Armstrong on Privileges hearing

September 10th, 2008 at 9:30 am by David Farrar

John Armstrong gives an excellent commentary on the hearing:

Winston Peters is teetering on the brink. His three long decades in politics are just one short meeting of Parliament’s privileges committee away from ending in abject disgrace and utter humiliation.

Peters will never admit he has done anything wrong though. He was defiant in the House yesterday.

Glenn has stuck to his story throughout. He has now backed it up with copies of relevant emails and phone logs. He has been up front. He has volunteered information. To put no finer point on it, his account rings true.

In contrast, Mr Peters has offered denials which have been found wanting. Accepting his story has required suspending disbelief. His story has kept changing.

Yet Helen has persisted in her innocent explanation belief.

That Glenn’s version of what happened is convincing could be ascertained by the rather desultory efforts by Labour MPs on the committee to help Peters by trying to pick holes in it.

That reached a low when Russell Fairbrother, a vastly experienced barrister prior to becoming an MP, suggested to Glenn that he could have been talking to Wayne Peters, the NZ First leader’s brother, when he rang Peters’ cellphone.

It was a moment of farce during testimony which has pushed Peters deeper into political strife – if that is possible.

I think I would have actually laughed out loud if it were not for the fact that the Privileges Committee can send people to jail!

If he cannot provide believable explanations to counter what seems to be irrefutable evidence that he in fact solicited the donation from Glenn, then he should resign his current status as a minister without portfolio and his party should think seriously about whether he is fit to stand for Parliament again.

It won’t. There is no NZ First without Peters.

To some degree that is a pity. There is room on the political spectrum for a centrist socially conservative party. NZ First without Peters is a party once could actually work with constructively. If they sacked Peters. But as Armstrong says, that is almost impossible to concieve.

Tags: John Armstrong, Owen Glenn, Privileges Committee, Russell Fairbrother, Winston First

This entry was posted on Wednesday, September 10th, 2008 at 9:30 am and is filed under NZ Politics. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can skip to the end and leave a response. Pinging is currently not allowed.

47 Responses to “Armstrong on Privileges hearing”

Gooner (995) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 9:35 am
NZ1st *is* Peters.

How can you sack yourself?
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getstaffed (9,188) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 9:36 am
Prediction: Clark will delay her decision, and quietly promise Winston she won’t sack him at all if he supports her beloved ETS.

Once passed, if Winston has dirt on Helen she’ll not sack him but get to the polls super fast to allow the voters do the job for her.

However if Winston doesn’t have dirt on Helen then she’ll simply sack him outright (despite having privately promised not to do so). She’ll be looking for some blip in what must be an almost flatlining Labour political pulse.
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Michaels (1,305) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 9:39 am
If the Labour members on the committee won’t/don’t agree with the others in their final decision, I assume there could be no verdict, a re-think must then happen surrounding the privileges committee. Could it become independent but still hold the powers?
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philu (13,393) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 9:48 am
glenn was just asked on national radio..what conclusions he took away from this whole brouhaha..

he said it all makes a strong case for state funding of political parties/elections..

..he spoke of the degradations involved in poiticians having to go begging to rich business-people..

..for the money they need to function..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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2boyz (190) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 9:49 am
Labour and NZ First have really shafted OG (it’s not a good look when you help someone out and then they proceed to shit all over you). Winston needs to be gone and Helen & Cullen shortly there after if there’s any justice in this world, but hay this is NZ and there’s probably a small corner of carpet left that this can all get swept under.
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aardvark (417) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 9:53 am
As I said in Aardvark today, time for asbestos undies all round me thinks!
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slightlyrighty (2,258) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 9:59 am
Winston and Labour’s conduct at question-time calling the whole privileges committee into disrepute by calling it biased and a kangaroo court is a time honoured tactic by those with despotic tendencies.

Milosevic, Karadic, Hussein, Goering, all had in common a non acceptance of the authority of the court tasked with dealing with their crimes. Now I understand that comparing Lying to Parliament is a far cry from Genocide, but I make the point that when one is trying to defend the indefensible, there are few options that one can take. If one cannot refute the evidence, one can only attack the authority that passes judgement based on that evidence.

Peters should do well to observe that this tactic seldom works. What is in his favour is that the committee deciding his fate has in Dial Jones, and 4 Labour members who now have a vested interest in a positive outcome for him.

Yes there are 4 Nats and one ACT member on the committee. So the outcome may well rest on the opinions and determinations of the United Future, Green and maori party members. I do not see United Future or the Greens having any bias towards a result, and the Maori Party have generally been honorable in the parliamentary business, so they can only decide based on the evidence, (as I suspect the Nats and Act will do anyway)

The winds are changing in Parliament and I sense an attitude form Clark towards Peters that may result in Labour voting with the evidence although I’ll believe that when I see it and not before!
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Brian Smaller (3,835) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 10:00 am
Philu – state funding of political parties. NO WAY. Enough of my money goes to supporting bludgers and hangers on to the state tit. I have never given a cent to any political party and want it to stay that way. I suggest that every tax payer get a “donation” voucher (or tax credit). They can donate it to a politcal party, a charity or keep it for themselves.
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Blue Devil (7) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 10:01 am
The Privileges committee should demand Helen Clark be a witness so that the questions she expediently avoids during question time may be put. Also Labour party president Mike Williams should be hauled in to explain just how much he and the parliamentary heirarchy knew and when. While we’re at it… that idiot Russell Fairbrother should be given a psychiatric assessment for his ridiculous suggestion of “mistaken identity” and struck off the legal profession for gross incompetence. After all these revelations its pretty clear that Winston is dog tucker and his miserable party is waiting in the wings to be a footnote in political history. Sadly it probably won’t be the last of Winston, there’s a Game Show out there waiting for a presenter…
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insider (958) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 10:03 am
On the other hand Phil, would you want even more of our tax money to go to prop up people who would behave in such a manner? Not sure if giving more money sends the right signal.

One thing in this affair I think Key has done wrong is writing off NZ FIrst for any agreement after the election. Rather than saying he wouldn’t work with NZ First, he should have just said he wouldn’t work with Winston, and that NZ First had other people in it he would work with. That way he could have kept more options post election.
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insider (958) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 10:12 am
Has anyone tried ringing Winston’s number to see if Wayne answers?
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philu (13,393) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 10:13 am
nz first with ron marks as leader..ew…!

anyway..even if clark fires him..

..i’m still picking he’ll be still standing post-election..

..the only thing that could alter that..would be the serious fraud squad laying serious charges..

..barring that..key will live to regret his ‘no way with winston!’ ‘blurt..

..phil(whoar.co.nz)
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slightlyrighty (2,258) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 10:20 am
Philu

What colour is the sky on your planet?

After the way that Winston has now dragged Labour into the quagmire, Do you still think that Key might regret his “No way with Winston” or are labour just starting to discover the cost of dealing with this lying charlatan?
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Craig Ranapia (1,912) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 10:20 am
To some degree that is a pity. There is room on the political spectrum for a centrist socially conservative party.

While I wouldn’t vote for it, I think you’re right DPF. But let’s get real — New Zealand First has never been any such thing. It’s, ultimately, up to the voters whether enough of them think there’s room for a personality cult that is, essentially, economically and socially reactionary, and (incoherently) panders to xenophobic nostalgia for a world that never really existed. But let’s at least have the clarity to call Winston First what it really is.
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Deep Throat (28) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 10:24 am
Have just listened to the Owen Glenn press conference – The Prime Minister and the President of the Labour Party should hang their heads in shame and an incoming government should give Glenn the honorary consulship in Monaco both as an apology for his shabby treatment by the NZ parliament and because based on his comments and behaviour over the last couple of months he’d do a damn good job.
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goodgod (1,363) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 10:26 am
“One thing in this affair I think Key has done wrong is writing off NZ FIrst for any agreement after the election. Rather than saying he wouldn’t work with NZ First, he should have just said he wouldn’t work with Winston, and that NZ First had other people in it he would work with. That way he could have kept more options post election.”

Not after NZ First officials played pass the parcel of blame/incompetence over this affair. They’re all smaller images of The Great One. Not very surprising.
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TMC (59) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 10:30 am
I watched the Campbell interview last night and he brought up the odd partnership of Clark and Peters. They come from opposite ends of the politcal spectrum. That much is obvious. But what I don’t understand is why aren’t more (any?) Labour supporters upset about her standing by Peters at the detriment of the Labour party? Maybe I’m being too idealist to believe people should stick to party principles and not sell out. Seriously, were any Labour supporters upset when the initial deal was made to have Peters in government?

It’s the same in the USA too. Bush has gone to the polar opposite of basic Republican principles. The only one close to it any more is Ron Paul. Similarly, are there any true Labour party members out there? And why aren’t they up in arms about this too? Or is just about your team winning at all costs – fuk the country?
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PhilBest (5,087) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 10:34 am
Winston Peters is a soulmate of some of those blustering, intransigent dictators in banana republics – just imagine him WITH “absolute power”……….

In fact, isn’t that a good test of a poltician’s personality? Are any of them saintly enough that absolute power would be safe in their hands? I suggest that the founders of the USA had it right in terms of the need for limitations on power, and checks and balances.
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3-coil (1,149) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 10:36 am
philu (10:13am) – are you still seriously picking a Labour/Green/NZ1st/EPMU/Maori/Prog/UF coalition government after this debacle?

You are truly are in la la land.
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philu (13,393) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 10:38 am
“..After the way that Winston has now dragged Labour into the quagmire..”

that supposition is incorrect..

..in part due to the unusual nature of their political relationship..clark has been able to distance herself from any peters ‘undoing’..

..and in fact..she has handled it the only way possible..and ‘honourable’..

and those who claaim clark should have fired him months ago..

are talking absolute rubbish..

..and apart from anything else..

..would have denied peters any semblance of natural justice..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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philu (13,393) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 10:41 am
“..# 3-coil (400) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 10:36 am

philu (10:13am) – are you still seriously picking a Labour/Green/NZ1st/EPMU/Maori/Prog/UF coalition government after this debacle?

You are truly are in la la land..”

yes..why not..?

(minus epmu..and united whatever..)

do tell..!

(rather than just an ad hominem..try engaging your brain..

..and presenting your case/rebuttal..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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philu (13,393) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 10:43 am
heh..!..owen glenn has just said mike williams asked him for a job..this week..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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getstaffed (9,188) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 10:53 am
owen glenn has just said mike williams asked him for a job..this week..

That’s hilarious! Glenn is delicately twisting the knife. Good times.
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glubbster (345) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 11:08 am
PhilU, you biased muppet check out this article: http://www.stuff.co.nz/4687159a6160.html – he also thinks Labour are despicable…its not just a near majority of the country: “She is very self-serving,” (really!) “Mr Williams is wrestling with the truth,” (again!).

All your predictions Phil border on the farcical. Peters is goneburger. I picked this months ago when he came out with “NO”. UF cant wait to join National.
The MP cant wait to be 1ST cab off the rank for National. That leaves a decimated Labour camp, some Greenies and Jim…um…Phil try OPPOSITION.

Re state funding: Glenn’s reaction is understandable given the way this government was acted and treated him. It does not at all strengthen the case for state funding. It strengthens the case for less dirty politics (NZF & Labour) and stricter penalties for non-disclosure of donations.

But keep spinning, its an enjoyable read
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glubbster (345) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 11:15 am
Re natural justice Phil, it took Clark far less time to clean out other Ministers ie Dalziel, Benson-Pope, Taito…the list goes on.
Secondly, there is a big difference between being unlawful and being conduct unbecoming of a Minister.
Thirdly, Clark knew Peters was lying because Glenn told her & Mike Williams about the donation. To stay silent shows a lack of decisive leadership and also shows that Clark will do anything to cling on to power, including fudging, delaying, deflecting and not telling the whole truth.
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philu (13,393) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 11:19 am
glubbster..

even if peters resigns/is fired..

..he goes straight back to the electorate for another mandate..

which he will get..

once again glubbster…’peters is goneburger’/'farcical’..

(that’s the extent of your rebuttal/analysis..?

yes..goneburger for now..

as i said..

all that will/would stop that..

..would be the s.f.o.laying charges..

tell me how this is not so..?

y’know..the average punter isn’t that stupid..

they can smell the rank hypocrisy of the likes of hide..(and former national bag-man..key..)

..up to their armpits in secret trusts/donations)..

..coming over all pious at peters..

eh..?

phil(whoar
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Ross Miller (1,543) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 11:31 am
philu said “heh….Owen Glenn has just said Mike Williams asked him for a job this week.”

Phil’s slightly wrong …. In fact OG said Williams had made the request several times in recent months.

Put these words in order …. ship, rats, a, leaving, sinking …….

problem for Williams is that Glenn has pushed him out of the liferaft.

Best line from yesterday was the answer Glen gave to Williams when asked for more money last month … “What time does your plane leave Mike”.

BTW phil … where is your rightuous indignation to the revelation that Williams was in Europe soliciting money from Labour’s socialist friends. Are we entitled to ask what is the payoff for them? Ooooops sorry, its Labour doing it so it must be ok.
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radar (318) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 11:36 am
“There is room on the political spectrum for a centrist socially conservative party.”

Um, there is already? It’s called the National Party.

It would be wonderful if this scandal was truely the end of the cancer known as Winston Peters and New Zealand First, and doubly wonderful if he managed to drag down those lying weasels, Helen Clark and Mike Williams. These people are a cancerous and corrosive element in New Zealand politics.
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pseudonymous (68) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 11:37 am
Hmm! Winstone as a game show host, what would it be?
Who Wants to be a Millionaire: Deal or no Deal; Wheel of Fortune; Eggheads:
Or how about a board game with his pic on the cover : snakes and ladders; truth or dare; monopoly;scrabble.
Then again he could always become an opposition politician; he has proved time and time again that as a member of any government he is an abject failure
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glubbster (345) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 11:39 am
Why then did Clark not change the donations laws in 1999? Because she too is up to her eyelids in anonymous donations..
The fact is that all donations to National & Labour (unless proven otherwise) were legally compliant including disclosure. Peters campaigned on this topic and hypocritically is the worst offender. He also failed to disclose – which is illegal.

Peters is goneburger because he wont get anywhere near 5% and will be thrashed in Tauranga. These predictions are predictions not fact and I cannot claim to see forward in time but I would say your prediction is highly unlikely. Go to Ipredict if you disagree and earn yourself some cash. Phil, if you offered fair & reasonable analysis for once (its always thoroughly biased), I would be happy to take your farcical ideas more seriously.
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rightofleftcentre (73) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 11:53 am
Philu said – “even if peters resigns/is fired..

..he goes straight back to the electorate for another mandate..

which he will get..”

And therein lies the nonsense that is MMP (if you’re right)
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slightlyrighty (2,258) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 11:58 am
Philu. In what way is my supposition of Labour being dragged into the quagmire by Glenn incorrect?

Glenn has said that the donation was made with the full knowledge of the Labour president. Now although Williams denies this, his relationship with Glenn is such that this denial is difficult to give credence to, coming as it does after the issue of the $100,000 interest free loan from Glenn to Labour, which Williams initially denied knowing about, before coming clean to Clark.

The timing of all of this is particularly relevant, given that this was coming to a head in February of this year, at the time when Glenn was in NZ to open the Owen Glenn Business School. Clark was, at this time, informed by Glenn of the donation to NZ First, and of Williams participation in the process. Given that one political party arranging funding for a different party to engage a third political party in legal action is not a good look, I can understand a certain level of reticence on the part of Williams to front up but when things came to a head, and given the fact that one must know something of the truth to lie convincingly, I find it difficult to believe that Williams did not confirm Glenn’s version of events to the PM, especially given the fact that she would have been briefed at the same time about the interest free loan by non other than Williams himself!

Also the other connection to Labour is that the witness to Winston thanking Owen Glenn at Karaka, is Owen Glenn’s horse trainer. This person is also the brother of the Labour Whip. Given that connection, Would you have us believe that between Sue Moroney, Mike Williams, and Owen Glenn himself, Helen Clark was NOT aware of the truth surrounding the donation to Winston Peters? Deosn’t that put her conduct in parliament under the microscope?

That is how Labour have been dragged into this quagmire.
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Rex Widerstrom (4,971) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
There’s still nowhere offering better in-depth coverage and comment on this issue than Kiwiblog, yet 38% of people who come here have indicated in the poll they want to see NZF back in Parliament – the highest of any small party. Over at the Stuff website, when I last looked, just over 16% of their readers were saying despite all this evidence that they believe Winston Peters over Owen Glenn (not to mention dozens of others, myself included, who’ve contradicted Peters’ version of events).

If he’s sacked, he gets what he got just prior to previous elections, when Shipley and Bolger did the same – enough fodder to fuel his “dark political forces and the filthy rich are conspiring against me” line right through the campaign and out the other side.

I simply can’t believe that, whereever you look, more than twice the numbers he needs are still backing the man. The only glimmer of hope that these people won’t re-infest NZ politicals with their venality and lies is that Key has ruled out dealing with them and Labour must surely be next to do so.

But if the current polls are any indication they’ll be back again next year, wasting time and wasting our resources, as they line their pockets and lap up the attention.

Sorry to rain on the parade, but for anyone concerned at the state of NZ’s politics generally more than they are partisan victories, the aperitif of the day would seem to be hemlock, not champagne.
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boomtownprat (281) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 12:12 pm
Rex, I think many people misread the poll question, hence the strange results
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djp (65) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 12:26 pm
it may have been rigged, it started at about 5% then jumped to 20%.. now its at 15%
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glubbster (345) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 12:26 pm
38% said they most wanted NZF out of Parliament. Big result when you consider the Greens are on that list.
Dont be so worried Rex, take a chill pill and be patient as you will be celebrating come 8/11 or 15/11.
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slightlyrighty (2,258) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 12:32 pm
Rex, I think I can put your mind a little at rest, the poll on this site is for the minor party you would LEAST like to see back in parliament.
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John Ansell (857) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
“There is room on the political spectrum for a centrist socially conservative party.”

Radar: ‘Um, there is already? It’s called the National Party.’

Quite so Radar. And another called United Future.

That’s a rather elementary mistake for John Armstrong to make, unless he truly believes United Future is centre-left or centre-right and National is centre-right instead of Labour-Lite.

I can’t see that there is any room on any spectrum for NZ First. What purpose do they serve, except as a vehicle for Son of Rob to practice his lying and diversions.

The opportunity cost of having Winston in parliament for 30 years wasting everyone’s time and money must be mindboggling.

Similarly, the opportunity cost of having people like the National Party, the Labour Party and Bill Ralston finally realise that we need tax cuts 12 years after ACT first called for them, is a sad indictment on the deductive powers of NZers.

(I know, I know, the Labour Party don’t even realise that now, which makes it ironic that they’re the ones introducing them.)
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Turlough (18) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 1:11 pm
One question that has not been answered, perhaps because no one in the media has asked it, is why Peters is hiding behind a lawyer in his appearances at the Privileges Committee.

Owen Glenn at his appearance yesterday, was accompanied by a lawyer, but did 95% of the talking himself. But for a person in his position, with no experience of fronting up to what is perpetually hyped up as the “powerful Privileges Committee”, to have the assurance of a lawyer who might be more familiar with the requirements for such appearances, is not unreasonable.

But for Peters, who has been part of the Parliamentary environment for 30 years, and has insisted repeatedly that he can clear up all the allegations against him in five minutes, the need for him to have a lawyer with him, and then as in his previous appearance leave the lawyer do nearly all of the talking for him, raises serious questions.

Is it a case, as Peters repeatedly alleged in regard to the Winebox tax-dodge transactions, of hiding behind the appearances of legal forms and processes to avoid scrutiny of the substance?

Is this a parallel of the situation in Parliament, whenever Rodney Hide has sought to raise questions regarding NZ First’s secretive and undisclosed funding sources, where Peters has sought to shut down further enquiry by getting Labour’s Cullen and Wilson to rule that the matters were sub-judice…..partly through cases Peters has initiated himself?

The irony of this is that Peters himself in his crusading Winebox days, used to rail against the iniquity of this very tactic, powerful business and political interests seeking to impose gagging writs that would prevent his raising matters that warranted enquiry ….and always of course in the public interest.

So why the lawyer, Peters? Is it because you will do anything but simply deal in the truth…even if it will take only five minutes?

Why does the most experienced MP in Parliament need to hide behind another Williams, this one a QC, instead of just fronting a table of fellow MPs, who are all his juniors?

It is a good question. But an answer would be even better.
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glubbster (345) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
John, National have always campaigned and supported tax cuts, of all people you should know that!
Tax/Cut anyone?
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philu (13,393) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 1:16 pm
“..TW phil … where is your rightuous indignation to the revelation that Williams was in Europe soliciting money from Labour’s socialist friends..”

two words/names ross..

key + ashcroft..

eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Dr Robotnik (533) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Four words phil.

“You are a twat.”

You’re the blog equivalent of Beavis and Butthead but without the intellect or backbone.

Fuck off and get a job you pathetic excuse for a human being.
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Right of way is Way of Right (1,055) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Philu, Lord Ashcroft cannot, by law, donate to a NZ political party!

Owen Glenn can, as the EFA was set up to allow him to do precisely that. Not that he qould want to now anyway, and if he did, then certainly not to Labour!
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jackp (668) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
Helen Clark wanted to abolish the Serious Fraud Office and combine it with the Police. We all know the Police Commissioner is politcal and easier to manage than the SFO. The positive side with this whole escapade is the SFO is staying, Helen won’t dare abolish it. Helen Clark has to delay her plans to gain complete control over the government.
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philu (13,393) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
right of way..

your wide-eyed naievete is ‘touching’..

you have ashcroft..a serial funder of rightwing parties..(australia..etc..)

and the former/recent bagman for the national party..

..who was a money-trader..

..and they wouldn’t be able to work out a way for ashcroft to ‘help’ national..?

and we are led to believe..they never even discussed this..?

um..!..why do you think ashcroft flew in here for a secret meeting with key..?

..to discuss the bledisloe cup..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Rex Widerstrom (4,971) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
glubbster, slightlyrighty: Doh!! In my own defence it’s an overly complex question to absorb before your first cup of morning coffee :-/ Okay I’ll just reverse the reason for my pessimism (no glass is half full in my world LOL) and comment that there are therefore 62% of Kiwiblog readers who’d rather not see Act, the Maori Party or even the Greens in Parliament and would rather live with NZF. I still find that extraordinary. I’d rather see an honest party with whom I vehemently disagreed re-elected than one which is dishonest and stands for nothing.
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John Ansell (857) Says:
September 10th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
glubbster: certainly National supported tax cuts in 2005 under Don Brash. I thought that was the first year they campaigned on it, but they may have done so in 2002, who knows? They stood for anything and everything that year.

But my point is, they should have been slashing taxes when they were in power in the 90s – like Ireland did.

Bold policies saw Ireland rocket from 22rd to 4th in the OECD in about five years.

Thanks to the timid policies of National and Labour, we’ve spent the last decade sinking to where Ireland used to be.

(We can’t tell Irish jokes any more, cos we’re the joke.)
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Armstrong on Privileges hearing

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