The real issue for Clark
The real issue for Clark is not whether she will sack Winston. Barring a miracle tonight, that will happen. All that means is he loses his baubles a few weeks early.
The real issue, is will she rule NZ First (so long as led by Winston) out of any post-election deal, should they make it back in?
John Key has said clearly that he will not have Peters in Cabinet, nor will he strike any sort of deal with NZ First. Will Helen Clark make the same pledge at John Key?
I suspect she won’t. I suspect she will sack him (telling Winston sorry but I have to do it as you got found out) but if he makes it back, she will happily negotiate a confidence and supply agreement with them, if it means she stays Prime Minister. She’ll say such an agreement is about policies, not personalities.
So that is the question that should be asked Clark when she sacks him. Does she rule out any and all deals with NZ First post-election, if they make it back?
September 10th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
of course she won’t..rule him out..
..her name isn’t stupid/key..
..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
September 10th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
Indeed, Clark will do anything to hold onto power. Key won’t do certain things to gain power. That is why I am so happy about the side of the fence I am on.
September 10th, 2008 at 1:38 pm
She will not rule Winston out because that could mean that Labour loose the Treasury benches, and as she has already shown, she will do anything to anyone to retain power. Labour are yet again showing that they have the Morals and Principles of gutter rats.
September 10th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
it’s called politics 101..
..bert..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
September 10th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
i have to admit.. i generally have the morals and principles of a gutter rat.. id stil talk to him. try and find a way to throw him a bone, keep him parliment, give him some baubles..
September 10th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
philu
Politics 101 is don’t get caught telling lies. Labour have failed that test.
September 10th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
I think another interesting question will be…
Will Winston implode, and like a political suicide bomber take out everyone around him?
September 10th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
Peters has poisoned every government he has ever been a part of. Risky business for Clark, but…’power!’
September 10th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
Come now David, you cannot expect our Dear Leader to sack an Honourable Member over an innocent mistake made by his amateurish underlings?
Besides, the TAB doesn’t pay off when only one leg of the trifecta is run — we need the Triple Crown here before our Chief Steward will deign to hold an inquiry:-
* condemned by the Privileges Committee (which won’t happen because Parliament will be dissolved first)
* successfully prosecuted by the Serious Fraud Office (oh, sorry, they were disbanded before they could finish)
* successfully prosecuted by the Police (“not in the public interest to prosecute”)
In any case, a little bit of retrospective legislating will take care of any inconvenient truths. And that jokester Owen Glenn will be “taken care of” — her indoors is still Minister of the SIS, you know.
September 10th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
what would Emperor Palpatine do? dissolve parliment?
September 10th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
I think Helen’s biggest problem is where will her next big political donation come from, cos OG sure won’t be giving them any more money.
I guess that’s why they are working towards state funding of political parties, cos they screwed over all their private donors.
I’d like to see him donate to a party on the other side of the fence. Which would be the worst snub to Labour… National? Act? The EFA @&*^%*&^ proponents will be wishing they hadn’t left that door open!
September 10th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
I’m willing to bet shes already cutting a deal with him to keep him quiet.
Secret meetings anyone?
September 10th, 2008 at 2:13 pm
>>”I think Helen’s biggest problem is where will her next big political donation come from, cos OG sure won’t be giving them any more money.”
Perhaps they could now adopt New Zealand First’s approach, relying on proceeds from cake stalls, raffle tickets and sausage sizzles to fund their party operations.
Oh, no, wait — those were Monaco gateau stalls, buy-me-a-policy raffle tickets and Kermadec scampi sizzles, weren’t they?
Thank goodness TV3 is bringing back Telethon!
September 10th, 2008 at 2:31 pm
“Will Helen Clark make the same pledge at John Key?”[not to include Peters} that choice may be removed if the questions raised by the SFO relating to “serious and complex fraud” are borne out
September 10th, 2008 at 2:40 pm
Having watched q2 at Question Time today, she’s still running the “it’s his word against his word’ argument – don’t count on Winston getting the flick…
September 10th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
philu’s comment 1 on this thread is proof positive of the moral bankrupcy of the Clark Labour Government.
My old dad, Labour through and through, is surely turning is his grave. That the Party he tramped the streets for is reduced to this.
And the real pity is that philu can’t bring himself to recognise the truth.
September 10th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
Arrrgghhh! That’s the second time today you’ve raised the spectre of a Winston-less NZF having a role in government.
It has no role in Parliament David, let alone government. Who would you see leading it? Peter Brown, a lazy pompous man happy to butt-cover for his leader by claiming corruption as a “mistake” and whose views on race relations and immigration must surely be an anathema to you as they are to most people?
Or your mate Ron Mark, who’s singlehandedly set new lows for unparliamentary behaviour, hypocrisy and cowardice and is willing to go even further than Brown and smear and denigrate opponents to cover for his boss and, frankly, mostly because he’s a nasty, angry little man.
Doug Woolerton, who showed both his sense of decorum and his intelligence beyond a shadow of a doubt in an interview his own party won’t link to on its blog? (and I suspect that that is due more to the astounding stupidity displayed therein rather than the robust – and totally unnecessary- language). And who was a party to many of the actions which are now in the public arena (and many which are not) and are rightly attracting calls for Winston’s sacking?
Just who is this “NZ First” you can see an opening for post-election? Or do you think there’s an army of decent, honest open-minded people waiting in the wings to take over? There used to be at one time; there certainly isn’t now.
Yes, there’s a place for a moderate conservative broadly centrist party built round more than Peter Dunne’s desperate need for a job, but NZ First – in any form – is not the answer, barring a revolution by the tiny handful of decent people in positions of power (and frankly, the only one I can think of is poor George Groombridge) which would throw every single one of their present MPs off the top of the list. And that’s about as likely as Winston fessing up this evening.
September 10th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
I am interested in this quote from the PM today
“Clearly I gave Mr Glenn and Mr Peters the benefit of the doubt and time will tell whether that was justified,” Miss Clark said.
How can you give both, opposing individuals the benefit of the doubt.
Particularly if there is as she says, “a conflict of evidence”?
It is a statement that doesn’t even make sense!
September 10th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
That is a question Helen will be considering very closely. I certainly would take Glenn’s word that he discussed the 10k with Williams. It is almost certain that Williams discussed this with Clark. It is also highly likely Winston had a deal with Helen that if she helped him get the 100k from Glenn he would support Labour over the issues that were most important for her.
Helen will be very careful how she treats Winston. If she dumps him and treats him like she has Glenn he is likely to turn feral. For a start he can tell how he discussed the 100k with back in 2005 whether it is true or not. The second thing she has to worry about is that he has a dossier on various Labour MPs including Helen.
Ian Wishart has made much of the rumour that that Peter Davis got out the States under a diplomatic passport because he was being investigated by US authorities. I will not repeat the other rumour about that but if it is true if is likely that Winston as Minister of Foreign Affairs he would know about it. Some might consider this muck raking. It may be but there is a lot more to it if it is true it would be very serious corruption. If any MP uses their position to help a family member either here or overseas to evade being properly investigated for criminal offence that is very serious corruption.
September 10th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
David, one wonders, would Key hand the ownership of the foreshore back
to Maori to gain power ?
Or would the Nats rather sit in opposition if they have not got the numbers
without the cuzzies ?
September 10th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
Hey Chuck
Was that you I heard on talkback during the night?
I couldn’t believe it, I woke up during the night to hear people trying to justify Winston and Helen’s actions.
Thank goodness you rang in to put the record straight!
September 10th, 2008 at 4:02 pm
Chuck It wont happen Its called mutually assured destruction They all have enough on each other to ensure no one will spill the beans.
Sadly this reflects on the unethicall immoral and criminal nature of their characters.
However in the case of the SFO Im now reasonably confident they have the motive to prosecute their case against Luigi The Police on the other hand will fold and we will get the ‘prima facie case but not in the public interest blah blah blah’
the best outcome would be for the SFO to announce in the week or 2 leading up to the election that they have sufficent evidence to prosecute Luigi and set out the charges against him.
Only his most loyal and demented followers will then vote ofr NZ1 and that aint 5%. So if the Socialists get around 35% and Greens around 6/7 then unless the MP go with them its all over rover
September 10th, 2008 at 4:02 pm
grumpy
“David, one wonders, would Key hand the ownership of the foreshore back
to Maori to gain power ?”
If he did that he would further deplete the ranks of the National party, he lost me with all the “me too” policy and I can imagine that he would further erode the support base for the party if he agreed to give ownership of OUR beaches to one race of people.
We have enough racist policy in NZ as it is, we do not need any more.
September 10th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
“Will Helen Clark make the same pledge at John Key?”
so thats the ‘We wont work with Winston…….unless’ pledge?
Man, Im tempted to vote NZ First and hope they get in just to see what Key does then.
September 10th, 2008 at 5:32 pm
of course she won’t..rule him out..
..her name isn’t stupid/key..
..eh..?
Phil. As I said, the Morals and Principles of Gutter rats. These people are supposed to be New Zealands Leaders. If they are, then I ask one question. WHERE THE FUCK ARE THEY LEADING US??? I want “Honest” Politicians. Not Politicians who are so corrupted by Power that they will do anything to retain it.
September 10th, 2008 at 5:52 pm
Indeed, Clark will do anything to hold onto power. Key won’t do certain things to gain power. That is why I am so happy about the side of the fence I am on.
Hear hear!
September 10th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
it’s called politics 101..
Then fuck the politicians! Its about time we had people in power in this country who sort the position out of a sense of duty. Not the kind of gutter rats you support phil, who only seek the treasury benches out of duty to themselves.
In short, the career politicians can go and screw themselves.
September 10th, 2008 at 6:00 pm
Does being a career politician in the Clark Absolute Power regime entitle one to enjoy full corruption privileges, catapult the ego and dull the senses ? Lies, lies,lies, girls on film.
September 10th, 2008 at 6:05 pm
WELCOME HOME d4J
September 10th, 2008 at 6:10 pm
Chuck Bird suggests:
All another country has to do to get its hands on any NZ citizen it considers has committed an offence within its borders (assuming that country has an extradition treaty with NZ) is to apply to a NZ court for an arrest and extradition warrant. The court in NZ does not consider the strength of the case against that person, it simply rubber-stamps the application, issues the warrant and lets the person be dragged off to a hostile environment where they may have no support and few, if any, contacts.
If Peter Davis had committed an offence in the US, the US prosecutor could simply ask to have him dragged back there. Which means either:
a) the rumours are bullshit; or
b) someone had a word at some level of the US government and got someone with a lot of influence to agree this wouldn’t be a very “diplomatic” course of action.
While Davis’s position by virtue of his marriage to Clark makes option b tempting as a conspiracy theory such a tactic would rely on every single person involved – the arresting officer(s), any witnesses, the prosecutor(s), the NZ officials, and anyone to whom those people had related the events – to keep silent. And from what I know of cops the world over, if someone gets off a charge they react very poorly indeed and redouble their efforts to get that person for anything and everything they can. At the very least they’d leak like a sieve to their tame media contacts.
So while I don’t for one moment think Winston’s above misusing the powers of his office, I think the whole think is quite possibly bullshit.
September 10th, 2008 at 6:14 pm
The only thing likely to save Winston Peters from inevitable doom at 7.30 tonight is the Large Hadron Collider gets turned on half an hour earlier
(- and the world gets sucked into a big black hole!)
September 10th, 2008 at 6:34 pm
Yeah! Winnes only way out may well be the sucking of earth into a black hole just about the time he needs it to to save his arse!
LOL
September 10th, 2008 at 7:38 pm
It is a disturbing possibility that has been raised on this thread, that Helen, far from cutting him loose, will be promising Winston the earth after the next election if only they can tough their way through to yet ANOTHER win courtesy of a brain-dead NZ voting public. Where o where are the leaks and stolen information that would give us an insight into THESE backroom deals?
September 10th, 2008 at 9:21 pm
Look Winston First and Hels are making New Zealand world famous.
The BBC sums up the predicament of Winston and Labour here:
Demise looms for NZ’s kingmaker
September 10th, 2008 at 9:23 pm
Well it looks like Winston First and Hels are making New Zealand world famous.
The BBC sums up the predicament of Winston and Labour here:
Demise looms for NZ’s kingmaker
September 10th, 2008 at 11:41 pm
Oops, double posted by accident.
Still not looking good for “Kingmaker” Winston.