Secret Recordings
August 6th, 2008 at 8:13 am by David FarrarI suspected, reading the Bill English transcript, that this was not some conversation picked up accidentially between a delgate and Bill. It seemed to me the person he was talking to was most likely to have been the one doing the recording – ie someone fraudulently posing as a National Party delegate asked him questions, while secretly taping him.
This was confirmed with the release of recordings with Lockwood Smith. So my suspicions were correct. I am not terribly shocked – in fact I had predicted such tactics in presentations I have done to the Chamber of Commerce etc. We have seen similar in the US.
This will to some degree set off a race to the bottom as secret tape recordings become a standard tactic in politics.
Anyway let us go to what Lockwood said, according to NZ Herald:
There’s some bloody dead fish you have to swallow … to get into Government to do the kinds of things you want to do … and you have to balance up what really matters.
Heh the term is dead rats. This part is just the obvious. You drop unpopular policies in the areas that do not matter so much so you get to do work in the areas that matter most. This is for example why Labour finally gacve in on tax cuts – to get a fourth term.
If you try to do everything differently you’ll scare the horses and under MMP it’s very hard to win.
Again nothing unusual there.
Once we have gained the confidence of the people, we’ve got more chance of doing more things.
This is in fact the exact opposite of having a secret agenda. I have said much the same on this blog – you gain confidence by keeping your promises, not breaking them, and establishing good faith with the electorate. If National, for examples, serves a first term without selling any state assets, then it means if they campaign in 2011 to consider selling (for example) 25% of Solid Energy, people will trust National that they would only sell those assets it says it will, and not sell everything. You do not gain confidence to break it – you gain it, to keep faith with it. Otherwise you get thrown out.
We may be able to do some things we believe we need to do, perhaps go through a discussion document process … you wouldn’t be able to do them straight off … I’m hoping that we’ll do some useful things that way that may not be policy right now.
And again here he is talking good faith again – talking about having a public discussion process on proposed policies.
Labour are desperate to work up the fear of broken promises and secret agendas, because once National is in office – and does keep its promises, they will never have that weapon again. Anyone who thinks John Key is going to break his election commitments does not know the man well. My prediction is he will have a big wall chart of all the election commitments and have monthly progress reports on how things are going towards implementing them. There will in fact be a zealousness about making sure that in 2011, no-one can seriously claim National broke its word.
Related posts:
- Final secret tape due today or tomorrow
- The secret Key tried to bury
- The secret mini-Budget
- The Secret Really Sensible Sentencing Trust
August 6th, 2008 at 8:20 am
Oh dear how sad, i wonder what secret recording will come out today.
Vote:And it’s only Wednesday.
August 6th, 2008 at 8:21 am
Spot on David, Liarbore set the tone in taking the campaign to dishonest, cheating and underhand depths – Hi Hulun, Mikhael!
No wonder most of the country want to get rid of them – like those panel beaters in the HOS who are supposedly in the diehard Liarbore demographic.
Who do YOU trust NZ?
Hulun or John.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:26 am
Now come on DPF – thre’s spin, and then there’s spin!. Nice try, attempting to divert the discussion away from what senior National Party MPs actually said, but that’s the real issue, not who recorded Bill and Lockwood.
As I blogged over at gblog:
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:31 am
The impact of this could be to progressively close down discussion/opinion from and with anyone connected with a political party.
The EFA[B] of conversations
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:32 am
Imagine the hysteria from Dear Leader if a National Party stooge was secretly recording her. The squeals of “hidden agenda” would only be heard by dogs.
And as for Williamsons comments whats the issue? How much legislation has Dear Leader passed that wasn’t on her pledge card? She cmapigned on electioral reform? She promised to repeal section 59? She promised no tax cuts ever? I think not.
The media have soiled their own nappies on this one as well. Less breathless excitment and more reporting you useless failures who couldn’t get jobs outside New Zealand.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:33 am
Is that it?
Where’s the scandal there?
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:33 am
But still if you are big noting in private what you are too afraid to say in public and then make a groveling apology it does not look that flash does it.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:35 am
To be fair what else are the media going to report on in NZ? The AB’s make a backline change? Graeme Henry takes a teenage lover?
Hulun and Mikhael are soiling their own nappies. No-one likes a bunch of tell-tale whiney pants like Liarbore.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:36 am
This mob have lost the plot. Inventory is correct in other posts that Kiwi’s sense of fair play is being assaulted by this governments desperate grab for power.
The secret recordings, on both sides, sickens me as it means we are debating non-issues when the major issues are being ignored.
Say what you like lefties but Winston and more importantly Helen’s support of him are making her look more like she belongs in Burma and not in NZ.
Expat I think the answer is obvious…NOT HELLEN.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:36 am
I thought Key’s challenge to Clark on Breakfast this morning was excellent – endorse, condone or condemn. I’ve blogged about it at Keeping Stock,and will add the Breakfast video as soon as it is online.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:36 am
DPF:
There would have to be. Otherwise National faces another 9 years on the opposition benches. But I’m wondering how much of this is simply the left projecting their own motives and agendas onto others.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:37 am
Labour are once again scrabbling desperately to cling to power.
The fact is that there is absolutely no reason not to trust John Key. He has shown to all that he is a man of his word. The New Zealand public understands that he, and the National party, will never lie to them. Any concept that they would will just be laughed off.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:38 am
John Dalley (8:20am) – the LAX “cubicle tapes”?
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:41 am
Key has obviously taken to politics after seeing Hulun and Mikhael root NZ for the last decade.
He has a goal, to take the country forward instead of into a socialist backwater.
(Hulun and Mikhael – student politicians with no other career path)
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:42 am
Getstaffed is right. We have pretty free access to MPs but that freedom requires trust which has now been abused. There is nothing startling in the conversations but the fact they’ve been recorded will make politicians a lot more guarded which is our loss.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:42 am
The secret recordings, on both sides
OK chfr if you are going to make slurs like that you need to back it up with some cold hard evidence or you will become a laughing stock pretty quick mate.
So where do you get this ‘both sides’ bollocks from? Can you show me any proof that National has ever indulged in such disgusting gutter tactics?
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:44 am
Well, I’ve been reliably informed that Nanaia Mahuta has been, shall we say, considerably more forthright about her views on the Foreshore & Seabed Act in private than she ever has — or ever will be — in public. Big whoop. Mahuta is hardly the first MP of any party who has voted for legislation they personally strongly disagree with, and have vehemently argued against in caucus.
But I do know one thing for sure, I’ve been on many marae where being caught surreptitiously recording proceeding would result in leaving with the recorder firmly lodged where the sun only shines during an open air autopsy.
And I’ve just heard Cullen bitch on National Radio that he’s been “unknowingly recorded” by TVNZ, and had that broadcast. Rather disingenuous – a good rule of thumb is, where the media are concerned, you assume every microphone openly sitting on the desk in front of you is live at all times. And unlike the EFA, ‘off the record’ doesn’t retrospectively erase the indiscrete or plain stupid blurt. There’s no point of comparison between that, and (say) my walking up to Michael Cullen at an event and taping a conversation without his knowledge or consent. Cullen knows that.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:46 am
Cullen is an underhand little man who has a power fetish and a penchant for expensive facial treatments.
Sound like any historical figures?
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:47 am
gooner – it’s a scandal because the wide-eyed MSM declare it so.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:47 am
It occurs to me, that while the left want to paint this as “caught telling what’s really planned to right-wing supporters in secret”…. it might equally be “hinting to the wingnuts that you’re on their side” when in fact you have no genuine plans to be extreme….
It might not be an underhand way of attracting the centre-left, but an underhand way of keeping the more extreme in the middle with you rather than defecting to someone like Act?
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:48 am
No surprises that Labour have sunk to new low levels to attack National. They must be shit scared if they cannot win an election by debating the points and giving the population a chance to read the facts and decide on merit.
No way – Labour want this election to be about sleeze, lies, deceit and made up allegations designed to put the shits into the voters. Scary thing is that National are not dealing with it too well.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:48 am
pushmepullu said: The fact is that there is absolutely no reason not to trust John Key. He has shown to all that he is a man of his word.
So was David Lange, but that didn’t stop the hidden agenda from being forwarded very effectively behind his and the public’s backs in the late ’80s. I, for one, don’t want another four years of a hidden far-right agenda being implemented before Key realises he’s been gazumped from within his own party and calls for a cuppa.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:48 am
Fletcher, extremists don’t vote ACT
They vote Green, Maori or Labour
ACT is a party for pragmatic realists with a focus on the economic wellbeing of the country, not extremists
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:49 am
I don’t think that Lockwood’s words were that damaging in themselves; they seemed pretty straightforward to me. What makes them damaging is the policy void that National currently has, which is allowing fairly innocuous phrases like this to be construed as proof of a hidden agenda.
National only has itself to blame. It’s strategy so far has been ‘No policy, just release John Key’s smiling face’. And this has been working well, so congratulations on your success. But if this is your strategy, you can’t bitch when people attack Key himself, and when people accuse you of a secret policy plan. With no obvious policy (half a page of bullets don’t count), Key is all there is to attack, and after all, he’s the only National member allowed to get any visibility. And secondly, National must have a comprehensive stack of policies, so refusing to let them see the light of day smacks of fear that there’ll be an electoral backlash. Are they truly that bad? Maybe they’re not, but in the meantime, those of us who oppose National can only assume the worst (we remember 1990 after all).
I know the arguement for withholding policy; for tactical advantage during the election campaign. Fair enough, your decision. But gaining a tactical advantage may be causing you a strategic setback.
If you want to innoculate yourself against these ‘hidden recordings’, come out and say what you stand for in detail, and argue the toss. Explain why you want to sell state assets, privatise health and education and all the rest. Then there’s nothing secret to record.
Your call National. In the meantime, we’ll just imagine how National plans to enrich the rich and impoverish the poor as it did in the 90s. Because we have nothing else to go on…….
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:50 am
Toad, perhaps you need to borrow a clue – David Lange wasn’t in the National party. I don’t think your example disproves my point.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:52 am
Hmm. That “discussion document process” sounds sinister.
And, with a small change, English’s comments can be put in perspective..
(National Dude) “What about getting rid of MPs superannuation?”
“Well, eventually, but not now. Well, its working. A lot of our supporters get a bit antsy about it, but its working. It’s like a lot of things…”
I’m sure we’d all come away with the certain knowledge that Bill was going to get rid of MP Super
JC
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:53 am
BTW, I do find the Cullen Doctrine of Good Governance rather intriguing, from a purely libertarian POV. From this day forth, no government shall ever propose, promote or pass any legislation or policy platform that is not explicitly flagged before the previous election. That’s a “secret agenda”.
Hum… anyone else care to point out the rather glaring practical flaws in that?
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:54 am
Watergate erupted over the bugging of the Democratic Party Headquarters at the Watergate Hotel.
Vote:This should be called Labourgate or named after the conference venue.
Does anyone know where it was held? – I cannot find out from the net.
In the meantime just keep saying Labourgate and when you get a chance ask Cullen if he was the Nixonian mastermind behind the whole thing.
August 6th, 2008 at 8:56 am
Wait a mo’, Mr Wilton (for I presume it is thee), over at the Standard there is no ‘secret agenda’ but explicit vicious attacks on workers, the elderly, Maori etc. Could you please get the story straight?
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:57 am
Craig Ranapia said:Well, I’ve been reliably informed that Nanaia Mahuta has been, shall we say, considerably more forthright about her views on the Foreshore & Seabed Act in private than she ever has — or ever will be — in public. Big whoop. Mahuta is hardly the first MP of any party who has voted for legislation they personally strongly disagree with, and have vehemently argued against in caucus.
Agreed, Craig. But there is a difference. Nanaia Mahuta likely disagrees with the policy, and likely says so in private. She doesn’t take the next step though, which is to privately reveal plans for the party to implement her personal agenda, rather than its publicly announced one. That is what Bill English and Lockwood Smith have been sprung doing.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 9:03 am
“ACT is a party for pragmatic realists with a focus on the economic wellbeing of the country, not extremists”-pushmepullu
Obviously, wherever you personally sit on the political scale, you think of yourself as being reasonable, normal, realistic, etc….
And wherever you are, there will be other people who are further left than you and further right…….. and the ones that are furthest from your own point of view are extremists….. to the left and the right.
If, when you look around, you find no recognized party further from the centre than yourself…. then you are, in a New Zealand context, “extreme”…. But yes… on a global scale Ac are not as “extreme right’ as many others….. and as long as you agree that ACT are to the right of National, my original point still stands, even if you dont like my use of the E word.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 9:04 am
pushmewankyou said..
“..Can you show me any proof that National has ever indulged in such disgusting gutter tactics?..”
wot..as in lying through their teeth to us..?
and..as it was in 2005..having secret agendas spilling out of their pockets..?
..how does that rank on the ‘gutter-tactic-scale’..?
http://whoar.co.nz/2008/see-johnsee-john-spin/
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 9:07 am
Disagree. English expressed a personal view that did not rule out selling Kiwibank at sometime in the future. Key has been pretty clear: No asset sales in the first term.
If English expressed a personal view that did not rule out National starting a space programme would the media be crowing about a secret agenda to do just that?
As for Smith’s comments, they about as innocuous as they come.
A best MSM are simply desperate to be seen as balanced. At worst they are using their powerful grip on the general population’s information diet to yank voters this way and that.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 9:08 am
One thing that has really got my goat about the National Party these last two days is the way they have been apologetic rather than annoyed!
If anyone had released tapes of H1 talking in private she would have damned them to hell (or is that Helen? NO! Hell was right) and told them where to go with their scurrilous scandal scoop snooping. JK needs to get into top gear and ask when such underhanded tactics popped into NZ politics, then ask H1 if she’s stopped whipping her party members yet!
AS for the allegations! Laughable! Just point to the purchase of Scare New Zealand and Uncle Michael’s Train Set and ask where those $2 billion were in Labour’s pre election policy platforms!
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 9:09 am
Toad:
I’ve got a newly-privatised bridge to sell you if you really believe that. To be honest, and quite unpartisan about it, both Labour and National (and even the Greens, Toad) have been on the receiving end of over-hyped and under-powered ‘gotcha!’ non-stories like this from Three News and political editor Duncan Garner. The only thing that’s been ‘sprung’ here, is just how lightweight, dumbed-down and downright tabloid Three’s news and current affairs has become. As I said back in March, Chris Faafoi chasing Brian Connell into the loo had no news value whatsoever but it was miraculous — causing my first, last and very small spasm of sympathy for Connell.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 9:11 am
Talk about a non-story. Could not believe this was the top story on 3news last night. The headline should have been “Lockwood Smith gets tape recorded on slow news day”.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 9:12 am
philu:
To save everyone from clicking through to the land where lost periods are banished to – philu’s basic assertion is that Bill English and Lockwood Smith are indicators of a secret agenda from National. Unfortunately he is wrong as getstaffed so eloquently explained.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 9:15 am
Why the hell did Key even mention Super, jeez, it even got my true
national supporting neighbor’s back up.
Why bother mentioning some thing unless some among the Nat MPs
believe that state Super is too generous and should be lowered.
Still believe you will bolt in with over 50% over the votes Nats ?
Vote:Better keep in well with the well tanned mob.
August 6th, 2008 at 9:15 am
There is an implication here that the nature of the questions to both English and Smith were directed at getting good copy and therefore the questioner is a Labour Party mole. This is possible, but there is no evidence for this. For starters the things said by English & Smith are just what you might expect from politicians behind closed doors. Then there is the email information Nicky Hagar has been getting for years. To me this points to a disgruntled insider, not a one off spy. It seems to me that one or more National Party people are sabotaging the campaign. Expect this to continue.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 9:16 am
OK philu..
So Labour campaigned in 2005..
on supporting anti-smacking legislation..
on buying railways..
and blocking the AIA sale..?
yeah right..!
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 9:16 am
phool simply repeatign an slur is not EVIDENCE or anything other than your crapweasle toadying to your masters on the 9th floor.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 9:25 am
“..# Inventory2 (2057) Add karma Subtract karma +0 Says:
August 6th, 2008 at 9:16 am
OK philu..
So Labour campaigned in 2005..
on supporting anti-smacking legislation..
on buying railways..
and blocking the AIA sale..?
yeah right..!..”
there is a world of difference between dealing with eventualities that crop up in the course of an administration.(c.f..buying rail..)
..and running an election campaign that is a pack of lies..intended to fool/’reassure’ voters..
..all the while telling your mates..(c.f..the aussie insurance giants)..out of the side of your mouths that ‘she’ll be right..!..nudge nudge..wink wink)
..and hiding plans to privatise-by-stealth/to cut services/to ‘pay out’ your money-masters..(c.f…aussie insurance giants..and..and..)
..a new/true slogan for national..?
(wanna ‘buy’ a political party..?’..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 9:28 am
Quick phool flail incoherantly…, that show them.
Clean up isle five, a gibbering crapweasle has exploded.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 9:31 am
Bullsh*t phil – Clark is on record in an interview just before the election as saying that she wouldn’t support the anti-smacking legislation:
“Helen Clark: A lot of people aren’t comfortable with beatings but they don’t want to see, you know, stressed and harassed parents, you know, pulled in by the police because they, they smacked a child.
Bob McCroskie: So you do not want to see smacking banned?
Helen Clark: Absolutely not, I think you are trying to defy human nature.”
Who had a secret agenda? Who is a hypocrite?
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 9:32 am
I don’t see anything newsworthy in what either English or Smith have said in their conversations when taken in context. The news media must be desperate for new stories to have picked up on this!
Vote:Meanwhile who exactly has stooped to these new low levels to record these conversations – the person/s must be identified for what they are. Come on – put your hand up!
This Labour-led government is really scraping the bottom of the barrel for muck!
I can’t wait for National to get in and manage our country, Labour seem to be doing everything but.
August 6th, 2008 at 9:34 am
National should go straight onto the attack and ask a question of the PM in the house today.
‘As the self appointed chief political strategist for the Labour Party, can she confirm that the deliberate recording and publishing of National MP’s private conversations is the Labour Party’s cjief political strategy for this election campaign?’
Supplementary
Can she confirm that the reason this is the party’s chief political strategy the fact that the party is broke and it’s not very expensive to find some idiot with a cell phone who will pose as a conference delegate?
As an aside, one wonders whether in fact it really is a chief political strategy of the people at TV3.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 9:37 am
you just wait to the next polls..muzza..
..then you will see the extent to which the scales have fallen from the eyes..
(warning..!..incoming..!..)
..eh..?
..a couple weeks ago i told you to enjoy the good times..
..cos’ they would be ending soon..
..did you take my advice..?
and..will you all be packing up your ‘we will rule alone!’ delusion..?..now..?
..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 9:39 am
Craig,
“Wait a mo’, Mr Wilton (for I presume it is thee), over at the Standard there is no ’secret agenda’ but explicit vicious attacks on workers, the elderly, Maori etc. Could you please get the story straight?
”
Different Tane W; similar name, dissimilar DNA (I think he posts here as just plain ‘Tane’). So I’m not sure what story you want me to get straight, and I stand by what I posted.
Cheers,
The Other Tane W
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 9:46 am
hey..!..inventory..!
that anti-smacking legislation was negotiated by the greens..post-election..
..and you lot..
..you want to flog off a.c.c..and..and..
..and let’s just put this ‘no asset sales in first term’ bullshit to bed..shall we..?
..the ‘plan’..is that during the first term you ‘prepare them for sale’..eh..?
(and y’know..that pretty much gives open slather..eh..?)
to carve them up/destabilise/underfund..etc..eh..?
there are many different ways to skin the privatisation cat..eh..?
especially when you have/exhibet the low-rat
cunning/eagerness/willingness to lie/bullshit..
..of a pack of nattys..
..on the ‘make’/working for ‘pay-day’..
..for them..and for those who have bought them..
(that’s the difference..inventory..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 9:50 am
Philu, you’ve been promising a turnaround in the polls since April. Any reason why we should heed your predictions now when in the past they have proven so utterly wrong?
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 9:50 am
Philu, you’re a fucking illiterate idiot and to sit on welfare and raise your son the way you do “because you love him” is sheer stupidity and hypocrisy.
Get a job and teach him some fucking self respect and independence you loser.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 9:55 am
Sigh For those Socialist supporters who have forgotten or where in nappies in the 1980s let me remind you that your beloved heavenly Leader and her Deputy Sherriff were both members of s government thatw as elected on a series of policies and then went on to implement a series of policies that were never part of their manifesto.
So again we have the same old sad spectacle of the kettle calling the pot black.
And as the old saying goes 2 can play at that game Mikey W was thge first to be caught out and did you Socialist supporters squeal like stuck pigs at the time Remember arseholes.
So and others await you lot to make a slip
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 9:57 am
“..# pushmepullu (330) Add karma Subtract karma +0 Says:
August 6th, 2008 at 9:50 am
Philu, you’ve been promising a turnaround in the polls since April. Any reason why we should heed your predictions now when in the past they have proven so utterly wrong?..”
um..i haven’t..
and anyway..even if i did..
..what’s wrong with a bit of delayed gratification..?
..you should try it some time..
..(psstt..!..it might help end those ‘complaints’ you get..eh..?)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 10:00 am
Phil, some numbers please to go with your prediction. The “scales falling from people’s eyes” means what – lower than 50% for National? Any chance you’ll put some money behind that prediction?
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 10:00 am
“..gd (1350) Add karma Subtract karma +0 Says:
August 6th, 2008 at 9:55 am
Sigh For those Socialist supporters who have forgotten or where in nappies in the 1980s let me remind you that your beloved heavenly Leader and her Deputy Sherriff were both members of s government thatw as elected on a series of policies and then went on to implement a series of policies that were never part of their manifesto..”
precisely..!
and this is when labour learnt that ‘don’t bullshit/secret agenda’ pre-election !’..imperative..
..that one that national (obviously)..has yet to learn..
eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 10:02 am
definitely lower than 50%..
..by how much is the unknown..
..wanna guess..?
“..feel the burn..!..”
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 10:03 am
Talk about a storm in a teacup. What political party does not contain politicians that have ideas about where they hope the party will head to in the future?
When I first heard that National had a diabolical plot to sell KiwiBank my first thought was finally, now I have a reason to vote for them. It was quite disappointing to hear that it was not their policy.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 10:06 am
So where do you get this ‘both sides’ bollocks from?
I’d just be guessing, but maybe he’s thinking of what came out of the Labour Conference?
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 10:08 am
could you tell that to as many people as possible ..?
..plse maddy..?
ta..!
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 10:13 am
Great Strategy again from National. Leak their own recordings. After all when the full recordings are revealed we see nothing of significance. Gets National top of the news. Then gets Labour in whining mode (and we all hate whiners). Also taints Labour with the suspicion that they have planted spys in National. The aplogies get National in the news again. And Key gets to demonstrate his leadership, and the fact that he runs the team. And if Nationals in the news then Labour isn’t. Well done.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 10:16 am
There will in fact be a zealousness about making sure that in 2011, no-one can seriously claim National broke its word.
Then it is imperative that National gets the Emissions Trading Scheme off the agenda. If they are serious about improving NZ’s economic performance, and serious about truth, then it should be at least subject to a Royal Commission to investigate the facts and repercussions (as was Genetic Modification).
Considering the tatty state of global warming facts, the basis for ETS is far too questionable to be pursuing in haste.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 10:18 am
you really are a ‘glass half-full ‘kind person..eh l.c..?
either that..or deeply deluded/in denial..
eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 10:33 am
Tane W.:
I withdraw and apologise for the case of mistaken identity – as well as insult of being mistaken for a sub-Standard hack.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 10:33 am
Tane W.:
I withdraw and apologise for the case of mistaken identity – as well as the insult of being mistaken for a sub-Standard hack.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 10:34 am
Sorry Philu, just my take on the matter. It assumes that there is some strategic planning going on in National to control the media (which may be biased against them) via a tactic such as this. Better to control your own ‘leaks’. It’s the sort of thing I would do if I was serious about getting elected.
This has also introduced to the media/public English and Smith – so maybe National has a bit of a team rather than just one face.
My coffee cup is now empty – time to refill it.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 10:44 am
Murray at 8.32 AM, dead right. Come on, why is nobody else taking up this point? Any time that anyone has got “inside” the hidden agenda of the Heleban by whatever means, what has been the result? Deafening silence from the MSM. Nil coverage. Condemnation and smearing of the people involved. Imagine if this exact thing had just been done, i.e., recorded Mikhail Kullen and Trevor Mallard ranting candidly about “rich pricks”, and recorded H1 and H2 candidly discussing the feminazi agenda for NZ fathers, what do you think would have become of it?
BLEEAAHHH. BLEEAAHH. The MSM in NZ is making me chunder on an almost daily basis now.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 10:47 am
What a coincidence, eh, someone called Tane “W”, who walks and quacks and looks just like the “other” Tane………
[DPF: Tane W I have met and it is his real name. He has been a Green candidate. Tane Wilton is the name used by one of The Standard authors and is a separate person. I don't think it is his real name]
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 10:47 am
I am pleased Key is finally kicking back – Labour are completely desperate and I doubt they have have contemplated how deep the shit is for them. I think that Keys strategies are working brilliantly for the Nats and he will start showing some genuine leadership qualities from here on in. The tapes contain nothing of substance and should be reassurance that a thinking process and debate is actually occuring with the Nat party – according to Helen this should not be tolerated and what is best for NZ should not be considered. 55% plus for the Nats on election day.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 10:52 am
Once again I am reminded of Michael Bassetts claim that Helen said after the 1990 election loss that she would be as vicious as it took to get Labour elected again. Nothing has changed.
Vote:That quote should be put up in lights for all to see so her actions can be judged by it. John Key should start throwing it around to support his claim of a dirty campaign.
August 6th, 2008 at 11:18 am
Key hits back…pretty hard too:
“If she’s going to do everything from rort the electoral law, to get (journalist and author) Nicky Hager to listen into our emails, to go out there and get young Labour affiliates to be bugging our personal conversations, well that’s her style of politics.”
Looks like open warfare now. Clarkson’s in-house statements that Winston is a liar pale by comparison.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 11:20 am
David said:
Wow, that serious hey, not just a wall chart, but a big one. That’s a new level of accountability that is. This new fangled private sector sophistication is really going stir things up.
Still, I don’t know who did the taping, and I also worry about the degeneration of standards, but flailing about and blaming Labour; what complete bollocks. You think Helen’s got a special forces wing? National’s caught with it’s pants down, the shallowness of the policies released to date is revealed as not just about the limitations of the Leader, thanks Bill, but also the need for space to do different stuff altogether (thanks Lockwood – famous for breaking a promise you might recall).
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 11:29 am
Really this is despicable.
In the UK, this would be mega minus points for this revelation. In France it would be the Guillotine!
My concern is that this Government is using all the Secret Service tactics deployed to ostensibly combat
Terrorism.
If they have used the Western Alliance decoding facilities, then it will come back to haunt them.
Don’t forget that EVERY phone conversation is recorded. All Faxes are scrutinised. Every txt and e-mail is held for posterity.
Even the keystrokes that you cancel are logged.
If the Standing Government continues to resort to underhand tactics like this, then we truly live in a Police State.
Labour will lose in the popular vote, and they will screw anybody to hang on!
Bar Stewards.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 11:38 am
That is a good point, “Lipper”. If the US Government was doing to suspected terrorist organisations, what is being done to the Nats and their allies here in NZ, the uproar from the MSM would, and does, reach the heavens. Let alone what the uproar would be if it was happening to the political opponents of George w. Bush, or if it was happening to a Labour opposition, or to the Labour government.
Bob Jones or someone like him, needs to get into the media business and run the socialist weasels and stooges that currently infest it, out of town. Or hopefully “old media” is on its way out, and “new media” will avoid capture by the current mob who are so twisted they could hide behind a corkscrew.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 11:42 am
Phil/Liper, there’s surely a support group for your paranoid conspiracy theories, I suspect Lindsay Perigo’s a member.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 11:45 am
I note that dear corrupt leader has been offered the chance to go on radio live this morning to refute the allegations that the Labour party are behind these recordings, she has refused to do so.
I wonder why?
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 11:46 am
Oh, there you go, another member – BBs here; perhaps this is the support group?
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 11:48 am
Paul
What is wrong with asking the PM if she is behind these recordings?
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 11:51 am
What’s wrong with asking John Key if he’s stopped beating his wife?
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 11:58 am
Paul
You seem to be worried about this, does this mean that Klark is the one who authorised the recordings?
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
No BB, I’m not; I’m also not so silly as to fall for stupid misdirection. National’s attempting to avoid responsibility by suggesting it was a set-up, that Clark did it, that they’ve been misquoted etc. What about the mispeaking on ACC, on kiwisaver, on IR? There’s a pattern here fella.
But look, if it was Labour activists, they’re dickheads – just like the dickheads who taped Mike Williams. Any evidence of this? Is National still pretending the email leak was a hacker or have we finally heard admission that it was a disgruntled PA?
Still, does Bill think John’s nice-but-dim? Has Lockwood not learned the lesson from 1991; stop lying!
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
Paul Williams – Forgetting your party alignment for a minute… is Helen Clark honest enough for you to support her leading our country?
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
Paul
The only liar here is you, Dr Lockwood Smith said nothing at all that could be construed as being part of the so called National hidden agenda, the fact that you and other lefties keep saying that does only highlights your desperation to retain power.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 12:21 pm
In-fricken-credible. I’m a “conspiracy theorist”, am I, just because I point out that the MSM inevitably reacts in completely opposite ways to exactly the same circumstances, depending on the political stripe of the people involved. That’s not “conspiracy theory”, Paul Williams, that’s statin’ the bleedin’ obvious.
I repeat what I said above: Bob Jones or someone like him, needs to get into the media business and run the socialist weasels and stooges that currently infest it, out of town. Or hopefully “old media” is on its way out, and “new media” will avoid capture by the current mob who are so twisted they could hide behind a corkscrew.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
getstaffed, firstly, I’m not a member of any political party and secondly, yes.
Do you think Key is honest enough, smart enough or experienced enough to be PM? Why?
BB, Lockwood lied essentially to my face in 1990; he signed a pledge at the University of Waikato (and several others) promising not to increase fees and promising to resign if he did; it’s a matter of well recorded public history what happened. Smarten up or move on.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
given lockwoods’ history of huge pre-election mincie-pies..
him being ‘caught out’ like this..
..is like an ‘ex-junkie’ being caught filling a syringe..eh..?
..and national is revealed as the same old ‘mob’..
..serving the same masters..
..phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 12:26 pm
When the hell was that? Like er, someone said, probably a Hollow Men book to be written on Labour, it’s just that they’re way way too professional to let stuff like that get out in the open. Wishart’s stuff wasn’t anything not already in the public domain, by the sounds.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 12:26 pm
Just checked the Standard. Here’s his signature on the page.
http://www.thestandard.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/lockwoods_pledge.jpg
I was there when he did it and can assure you that it wasn’t “doctored”.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
>>for one, don’t want another four years of a hidden far-right agenda being implemented before Key realises he’s been gazumped from within his own party and calls for a cuppa.
So Toad, can you enlighten us?
Vote:What’s next in the Green parties marxist/eco-nazi hidden agenda?
August 6th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
Yeah, pretty much phil… that and the company you keep.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
Paul Williams – I regard Key as more honest, more smart and obviously less experienced (or should that be ‘tainted’) as a leader. I’m reasonably certain that the majority of NZers would share my assessment.
By contrast Clark’s megalomania is starting to become difficult for her to hide. No amount of cleverness or experience in iron fist leadership makes a politician of any party suitable for power in my view.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 12:40 pm
“..I, for one, don’t want another four years of a hidden far-right agenda being implemented before Key realises he’s been gazumped from within his own party and calls for a cuppa…”
this aspect..that toad refers to..hasn’t really been ‘aired’..
that is that key is being ‘played’ as much as we are..
..he is just the personable ‘front’..for that same old hard-right agenda..
..the same gimlet-eyed natties are sitting behind key..as sat behind brash..
..it’s the same p.r. company..as brash..
..it’s the same financial backers as brash..’
y’know..walks like a duck..quacks like a duck..?
..and key may even well feel he has dragged the party back to the centre..
..so these recordings could be as much of a shock/wake-up call to him..
..as to the rest of us..
..key may even/well be telling the truth that he has not discussed privatising/flogging-off kiwibank etc…
..he just wasn’t invited to/told about those meetings..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 12:43 pm
Fair enough, I don’t agree but I can understand your point of view. I think he’s a complete light-weight who’ll buckle under the pressure of the Treasury benches should he ever sit on them.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
Paul
Lockwood is to be congratulated if he manged to piss off a few students, however once again you tell half the story.
When National came to power in 1990 they did so on the back of pledges totaling roughly $770 million, they were told by the outgoing Labour government (the failed socialist version not the great one from 84-87) that the books were all in order and the country did not face a financial crisis, Labour LIED then as they are lying again now.
You know full well that the fist crisis National faced was having to bail out the BNZ to the tune of some $670 million, this is the same BNZ that Douglas wanted to sell and the same BNZ that Clark, Cullen, Anderton and Dyson managed to convince that gutless wanker Lange to keep a hold of, had Lange not been so stupid the NZ govt would not have had to bail out the BNZ.
So yes the Nat’s were forced to go back on a few promises, if it annoyed you as a student then too fucking bad, if you are as smart as you make out then you should be able to work out that the people you should have been pissed off with were your dirty stinking socialist pals inside the Labour party but then that would involve facing the truth and we all know that Labour party supporters and the truth are not well acquainted.
So Paul please take your lies and bullshit somewhere else, the public have had enough of your control freak party and enough of being told what is good for them and what is not.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
Deleted, due to a double up. See next post down
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
“..So yes the Nat’s were forced to go back on a few promises, if it annoyed you as a student then too fucking bad,..”
in their own words..eh..?
and don’t ya luv that ‘you are ignorant peasants..we know best/are born to rule’ theme..?
what it means is that they can lie/bullshit to us ‘ignorant peasants’..
..with nary a qualm..
..as they are now doing..
..again..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
Craig R,
“Tane W.:
I withdraw and apologise for the case of mistaken identity – as well as the insult of being mistaken for a sub-Standard hack.”
No worries, it confused me at first as well when he started posting here. I can’t say I agree with you about his writing; I like it, but then I am a fairly left-leaning Green….
Back on topic, if National simply filled the policy void and fought openly about what it stands for, then this wouldn’t be such a problem. It’s the lack of policy which is making crap like this stick.
Like I said above, the tactical advantage of witholding policy is leading to a strategic disadvantage, and the latter is starting to outweigh the former.
So come on National, surely you’ve got more than bullet points and a beaming smile from ‘…that nice man Mr Key.”
Cheers,
The Original Tane W
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 1:08 pm
BB, that’s an interesting rationalisation, it even contains some elements of truth albeit rearranged to make the deception look unintended. You say:
I think I understand – it’s like what “honest” Don said, sometimes you have to lie. So if National lies it’s way into office that’s ok so long as the lies are to the people you don’t like?
Lockwood’s fee promise was in two parts, he could have quit if his hand was forced as you suggest. Either way, even pre the Fiscal Responsibility Act, Lockwood knew his promise was expensive but made it anyway – it was cynical and decietful or just plain stupid. Either way, Lockwood’s got form so his comments from the weekend have to be read in that context. Remember this was the same government led by Jim Bolger, and they backtracked on some pretty significant promises including promises to poor old superannuitants too.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
A private discussion in a semi-formal function in a party conference should have the same level of authority as a caucus discussion. There are things said in caucus rooms that should never see the light of day and it is in these discussions that policy is made. I’m sure that there are things said in caucus rooms that do not reflect the public face of the party and I’m sure that there are things that are said in Labour Conferences that do not reflect policy but in fact help to shape it, and often in directions away from the extremes and in the opposite direction from previously stated policies.
This is why Labour is now advocating Tax Cuts after years of denying they have the capacity to deliver them.
The fact that this recording appears to have been deliberately solicited by someone who has entered into the National Party with the intent purpose of undermining it smacks of a level of dishonesty that we have not yet widely seen in NZ politics. This person may well be identified simply by comparing notes of who Smith and English were with when these statements were made.
If this is the new standard that some journalists of sources of journalists will stoop to in order to get an off the record comment, then the inherent result is that discussion points that should have been aired will not be. Policy development will be stifled, and the process in which policies are openly discussed by all parties within certain friendly forums will be adversely affected.
Ask yourself how whichever party you support could possibly arrive at specific policies if certain topics could not be broached because of the possibility of prying ears. What door has this type of conduct opened?
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
I see a big difference between the Williams recording and the English/ Smith recordings. Williams was on stage in front of their delegation at conference, therefore he represents the Party view. English and Smith were having private conversations and are entitled to believe they could stay as just that. Private, and their personal opinion.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
Sure you do, it’s called situational ethics.
David’s an expert practitioner, almost in the same league as Don, John, Lockwood and Bill.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 1:34 pm
Tane W, understood that you are not the other Tane although it seems there is not a lot of difference between you ideologically.
He goes on about “lack of policy” from John Key, too.
Problem is, that there is very little, it seems, that the NZ public want to be changed. However, there are a few things that they DO want changed, and that is enough to fight an election over, seeing Labour WON’T change them and the Nats will. Simple.
Stop the Nanny Statism. No “anti smacking” and food bans.
Reform the RMA. Build roads.
Abolish the EFB. Give us back our freedom of speech.
Tax Cuts.
Use Private Hospitals to clean up the waiting lists.
Get the point? It’s too late for Labour now. The things on which they have lost NZ-ers, it is too late now to change their spots because they’ve dug themselves too deep into their ideological hole on these issues.
“Goff Labour” will have to reinvent itself on them.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 1:38 pm
AH. I thought the estimable and erudite Michael Bassett would have had something to say “like it is” on the subject of this thread, and SURE ENOUGH……
TV3 and the Snooper Scoopers 06/08/2008
TV3 AND ELECTION JOURNALISM By Michael Bassett
“Last time the Exclusive Brethren became the centre of attention during the election campaign. The media tracked down a group of prosperous-looking, religiously-inclined businessmen who had had the temerity to distribute election leaflets asking pertinent questions of the Greens and others. Like the “reef fish” that David Lange used to excoriate, journalists then set off chasing the messenger rather than investigating the leaflets’ messages. This election the story is neatly reversed. Duncan Garner of TV3 has a sleuth who infiltrated the National Party’s conference with a recording device in hand. With the morals of an elderly uninvited funeral goer he/she helped themselves to the wine and savories while snuggling alongside private conversations at a private function, recording without permission some comments and probably splicing them to “sex up” the story. They were then transmitted to Garner for broadcasting to the nation. This time it’s the message we are invited to get exercised about, not the messenger. TV3 hasn’t revealed their snoopers’ identities. They must protect their sources, they’ll tell you. Do you sniff a rat in all this? Are the journalists who chased the authors of the 2005 pamphlets the same people who are now covering the tracks of the eavesdroppers in 2008? Is the intended beneficiary of this double standard the Labour Party? You’d better believe it. Duncan Garner is acting like he’s on Labour’s payroll.
First a preliminary about this new style of campaigning that is taking place. A small group of weirdos with a Berlin Wall mentality are associated with a website “Scoop”. For some time now they’ve invited themselves to functions where they bug people and take photos without permission. A book of mine was launched in Wellington on the evening of 9 June. Someone who later identified himself as Kevin List insinuated himself into the room, took photos of those present, and put them on “Scoop”. Accompanying them was a left-wing diatribe from that ex Listener hack, Gordon Campbell. List went further. He recorded an inarticulate rave about the launch. “Scoop”, it transpires, is also involved with Duncan Garner’s story. Snooping Scoopers have become TV3’s new news gatherers.
Leaving aside the morality of what TV3 has been up to, did they invest profitably? Let’s examine the so-called “revelations” that Dear Duncan has provided for us. We now have the full text of what Bill English was recorded as saying. He is alleged to have “dissed” his leader, and is purported to have indicated that he intended selling Kiwibank. The text of English’s comments doesn’t support the first accusation, and while he suggested that National might “eventually” sell Kiwibank, he was in no hurry, and thought it was “working”. Where’s the beef? What is Dear Duncan trying to tell us? If Kiwibank were to fall over – which seems unlikely – would he want the government to hang it around the taxpayers’ necks permanently like a dead albatross?
With Dear Duncan’s second so-called “revelation” about Lockwood Smith that he told us in sepulchral tones was “damaging” to National, and in case we hadn’t heard him the first time, repeated it twice more, the accusations were even more feeble. All that could be gathered from Lockwood Smith’s comments to a friend is that there are only some aspects of National policy that will be highlighted during the campaign, and some that won’t be. Well, well, well. Since when has that been a revelation? Labour didn’t tell us before 2002 and 2005 that they intended to back an anti-smacking bill, and that they were intent on destroying the value of the shares held by mums and pops by breaking Telecom into three, and by preventing a Canadian bid for Auckland Airport. Lots of things aren’t mentioned in campaigns. The notion that a government can do only what it has promised on the hustings, and nothing more, reveals a level of naivety that is inconsistent with a serious reporter.
TV3 appears to have transgressed big time. According to the Herald the Broadcasting Standards Authority has banned the broadcasting of private conversations. Duncan Garner, it seems, didn’t know that. He relied on scurrilous methods that serious journalists despise. Gate-crashing private functions while snooping about with a recorder taping private conversations without first asking permission, is disgraceful conduct in anyone’s book. I hope someone has the guts to complain to the Broadcasting Standards Authority. But for TV3 to come away from this immoral activity with nothing worthy of recounting makes them look foolish. Why were these non-stories the lead items on TV3 News? Were they paid for? Does the producer have no shame?
And what, I wonder, does our Ninth Floor Nanny in the Beehive know about the activities of the Snooper Scoopers who are clearly working for Labour? If this carries on then TV3 will have to list itself with the Electoral Commission as a Labour supporter for the purposes of the Electoral Finance Act. “
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
Hmm – I saw 91 responses and thought “philu is bored”. The media should investigate the ‘National’ delegate and see what links he/she has to Labour. English can muse about his personal thoughts on Kiwibank all he wants – they weren’t and aren’t National’s policy as confirmed by Key. So we have a senior MP expressing private thoughts that differ from party policy. In my days in Labour in the late 80′s I heard such musings from Cabinet ministers reasonably frequently. Ron Mark has privately expressed disquiet with Winston’s Asian demagoging. English thinks Kiwibank should be sold – fits in the same category as my examples except no desperate National party operative was on hand to tape such talk.
The takeaway – Labour is so desperate for traction against Key that their entire 08 campaign will be fearmongering on the back of these innocuous chats.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
Paul
You seem to be bitter and twisted about things that happened 19 years ago, take a bit of advice and let it go.
If you are so concerned about politicians that lie I can only assume that you are not going to vote for Labour at the coming election.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
“Estimable”; yeah right.
Five paras criticising Garner and a final asking if TV3 is working for Labour? Bassett’s a hack clothed in respectable garb (albeit old and out of date) but still spouting embittered crap.
No Michael, they didn’t because (a) the anti-smacking bill, as you call it, wasn’t introduced and if Labour didn’t declare it would back it, it was because it didn’t exist (and let’s not forget National backed it too) (b) LLUB is what caused this the separation, not some change of policy Michael – and Parliament voted 119-2 to support it (incidentally did National campaign on splitting up ECNZ, I don’t recall but don’t think so) and finally (c) the policy on foreign ownership hasn’t changed either – three instances of misdirection in one para! But the final sentence speaks the most about Bassett, he’s not learned the lessons of the past either because despite his protestations, he’d happily blitzkrieg the public again only no one would have him…
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
You really need to do better than this BB; my point is simply that Lockwood’s got form… it’s always a bugger when the person you argue with knows more than you, but I’d've thought you were used ot it by now surely?
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
Paul
You seem to have me confused with somebody who gives a fuck about the majority of students, as I said before if Lockwood lied to them then he deserves a bloody knighthood.
If you want to talk about form then perhaps you can tell me why you find it acceptable for Clark to repeatedly lie for the last nine years?
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
BB said:
Are you quoting Lockwood, Bill or someone else there? It is precisely this attitude that I think is revealed by the taped conversations BB; a scant disregard for people or the truth. You’re not doing you side any favours with this approach BB.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 2:30 pm
Paul
Again you are confused, either that or you are just plain fucking stupid and if that is the case then I guess you wasted all those years at University.
The Nat’s are NOT my “side”, as far as I am concerned they are gutless and have sold the party down the river, however as bad as the Nat’s might be they are a damn sight better option than the lying cheating and corrupt Labour party.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
BB, I’m not misunderstanding you at all, I’m just pointing out how your commentary reinforces the idea that National are deceitful. I simply don’t believe that Clark told, instructed, suggested, authorised or deliberately ignored secretive taping of Bill or Lockwood – if I’m wrong, then I assure you, she’ll not have my vote. Moreover, the last few months of leaks and slips suggests that National are being deliberately vague on policy and not just ’cause the leaders a noob.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Paul seems to forget that Helen Clark is on record as saying that there was no intention to pass a bill banning smacking. She said so in a radio interview and subsequently supported the greens in this initiative, even going so far as to make this an party vote.
And before you go stating the obvious, that National supported the bill as well, that was only after an amendment was put in place allowing police not to prosecute in certain situations. This was a concession to a bill that would have otherwise passed in a much more draconian form.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
Evidently Paul is not the only bitter one.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Labour’s position on a members’ bill changed, sure, but the bill didn’t exist prior so Labour’s compromise hardly equates to the complete turn around on student fees and superannuation we’ve been talking about – moreover, I don’t think Labour had a position on smacking prior to the bill (not even in a one page dot point list), so again this is a completely false comparison… and yes, National supported the bill, it might be obvious, it’s also relevant and important. And so your point is what?
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
Heard on the news that National had kicked out a couple of Labourites from the conference, and that they are reviewing their security footage, and are looking at forwarding this on to the police
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
Would evidence of her having committed a crime be enough to deny her the benefit of your vote?
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
stayathomemum, If this does go back to Helen you can bet there will be several plausible deniability firewalls between the chump with the hidden microphone and the 9th floor. She’s much too clever to be caught like that.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
Getstaffed; simply, yes. A crime requires mens rea and actus reus. I can’t conceive of a situation where Helen could be charged with a crime in this situation; it’s just too far fetched. If over-zealous supporters have falsely entered the National conference and caught their spokesmen telling the truth to the faithful, that’s not the doing of the PM.
Would evidence that National are deliberately misleading the public over their intentions be enough to deny them the benefit of your vote?
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
getstaffed said:
Of course it could be because she had nothing to do with it but don’t let that spoil the fantasy.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
# pushmepullu (330) Add karma Subtract karma –5 Says:
August 6th, 2008 at 8:42 am
The secret recordings, on both sides
OK chfr if you are going to make slurs like that you need to back it up with some cold hard evidence or you will become a laughing stock pretty quick mate.
So where do you get this ‘both sides’ bollocks from? Can you show me any proof that National has ever indulged in such disgusting gutter tactics?
Pushmepullu, I was casting no aspersions on the National Party over the Mike Williams incident. They did not need to stoop so low then and don’t now.
The point I was trying to make, badly I’ll admit, was that this represents a new low in NZ politics. As I recall Hellen was very shrill in her condemnation of the incident. The hiprocracy now being spouted by her of Nat sectre agendas makes me sick.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
“getstaffed”, you’ll notice in that wonderful country called Russia, they have a populist leader, and even the monotonously regular occurence of the murder of his political opponents, none of which he can be convicted of a link with, seems to cost him votes. I think we see a similar phenomenon with Labour voters/supporters in NZ. You have to be on the outside looking in, to be able to see some things………
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 4:47 pm
Whilst there is no direct evidence of Clark’s involvement as of yet, she does certainly display the political characteristics and possess the qualifications to have stooped to this level.
1. On the record (not denied), as saying she would be as vicious and nasty as required to obtain power.
2. Proven liar. Paintergate, Speedgate, Doonegate, etc etc.
3. Is prepared to break the law to obtain power. The pledge card theft of public funds
4. Has a moral compass which is set to re elect over consistency and justice. Support for Peters, EFA.
5. Is the ultimate in political prostitutes. During her political career she has supported everything from socialism to neo liberal economics, privatisation to nationalisation, south american dictators to George Bush. She has railed against Peters only to support his populism. She has marched for Maori Land rights, only to label them “wreckers and haters”. She forgets she spoke on increasing Government Debt in 94, now she changes tune.
Is she capable of providing tacit approval for a few of her “little pretties”, to “fly” and infiltrate and illegally tape private conversations so her political “legacy” (oh so precious to her ) can be secured………..youbetcha!
You are “over the rainbow” IMHO if you don’t.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
phil said:
You’re on the outside alright phil, outside of reality I fear. What an absurd comparison.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
“Labour are desperate to work up the fear of broken promises and secret agendas, because once National is in office – and does keep its promises, they will never have that weapon again. ”
Well, I am sure they will keep there promise to push interest rates up…….ahem I meant borrow for *infrastructure* cough cough.
Rising mortgage payments is one promise we can definitely rely on English and Key to deliver on.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 6:38 pm
Your posts are increasingly becoming a total waste of everyones time, npog
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
Paul
As you are well aware it would not matter one bit what crime dear corrupt maggot leader was charged with the outcome of the inquiry would be….(althogher now)….”while there is a prima facie case”
She knows (as do you) that the NZ police are corrupt, Fat Howard Broad is a political appointment and NOTHING will ever be done about her lies and crimes as long as he is commissioner.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 6:42 pm
I thought it might be interesting to look back at what Mr Farrar (and the rest of his chums) had to say about the recording leaked to TV news re Mike Williams of the Labour party.
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2008/04/mike_williams_caught_lying_-_again.html
Not much outrage there about “illegal taping” or “people posing as delegates”
Poor Nats, and it was all going so well.
[DPF: That is because there was no one posing as a delegate you moron. Also there is a difference between what the Party President says in a forum to 400 people, and someone trying to do a sting operation by illegally impersonating a party member and trespassing at a cocktail party and asking loaded questions to MPs. But I knew Sonic would approve, as it confirms his ethical base]
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 6:44 pm
Do you have a mortgage Kimble?
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 6:52 pm
Wow..we really are blessed with a full turn out of trolls tonight.
I bet that if you put all of them together they still could not come up with an original thought.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 7:02 pm
Oh dear poor Bruv, he parrots the word “troll” while complaining that people have no “original thoughts”
Or perhaps he thinks he invented the term.
So I was wondering, what is the crime concerned here, revealing the truth about the National Party?
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
Sonic
Do you really want me to list all of the crimes dear corrupt leader has committed over the last nine years?
It would be rather embarrassing for you and the Labour party.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
What an original thought BB!
Oh hold on, it was just your usual off topic paranoid ranting.
I was speaking specfically about the taping of the National party’s leading figures getting caught telling the truth, do try and keep up.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
Sonic
You might have been talking about the taping (and who really knows with you anyway, as soon as somebody hits a raw nerve you attempt to change the subject) but as you asked me a specific question about the crimes of the PM and I answered it.
Do try and stay on track you idiot.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
“Do try and stay on track you idiot.”
Bruv- Laughable isn’t it, when these communist clowns, devotees of a religion that is underpinned by the most disgusting deceit, start using words like truth.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:01 pm
“you attempt to change the subject”
You mean change it to the actual topic of the thread?
Have you doubled your dose of stupid pills while I’ve been off attending cocktail parties with my trusty tape recorder?
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
Red
Its not laughable really, its getting bloody tedious.
Mind you things must be bad inside the Labour camp (no pun intended) given the high number of trolls out and about at the moment, I suspect they have done more polling (that we paid for) and have had the news that they are deeper in the shit than they thought.
The message has gone out from the ninth floor and the lick spittles like Ghost, Sonic and co have obeyed dear corrupt leader.
I am really going to enjoy blogging the day after the election, whats the bet that not one of the gutless wankers is anywhere near Kiwiblog.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:12 pm
I see that Bruv is having one of his paranoid “everyone who disgrees with me must be in the pay of the secret conspiracy” attacks again.
You and ratbleater do make a lovely couple, although not one anyone would ever invite to a party methinks.
Oh and p.s little brother, you say how much you will enjoy “blogging” after the election. You don’t “blog” little brother, you comment. A blogger has a website where they post their opinions, you haunt the comments site of other blogs (24 hours a day it seems) crying “troll” “conspiracy” “9th floor”
See the difference, one makes you a blogger the other, well it makes you.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:18 pm
“I am really going to enjoy blogging the day after the election”
Sounds like someone should try to get out a little more!
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:20 pm
He has his vital “blogging” to do Capills.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:26 pm
Sonic
How wrong you are, I have a blog all ready to go which I will launch the day after the election, I think I might call it “we won, you lost, eat that”
It is going to feature a job search section where all the tired old (and sacked) Labour MP’s can lodge their CV’s as there will be a shit load of them looking for work.
And Capills..I figure that I will have one mighty hangover the day after the election such will be the celebrations at the demise of dear corrupt sexually confused leader so the option of going out might not be at the top of my list.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:28 pm
“I have a blog all ready to go which I will launch after the day after the election”
Another fib, don’t you ever get bored with making a fool of yourself my little “blogger” friend?
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:36 pm
Sonic
Do you always get this flustered when you lose another argument?
Anyway, time for me to go I will leave you to the rest of your “shift”, just out of interest what time did dear corrupt leader tell you that you could log off?
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:55 pm
“Flustered”?
I’m not the one running off little blogger. Anyway now the kiddies have gone to bed the grown ups can talk.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 8:59 pm
“dear corrupt sexually confused leader”
Not sure about the ‘confused’ bit, bruv… but you’re certainly more interested in her sexuality than she is in your’s, don’t you think?
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 9:16 pm
Labour are in a rather desperate position at this point in time. Too bad the economy is in deep recession. The voters of New Zealand are ready and primed to apply the big boot to Hels and Cullen. People are feeling the economic pain right now and the government is completely indifferent to them. On the 8th November 2008 this current corrupt Labour government will be made to feel the pain as well.
Time for a change.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 10:06 pm
Hey this could have been a LOT worse if the same thing had been done in the middle of the campaign.
Instead, the stupid lefties blew it, big-time. This is a one-shot deal, once bitten, twice shy.
They should have held it in reserve for something more important than mere revenge at their own conference debacle.
So apparently we learn from this that lefties are good at hysterical lies, obfuscation and coming too early. I can’t wait for their next feeble attempt at whipping up the suffering public.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 10:35 pm
Just went to http://labour.org.nz/policy.html and I couldn’t find anything with a date later than 2005.
So Labour doesn’t appear to have released any election policy at all.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 10:35 pm
“Hey this could have been a LOT worse if the same thing had been done in the middle of the campaign.”
Yeah, those cunning Nats eh? Stuffing up so early in the campaign. The fuckers must be learning…
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 10:48 pm
Awfully interesting to hear Helen say in one of her replies to the first question in Question Time today- “be afraid, be very afraid because they say one thing in private and do another in public”
One would have thought that was a rather dangerous thing for ‘her’ to say especially for one who Mike Moore said had a “consort”.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 10:52 pm
Shit that is interesting isn’t it…? It always pays to listen to what old Mike ’53 Days’ Moore says…
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 10:56 pm
this is all self-inflicted. If John Key had stood up for Bill, there would no story . . .pathetic to be whining about unfair play . . .eventually could have meant selling some shares to public in second term .. . Every leader has to put body on line for their team, but JK is about JK . .. . THis could have been a LOT less if JK had been a man about it
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 11:02 pm
Hey capills, since when is being the victim of an ambush, stuffing up?
Reaction to it hasn’t been too bad on my reading. Even if there’s more recordings released, I predict the polls won’t shift one iota. But we learned to avoid another clever trap laid by the sinister lefties (that’s the original meaning of lefty isn’t it).
Guess what? We won, you lost, eat that.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 11:03 pm
sonic said: I see that Bruv is having one of his paranoid “everyone who disgrees with me must be in the pay of the secret conspiracy” attacks again.
Yeah, sonic, he’s having a bad day. His alter ego “big bro” accused me of being a Labour Party member in repsonse to my post The Hidden Agenda of the Hollow Men over at g.blog this afternoon.
For the record, I am not, never have been, and never will be a member of the Labour Party, have never been in their employ, and the last time I voted for them was 1984.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 11:09 pm
Hey congratulations toad, I voted National in 1984, but given what Liarbore did, I wish I’d voted for the best finance minister NZ has ever seen, even if it did mean I’d have also voted for the lefty scum who introduced the worst foreign policy debacle NZ has ever seen.
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 11:11 pm
who really cares about these recordings other than the hard core labour supporters, its not like they have revealed anything new.
Vote:“OOoooo some one from national was talking about selling Kiwi bank”…….. big flippin deal. OF COARSE someone from National is talking about selling kiwibank, it dosen’t mean shite.
August 6th, 2008 at 11:11 pm
“Guess what? We won, you lost, eat that.”
Good level you’ve found there, reid. Loving your work.
Anyway, if it happens, it will be a bit of a Pyrrhic victory for you tories, seeing as poor old Jonkey’s had to flip-flop on so many policies & statements, just to make himself vaguely electable…
Stewed apples for dessert then?
Vote:August 6th, 2008 at 11:29 pm
Yeah capills I have commented many times on the shortcomings I perceive in Key.
It’s not hard to improve on this govt however.
It’s not particularly their incompetence, it’s their straight-out lies and business-as-usual disingenuous dishonesty whilst they pretend to have integrity, that really gets to me.
Of course their voters don’t share those traits, but I really wonder why the diminishing number of those haven’t already seen the obvious since it’s been clearly evident to those with eyes and ears since 1999.
Vote:August 7th, 2008 at 12:40 am
The main prize of a National victory is Hels and Cullen out on their ass, permanently, never to bother New Zealand politics again. That’s worth getting out and voting by itself.
It appears obvious at this stage that not a lot is going to be done by National in their first term in office unless ACT is there forcing their hand. I imagine the real action will kick in for there second term. To bad Labour will be a shadow of its former self and won’t be able to put up much opposition to National’s plans.
Vote:August 7th, 2008 at 7:35 am
laugh-line of the day..
..http://whoar.co.nz/2008/in-hindsight-dr-smith-realised-the-man-could-not-have-been-a-young-nat-he-was-too-hip/
poor young nattys..!..eh..?
condemned/indicted by one of their own..
..as being irredeemably ‘un-hip’..
..eh..?
(i have long thought the explanation for that deep-seated hatred of the rest of us by/from righties..
..stems from that awareness..that they will never be ‘cool’..
..and suffer deep jelousy/begrudgment..
..at their lot..
..and have an irrational hatred of the ‘cool’..
(who are invariably..lefties..
..eh..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz.)
Vote:August 7th, 2008 at 8:00 am
milo – you’ll probably find Labour’s election policy over on the Standard website!
Vote: