the predominantly male taxpayers pay for all of wimmins’ choices in life.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Headline: ‘Poster on Kiwiblog comes up with 4,234th definition of feminism’
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 2:40 pm
Jordan’s rantings sound like those of a man who knows that his party is heading for a devastating defeat in the coming election.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
what a crock of self-justifying apologies..
yes..there are rightwingers who ‘give’..(‘exceptions to every rule’..etc..)
but ya gotta admit..
in general..the right is all about me me me..
(‘stop controlling me..!..stop taking my money..!(taxes..again)..
and..whatever else you do..)..don’t ‘give’ anyone else anything..!’..)
(c.f..redbaiter..et al..)
in fact..you..dpf..are on record as saying/wishing richardson/shipley had gutted the social welfare ‘net’ even more than they did..
..how does this/that not help prove the ‘all/most righties are selfish/greedy/uncaring bastards’ thesis..?
then we move to the left..again..with a broad brush..and yes..there are always exceptions/failures..
but in general..do you think it is some sorta coincidence that the countries with the lowest number of social ‘ills”..
..are those high-taxing/strong social ‘net’/leftie/social democrat/progressive european countries..?
..counties that are the complete antithesis of what righties ‘want’/preach.
phil(whoar.co.nz).
so..most righties are greedy
..and..take away/(sell?) what is already there..
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
I cringed at those quotes, and my god is Carter partisan but at least he has this:
Not exactly 70s ‘Poland with sunshine’ economics thank god – looks like hes learned from the failed policies of the 80s…sort of.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
philu: in general..the right is all about me me me..
From the man who is willing to sit on a benefit, raking in the sweat off other people’s backs so he can spend more time with his son – that is fucking rich.
Consider this. I have a beautiful 3 year old daughter that I’d love to spend a lot more time with. But I work to support my family. And you and your family and contribute more than my fair share of tax because dope-heads like you sit on their asses and selfishly make their own life-style choices.
So bluntly put philu – fuck you and daring to imply that anyone other than yourself is selfish and greedy.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
Llew – Brian Smaller supplied the ironic comment.
I made my comment in reference to miserable, self-absorbed people that I have personally met. Not in reference to all self-absorbed people. After all, I haven’t met everyone in the Labour Party.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
Typical socialist crap. Once again anyone who aspires to anything other than paying homage to an All Powerful State is selfish and uncaring.
I submit that there’s nothing as uncaring as the State holding people in dependence at its leisure, like a p-dealer controlling the lives of his/her victims. Forget slicing the wealth cake more ‘fairly’. I we don’t get off our collective arses (and kick some socialist ones from office) then the cake will continue to shrink in real-world terms until there is no cake!!
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
aww..!..pascal..!..can we talk..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
Voting Labour back into power would almost be worth it if they promised that TNVZ would make a new series in the vein of Father Murphy. Only it would be Father Carter: A strong, silent, grim faced monk, selfishly taking in the orphans who were forced to live life rough in the Hunua ranges or risk being scooped up by the evil Dr. Douglas, who would set them to work in his poorhouse.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 3:02 pm
You don’t understand what Jordan is saying: Most poor people vote for the left out of a benevolent attitude to poor people, but most rich people vote right out of greed.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 3:08 pm
Left wing blogsphere comment seems to be either pompous self-righteous sneering and personal abuse which is usually from Lefties further up the chain of command or very naive, desperately earnest types like Jordan- the little foot soldiers who really do believe with blind faith everything Auntie Hulun and Co tells them. It is touching to see that sort of almost religious faith and innocence among the Left wing faithful but it is also that sort of ideological blindness and demonizing of anyone who disagrees with the party line that makes possible people like Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, Mao , Pol Pot, Mugabe and Kim Jong il.
Vote:I think this Jordan chappie needs to get out more.
June 11th, 2008 at 3:11 pm
No time ought to be wasted on an imbecile like Jordan Carter. Not without reason this moron is a Labour candidate.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 3:16 pm
Didn’t just do exactly that?
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 3:16 pm
.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
philu: most studies of charitable giving between left and right find that people on the right give a lot more. And that (contrary to popular belief) average income is not that different between left and right, so don’t go blaming it on the right being richer. You’re just as guilty as Jordan of spouting stereotypes without any thinking.
I usually start with the assumption that most people are trying to do good by others. In the case of the left, they are all heart and no brain. They think the best way to improve people’s lives is to get out there and tell them what to do, when to do it, how much money to spend, thereby making their lives better. Because the poor dears are too stupid to do it for themselves. The right tend to think that the way to improve people’s lives is to work on making the country richer, on removing privilege and giving everyone a fair go. People then need to get on and do some things for themselves.
My personal answer is a bit in the middle – for most people the answer is to get out of their way, ensure they have a decent income, and let them sort things out for themselves (without creating perverse incentives for them to do things like divorce for money, or for them to be better off on a benefit than in work). For some people, it isn’t enough – they need a kick start. And that is where we need more intervention. For other people, the nature of their situation means they will never work – mental or physical health issues and a variety of other problems. Those people need long-term support. It isn’t all that hard, but then, I guess there are too many interested parties to actually implement something.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
Yeah sorry Brian, I knew that, I should have done what I planned & gone & found a real zinger of a cartoon caricature of a leftie, by a rightie… they aren’t hard to find around here.
But then I decided I didn’t care enough to bother
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
Check out: Arthur C. Brooks: “Who Really Cares: The Surprising Truth About Caring Conservatism”, and also, The “Index Of Global Philanthropy 2008″ (From The Centre For Global Philanthropy).
Basically, conservatives at ANY measure of wealth are MUCH more generous than their socialist counterparts. Even the working poor church-goer is far more generous with their time and money, than a similarly poor secular socialist. Beneficiaries, who have all the time in the world, do not bother to give time to charitable causes, as a rule, either.
Socialists regard THEIR responsibilities to their fellow man as being discharged through their support of income-redistributive socialist politicians. But too bad if their own neighbour needs a hand, or the widow down the street. So much for Hilary Clinton’s “village”; socialist politics DESTROYS “community” like nothing else, by gouging so much tax out of people that their ABILITY to help their fellow man is reduced, AND by usurping the role of caring, itself.
The moral hazard of “entitlements” that are somebody’s by RIGHT, rather than charitable help provided by some warm-hearted person to whom people owe gratitude, is destroying society.
Furthermore, any program provided by private sector charity, BEATS HANDS DOWN, any program provided by Government, in its effectiveness. Faith-based rehabilitation, the only thing that works for blighted lives, is however, taboo with the political Left. The “sheeple” of the Western world blindly go along with the Socialists who smear and disempower the “faith” sector, all the while creating bigger and bigger social disarray by THEIR preferred courses of policy action.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Cheap point scoring: many (left and right) would say that people of faith are the real sheeple.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
“all the while creating bigger and bigger social disarray by THEIR preferred courses of policy action.”
Yes, and the fact that they are ever ready to sacrifice society to that disarray, for the sake of power, shows that in fact it is the left who are the selfish ones. They care only for power, and whatever the outcome of their maneuvering to grasp that power, whatever the cost to society as a whole, they must have it. That is why everything every leftist and Jordan Carter in particular says about caring for people is utter bullshit.
If they really did care, the first thing they would do is disavow their socially destructive ideology. They want control and power, and they want to use government to increase that power and control. That is always their first objective. Caring?? Pffft… What crap. Ask the millions who have died at the hands of the power seeking left throughout history. Died at the hands of control freak totalitarians who are the left’s (Helen Klark and Jordan Carter’s) poster boys.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
I heard HC was getting plastic surgery so she could look like Mao after the election. Pol Pot for Peter.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 4:18 pm
To be fair, I think every one of us has an element of selfishness just as everyone of us has an element of benevolence. Some are more selfish or benevolent then others but I really don’t think that this is reflected through our political bias. ACT/National voters are on the whole equally as gifted/flawed as Labour/Green voters. It’s called the human condition. Jesus wrote a book about it.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 4:25 pm
“It’s called the human condition. Jesus wrote a book about it.”
Fuck me! Jesus wrote a book???? I suppose I’m not that surprised that he decided to give his side of the story after being misquoted so often in the Bible…
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
Probably right on there spector…though I don’t think Jesus wrote any books?
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
none of you answer that basic difference..
that the left believe in a social net/lifting everyones’ boat..
that the right believe in ripping away any social nets..because they ‘cost them’..
once again..
how does this basic fact/difference not prove that most righties are greedy/selfish bastards..
who don’t give a fuck about anything/anyone past the ends of their own noses..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 4:37 pm
For someone who is apparently unselfish, Jordan sure talks about himself a lot.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 4:45 pm
DPF You are wasting your breath trying to deal to the Socialists and Commies rationally
In my case for contributing money to charity I am acussed of being a rich prick who could afford to give several times what I donate.
For giving time to the various service organisations I belong to Im accussed of not having a real job so therefore have the time anyway.
You cant reason with dumbarse unreasonable Socialists and Commies.
just ignore nthem and treat them as the waste of oxygen they are there are many more important things in life than these morons.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 4:47 pm
Josh was a Jewish carpenter who was crap with a hammer. If he’d been able to turn out decent coffee table he never would have gone into politics.
But he never wrote so much as a pledge card.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
What Jordan Carter implies about the Left:
The Left are thousands upon thousands of social workers, railways employees, teachers, union officials, nurses, low income families, solo parents and benificiaries who are willing to unselfishly* vote for a better society with larger government.
* these are unselfish people engaged in furthering the great ideals of leftism – egalitaire, sustainability and tolerance. Pay no attention to the government directing billions of dollars in to their back pockets each year, that might suggest that these people are selfish. These people are not selfish, only the righties are selfish.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
From Theodore Dalrymple, with thanks to Crusader Rabbit, the best blog-
“The thinness of the new atheism is evident in its approach to our civilization, which until recently was religious to its core. To regret religion is, in fact, to regret our civilization and its monuments, its achievements, and its legacy. And in my own view, the absence of religious faith, provided that such faith is not murderously intolerant, can have a deleterious effect upon human character and personality. If you empty the world of purpose, make it one of brute fact alone, you empty it (for many people, at any rate) of reasons for gratitude, and a sense of gratitude is necessary for both happiness and decency. For what can soon, and all too easily, replace gratitude is a sense of entitlement. Without gratitude, it is hard to appreciate, or be satisfied with, what you have: and life will become an existential shopping spree that no product satisfies.”
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
philu, it is a question of what we INCENTIVISE. Bill Clinton, a Democratic President, signed into law welfare reforms that meant that welfare in the US reverted to being a SAFETY NET, NOT AN ENTITLEMENT. There is a difference, and there was a huge difference, in NZ, between the number of solo mums who QUALIFIED for the DPB when it was introduced, and the number 3 years later (something like tenfold if I remember rightly); this in spite of a Royal Commission assuring us that the DPB would not have this effect………..!
We have had this debate over and over. Basically, if you provide too generously for people who do not work for whatever reason, too many people will take up that OPTION as a proportion of those who continue to work and pay tax to support the whole system. Really, we should ALL stop working for a year, just to get the point across.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 4:53 pm
Philu- “that the right believe”
Don’t tell me what the right believe you narrow minded ignorant bludging simian fuckwit. You wouldn’t have a damn clue.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 4:54 pm
oh yeah..!..righties are also big on personal abuse/attacking the messanger..
..rather than addressing the issues..
(c.f..this thread.?.)
(bearhunter..heh..!..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
And philu mate I have meet a number of indiviuals over many years who have made significant financial and other contributions to the needy and worthwhile causes.
And the one thing they have had in common was they didnt advertise the fact often the charity didnt know them and the other thing was they were almost all of the right persuasion
Now of course bird brains like you will say they got wealthy off the sweat of the poor and all that other drivel and crapola which is bullshit. They worked hard they didnt sponge and expect everything for nothing which is what the Socilaists and Commie want.
Lazy arrogant sods. LOL at the lards in Sth Auckland and other dead beat areas all on the benefit Over fed underworked and killers of innocent dairy owners.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
how does this basic fact/difference not prove that most righties are greedy/selfish bastards..
who don’t give a fuck about anything/anyone past the ends of their own noses..?
philu
There is no objective answer.
If the rightie is a beneficiary and does not want to have that benefit be paid, because he thinks it is a cost someoneelse should not have to bear then he is a generous and unselfish person. If on the otherhand he is wealthy then he is greedy/selfish when demanding the benefit not be paid.
If the leftie is wealthy and feels that more of their wealth should be taken and given to a poor person then he is also generous and unselfish person. If on the otherhand the leftie is poor and then he is greedy/selfish when demanding the benefit.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
I notice Jordan has now read this thread on Kiwiblog, and has responded with this pearl:
“I know sometimes I can seem one eyed and overly critical of the right. But that’s simply a function of blogging in a hurry, with time at a premium. I can’t be bothered with the endless qualifications that ought to be implicit anyway.”
I particularly like “qualifications that ought to be implicit anyway” – perhaps a plea that people need to learn to take their grain of salt more regularly, and chill a little?
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
The mistake that DPF makes here is to take anything that Jordon Carter says seriously.
Carter: “For me it is axiomatic that all people are morally equal and that that has economic implications as well as social ones. In building a more equal society where people’s relations are as people or as citizens – not “marketised” – the role of the state is very important. A shrinking of the state is most likely to be a reduction in freedom. And economic success requires the sort of social capital that only a social democratic state can provide the conditions for”
What is moral equality?
Most would agree that Citizens should be treated equally before the law. Most also agree that all Citizens should have an equal opportunity to make there way. But moral equality? What he actually means is an equal outcome i.e. it’s moral that we all have the same levels of wealth. Or that the state legislates to give all of us the same conditions of employment.
What he ignores is the rich vain of philosophical work done that shows equality of outcome is inconsistent with fundamental freedoms – people through the exercise of their freedom will cause inequality.
And marketised? Why is a free market so deeply immoral? Citzens engaging in the free exchange of goods and labour – what is immoral about that? Indeed a truly free market is the only moral system for exchanging good and services because its lacks any formal coercion. All other allocation methods are coercive.
And as to making people commodities in a market arguably the Left did this by correctly supporting say prostitution law reform – a legal measure in New Zealand that actually incentivised a small business approach to brothel keeping and prostitution.
What Mr Carter’s post is really about is victimlogy. Dr Cullen is so selfless (and by extention Jordon Carter is too) how is it that voters no longer are prepared to politically reward those who are prepared to lay down their political lives for others?
The voters are actually a tad ungrateful. Indeed they are being duped by the Slippery Mr Key.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 5:47 pm
Chris Diack: “What he actually means is an equal outcome i.e. it’s moral that we all have the same levels of wealth.”
No, that’s not how I read that at all. Although perhaps the threat of the wealthy looking down on the poor as a lower form of life because of some market-driven relationship akin to owner and serf is somewhat exaggerated in Jordan Carter’s mind – but it would be presumptuous of me to speak on behalf of someone else!
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 5:48 pm
All politics is selfish and all politics is noble. Jordan Carter is being a prick because he only recognises nobility in his side and selfishness in the other.
Personally I am tending right wing for noble reasons (free speechiness), but will vote Labour the instant they push through “the subsidy ($millions) for people using pseudonyms form Ian M. Banks novels to post on the internets bill”.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 5:53 pm
“qualifications that ought to be implicit anyway”
Sounds a bit like “the law of common sense”!
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
“I wonder why you bother reading Jordan DPF. The guy just isn’t worth a second of your attention.”
Anyone who pushes the lie that “tax cuts are a bribe” is more than a leftist. They are a Stalinist.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
Not a bribe? What are YOU doing with YOUR extra $16 a week then?
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
Stalin’s propaganda successes arose from his establishment of departments that pushed a deliberate lie as the truth. Over and over and over until the lie became accepted. Taking money from people who have earned that money is not a bribe. Taking less money from people who have earned it is not a bribe. Although no doubt Stalin’s Ministry of Truth (or whatever) like Kullen and Karter, would have called it that.
Taking money from the productive and doling it out to the unproductive in return for their vote is a bribe, and should be criminalised. No politician should ever have the right to take money from the pocket of one voter and deposit it in the pocket of another. There should be a constitution that specifically and eternally forbids such an event, one so poisonous to any true democratic process, and any politician who attempts such a strategy should be charged with some kind of offence, like “attempting to pervert the course of democracy”.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
The well documented generosity of right wing (and centrist) Kiwi’s is something that I am proud of, it is a fact that these two groups are far more generous than the left.
However that generosity is being stretched to breaking point by the scum in our society who firmly believe they have the right to sponge off the rest of us each and every week.
Take our resident troll and dole bludger Phil U, if he can raise a family on the current benefit levels then that proves that benefits are failing, our benefit levels are to generous.
Our social welfare system should be one that is there for real emergencies and only available on a very short term basis, personally I would institute a system that forces thieves like Phil U back to work after six months
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
q.e.d…?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
phil u
Seriously, why do you think you have a right to steal from the tax payer every week?
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
BlairM
‘lobby for more government benefits/funding for myself and/or my group. Which, by the way, very few on the “right” actually do, ‘
I take it, Blair, that you exclude large corporations (start with Comalco perhaps) and businesses big, medium and small which have lobbying government for concessions like tax breaks, cheap land, planning permission and the like as a significant part of their work. That’s just in NZ of course. Then explore how Nike, for example, operate overseas.
Little Johnny – you and me – doesn’t get to lobby anybody, other than his local MP, for anything other than something he’s already entitled to.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 7:14 pm
BlairM says:
You got it in one, Blair. Lefties think that doling out a handout entitles them to control how the populace lives – including those of us who don’t take a cent. Alas many on the right do the opposite. Not only do they commendably not want to control people’s lives but they believe that simply “empowering” people (i.e. leaving them to their own devices) absolves the government and its agencies of needing to care when some don’t make it.
Of course there are workshy bludgers out there, just as there are greedy, self-absorbed destructive capitalists. But they’re on the extremes. Most people who fall on hard times do so through circumstances beyond their control. Sure, some of us may have coped, because we’re fortunate enough to have been better equipped to do so.
Since I utterly loathe control, I tend to veer right. But I can never stay a steady course because I keep running aground on the philosophy of some on the right who seem to seem to want to practice an extreme form of Darwinism.
I should add, though, that proximity to the political party of their choice seems to embed the extremes of belief into otherwise reasonable people. I’ve seen perfectly nice right wingers adopt a “let them eat dust” philosophy when they get a whiff of a nice cosy political position, and similarly level headed lefties get set to plunder our pockets for hip hop study tours when they get close to the void. It’s as if they feel the need to convince their comrades that they “belong”.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 7:14 pm
No kiwitoffee. Large corporations are a very small percentage of those on the right. Most centre right voters are average people, with a simple philosophy . Work hard and get a fair go.
Ironically these use to be the principles of the initial labour movement.
Now Carter, phil et al suscribe to
1. Do nothing and be rewarded
2. Try to work harder, but we will take away your state benefit
3. BE successful…………..phwarpppppppppp..penalty, penalty, penalty!
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
Boomtownprat
‘Work hard and get a fair go.
Ironically these use to be the principles of the initial labour movement.’
Indeed.
‘ Large corporations are a very small percentage of those on the right’
I’n not sure how you’d measure it but I doubt that very much.
Why should Comalco get cheaper power than me and my family? Because they have clout with the government. Most of the lobbying ‘industry’ exists to serve the interests of business, especially corporations, not me (or you, I suspect).
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 7:41 pm
phil says:
Jordan says:
Both comments typify the average lefty’s massive ignorance and arrogance.
Ignorance because – newsflash – humans thrive on competition. The fact lefties think it’s nasty doesn’t change the fact. “Marketising” people doesn’t involve turning them into commodities, but lefties think it does. The odd thing is that lefties fail to spot the oxymoron which is that through their beloved social engineering programs which they NEVER ADMIT TO, it’s the lefties who treat the people they pretend to care about as commodities to be lied to and manipulated – and it’s all done in a highly secret and sinister way.
Ignorance because Phil imagines that conservatives “rip away social nets..because it costs” us. Phil, you don’t get it you fool, conservatives don’t actually care about the cost. They care about the waste – in opportunity, in lives, that comes about when you turn the “social net” into a lifestyle.
Ignorance because Jordan imagines “…the role of the state is very important. A shrinking of the state is most likely to be a reduction in freedom.” Duh. The state is there to protect us from internal and external threats. Period. Otherwise fuck off and leave us alone. It’s called freedom Jordan, but lefties don’t know what that means.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
The lefties pay the Maori’s heaps. The selfish Waitangi gravy train industry is costing the country billions, but the culturally sensitive gutless pc pollies like giving shiny things to magpies!! No wonder the local tribe leader Rick Tau is always at the races. Divide and rule eh Helen !!
Vote:Hehehehe bro, liarbour give us money to burn , eat your heart out dumb honky!!
June 11th, 2008 at 7:52 pm
One of the many interesting points raised on Commanding Heights (which really is required viewing, just google it), is the fact that when the Chicago Boys became involved in advising on Chile’s 80′s economic restructuring while Pinochet was in the last gasps of power, the left seized the opportunity to associate in the public mind market reforms with repressive regimes.
Now as we all know the one thing the left are good at is propaganda and mind manipulation because otherwise why would anyone ever vote for them, ever? (Their policies really really stink so they need to wrap them up really professionally and it’s a measure of their extreme skill that they manage to package up such stinking garbage and garner the votes they do. They should win the Academy Award for Special Effects every single year they’re so good.)
So the lefties managed to paint the free-market itself as being evil and selfish and the participants therein become inevitably tainted with their very skilled brush. Facts don’t matter, perception is everything.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 8:00 pm
“progressive politics” from the left. What a joke! Is that a Malapropism or Oxymoron ?
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 8:05 pm
I particularly like “qualifications that ought to be implicit anyway” – perhaps a plea that people need to learn to take their grain of salt more regularly, and chill a little?
Nah what he’s trying to say is that we just dont understand cause he’s just soo much more intelligent than the rest of us…..
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 8:15 pm
none of you answer that basic difference..
that the left believe in a social net/lifting everyones’ boat..
No the left believe in the politics of envy. If they believed in ‘lifting everyones boat’ they would not be enacting policies that took even more from the haves to give to the have nots – what the left try to do is bring the haves down to the level of the have nots. They dont lift everyones boat, they just put bigger holes in the bigger boats.
that the right believe in ripping away any social nets..because they ‘cost them’..
Give a man a fish, feed him for a day – teach a man to fish, feed him for his life. What we do with welfare is give the beneficiary just enough to get by, what we should be doing is tying that welfare to training programs that they can use to get into paid work. One could say the social net keeps the poor down at that level forever, removing the safety net might well make sure they dont fall off the trapeeze! Haven’t you ever heard of tough love?
Granted there are some that simply cannot work, but long term welfare should only ever be available for those people, not lazy dope smoking wankers.
once again..
how does this basic fact/difference not prove that most righties are greedy/selfish bastards..
who don’t give a fuck about anything/anyone past the ends of their own noses..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
So why should I work my arse off and miss out on the precious time with my daughters just so you can sit on your fat arse and smoke dope? You are the one being selfish and greedy all because you are too damn lazy to get off your arse and get a job! Why dont you give a fuck about anything past your own nose?
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 8:26 pm
I take it, Blair, that you exclude large corporations (start with Comalco perhaps) and businesses big, medium and small which have lobbying government for concessions like tax breaks, cheap land, planning permission and the like as a significant part of their work. That’s just in NZ of course. Then explore how Nike, for example, operate overseas.
Good for them. But why not advocate for everyone to have tax breaks, cheap land, automatic planning permisssion etc.? Something that benefits everyone instead of the selfish envy of bringing down the rich to our state of oppression?
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 8:28 pm
and they are such ‘nice’ people..righties..
eh..?
overflowing with the milk of human kindness..etc..etc..
(in their own words..eh..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
kiwitoffee:
I dunno – why do large corporates get cars cheaper than the average punter? Have you heard of this thing called bulk purchasing? I also note that Comalco have either a long-term contract (which means guaranteeing usage – do you do that for your power provider?), or are paying the spot price (do you pay spot price for you home power usage?).
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 8:48 pm
“overflowing with the milk of human kindness..etc..etc..”
You vote for politicians who force us by legislation to deprive our own family of what they need so that we can pay for you and your family you arrogant scum. Don’t talk to me about kindness, barbarians such as you know nothing of such concepts.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 8:57 pm
Red
I would really love to know why Phil U thinks he has the right to steal from us (and all genuine beneficiaries or those in need) every week.
I have no problem with some of my tax’s going to help the few genuine cases, hell I actually think they should get more but the problem is that people like Phil and the thousands of bloody Shelia’s on the DPB take (steal) from the mouths of the poor genuine bastards who deserve and need our help.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 9:23 pm
I don’t think there will be that much caring going on from the Left when Labour loses the reins of power later this year and there is an almighty bun fight for Leadership of the Labour Party. There will be plenty of opportunity for bitterness among the different tribes of Labour.
When two tribes go to war, a point is all you can score.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 9:39 pm
big bruv, when you say “The well documented generosity of right wing (and centrist) Kiwi’s “, exactly what documentation are you referring to??
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 9:41 pm
Redbaiter said
Vote:“Don’t tell me what the right believe you narrow minded ignorant bludging simian fuckwit”
hahahaha
that’s coming from the mindreader of the left
June 11th, 2008 at 9:42 pm
“I would really love to know why Phil U thinks he has the right to steal from us (and all genuine beneficiaries or those in need) every week.”
He’s a product of socialist society, a brain damaged loser without the mental depth of field to see anything beyond the leftist doctrine he preaches so profusely on here. Sucking on the leftist koolade all his miserable existence, such concepts as shame and pride and right and wrong and morality and immorality have been submerged by nihilist self focused narcissism. Its always, in the end, all about him. As it is with almost all such doctrinal leftists.
Philu whines on here about kindness, but its not him that’s giving. He’s taking. His value system (if he ever had one) has been completely disintegrated by his subservience to the vile destructive dogma of the left. His eyes are blinded, his ears are deaf, and his mind is closed. He’ll never get to where you and I are, because any chance that he might have had to make that mental shift passed him by long ago. He’s in a bottomless pit of self indulgence and denial, and if we allow it, the hordes of parasitical scum like Philu who exist in New Zealand will drag us all into the same spiritless empty abyss.
There’s no reasoning with him, there’s no shaming him. He and his ilk, from Philu to Helen Klark, cling to us like the blood sucking leeches they are, and too braindead to know any better, they’ll suck us dry of blood even when they know that as a parasite without a host, they’re doomed themselves.
So that’s why Phil thinks the way he does. The question I don’t know the answer to is- How did a nation of intelligent well educated independent hard working people come to this low? What were NZers doing to allow ignorant knuckle dragging nihilistic lemmings like Phil to proliferate in such overpowering numbers and to collectively destroy what was once such a wonderful country? How the hell did good people let this disaster occur???
There’s another question I don’t know the answer to. “Can it ever be put right??”
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
another ‘funny’ aspect of righties..and the source of much of their anger..(c.f…this thread..)
..is that deep down..they feel/worry that other people might be having a better time than them..
(which they usually are..
cos’ righties are such uptight/anal/humourless/’sad’ creatures..
knowing the cost of some things..and the value of sweet fuck all..
they actually deserve our pity..
(does anyone really think redbaiter is a ‘happy soul’..?..skipping thru’ life..?
nuff said….)
sad miserablist gits..!
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 9:47 pm
Unfortunately phil, normally vociferous on subjects he cares about, has little to say in defence of his chosen lifestyle which apparently, everyone who cares about people, should support.
This is a good example of the vapour in the left’s arguments. They accuse conservatives of uncaring, cancerous, corrosive, selfish and evil behaviour. Yet someone supported by the system and is highly educated and lucid is unwilling to defend it.
How about justifying, logically (in ellipses if you like – sorry people, have to give him the chance), why we all on this blog need to pay not only for your *chosen* lifestyle phil but also for the education of your child? Why is that just? Why is that necessary? Why oh why do we need to support you and your child when by all accounts on this and your own blog, you’re more than capable of doing so yourself?
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 9:47 pm
No answer then phil?
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 9:50 pm
Me a selfish rightie? Too bloody right and it’s all because of Jordan’s socialist government.
You see, when people are taxed to death; when government spending increases by 85% over 8 years – sucking the life out of hardworking Mums and Dads; when mortgage interest rates hit 10% in a country where the average wage is pathetic and home ownership is relatively high; when petrol, milk, cheese etc go through the roof – when all this happens Jordan, and more, causing pain in people’s homes, damn right they are going to fend for themselves to put food on the table and heating in their homes during winter.
Just ask the History academic what happened in the past when people couldn’t afford food and there was no electricity. They fend for themselves; sometimes they riot.
Yep, I am a selfish rightie. I am looking after myself and my family Jordan. And it’s all because of your socialist, high-taxing, big-spending, largesse government.
You caused it. No one else. But don’t try and fix it. Just piss off out of government for 50 yrs. That should do it.
Vote:June 11th, 2008 at 9:53 pm
Coming from someone who is sustained on welfare, the sweat of the efforts of ‘those uptight/anal’ ones, this is a particularly disgusting display of verbal sewage… even by your own low standards. That large bag of Jamaica’s finest must have messed you up pretty badly.
Vote:June 12th, 2008 at 12:05 am
DPF, I have very little political common ground with you, even less with the majority of your commenters. I can definitely sympathise with your complaint here though, it is one of the reasons I can never take The Standard seriously. By-the-by, you’re guilty of making this sort of broad, shallow analysis as well, especially when it comes to the Greens (who, incidentally, I wouldn’t touch with a barge pole).
Vote:June 12th, 2008 at 12:24 am
I remember seeing a letter in the New Zealand hearld a while back (from a devout socialist) which illustrated the problem the far left has understanding why people might encourage right wing policy. It noted that we should not have tax cuts because the money would be better spent on social initiatives. It went on to say that that the rich would just have to “put up” with taxes.
I felt this attitude missed a critical point: those on middle to high incomes, who are in high international demand DO NOT have to put up with high taxes; they can simply move to another country, at which time our country loses any money invested in schooling/training them, the tax they could produce, the jobs they may create through their enterprise etc. This phernomenon is (as we all know) referred to as the brain drain. In much the same way as a business competes for customers, countries compete for skilled migrants who can improve the state of the economy. A country having high taxes is like a company setting its pricing higher than its competitors, and then becomming puzzled when it loses all its paying customers.
Vote:June 12th, 2008 at 7:16 am
“Funnily enough the most self-absorbed, selfish and downright miserable people I have ever met have been, almost without exception, socialists.”
Perhaps that is why left-wing MPs’ children commit suicide in such alarming numbers. Loser parents, ………
Vote:June 12th, 2008 at 8:43 am
Come on PhilU, its a simple question and one that we really should demand an answer.
Vote:June 12th, 2008 at 8:44 am
keep digging folks..!
your words couldn’t provide a clearer template for what you lot are really like..
and couldn’t be clearer proof of the thesis that..in the main..righties are really nasty self-obsessed..etc..etc..
(with perhaps duxton reaching a nadir of sorts..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:June 12th, 2008 at 8:50 am
Simple question from me too big bruv! 9:39 post
Vote:June 12th, 2008 at 8:52 am
Matty Smith, Jordan is not on the Standard. At the Standard, the bloggers will reply to what you say – Jordan doesn’t.
Vote:June 12th, 2008 at 11:27 am
Rather, engage with what you say.
Vote:June 12th, 2008 at 11:41 am
Exactly. We have to stop thinking of NZ as a fixed wealth zone where more equitable distribution of today’s wealth-pie is needed. To pursue that is to condemn NZ to a backwards slide … were we all become increasingly poorer but ‘mercifully’ at the same rate. I don’t want this for NZ.
Vote:June 12th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
This thread seems to be pretty much dead, but I must give a plug to Kiva.org – charitable righties can give small loans to the working poor to purchase capital for their business!
Vote:June 12th, 2008 at 12:32 pm
stephen – good link thanks. i’ve been involved in a couple of schemes like this – one in india and the other in the philippines. i love the idea of helping people with initiative gain access to capital to better provide for their families and communities. that said, i’m a bit nervous about how the funds find their way to some of these places – more to the point how much of it actually ends up providing the resources needed by the loan recipient. will investigate further. thanks.
Vote:June 12th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
There are a few issues, but none like the ones you mention, that I know of. If it makes a jot of difference, Jeffrey Sachs is a big fan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Sachs
Vote: