The flag

September 2nd, 2008 at 8:32 am by David Farrar

All during the Olympics Games I kept getting reminded of how much I want to change the . It was near impossible to tell it apart from the Australian flag, as it went up a flagpole.

At least we are not the only ones who get confused. Sideswipe reports:

During a ceremony at Ku-ring-gai Council recently, his friends – an English family of five – had just received their Australian citizenship documentation and posed with the mayor for a photograph. “A helpful councillor came forward with a flag suggesting it would make a nice prop for the photograph,” he writes. The family agreed, but asked whether he had an Australian flag. “Oh my God,” said the councillor, “We’ve been using a New Zealand flag all night.”

One of us needs to change flags, as they are so similar. I bags us!

Tags:

65 Responses to “The flag”

  1. jackryan (34 comments) says:

    Why not just combine them? Make the stars red and add an extra point or two for the federation star!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  2. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    Because for the last 30 years patriotism has been put in the ‘too hard’ basket?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  3. big bruv (13,926 comments) says:

    Would all you republicans please piss off and leave our flag alone.

    Any attempt to change the flag or the head of state I would consider to be culturally insensitive.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  4. goodgod (1,348 comments) says:

    No no you’ve got it all wrong. It’s the Aussies that need to change their flag. And if they don’t…this saturday we’re going to war…with Australia. It’ll be over by 4pm and we can start the BBQ.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  5. GPT1 (2,122 comments) says:

    I like our flag the way it is. If you are that worried about it get the Aussies to change theirs. Or buy glasses.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  6. Murray (8,847 comments) says:

    You are talking utter crap David. The New Zealand ensign is unique as being the only flag on the planet that has a white bordered red star. It is one of the very few flags that you can indentify by seeing only a tiny part of it.

    Flags looking alike is the oft thrashed hobby horse of the neo-republican.

    If flags looking similar was a valid need for change explain The United State and Malasian flags.

    How about Poland, Indonesia and Singapore?

    The many many national flags that are simple tricoulrs that need to be standing out in a stiff breeze to be corectly indentified.

    The flag we have is actually one of the oldest serving national flags in the world today. If you want to play change for the sake of change then you’ll be changing your national flag like other people change their socks.

    In this country we are required to show a sycophantic “respect” for the contrived culture and history of one tiny minority but the bashing, craping on and dismantling the cultural history of the majority is virtually a natioanl passtime.

    If it “just a bit of cloth” why is so important to people like you that you should be able to set fire to it?

    If New Zealnders can’t recognise their own flag its might because they haven’t bothered to look at it. Personal problem, see the padre.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  7. dave strings (608 comments) says:

    There was a ‘movement’ to replace the flag with a stylized silver fern on a black background. What happened to that I wonder? There was some protest about it not including the Union Flag, but Canada hasn’t got one either and they haven’t been chucked out of the Commonwealth!

    It’s time for a BINDING referendum methinks. Couple that with an oath of allegiance, the National Anthem played before EVERY sporting fixture (school, club, whatever – even do it for a chess challenge – and add a fine for all national representative sportsman who does not sing (or at least lip-synch) and suddenly you have the start of a revolution called NationalISM. What a great concept! People being proud of their country, and so caring about the way it is abused by politicians for their own ends.

    Add to that a simple, and fiscally insignificant, change to the remuneration structure of Members of Parliament. Pay the Prime Minister a decent salary – say $10 million a year. Grade that down to a backbench MP getting a simple million a year. Make sure EVERYONE knows those are the salaries and that there are NO after office perks. Then watch the voting patterns change, as people talk about X not being worth the money!!

    A revolution is called for – let’s start with the flag and quickly move forward!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  8. OllieGI (36 comments) says:

    As long as it has the Union Jack on it. Keeping “our sovereign as head of state”!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  9. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    Why not just use the old defunct Soviet Union flag? Wouldn’t even need to change the colour, and the Klark voters would be ecstatic. Soviet Socialist Republic of Aotearoa. Got just the right totalitarian ring to it.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  10. insider (1,028 comments) says:

    So because you are unable to tell the difference in flags at a distance, we have to change it. Murray has pretty much destroyed what to me comes across as a ‘spoilt teen’ argument.

    I want a flag that clearly and simply symbolises our diverse history, the travels that brought us here and our place in world – and whaddya know? We have it already.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  11. Glutaemus Maximus (2,207 comments) says:

    I really think that we should check to see what our beloved leader wants.

    It is her country.

    Well in her dreams, anyway.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  12. CraigM (694 comments) says:

    After 9 years of socialist engineering, politics of envy, cronyism and desertion of our shores on a massive scale, I think we need a settling period of Nationalism (no pun intended). I would like to see a nation of people proud to be NZ’ers, caring about their neighbours, looking after their kids and believing in a better future.
    We have a lot of damage to repair. We don’t need the unneccessary division that would be caused by a “flag” debate.
    Leave our flag alone. The time is not right.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  13. pushmepullu (686 comments) says:

    In other countries at other times an oath of allegiance to the flag is taken and any attempt to blemish it is considered treason.

    Most of these countries are more prosperous and secure than New Zealand.

    Just saying.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  14. David Farrar (1,898 comments) says:

    I was talking to someone today who was at the Games. He said that almost all the Kiwis he knew there hated that you couldn’t tell easily whose flag was on the pole. Murray’s defence about the stars being unique overlooks the fact you can barely see them from a distance, plus 99% of people don’t know the exact design specs of the flag. The design should be something that 90% of Kiwis can recognise at a distance.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  15. GerryandthePM (328 comments) says:

    At the Beijing Olympics we had 14 chances to think the Australians were using the NZ flag, but only 3 chances to think we used theirs.
    With an eye to future Olympics perhaps we should change ours to look like China’s.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  16. Sam (502 comments) says:

    I don’t know whether it is our flag that is too dumb, or the people who can’t distinguish it from others’… I do know that the the debate that would be flamed by considering a change would be extreme, and that it would probably be easier to take the more obvious solution of becoming an Australian state…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  17. big bruv (13,926 comments) says:

    DPF

    I would suggest that those who “hated” the fact that our flag looks a bit like Australia’s are suffering from that well know Kiwi disease of identity crisis (IC)
    These are the same people who insist on earing bone carvings and performing piss poor examples of the haka at the drop of a hat, Dave “haka” Currie is one of the more famous people who has the full blown version of IC.

    Like Currie those with full blown IC really and honestly believe that the entire world knows who Valerie Vili is, they assume that every person on the globe was chuffed that some huge Sheila tossed the steel ball further than anybody else, they also assume that the entire sporting world was impressed with Mahe’s chunder.

    The reality is that the rest of the world does not give a toss, it would not matter if we changed the flag as they would still not know whose flag it was, the sooner we (as a nation) stop worrying about what the rest of the world thinks about us the better, hell we might even see an end to wall to wall haka’s and reporters asking overseas celebrities “how do you like NZ” two minutes after they land at Auckland Airport.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  18. big bruv (13,926 comments) says:

    Sam

    “probably be easier to take the more obvious solution of becoming an Australian state”

    Now you are talking, very well said.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  19. Murray (8,847 comments) says:

    I repeat for the hard of learning, if kiwis do not know their own flag it is their own fault.

    Making it a corporate logo will not suddenly create a nation of patriots.

    Meanwhile THAT is the flag that has been flown every time an athlete has won a medal at the games since we first began to participate.

    Since when is whinging atheltes the sole source of decision making process anyway?

    You want to talk to people who firstly give a real crap about our flag David and secondly actually have earned the right to some serious imput, go to your nearest RSA.

    But then has I mentioned crapping on our culteral heritage is par for the socialist course round here.

    Our national flag is not subject to the whims of fashion or transitory “who we are” huggy kissy touchey feely feel good minorities. It is our history. You want to change to something that suits your drinking buddies you had better be very serous about it because your are pissing on a lot of people to do it.

    If you are so damned concerned that kiwis don’t recognise their own flag David then start having them flown at every school. Fly one yourself, I dare you.

    And finally how many flags can’t be correctly identified from a distance? Thats right, most of them.

    Lameass weak and poor arguement David. D-

    The New Zealand ensign was good enough for Sarah Ulma to wear over her shoulder on her victory lap, could you see it then David? Perhaps you should take off your republican coloured glasses.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  20. PaulL (5,987 comments) says:

    Silver fern, and southern cross in the background. Or just one of those – either the silver fern on black (which would look great), or a stylised southern cross on a black background.

    Our current flag is crap. Just because we’ve had it forever doesn’t make it good. And changing it once in our history is hardly changing it like we change our socks (well, I don’t know how often you change your socks…).

    This has nothing to do with the Queen or being a republic. It has to do with having a clearly identifiable flag we can be proud of. Our current flag is not that.

    And, on the Republican debate….it is inevitable. We don’t need to push it along, we don’t need to vote on it, we don’t need to do anything at all. But in 100 years we’ll be a republic – I’m happy with Elizabeth, I’m not clear that Charles or one of his sons will have quite the acceptance. But before anybody changes anything I’d want to understand exactly what duties a new head of state would have – electing someone to go to school galas is a bit different than electing someone who sets our foreign policy.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  21. big bruv (13,926 comments) says:

    I predict that we will see this debate hot up this week.

    Dear corrupt leader will release a statement suggesting that the govt is considering a replacement for the flag, if that does not divert attention from her corrupt ways then we can expect to see Trev Mallard announcing that the govt have found a private enterprise investor who wants to build a waterfront stadium in Auckland in time for the Rugby world cup.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  22. insider (1,028 comments) says:

    If we want to use the southern Cross on a dark background the Federated States of Micronesia might get annoyed.

    I wonder if the people of Italy and Ireland have this discussion, or Belgium and Romania? OR do they just get on with life?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  23. LabourMustBeLiquidated (290 comments) says:

    If it ain’t broke…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  24. pushmepullu (686 comments) says:

    Dear Leader can mandate we change a flag but I for one will never cease my allegiance to the TRUE NZL flag, and will ignore the corrupt Liarbore flag… unless I take the chance to burn it. I look forward to defending myself in court by proudly proclaiming that the flag I burnt was NOT New Zealand’s flag, it was Labour’s flag and that the act of parliament passing it was illegitimate as was the government that passed it.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  25. big bruv (13,926 comments) says:

    PauL

    Speak for yourself please, I am never going to be proud of a piece of cloth but having said that I respect that many people are.
    You do not have a mandate from those who fought for our flag and you do not have the right to fucking well lecture the rest of us who do not want any change at all.

    And as for the sliver fern, the rest of the world thinks it looks like a white feather, are you sure thats the image you want to project?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  26. John Ansell (874 comments) says:

    Wow, what a lot of conservatives we have here.

    I’m with you David. The flag that would work for most New Zealanders would be the right kind of silver fern against a black background, relieved by horizontal bands of silver at top and bottom, with thin white bands separating the silver from the black.

    The key bit is the fern. That needs to be a classical rendition like the All Blacks used to wear in the 70s – before they changed the design to resemble a set of steak knives.

    Get the fern right and the black flag will fly. You’ll get every shade of opinion from the monarchists to the white feather brigade, but the big numbers will favour a silver fern flag if we choose the right fern.

    As for the Aussies, their flag should be gold Southern Cross and Federation stars against a green background.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  27. big bruv (13,926 comments) says:

    John Ansell

    Will you ever put outrageous claims such as “but the big numbers will favour a silver fern flag if we choose the right fern” to the test or will you in true Helen Clark style just announce that we now have a flag that features a white feather?

    If we are going to change the flag then IMHO it would have to be by an overwhelming majority, anything less than 75% support would just invite a shit fight of gigantic proportions.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  28. RRM (9,932 comments) says:

    This country is more than just the All Blacks. The flag is what it is, it has a history of representing New Zealand and New Zealanders in Sporting accomplishments, wars and anything else nationalistic.

    I don’t want the re-design of my nation’s flag thrown open to some colouring competition, and I certainly don’t want the formal symbol of the country to be the same as that of the All Chokers. Unless we are going to re-name the country the Federated Republic of All Blacks or something too…?

    It is all too easy to throw away historical artifacts.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  29. RRM (9,932 comments) says:

    Also it’s not just our flags that show our relationship to Australia. Ask any Englishman, American or Chinese and they’ll usually tell you they can’t easily tell an Australian from a New Zealander :-)
    This is not something to be ashamed of.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  30. pushmepullu (686 comments) says:

    John, we are indeed conservatives here and staunchly proud of it… I would think as a supporter of the ACT party you would not have a problem with conservatism.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  31. PaulL (5,987 comments) says:

    Heh, quite funny how flag debates cut across the political spectrum.

    Big bruv, I think you’ll find that I am speaking for myself.

    I do not need a mandate from those who fought for our flag, and I have some serious doubt that they did in fact “fight for our flag.” I thought they fought for our freedom, and I’m a damn sight more concerned about whether we still have that than whether we might change our flag.

    As for lecturing – well, who’s doing the lecturing? My opinion, my right to state it. I’m a NZ citizen, as such I am entitled to an opinion, and what’s more, a vote, on what our flag will be. So far as I can tell, your entire argument is ‘I don’t want to change.’ Sorry, that is not an argument, that is just being a grumpy old man.

    It is by no means the biggest issue facing this country, but if it comes down to it, I’d prefer to change the flag. I’d like to keep the Southern Cross – that means a lot to me. I couldn’t give a shit about the Union Jack, I don’t think it reflects who we are any more.

    I will, however, sign up with Sam to become an Australian state. Now that we are more poverty stricken than even Tasmania, think of the taxation transfers we’d get from the rest of Australia. We’d finally have a cricket team we could be proud of, and the Aussies would have a rugby team to be proud of. We’d get our bloody coach back. And, of course, all those minor ancillary benefits like being part of a growing economy, having decent economic policies, having a military that was worth something, and having a currency that wasn’t the play thing of Japanese house wives.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  32. dave strings (608 comments) says:

    >
    >>I don’t want the re-design of my nation’s flag thrown open to some colouring competition,
    >

    Funny. That’s exactly what happened in Canada and the competition came up with one of the most distinguishable flags in the world. Just like us and Oz, they had a flag with a union flag in the corner. There were some used to complain about it all the time, and finally there was enough support to get a referendum to select a flag. I think there were five on the ballot, and the “old” flag was one of them. The maple leaf didn’t ‘squeak’ a victory, it took something over 70%.

    I wonder what a well stylised fern would get in an open vote – viva democracy, viva 21st century democracy.

    (And Gaia help the ABs, they need it!)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  33. big bruv (13,926 comments) says:

    PaulL

    “will, however, sign up with Sam to become an Australian state. Now that we are more poverty stricken than even Tasmania, think of the taxation transfers we’d get from the rest of Australia. We’d finally have a cricket team we could be proud of, and the Aussies would have a rugby team to be proud of. We’d get our bloody coach back. And, of course, all those minor ancillary benefits like being part of a growing economy, having decent economic policies, having a military that was worth something, and having a currency that wasn’t the play thing of Japanese house wives.”

    Now that I DO agree with, just think how good it would be to have a cricket team that won the odd test match, hell we might even get one or two players from our “state” into the side every five years or so.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  34. ahod (31 comments) says:

    I couldn’t care less if the Aussies get confused about our flag in theirs. I care somewhat more that Kiwi’s could make the mistake – the reality, however, is that Kiwi’s know their flag.

    I don’t buy into the brand argument. The flag shouldn’t be the brand of the nation, that honour is one bestowed to the people and nothing else. We have a wonderful flag, and I would personally dislike a silver fern flag.

    If any change needs to be made to the flag then it is the removal of the Union Jack. Officially it has no correct place in our flag. We voluntarily chose to become an independent nation after dropping the dominion status, and then the realm status. Therefore holding the Union Jack is unneeded. Remove that, centralise the Southern Cross and we’d have a most lovely and appropriate flag.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  35. side show bob (3,660 comments) says:

    Cheer up DPF if Liarbore take out the election Dear Leader will no doubt call for a flag change, given the great love shown from the stupid peasants. Prehaps something with her scabrous mug glaring at us will be ordered for the natons flagpoles, that should be fun.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  36. insider (1,028 comments) says:

    ahod

    Firsly, the Union flag is a direct link to the majority of the population’s history, whether we like it or not. YOu can’t dismiss it as having no place.

    On your flag recommendation, take a look at the Federated States of Micronesia flag…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  37. s.russell (1,642 comments) says:

    “I want a flag that clearly and simply symbolises our diverse history, the travels that brought us here and our place in world – and whaddya know? We have it already.”

    I agree entirely. Except for the last sentence.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  38. stephen (4,063 comments) says:

    Heh, this has to be one of DPF’s ‘fall back options’ for a post when Winston isn’t doing much…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  39. Ed Snack (1,883 comments) says:

    Four Stars, Five Stars
    Red Stars, White Stars

    There, now even children can get it

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  40. barry (1,317 comments) says:

    1. Leave the flag alone – a much bigger issue is that we dont have a lot of New Zealanders. In fact when ever I get a survey to do they never ask if I am a New Zealander – they ask if Im of european extraction, or pacific Island, or maori or asian – but never actually “New zealander”.
    When we are New Zalanders first, then worry about the flag. In the meantime get the Ausys to change.

    2. When we do become one nation (and that includes maori’s who will become New Zealand maori rather than Maori new zealanders) then we do what Canada did – we have two national flags.
    Theirs are: a) the union Jack, and b) the maple leaf – and you can use either one you like. Their military uses the union flag mostly. We could have, um now let me think…………..um……….um

    Hey Ive got it – the current flag and a silver fern – hell what a good idea.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  41. Rakaia George (313 comments) says:

    If you’re going to change the flag, please can I have that bloody big one from Auckland Airport? Thanks in advance etc.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  42. Murray (8,847 comments) says:

    Ahem: fours stars, six stars
    White bordered five pointed red stars, seven pointed white stars

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  43. John Ansell (874 comments) says:

    1. Have I done the numbers? Yes. I did a survey of the various NZ flag options 20 years ago when I worked for Colenso Communications. It was clear that with the right choice of fern, a black flag would prevail. But the right choice of fern is critical, and no one’s managed it so far. Anyone know a designer who’d be prepared to work with me on it?

    2. No one ever fought and died for a flag. They fought and died for their country. Canadians who fought under their old Union flag had no problem adopting a new flag because it better represented their country. The same would happen here with the right design.

    3. Yes, the RIGHT half of the Cocos and Keeling flag would look good for Australia, with the Federation star replacing that tangle of designs on the left. (And they’re hardly likely to be seen at the same medal ceremony.)

    4. What is remotely conservative about ACT? Any conservative ACT member is really a Nat. ACT stands (or is supposed to stand) for doing things, not resisting change.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  44. emmess (1,428 comments) says:

    My first choice is the silver fern on black background
    Failing that: the current flag
    Any thing else is not an option

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  45. PaulL (5,987 comments) says:

    Hmm. There must be a kiwi in there somewhere. The Aussies should just steal the Qantas kangaroo – more Aussies recognise that than their flag anyway. And very many foreigners recognise it as Australia too. A bit of a pity about the red – but I guess they could do it in green and gold instead.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  46. Sam (502 comments) says:

    I agree about the importance of the fern motif – ideally it should be something generic enough for a kid to approximate, yet be sophisticated enough not to look like a child’s design – good luck… Personally, I hate the silver fern on black option though…

    Cocos (Keeling) is an Australian territory is it not? Perhaps if Aussie became a territory of the Cocos islands they could then adopt the flag as described above – we could remain independent (under HM of course) – even that seems more achievable than changing what we have…

    methinks pushmepullu needs to look up the meaning of conservative…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  47. Starfern (2 comments) says:

    Can I draw your attention to the new proposal on http://www.starfern.co.nz. My suggestion is to have a new “country” flag and a celebratory “people” flag. (We can retain the current flag with the Union Jack for military and British Commonwealth events like Canada does).

    I propose a new flag for our own country that isn’t utterly dominated by someone else’s flag. I suggest we use the natural green, white and blue colours of our farms and forests, mountains and clouds, sea and sky. But let’s also have a black, white and red flag to celebrate sport, courage, mana and Maori culture. (This means those who like black flags and those who loathe the idea of a black flag both have something to fly).

    For symbols, we are a country of 2s: two islands, North and South. and two treaty partners, Maori and non-Maori. So let’s have two symbols. Let’s keep the four stars of the Southern Cross to celebrate our southness and to welcome people from all points of the compass. (There is quite an interesting history behind the Southern Cross on our flag, on the website http://www.starfern.co.nz/index.php?pr=HistoryofSouthernCross). We can reflect the British heritage with the unique red white and blue stars. But we can also include the silver fern to celebrate the natural treasures and native people of this land.

    My design puts the stars and fern on an angle to match the North and South Islands respectively, and brings them together in a V shape to mean success (victory) comes from both islands and both treaty partners working together. http://www.starfern.co.nz

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  48. fishbowl (36 comments) says:

    I really don’t care that other countries can’t distingush our flag from an Australian one… It’s our flag, and it’s for us to recognise each other. Please don’t let ourselves dumb down our flag too.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  49. OECD rank 22 kiwi (2,752 comments) says:

    I think the flag is fine the way it is and does not need changing.

    A somewhat academic debate anyway as New Zealand will end up with whatever flag Australia has when New Zealand is forced by economic desperation to join the Australian federation as the “Southern Territory”.

    If you want to delay that fact then the best way to do that involving a flag design change would be to have a flag with a pink background and with a symbolised picture of a Kangaroo having bottom sex with a Kiwi. The Australian’s would find that so funny they would refuse to allow us to join the Australian Federation just so they could keep on laughing at “our” flag.

    Added bonus for David is it shouldn’t be so difficult to see a pink flag from across an Olympic stadium when New Zealand wins literally hundreds of Olympic Gold medals in the future.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  50. GK (97 comments) says:

    This is not happy mischief, it is shit stirring. Our ensign is a rallying focus for us, not the opposition. Who gives a rip what they think and its up to us to identify our own. Three previous generations of mine have earned the right to have that jack adorn their casket and one before that on a Northland battlefield under the Union Jack. It awaits members of a fifth and sixth generation.

    It flies over war graves in a number of continents, it is carved on their memorials and headstones. No bloody PR campaign has the right to hit the delete key on that.

    The only other ensign that has any legitimate currency here is the Flag of the United Tribes as it precedes this one, was designed in agreement by Maori, early settlers and a Royal Navy officer and was recognised as an international one, being flown on early NZ ships.

    A telling comment from a US commentator during the San Diego Americas Cup contest about the Silver Fern emblazoned on the NZ boat “What have these kiwis got a fish skeleton painted on their hull for?”

    Get a grip you republicanistas, you inherited the country’s history conducted under that blue jack. Honour it!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  51. OECD rank 22 kiwi (2,752 comments) says:

    What do we think of the new passport design?:
    Silver fern redesign gives passport more of a Kiwi look
    Nothing quite like a “distinguishable” black passport to help your average Kiwi get selected for additional security checks at customs.

    The passport should include the words “Choice, Heh?” on the cover and have a back page where people not from New Zealand can sign their name to agree with a statement that they “Like New Zealand, know where it is and think that New Zealand is actually an important country in the world”.

    If the government wants to be useful they should go back to ten year passports.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  52. Glutaemus Maximus (2,207 comments) says:

    Have checked, The majority of the Government and functionaries prefer a Rainbow Flag.

    They showed me a design, and I asked if it was to honour the Sinking of the Rainbow Warrior, and the resultant loss of life?

    All I got was queer looks.

    Doh!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  53. Glutaemus Maximus (2,207 comments) says:

    Frankly the flag debate need to be put on hold until we know the outcome of the election.

    All hands on deck to make it a National/ACT victory.

    Time and effort now needs to be spent on the ‘Your View’ sections of every paper in NZ to negate the full and determined efforts of the

    RED COHORTS!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  54. Starfern (2 comments) says:

    As flags go, ours is a fairly average one. It does identify who we are, no better or worse than many other flags do for other countries.
    There is no absolute necessity to change, and some people feel strongly that we should keep the current one as a mark of history and because of military tradition.
    For the same reason Canada, when it adopted its new flag, kept the Royal Union Flag as an official Canadian flag to be flown at appropriate times such as military or commonwealth commemorations.

    On the other hand our flag is utterly dominated by the Union Jack, the flag of a country that largely abandoned us when it entered the EU. Britain has changed enormously in the 140 years since my ancestors left British shores.
    Although Hillary was unashamedly part of a British Expedition, and claimed by them as part of the British race, We are not regarded by them as British any more.

    Many New Zealanders feel little or no personal connection with the flag.
    Most know almost nothing about the history or reasons behind the choice of the Southern Cross and the way it is depicted on our flag. (See history http://www.starfern.co.nz/index.php?pr=HistoryofSouthernCross )

    The Silver Fern is getting waved more and more, and many New Zealanders identify with it as much or more than the flag. The silver fern was on the olympic uniforms and I note it will now adorn our passports.
    Some New Zealanders want an All Black flag as our national flag. But many other New Zealanders hate the idea of our beautiful country being represented by a black flag

    I propose 1. We keep the current NZ flag with the Union Jack for military and British Commonwealth events (like Canada does).

    2. Let’s have a new flag that represents our own country and isn’t dominated by someone else’s flag. I propose we use the natural green, white and blue colours of our farms and forests, mountains and clouds, sea and sky as background colours.
    This may sound a radical but many of our local government bodies and many companies like Air NZ and Fonterra use blue/white/green and it’s also the colours of pauashell.

    3. Let’s keep the Southern Cross to celebrate our extreme southness (we have more right to fly it than other countries, since we can see it throughout our country all year round, unlike Australia).
    Let’s keep the four stars to mean we welcome people from all points of the compass. Let’s keep the red white and blue colouring of the stars to reflect our British heritage.

    4. Let’s include the silver fern to celebrate the natural treasures and native people of this land.

    5. Let’s angle the stars and fern to match the angles of the (upper) North Island and South Island respectively, and bring them together in a V shape to mean success (victory) comes from both islands and both treaty partners working together. That way it becomes a symbol of unity not division.

    6. Let’s also have a celebratory version with black, white and red colouring of the background, to celebrate sport, courage, mana and Maori culture. That way we bridge the gap between our different flag and symbols.

    To see what these might look like, see http://www.starfern.co.nz .

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  55. expat (4,050 comments) says:

    god knows NZ needs to ditch the apron strings re our flag. The current UK naval ensign derivative is a disgrace.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  56. expat (4,050 comments) says:

    GOOD GOD OECD, NOW THATS A FREAKIN TRAVESTY.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  57. Murray (8,847 comments) says:

    Fuck off expat, it was good enough for Ed Hillary to have on his coffin and its bloody well good enough for me.

    If you don’t give a crap out your countrys flag then don’t piss on those that do.

    All you “its just a bit cloth” mob can go dry the dishes if thats the way you feel.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  58. expat (4,050 comments) says:

    grow up, xenophobia makes murray a dull boy.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  59. OECD rank 22 kiwi (2,752 comments) says:

    John Ansell says on September 2nd, 2008 at 12:02 pm:

    The flag that would work for most New Zealanders would be the right kind of silver fern against a black background

    Not sure how good that would be for New Zealand flagged ships when countries with real navies proceed to blow said ships out of the water because they mistakenly believe them to be pirate ships flying the Jolly Roger.

    Then again, who would flag a ship under New Zealand’s flag when you have Panama and Liberia? Or is New Zealand as a possible flag of convenience “Christmas Future” stuff?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  60. bearhunter (853 comments) says:

    FFS, Starfern, why not give everyone their own flag and be done with it? Jesus it’s like being in school where everyone gets a certificate…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  61. Murray (8,847 comments) says:

    Grow up expat, buy a fucking dictonary and look up xenophobia.

    OECD New Zealand merchants do not fly the New Zealand ensign they fly the New Zealand Red ensign. But you make a good point. The Red duster is one of the most well recognised and respected merhcant flags. We should change it to and unkown sports logo because…?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  62. PeterG (21 comments) says:

    John Ansell wrote:
    The flag that would work for most New Zealanders would be the right kind of silver fern against a black background, relieved by horizontal bands of silver at top and bottom, with thin white bands separating the silver from the black.
    —-
    The white separating the silver from the black wouldn’t be good flag design. (Although it might be good logo design)

    The vast majority of flags follow the basic colour rules of heraldry. That is that you don’t put a colour on a colour or a metal on a metal. The metals are (in plain english) white and yellow. The colours are red,green,blue,black,purple.
    In cases where you might want to put, say, a red star on a blue background, you can get around it by ‘fimbriating’ the star, that is putting a white border around it.
    In the case of grey and white, they are heraldically the same metal – argent. So don’t provide contrast.

    The heraldic tincture rules are designed so that it is easy to see coats of arms clearly on a battle field and that charges don’t blend into the field they are placed upon. The same holds true for a well designed flag.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote