Citizenship Scandal?
October 17th, 2008 at 5:41 pm by David FarrarJust listened to Ian Wishart on Newstalk ZB with Larry Williams. The story seems to be:
- A Chinese gentleman has had problems with Australian immigration as he travels under different names, different passports with different dates of births.
- This was known to NZ authorities
- He applied to be a NZ Citizen
- DIA recommended he be turned down due to the multiple aliases
- The Minister approved it, despite the dodgy aliases and the recommendation
- The gentleman’s application was supported by a Labour MP and is known to a couple of Ministers
- He attended a fundraising function for Labour and probably donated to them, but impossible to know for sure as they do not record who donated what – people just throw cash into a hat or something.
This is all off listening to Ian on the radio.
Related posts:
- Herald on Jones
- Yang Liu’s private VIP citizenship ceremony in Parliament
- Will Liu/Yan keep his citizenship
- Scandal worse than online shows
October 17th, 2008 at 5:49 pm
http://www.elections.org.nz/record/donations/donations-summary.html
Pick one.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
Sounds like he’s got documentation to prove 1-6 beyond doubt. We probably have to infer 7. However, it sounds to me that 1-6 in itself is serious enough in itself.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
all above
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 5:53 pm
Why is it with Labour that whenever any special considerations are made by a Minister it is never for a good cause, but normally involves a family member, cheap Labour or dishonest donor?
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
You can listen to the full interview on the ZB website
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 5:58 pm
Full report will be published at 11pm tonight.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 6:10 pm
http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/audio2/17173149.wma
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 6:14 pm
Let’s see Francesca ‘Landing Strip’ Mold grilling Helen Clark over this one……
“Ummm….excuse me, Prime Minister…..”
“WHAT?”
“Ummm…..nothing…..”
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
The question has to be asked why a case like this would ever go to the Minister for signoff unless something dodgt was going on. DIA must turn down peoples applications every day yet for some reason these people always seem to get higher level support.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
Well, I wouldn’t believe a thing Ian Wishart says! His track record for accuracy is only slightly better than Trevor Louden’s.
I’m not interested in conspiracy theories DPF. And why are you playing this thread into Winston’s race-card camp, when you, as I, would like to see him and his racist and corrupt party gone forever from Parliament? I just don’t think it is a good look re stategy to get into immigration issues at the moment – from either a National or Green Party perspecive – unless there is very solid evidence of corruption.
Otherwise, it is just more votes to Luigi, exploiting the racist underbelly of New Zealand, as he does. And one of the things the Greens and the Nats agree on is that we want him out of there.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
No mention at all on any of the socialist controlled TV stations.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 6:16 pm
Honestly bloggers, when you got a criminal government providing scandal after scandal and the deranged greenies asking kiwis’ to have less babies you have to ask yourself, how low can New Zealand go?
Vote:As a country we deserve a lot better and anyone voting for these creeps should be closely monitored by police.
October 17th, 2008 at 6:19 pm
And instead of this leading the news, before the first set of ads on TVNZ tonight we get 90 seconds of some rumour of Tom Cruise’s demise in NZ. Needless to say, the Tom Cruise story was enough for me to switch over to the cricket.
Look forward to reading the full story in TGIF tonight.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 6:24 pm
problem is point 7.
looks bad but no proof of accepting a “donation”.
msm will not be interested.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 6:26 pm
Contrast this with the Sri lankan child who was booted out of the country by this labour party and the then minister lied through her fucking teeth and lost her perks…. FOR A SHORT WHILE…. We will not let child rape victims stay (and in fact drug and cuff them to the airport to be sent back to the rapists) but friends of the labour party can stay even if they are known to be dodgy and the DIA advises against letting them in……
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
Heck Toad. After the Greens announcing there “only one kiwi child” policy today to allow more refugees into the country I’m beginning to wonder if you guys got a bit of a kicker out of this one too?
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
toad opines:
“Well, I wouldn’t believe a thing Ian Wishart says!”
Translation: I have my head in the sand because I’m scared it might be true.
“His track record for accuracy is only slightly better than Trevor Louden’s.”
Trevor’s accuracy is very good.
“I’m not interested in conspiracy theories DPF.”
DPF does not write for you so what your interested in is besides the point. Plus if Ian has evidence, its not a theory, its an accusation.
By the way, I love Pol Pot lover Keith Locke’s plan to up our refugee intake by a third. There is just not enough Muslim Jihadists in the country!
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
Is closing your eyes a practice often used when receiving donations to avoid liability???
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 6:30 pm
The greens are insane. If this chap was a yank and National the government all hell would break loose in the msm world of leftist shit tossers.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 6:33 pm
double d
Proving it…. This is one of Wishart’s points. It can’t be proven who gave what. So if I stump up to a Labour party fundraiser along with 300 other people and pour $50,000 in crispy new bills into the “Help the Labour-led govt buy an election” wheelie bins it is declared as anonymous along with all the other cash received. If I wanted to write a cheque like that to Labour my name would be published on the elections.org web site… Where is the accountability? Is this still happening under the EFA? Are other parties doing it as well?
(Special note to lefty supporters – If other parties are also doing this then that is not making Labour blameless. We do not need retrospective legislation to make it OK and it must be stopped not expressly made legal in new laws)
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
double d “msm will not be interested.”
not without proof
otherwise… well, why not make any old thing up?
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 6:37 pm
If the minister was unaware of the allegations, he is in the clear.
If he knew of the allegations but considered that there was no real basis to them, he may be guilty of bad judgement. That isn’t exactly a massive surprise to anyone who has been watching the government for the past three years.
If there is no evidence for No. 7, then Wisharts allegations of corruption look pretty weak.
Sorry, but from DPF’s summary, this doesn’t exactly live up to the advance billing.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 6:40 pm
toad – dont know how you can throw the race card in there. same thing would still be relevant if it was a Pom turned down by DIA. You’re the one playing the race card.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
bobux (159) Vote: 0 0 Says:
October 17th, 2008 at 6:37 pm
If the minister was unaware of the allegations, he is in the clear.
Then why would the minister need to support the application??
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
Early days yet.
And yeah, what race card? Pointing out that he’s a Chinese national is just a statement of fact.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
Toad have you read Absolute Power?
Try the chapter about the crook Dunedin copper who King held up as a model citizen and then do a search on his name and find the article from two weeks ago where Wishart was proved 100% correct.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
yeah I agree with bobux. all sound and fury, but fuck all really.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 6:44 pm
bobux
Apparently the man was known to at least one of the ministers involved.
Which brings up a very interesting question? Is there time for Labour to set up an inquiry, define the terms and the timeframe, conduct the inquiry and exonerate all Labour-led govt ministers involved before the election?
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 6:44 pm
A Chinese gentleman has had problems with Australian immigration as he travels under different names, different passports with different dates of births.
Well, as they all “look alike” how could the aussies be sure it was the same man?
As Artie Calwell said Two wongs don’t make a white
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 6:49 pm
burt – agree.
my angle is this is not a king hit unfortunately.
similar to the potato field immigration issue – in that it will be dragged out and not have any impact on this election campaign – labour will spin like a top and msm will do as told.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 6:49 pm
Oh wait, sorry, I forgot. According to toad, Paul and other Greenies here we are NEVER allowed to say ANYTHING negative about ANYONE who is not a white male heterosexual.
Well, unless it Americans.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 6:49 pm
I think with the existing immigration residency for mates scam going through the process at the moment the association is more damaging than the donations. NZ people are pretty hardened to hearing about donation scandals from the Labour-led govt. Winston has punched the sensitivity out of people who were not already battle scared by the 2005 election debacle and the subsequent retrospective validation of 14 years of bad behaviour.
It will be interesting to see who is named and to see how they handle it IF they start getting microphones pushed into their faces.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 6:50 pm
Citizenship being sold to dodgy Asian business people, with the size of their bank balance seemingly the only criteria – meanwhile genuine immigrants and deserving refugees get told “sorry, full up”?
Been there, did that, back in 1995/6 complete with statistics. It was meant to be #1 on NZF’s “to do” list when it got into a position of power. Seems other things were actually more important to Winston (and, at the time, Laws) and so the rorts seemingly continue.
Perhaps the last few talkback listeners still adhering to Winston’s coat tails – who’ll no doubt be calling in to express their outrage at this – need reminding that he’s known about this sort of dodge for the past 13 years at least (because it was he who, using research by Terry Heffernan through speeches written by me, revealed them) – yet despite having held positions of power and influence in both National and Labour governments – did not, as he promised them, do anything to shut it down.
Even moreso than the donations he’s received, and what he did or did not do with them, making them connect those dots would probably ensure the oblivion that party so richly deserves.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
Ian gets some things right and some things wrong. The fact that hes out there digging is whats important, given that most of the gutless and biased MSM has its mouth firmly planted on Helen’s ass.
What really pisses toad off is that anyone dares to critique the Left. After all, the odious Electoral Finance Act was passed because the EB criticized the Greens. Fascist terrorist loving bastards. If they get into serious power wait for the scum to pass laws banning the work Ian does.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
Wishart in the audio clip also states that DIA have said this is not an isolated case. Ummm, thinking about how that free trade deal with China might have relevance in this? Which ministers were involved? How many people? Who?
The simple solution would be to audit all citisenship approvals that were not routine for the last 7 years. The SFO could do this if Labour don’t shut them down before the election now they are finished with Winston.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 7:04 pm
There would have to a lot more to this than what has been revealed so far to make it a real issue. All that has been shown so far is that the Minister has possibly made a bad decision. At least that’s the excuse he could use without any decent proof.
It needs to be remembered that MP’s get involved in these immmigration cases on a regular basis.
I’m open minded about this one but am not convinced so far.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 7:04 pm
At the very least, Labour needs to explain why they approved citizenship in such a suspect case.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
Rex
I assume that you know a bit more about this than some of us who are waiting for the info drip by drip. Do you think this is going to cause some waves or will it get the standard Labour-led whitewash?
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 7:08 pm
tknorriss
You said; “At the very least, Labour needs to explain why they approved citizenship in such a suspect case.”
Can I paraphrase that to make it real;
An accountable govt would need to explain why they approved citizenship in such a suspect case.
Sorry to be picky, I’ve just given up expecting Labour to answer openly and honestly when it’s not politically expedient to do so.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 7:09 pm
This just reads like the system working properly. He was rejected for something suspicious, appealed on the grounds that it only looked suspicious, and actually wasn’t a problem at all. And the Minister upheld the appeal.
On the evidence provided above, I don’t see anything wrong whatsoever.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
frog: “Well, I wouldn’t believe a thing Ian Wishart says! His track record for accuracy is only slightly better than Trevor Louden’s.”
Like the chap or loathe him, at least have the integrity to acknowledge that he’s taken on so many people with sufficient resources to test inaccuracies in court, and all of them so far chose to “ignore him” cause they “wouldn’t want to waste their time”, or “wouldn’t want to give him any credibility”.
You know the code.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
milo
I’m completely sure that ‘normal’ or not Labour will do everything they can to whitewash this. However – Aussie immigration pulled him for multiple passports and identities. I don’t think that’s something that stacks up very well under the banner of ‘normal’ for unusual approvals. I could be wrong.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
petal
That is the point, unless Cullen & Benson Pope like to be associated with watching young girls paid to have sex with a Police dog then why don’t they sue Wishart’s ass off for defamation? Durty ol Dunners eh…
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 7:31 pm
d4j said: The greens are insane.
Look to yourself before you make accusations about mental illness d4j! How many times have you been banned from various blogs (including this one) for losing the plot and engaging in unreasoned abuse?
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 7:39 pm
Grow up Toad. Get in the real world you cyberpunk psych nutbar and being banned from a blog means f all. What a deranged world you green freaks live in.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
Southern Raider said: Toad have you read Absolute Power?
I am not saying Wishart gets everything wrong. Often he gets things right.
But I still maintain that he is a conspiracy theorist, and will, when it suits his marketing strategy or (I suspect, without being able to provide sufficient cited evidence unless I were to defer this comment to tomorrow) his NZF-supportive politics, draw conclusions for political purposes that cannot be justified on the legal basis of “the balance of probabilities”.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
nothing to see here… move on, move on…. (one tries not to get too cynical….sigh…)
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
“balance of probabilities” or prima facie Mr Toady of Crap Hall?
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 7:47 pm
Helen sez (rightly) that this election is all about ‘TRUST’
so it appears ….
if you are a wealthy Chinese immigrant
with Interpol arrest warrants out against you
with multiple aliases
and multiple passports
with differing dates of birth
and deported from Aussie
with the DIA ‘red flagging’ your citizenship application
you can TRUST Labour Ministers
to exercise their prerogative
to ignor Departmental advice
and approve your citizenship application
and all it costs
is an ‘anonymous’ donation to Labour
at a fundraiser
designed to circumvent the EFA
no story here
move on
it happens all the time
TRUST me
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 7:49 pm
Only one Kiwi child Toad? have you guys gone back to the Values Party or something: Zero Economic Growth, Zero Population Growth and abortion, drug and homosexual law reform.
Your not going to counter Winston by telling people to not have a Kiwi child, but let in hundreds of Zaoui. You’ll make them flock to him!!
Cute kid on your billboard – shame you want to ban them
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
What was the prediction from a few people (left and right) yesterday? Damp squib.
Some guy has multiple passports. OK, a little dodgy, but there are reasons in some cultures why that happens. And is multiple 2, or is it 20? The latter I’d be more worried about.
He applies for citizenship, gets refused, appeals, gets accepted. So far, no big news – or certainly not big dirt. And then he maybe donated to Labour.
Maybe this can be spun into something, but sorry, I just don’t see it. I was hoping for something juicy – something that would be the nail in the coffin of Labour. This is noise, and if people try to push it hard and make it something it isn’t, it will reflect on them, and probably hurt their cause because they’ll look shrill. Part of the art here is knowing when what you have is really a scandal, and when it is just some inappropriate behaviour that there are some explanations for (even if those explanations sound a bit dodgy) and that cannot be proven.
Meh. Wishart needs to try harder.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 7:56 pm
Wow
Big story. Shame we do not have any proof whatsoever of any of it, and even Wishart has no proof of any payment.
I have stumbled upon this even bigger scandal and it goes like this …
1. A member of parliament in the opposition is appointed to a spokesmanship position.
2. He buys shares in a corporate because of information that he receives in the course of fulfilling his duties in the expectation that they will increase
3. During the course of his employment he then discovers the share price of the corporate is going to tank
4. He talks the share price up using public resources
5. He sells at a significant profit
6. When asked about the transaction he initially denies it but then admits it when he realises the reporter knows about the transaction
I can hardly wait for Wishart to report on this. If he is an investigative reporter he should be interested in all suggestions of corruption.
Or is he selective? If so can we trust him?
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 7:56 pm
is this it????????
Vote:OMG
desparation!
October 17th, 2008 at 7:59 pm
lying about shares?
Vote:neglecting to declare an interest?
twisting facts?
can you trust a flip-flopping hollow man?
October 17th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
Looks like, as far as the lefty ‘chaff-dispersers’ are concerned, two Wongs, do make a white…
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 8:13 pm
mickysavage – you have taken a few facts and spun a tissue of lies about them. Absolute, unmitigated lies.
That, more than anything, is why Labour have to go. They have created a culture of total mendacity for political purposes. They often tell a literal truth, but in a way designed to perpetrate deceptions. And then there are the really big lies and disgusting abuse, which your comment epitomizes.
That is the true scandal, that Labour have reduced our once proud government to a bullying, mendacious, self-serving, incompetent rabble. John Key is not perfect, but he simply cannot be any worse than what Labour have become.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 8:17 pm
But no ‘smoking gun’ linking this to Labour?
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 8:20 pm
Quoted from Ian Wishart’s site
“UPDATE 7PM: The Government has just issued a news release confirming an investigation into immigration fraud has begun into the man at the centre of this story…we’ll have a full wrap-up in TGIF EDITION, out later tonight for subscribers”
So – Labour isn’t worried huh? OIA question – when did the investiagion start?
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
“but I still maintain that he is a conspiracy theorist”, good one Toad. Please don’t tell me you lefties would never dream up a good conspiracy. Shit, you have one of the better bullshit artists on your payrole. Have you not heard of “Nicky I’m as mad as a snake Hager”.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 8:24 pm
Patrick Starr said: <Only one Kiwi child Toad? have you guys gone back to the Values Party or something: Zero Economic Growth, Zero Population Growth…
Yell me where in the Green Population Policy either of those statements occur!
They do not. You are misrepresenting it totally Patrick. If we faced the overpopulation v indigenous energy/food resources to support that population problems some counties (like China, USA, or India) have, we might have to consider such measures to ensure we do not have to go to war to secure resources to maintain our population from elsewhere.
But we in New Zealand do not, so it is not an issue we have to grapple with here.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 8:25 pm
The Labour shills have become more shrill. Tells he whole story, don’t it?
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 8:34 pm
side show bob said: … you lefties would never dream up a good conspiracy. Shit, you have one of the better bullshit artists on your payrole. Have you not heard of “Nicky I’m as mad as a snake Hager”.
Nicky Hager is a far better researcher than Ian Wishart. Hager can verify his claims – hundreds of leaked Nat emails included.
But he did no favours for the Greens in 2002 – his untimely release of “Seeds of Distrust” probably cost the Greens 2 or 3 MPs in the 2002 election. He is not politically motivated (in the “Party” political sense), but motivated by his own personal ethics.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 8:38 pm
Go to war!! That’s a bit drastic Toad. I didn’t think the word was in the green dictionary. (Shit, we may have to rebuild our armed forces)
“If we faced the overpopulation v indigenous energy/food resources to support that population ” but we’re not! That’s the whole point, we’re not. And if we ever have to sacrifice our population it wont be at the expense of our own kids to let a bunch of refugees like Zaoui.in. GOT THAT??
And if you’re trying to defend it on the basis of countering Winstons immigration bashing (as you claimed) then you really haven’t thought this through very well
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 8:41 pm
Is that it? Funny, this will do nothing.
and I was honestly worried (well not really it is Wishart).
Addie “shills have become more shrill” that would be Key at a leaders debate.
Dad I don’t want to bring this up, but “criminal government”, you are a funny funny guy.
I’ve got two passports, my brother has two passports and a good friend has 3 passports. I think I should be packing my bag and walking straight to the prison, this seems to be a scandal offence now.
Yawn.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 8:43 pm
“Nicky Hager is a far better researcher than Ian Wishart.”
Sticky Nicky verse Honest Ian . TAB paying evens Hager lights out round one.
Edit – Paul get a life you creep.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
“I think I should be packing my bag and walking straight to the prison,”
Fucken good idea
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 8:47 pm
Paul – the red cell block thank you freak.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 8:49 pm
(Hagar is) “motivated by his own personal ethics.”
Hahahah, that’s one of your best ones yet Toady. If Hagar had “ethics”, he wouldn’t have published the contents of stolen emails. Very few leftists even know what the word means.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 8:50 pm
Wishart had said on Newstalkzb that the reason he came into this info was that after the election date was announced, and Helen Clark said that the election was to be about trust, staff members from the Auckland office of the DIA leaked this information to Wishart as they saw this as the last straw.
As I understand the issue, The DIA recommended against citizenship as investigations into his bona fides were inconclusive, and that the man at the center of the issue, who was wanted by interpol, would not co-operate with officials. After intervention by a labour MP, and 2 ministers, a man with this uncertain background was granted citizenship.
If these facts turn out to be correct, are the actions of the Labour MP’s defensible?
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 8:51 pm
Toad – Hager the Horrible should be charged with receiving stolen property?
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 8:53 pm
HEY PEEPLES! LISTEN UP!
Read: http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/423466/1726352 !!!
MSM, and you, and Ian Wishart(!) have all missed the connection, Mary Anne Thompson.
What was good for the goose, was also thought to be good for the gander.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 8:53 pm
Toad, the Green population policy is a joke.
A very very bad one at that.
First point, is that you even have one.
And now Russel is trying to spin, and it sounds just as bad:
Like many people, the Green Party is concerned with the growing global population, and the pressure that puts on the Earth’s resources.
Yes, so you’ve released a population policy and urge parents to visit a family planning clinic. Family Planning being the Orwellian euphemism for not actually having a family.
Just step one I suppose. Not yet the final solution, but hey, even Greens have to have a secret agenda.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 8:55 pm
Hager not politically motivated? Pull the other one. If you are going to say that Hager is motivated by his own personal ethics, then you would have to accept that Ian is too.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 8:55 pm
The greens want designer babies?
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 8:55 pm
Paul
As I heard on the Wishart interview, he had 2 passports under different identities. Yeah, I have two passports as well, but they are for the same person (me). That is part of the problem the NZ DIA has, who the feck is this person? Might be good if you replay the interview again eh?
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 8:56 pm
yeah, designed by the people of Ethiopia
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 8:58 pm
Paul has a passport – for each of his personalities
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:00 pm
This broke on Newstalk ZB 3 hours ago and not one single major news organisation has picked it up – now I wonder why?
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:00 pm
Actually ZenTiger the Green population control policy is correct to a socialist. Bigger population means greater ability to reallocate resources from the rich to the poor, thus population equalized. Yeah its bollocks, just communism by another means.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:00 pm
Patrick Starr, I wonder what a green designer baby looks like? I shudder at the thought of their future billboards? FFS!
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:01 pm
Shady said: Quoted from Ian Wishart’s site
“UPDATE 7PM: The Government has just issued a news release confirming an investigation into immigration fraud has begun into the man at the centre of this story…we’ll have a full wrap-up in TGIF EDITION, out later tonight for subscribers”
It looks like Labour is very worried and is trying to front-foot it. I think they know there is a lot to this. From what it sounds like, from what Wishart can conclusively prove there are some major and serious questions that arise. It might not be possible to prove conclusively that this person actually donated money to Labour. However, I think it will be much easier to prove that this person attended a Labour party function where donors were brought for the purpose of donating money. This, in itself, will raise serious questions as there is a strong implication that he would have donated money, along with others.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:01 pm
Is this man wanter for anything illegal? Did he pull the legs off spiders, interpol want him because he’s got really bad shirts that just piss off immigration everytime he leaves the country?
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:02 pm
Paul, they are probably waiting for the release of TGIF later tonight. The media are mostly lazy and if someone has already done all the work, why should they bother.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:05 pm
Just remind me again of the ethnicity of the current owner of Vector Power?
At least a power company for the Capital could never be deemed a Strategic Asset.
Just amazing. And the standard bearers keep rattling on about a few Rail shares.
Trust, they look after their own.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:05 pm
Paul – this bloke brought his residency? Think about it you blinded Helengrad puppet. You are full of shit and a paid blogger for Aunty Helen’s army of twisted cowards.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
HEY PEEPLES! LISTEN UP!
Read: tvnz.co.nz/view/page/423466/1726352 !!!
MSM, and you, and Ian Wishart(!) have all missed the connection, Mary Anne Thompson.
What was good for the goose, was also thought to be good for the gander.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:08 pm
Nicky Hager epitomises the Michael-Mooresque leftist spin merchants who distort half truths into their own Nazi style propaganda than Heinrich Himler would be proud of.
Vote:Nicky Hager have ethics? what a fucking joke.
GIMME A BREAK!!!
October 17th, 2008 at 9:11 pm
Cash for questions nearly brought down Tony Blair.
Cash for Peerages got even closer to bringing them down.
Cash for Residency or Citizenship? This is going to be Interesting.
But didn’t JK buy and sell some shares in a mickey mouse railway?
FFS at least he didn’t plan to spend $2m on a crock of rubbish called Kiwirail.
How much is going to cost each user net of revenue. I shudder to think.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:11 pm
Good diversion, blame Mary Anne Thompson, after all, she has already been ex communicated, no blame on Labour, move on. What are the odds on this?
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:13 pm
“Paul (1249) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 2 Says:
October 17th, 2008 at 8:41 pm
I’ve got two passports, my brother has two passports and a good friend has 3 passports. I think I should be packing my bag and walking straight to the prison, this seems to be a scandal offence now.”
Paul. I would bet your passports all have the same name and the same date of birth, as would your brother and your friend.
This guy has different names, and different DOB. He has not clarified this situation, he should not have citizenship. If this situation is not brought to light, will we become a bolt-hole for the dodgy with the only prerequisite being a donation to the ruling party? Please tell me you do not want to see this happening in this country.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:14 pm
Just imagine the Labour spin doctors right now? Bullshit and jelly beans tomorrow, move on, hehehe….
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:15 pm
sweetd
You dont think M A T was H2′s stool pidgeon, but went a bridge too far?
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:17 pm
H2 hunting season starts when?
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:19 pm
Only thing I can find on the wire is from NBR quoting NZPA
“Internal Affairs Minister Rick Barker has taken the unusual step of issuing a statement which relates to a report to be published in a weekly newspaper tomorrow.
Vote:Mr Barker said he was issuing the statement in response to questions from the media about the circumstances in which Mr Yang Liu was granted residency and citizenship.
“There is an ongoing investigation into the possibility of immigration fraud in this case,” Mr Barker said.
“That may result in a prosecution and/or revocation of residency status.
“Where a case for revocation is established, this may provide a basis to deprive a person of their citizenship.”
Mr Barker said he did not want to jeopardise this process and there would be no further comment from ministers.
He did set out some facts regarding Mr Liu’s circumstances.
* Mr Liu applied for permanent residency in January 2002 and it was granted in June 2002. The decision was made by an immigration officer.
* Mr Liu applied for citizenship in May 2005 and it was approved on August 6, 2008.
* Mr Liu swore the oath of allegiance on August 11.
“All citizenship decisions are made by the Minister of Internal Affairs, except where there may be an actual or perceived conflict of interest,” Mr Barker said.
“In that circumstance, a decision on a citizenship application is made by another minister acting under delegated authority. A general delegation to the Hon Shane Jones was in place.”
October 17th, 2008 at 9:20 pm
A man doesn’t use cross-border aliases for fun.
If this is true this is huge.
The media are probably keeping silent until they understand the story.
This is fun.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:21 pm
Watch her run when the Nats win 55% of the party vote!
I bet she has already bought a ticket and changed her money.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:23 pm
This story has huge consequences for the good name of New Zealand. Sit back and enjoy the Queen Bee crack up.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:25 pm
Why does this administration have so much regard for China, and yet disdain for a Canadian Pension Fund?
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:25 pm
The shit is about to hit the fan.
From Barker’s statement: “Mr Barker said he was issuing the statement in response to questions from the media about the circumstances in which Mr Yang Liu was granted residency and citizenship.”
MSM are interested, all right.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:25 pm
d4j
QB’s crack up would be a little too graphic for me!
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:28 pm
CR – it would make the great fall of Humpty Dumpty seem rather trivial in comparison.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:28 pm
This election is all about Trust!
Trust, Trust, and Trust.
We trust Labour and Winston First to be as corrupt as each other!
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:30 pm
“not one single major news organisation has picked it up – now I wonder why?”
Pauls got that “Oh Fuck” sinking feeling right about now!
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:31 pm
I downloaded the audio file andlistened very carefully to Wishart talking to Williams.
Sounds to me that proving if the Chinese guy gave money to Labour and how much isn’t going to be easy to prove without any documentation unless a witness comes forward. Though if Wishart has strong proof that this Chinese guy knew Labour MP’s and/or Ministers more than just casually then whoever the Minister was who made the actual decision he/she isn’t in a very good position.
On one level there could be a strong case to suggest that the Minister could have made one very lousy decision. If the Minister is seen to be in anyway to be doing this guy a ‘favour’ of any kind then this politically doesn’t look good.
Regardless of the outcome Labour won’t want this in the MSM as it’s something else they have to defend and could prove to be a distraction.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:32 pm
Toad I’d be really interested in understanding why the hell intelligent lefties like you continue to turn a blind eye to this corruption?
I mean it’s fucking obvious period and IMO quite undeniable going back to the speeding convoy that blemished the careers of innocent professionals when all she had to do was say ‘I ordered it.’ Even if she hadn’t it would have been the humane thing to do, wouldn’t it. I’d like to follow a leader who was prepared to do that. Instead Hulun let me down. Then the rot set in to culminate in this latest.
How can you guys (i.e. intelligent lefties) really really really think that Hulun has been straight up with anything? I just don’t get it.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:35 pm
Go on Toad, answer Reid’s question honestly. Surely you cannot defend the indefensible Klark regime?
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:39 pm
Here is the full text of the statement from Rick Barker released tonight:
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:41 pm
“In order to not jeopardise this ongoing process, there will be no further comment from Ministers.”
Yeah right another whitewash. Yawn, yawn.
In other words the minister of courts will arrange things later.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:42 pm
Convicted Radical
Makes sense if you can pin the blame on the Civil Service, especially if they are already damned. Much better than getting any mud on yourself. As we know Clark’s m/o, limit the blame to herself, much better someone else take the blame, the further away from her the better. She needs an investigation into this like she needs a hole in the head now (although…..), so she will attack Wishart for having no proof, nothing illegal was done (proof?), no monies were ever passed to Labour (proof?, very tricky this one), and if it was found he shouldn’t have been given citizenship, it would be a systemic failure. If there is any dirt that sticks, then pass it to the police to investigate, and as it would be part of an on going police investigation, no one, especially Clark would be able to comment.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:42 pm
Lindsay “Sounds to me that proving if the Chinese guy gave money to Labour and how much isn’t going to be easy”
Given the way Labour set it up so the donations could be “anonymous”, it would probably be enough to prove he was at the meeting and likely to be considered a donor.
Lindsay “On one level there could be a strong case to suggest that the Minister could have made one very lousy decision. If the Minister is seen to be in anyway to be doing this guy a ‘favour’ of any kind then this politically doesn’t look good.”
Yeah. So either the Minister is retarded or corrupt. Either way, it is not a good look.
Get the popcorn out everyone.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
Sorry people, there is an investigation under way, so i cant comment. Nothing to see here. Move on, vote left, vote corruption.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:45 pm
Lindsay Addie
Bugger me, you beat me to it. I just posted why the Government won’t comment on it, and, well blow me down, there it is!!!!! Feck sake, it is getting easier to predict this Labour Government in how they defer scandals.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:45 pm
Clark must have been on Barkers hammer – he has never been noticed as the fastest man out of the blocks in Hastings. Perhaps he got the same treatment as Shane Jones over the `dribbly showers’.
Two Ministers stirred up in 5 days – how many more to come in the 23 days before they are `done and dusted’ and we have a Government we can trust led by John Key and verly ably supported by Rodney Hide and Roger Douglas.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:46 pm
Helengrad is a scandal God?
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:48 pm
Rick Barker was Minister of Internal Affairs 2005. Is he acknowledging he had a conflict of interest in this application?
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:49 pm
Oh bugger!
I gave them an escape on a plate.
I should become a spin doctor….
… working for JK, of course!
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:49 pm
What we all need to do next week is flood the media with e-mails about this, ring up talk-back etc. Keep it in the headlines.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:54 pm
“Quite Frankly New Zealanders are sick and tired of hearing about this Immigration Issue., and so am I!”
Good day to all you media types.
Stop shouting over me! You may do that at home but you’ll never do it to me.
Your questions are all lies!
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 9:57 pm
Patrick Starr,
Sounds like you may be right saying there was a possible conflict of interest. Did Barker already know Liu?
The press release from Barker reads in a way that Sir Humphrey Appleby would’ve been proud of. That is a lot of words but no real substance to it.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 10:01 pm
The only person posting on “the standard” lately has been me!! Looks like they’ve suddenly got distracted.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 10:08 pm
The press release makes me think that the Barker knows nothing about this. This press release is all about filling the vacumn with something, anything. The press release is all cut and paste, and as Lindsay Addie comments, adds nothing. Me thinking that a few people are working overtime tonight. I think Barker is too much of an idiot to decide this on his own, my feeling is that he was told what to do in this case. If Shane Jones has been given a hospital pass, it would end a promissing political career, oh well.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 10:12 pm
Yeah, I see your work over there tknorris. I don’t like posting there; it gives me a nasty itichy rash.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 10:12 pm
This is such a big scandal.
Mr Liu had residence. He therefore could not be deported.
He then applied for citizenship.
He apparently has two or more passports.
Many chinese are in this situation.
He may have attended a Labour Party fundraiser. I have not been to one yet where visitors had to present a passport and declare that they did not have a second passport.
He may or may not have bought a bottle of wine either with kiwi cash or chinese gold but more likely with kiwi cash.
Helen is directly implicated without a skerret of evidence that she (a) knew or had met Mr Liu or (b) was at the particular fundraiser.
I feel like that I am on drugs in even taking part in this debate. We should talk about real incidents of corruption like … Key selling Transrail shares based on insider information that he received as an MP and then lying to try and hide the transaction. Where is Wishart when there is real corruption happening?
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 10:15 pm
michysavage, it’s all the stuff between your 2nd line and 5th line that you conveniently left out…
weeeeeeeee…..plonk!
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
Mickysavage
It helps if you read the basic facts as they are known. DPF posted them at this top of this thread if you need to revise.
“He apparently has two or more passports.
Many chinese are in this situation.”
1.A Chinese gentleman has had problems with Australian immigration as he travels under different names, different passports with different dates of births.
4.DIA recommended he be turned down due to the multiple aliases
“Helen is directly implicated without a skerret of evidence that she (a) knew or had met Mr Liu or (b) was at the particular fundraiser.”
No one has mentioned that HC is implicated. What people are saying is the mud will stick, as she is the leader of the Labour Party, y’know, the court of public opinion.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 10:22 pm
Mick savage. It must be a horrible feeling taking drugs to cope with the exposure of corruption in your sordid little pinko party. Problem with your dismissal is the letters recommending decline of citizenship/residency from DIA that Wishart seems to have copies of
Vote:I can’t see where Helen has been implicated though. Looks more like Rick Barker and Shane Jones got Taitoed this time.
Helens far too slippery for an easy scalp from Wishart
October 17th, 2008 at 10:26 pm
Micky Taker
“I feel like that I am on drugs in even taking part in this debate. We should talk about real incidents of corruption like … Key selling Transrail shares based on insider information that he received as an MP and then lying to try and hide the transaction. Where is Wishart when there is real corruption happening?”
The real scandal is Cullender buying the assets of a defunct run down railway at 6x the valuation!
Spending a Billion round one, and then supporting a CEO in plans to spend another £1bn on remodelling.
And all the time knowing that cupboard was bare.
So the Greens wanted it? How much will it cost each railway user or taxpayer over the next 10 years?
Is that why the TREASURY FORECAST is so horrible?
Reckless, and quite possibly the biggest scandal this parliament.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 10:27 pm
Shit, just as well this election is all about trust otherwise the WHOLE labour party would have been involved….
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 10:29 pm
Mr Liu applied for permanent residency in January 2002 and it was granted in June 2002. The decision was made by an immigration officer.
Vote:The spin has started already. If they can’t sack Winston for telling lies then this one won’t go too far, i suspect.
October 17th, 2008 at 10:29 pm
And even Cullender stated that this Key Tranzrail share issue was in NO WAY insider trading.
You are struggling as normal. It is like being savaged by a sheep!
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
PS it seems that some have formed a conclusion based on a description of a letter by Ian Wishart without actually reading the letter.
MPs get asked all the time to provide letters of support. They go along the lines of “I have been asked to provide support for Mr X in his application for citizenship. I have met Mr X and he seems like a decent person …” Not much weight is placed on these letters.
If Mr Liu received residence then he must have got through all of the security checks.
Or do I sense a new conspiracy, that Immigration passed Mr Liu when he was obviously an operative for Al Quaeda and Bin Laden’s right (or left?) hand man (or person?) in instructions from Helen Klark (whoever she is?)
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 10:33 pm
That’s right tricky micky mouse make a joke of it. How long can this Nation endure such corruption from state officials?
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 10:34 pm
“He apparently has two or more passports.”
“Many chinese (sic) are in this situation.”
Indeed, we double as Koreans and Japanese all the time.. true, and if anyone dares to pursue this story any further, then you’re a grubby little racist.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 10:35 pm
Mr Liu obviously gave the right answer to the red hot issue of the day.
What were your thoughts on the Springbok tour?
So very important in the 21st Century. When the Boks have been excellent competitors in the Tri Nations.
Fucking pathetic. Perhaps Mr Liu likes fake art?
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 10:38 pm
Glutaemus Maximus
The biggest scandal is selling the railway in the first place to Faye Richwhite et al and then standing back while they ran the railway system into the ground and then having to buy it back again. The next government that proposes privatisation will face a lynching. Perhaps that is why Key is avoiding the P word.
New Zealand Inc has precious little public assets left. Getting any of our assets back into public ownership is worth the price.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 10:42 pm
“it seems that some have formed a conclusion based on a description of a letter by Ian Wishart without actually reading the letter”
Trouble is Micky, you feel like you are on drugs and are failing to actually read the comments
Like: why would Rick Barker bother issuing a press statement on the strength of Ian Wisharts claim?
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 10:42 pm
toad
Can you answer reid’s question ?
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 10:42 pm
Glutaemus Maximus
You miss the point.
The only 47 year olds who cannot remember their views on the springbok tour are still in a coma.
Key’s statements have been lies. He is not being judged on his views on the tour, just his inability to tell the truth because he thinks there may be a political advantage.
And you wingnuts talk about corruption and standards …
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 10:44 pm
Mickysavage
Who the feck cares who owns the assets!?!?!? Why is ownership of public assets such a big issue for socialists? Just because someone else owns it, they can’t take it away with them. Were you afarid the nasty Canuks would pack up Auckland Airport and send it off to Torronto? If you want it, buy some shares in it, assuming you can afford any. That would be a lot cheaper than paying six times the face value for it.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 10:45 pm
I guess the real difference between us is that you are being paid to blog by the TAXPAYER.
That is why you come across as so disingenuine.
All your words are lies. Propaganda, and Spin. But guess as a chief communications offcer that is why you get paid so well.
How much did Toll pay for the model railway? How much track fees did they pay annually?
So if Cullender had paid 20x valuation that would have been equally acceptable? Bullshit. Bet you have never had to find payroll evrey week have you boy?
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 10:46 pm
And all the time the Labour drones have been analyzing the minutest utterance and movement from John Key, seeking to pounce on every slightest hint of a contradiction. Plus, those pathetic tapes from the National Conference.
All this drivel pales into insignificance compared to the blatant corruption obvious in this saga.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 10:48 pm
hmmmm….. interesting…. the Labour press release says that Ministers will be making no further comment and then all of a sudden the posting stops on The (sub)Standard
I think I’ll listen to some music… Talking Heads – Burning Down The House seems kinda appropriate.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 10:48 pm
I was pro-tour, went to the Eden Park test and threw full beer cans at the fuckwits disrupting the game, So What????
Key said he was mildly pro tour, – which means he didnt really give a fuck
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 10:49 pm
the real scandal is that y’all are not posting under my username or some derivative thereof.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 10:51 pm
“The biggest scandal is selling the railway in the first place to Faye Richwhite et al and then standing back while they ran the railway system into the ground and then having to buy it back again”
For fuck sake, NZ rail was losing $1000,000 a day in 1983. Oh ! How I long for a return to such halcyon days.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 10:51 pm
If Nationalisation is so good for any economy, why did all the SOE’s in the UK do so much better when privatised.
Even Labour are now considering breaking up the NHS, as it is too unwieldy, ineffective and gobbles cash.
Sound familiar?
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 10:52 pm
The real scandal is the lefties are dissembling like mad. Mickey’s trying to turn this into a Key debate.
Hey lefties, we’re winning, you’re losing. Eat that.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 10:55 pm
Savage, if you actually listened to the interview, you would note that the passports apparently had different dates of birth and names on them. There is no legitimate reason for a person to have several passports pertaining to several completely independent identities. Anyone who does should fail the good character test for citizenship. The important point is that inspite of this, these two cabinet ministers decided (for reasons unknown) that they would grant him citizenship against the wishes of the department involved when he clearly had a questionable character. We then find out that applicant knew one of the ministers personally, which made an obvious conflict of interest, and yet that minister did not abdicate his decision making position. It also turns out that this man attended labour party fundraisers. It maybe impossible to link the last part with the decision since we dont know if or how much he donated (and labour complain about national’s anonymous fundraising). However I cannot see any legitimate reason for allowing a man citizenship who has fake identities and passports for them, and who has an arrest warrent issued at the time through interpol.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 10:58 pm
the real scandal is that the right wants socialism for the rich and capitalism for everyone else.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 10:59 pm
“I was pro-tour, went to the Eden Park test and threw full beer cans at the fuckwits disrupting the game, So What????”
Hewson winning it in the last minute was great. I’ll never forget Keith Quinn’s comment ” HE’S DUNN IT”
As for the protests; it started with good intentions, but soon became jaundiced by far left ideologues keen to bring on the revolution, coupled with thugs wanting to have a go at the cops free from any repercussions.
Really, how outspoken has Minto been on racism ever since?
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 10:59 pm
This particular Labour party fundraiser was invite-only.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 11:00 pm
If I had a gun on that day there is a plane that would have a bullet hole in it
The fully patched gang members on the front line of the protesters sort of devalued any credibility there.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 11:01 pm
John Key bought and sold shares! Wooo Hoooo!
Cullen dropped his pants and got the taxpayer raped on the shares by the Aussies.
Trust is important. All the surpluses have vanished and the deficits are now clear to see.
But we are supposed to trust the incumbents to run the economy in very testing times.
Yeah Right!
Time to import another Chinese/Taiwanese/Korean donor or ten.
Great citizens. So attractive, and so welcome.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 11:03 pm
“the real scandal is that the right wants socialism for the rich and capitalism for everyone else”
That’s wight idiotboy, it’s the greedy bankers.
idiotboy is now approaching self-fulfilling prophecy at light-speed.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 11:06 pm
Mickey Savage writes: Key selling Transrail shares based on insider information that he received as an MP and then lying to try and hide the transaction. Where is Wishart when there is real corruption happening?
Just as the real Mickey Savage went mad in office (as told by John A. Lee, which got him expelled from Labour), this blog’s Mickey Savage is crazy, even if this is just an attempt to divert attention from a deepening Labour scandal.
Key would have acted acted against his own interest by selling the shares. In fact an independent agent handling his interests would have lost by selling them. If there was inside information and Key was making the decision, he would NOT have sold any shares.
But this is a technical trifle compared with the ongoing vast corruption in New Zealand immigration under Labour. Get on track Mickey Savage. And the real hero of Labour in the 1930s was war hero John A. Lee, not Mickey Savage who like many a despot, sank fast into mental decay.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 11:10 pm
the real scandal is: there is no real scandal.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 11:11 pm
Good point ib. Certainly nothing at all, to see, round here, in any way, whatsoever.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 11:13 pm
Believe what you like idiotboy.
This scandal makes no difference to you or me.
There might be a couple of hundred thousand undecided voters who choose to be interested though.
It’s all about trust.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 11:15 pm
idiotboy
For what reason is all that about socialism, capitalism, rich or poor in society. It’s about allegations current ministers have been involved in some smelly immigration deals. The actual parties the ministers are in is actually irrelevant. If we had a National govt then would you be off now chattering about Labour MP’s having done something that a National minister had already said wasn’t insider trading?
This is about corruption, not politics.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 11:20 pm
Time to leave the debate Idiotboy. There is nothing happening here.
The weekend might be very different. The MSM will be wanting to dig a little deeper.
Feels good. Fast Track Immigration of an undesirable. What could be the motive?
Good English skills? Knowledge of precursors? Ability to chop peole up into handy sized suitcases?
When there areso many being declined what could be the reason? At least with Thompson is was naked Nepotism.
Has she proved her Doctorate yet? And where is our $158 k Winston?
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 11:21 pm
Burt – The left believe the ends justify the means. Comrade Trotter said so. Clark’s goons prove that corruption are her MO. They are ethically shipwrecked and morally bankrupt. Liars, thieves and soon to be consigned to our political dustbin.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 11:23 pm
There’d have to be more than that number wouldn’t you’d think getstaffed?.
This is the best campaign ever.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 11:24 pm
Yoohoo, lefties, yoohoo.
No-one wants to play.
Bastards.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 11:26 pm
Under any other normal circumstances this would probably indeed be a scandal. However, the problem with Labour is that they’ve been embroiled in so many scandals, of such magnatude, that one can’t help but feel underwhelmed by these latest revelations.
It’s kind of like reporting that a triple axe murderer has stolen a loaf of bread…..
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 11:26 pm
I believe Clark is implicated in this. As Minister of the SIS she will know that (and I’m quoting from http://www.nzsis.govt.nz) that it is responsible for “making recommendations relevant to security relating to immigration and citizenship matters “. Naturally they will have an opinion either way and if the DIA’s opinion is anything to go by, then the SIS will not be more lenient. Clark will ofo course have the plausible denial defence, but given her micro knowledge of a lot of governement, it is quite likely that she is aware of this case.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 11:27 pm
Wishart is starting to piss me off now!
Need some snowballs to throw at the Pinko’s
Come on Ian, Publish Now!
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 11:29 pm
a couple of things
if the MSM is all over this, it’s now close to 6hrs since this broke and only the NBR article still exists…
Stuff – nothing
herald – nothing
odt – nothing
tv3 site – nothing
scoop – nothing
tv1 – nothing
they’re so all over this they’ve all forgotten to press the publish button on their computers…
“indefensible Klark”. That would require us establishing who the Klark regime is, then we might be able to argue some points.
“What we all need to do next week is flood the media with e-mails about this, ring up talk-back etc. Keep it in the headlines” There is probably never a truer word spoken, because fuck all other people are even going to be bothered.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 11:30 pm
Clark not knowing would amaze me. Clark promoting it is a tad more debateable!
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 11:31 pm
They’re not wanting to prematurely publish Paul. That’s all.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 11:32 pm
Yeah reid, they clocked out. Hey let’s offer a troll amnesty: Come out waving a white flag, high and slow. Renounce you previously evil ways (incl grassing your paymasters) and we’ll sort you with a new identity, CV polishing and interview skills… and failing any solid offers, a job cleaning latrines at NZ prisons.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 11:40 pm
burt sir
kindly withdraw your baseless allegation that i might “be off” doing this that or the other – nothing what-so-ever that i have said previously could lead you to make such a tasteless, somewhat below-the-belt insinuation.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 11:41 pm
A lot of people said Wishart should have published his book closer to the election. Are we about to get the missing chapter?
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 11:42 pm
Clark knew about Owen Glenn donation, as it was her idea?
The slippery cow never ever came clean. Conflicting evidence from two honorable gentlemen.
At least with this one the ‘honorable label’ will be a tad harder to attach to Mr Woo/Chong/Tong/Ming/Xiu/Tui
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 11:45 pm
“Yeah reid, they clocked out”
Are you two joking. This is the premium time for any news room as they are getting ready for the 2am final edition to go to print. Also in the age of 24hr news there is no such thing as clocking off.
Why aren’t they even giving a mention to the ZB interview and subsequent press release. I’ve seen 1 paragraph political stories about a lot less just to get the story out there.
Funny this is from the stuff web site for the most views political stories of the day. Play the game boys and girls and spot the article that is favourable about Key or the Nats
1 Key told ‘outright fib’ on tv – Clark
2 Peters: Nats can’t keep changing stance
3 Clark finds gold on the campaign trail
4 Maori seats distort MMP – Dunne
5 Fox compares Clark, Horomia to Mugabe
6 Key makes Maori seat admission
7 Time to scrub divisive, race-based favouritism
8 ACT will back a Nat government
9 Peters back to his ‘bread and butter’
10 Key makes Maori seat admission
Now that is somewhat telling isn’t it. It’s not some pseudo scientific poll, this is their most viewed articles. Not one in the top ten is even a press release that is positive from National or attacking Labour.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 11:46 pm
Another 15 mins and Ian will need to rename his publication TGIS. Ah well. Tomorrow.
Edit: Paul I was suggesting that the trolls have clocked off. The MSM are no doubt working hard. Duncan Garner will almost certainly be laying out his collection of red ties in readiness for camera time tomorrow.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 11:48 pm
This is not a conviction by any means but will be interesting to see the msm reaction (or lack thereof). Somehow John Key seeing Lord Ashcroft became a story. Applying that standard this should be news – even if just playing Clark denials.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 11:50 pm
And a further point. If the boot, as it were, was on the other foot Clark and Labour would be repeating this as if it were gospel. The reality is that John Key simply doesn’t have the bullshit ability to do that.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 11:50 pm
I’m always serious Paul. I never laugh, ever.
Especially not now. Presuming Wishart backs this up this is huge.
If you don’t see that I suggest you take another look.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 11:52 pm
“The reality is that John Key simply doesn’t have the bullshit ability to do that.”
You reckon not GPT? He’ll learn.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 11:54 pm
Paul’s list of Stuff’s most-viewed political views of the day confirms what many of us think. The mainstream media is strongly left-wing biased, and that includes Stuff, which is merely an arm of the Fairfax print media chain.
If the stories are overwhelmingly pro-left, the statistics on stories read will match this.
BAs in political science and even softer subjects now dominate the mainstream media desks. These are overwhelmingly dull leftists, with chips on their shoulders because their Labour heroes don’t deliver the standard of living to which they feel entitled. The semi-apprenticeship schemes of old at least gave a closer match with a cross-section of society.
Hooray for the Free Blogosphere!
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 11:56 pm
Look if Wishart gets sued he goes broke. If Fairfacts gets sued it costs millions. This is explosive esp in an election context. This could cost an election. It probably won’t have had much net effect by the time it gets to polling day, but the media have to be responsible about how they deal with this.
That’s why they’re not rushing to print.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 11:57 pm
the real scandal is: ian wishart told you guys that this was…
“a massive story, implicating two current cabinet ministers and a former Labour cabinet minister, in an unprecedented political scandal… We have the documents and the bodies. Read the burial notice on the front page of TGIF EDITION…”
and you are all still grasping onto some vague and desperate hope that it might be true even though the evidence would suggest otherwise.
and the other real scandal: ian wishart laughing all the way to the bank at your expense.
Vote:October 17th, 2008 at 11:59 pm
idiotboy, Cullender is always laughing all the way to the bank with our money. And gets off on spending it on pet projects.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 12:01 am
I don’t even get excited at the prospect of another corrupt labour minister being exposed anymore. It’s all so ho hum now.
Vote:The only shame is Shane Jones adding to the disproportionate Maori MP stats.
October 18th, 2008 at 12:01 am
So let me guess, the Labour minister involved was only guilty of trying to help people.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 12:03 am
“even though the evidence would suggest otherwise”
wham, idiotboy hits the self-fulfilling-prophecy wall.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 12:04 am
Evidence? There is plenty of information now in the public domain, incl the govt waking up and issuing a statement about this matter. If you have evidence it’s all a massive fraud, then by all means, enlighten us idotboy. Or do you just have desperate, diversionary opinion to whimper to us?
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 12:07 am
“The only shame is Shane Jones adding to the disproportionate Maori MP stats”
Yeah but why would Shane have known a Chinese person like this? Who told him to let him through?
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 12:08 am
For the sake of idiotboy we shall cut through the process and go straight to next steps. OK lets assume if a court cases starts validations will be passed and it will be BAU in no time…. Whaarrrrrrp thanks for playing – Election is how many weeks?
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 12:11 am
reid is correct – follow the money, or at least the motive. What or who made him do this? The rest is bloody good stuff but ultimately circumstantial.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 12:12 am
Interesting to note that “Lim Nam Chhour” who made a donation of 10,008 to the Labour Party in 2005 was awarded a New Year’s honour at some point…
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 12:13 am
Glutaemus Maximus dear sir
i am somewhat perplexed at the liguistic origins of the term “Cullender”. I detect that there is some inference being made here toward that most honourable of gentlemen, one Micheal Cullen. What that inference might be I can only imagine. kindly lay your assertions bare, kind sir, so that i may rest easy in knowing wtf you are talking about.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 12:16 am
“The mainstream media is strongly left-wing biased,”
I haven’t done a count of the stories on the stuff site but this is one of the most prominent stories on the stuff election sub section.
“Six cops assaulted each day – Power” Why isn’t that in the top ten, it’s a hot topic.
This is another “Nats sharpen razor to trim government ‘waste’”, another supposedly sexy pro National story.
I love the neo-con blame everyone else, the commies, the pinko media, the other politicians, the teachers, the police, the crims etc etc but never accept that the Nats might just not be doing it.
This is about as scientific as it can be. Of the overwhelming weight of stories out there this was the top ten list. Either that or core nat voters don’t read online newspapers – and there could be something in that. But then core nat voters from Business NZ, Manufacturers and Exporters Association, ACT, Infometrics, Bernard Hickey, NBR have all been stung by National this week, it’s hard to guess outside of this exceedingly religious neo-con hive who is still going to vote for Mr Key and his shifting distortion field.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 12:18 am
idiotboy, don’t even bother there’s all manner of linguistic gymnastics here just to denigrate the other side. There’s someone called Klark. Funny though do a wiki search for Klark and the first on the list is Klark Kent – now that’s telling.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 12:23 am
Sorry guys. I am a National Supporter. But after hearing Ian Wishart’s interview with Lary, I don’t think there is a chance in hell, this story will not stand up. Ian was struggling against Lary’s questions to provide enough proof. He doesn’t have any proof that this guy paid donationt to Labour. He doesn’t have the DIA document which advises Minister that citizenship should not be given. Absolutely pathetic. Cullen will pooh pooh this in 30 seconds.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 12:23 am
Idiotboy
‘one Micheal Cullen’
Must be a different bloke.
Cullender is a good old anglo saxon word.
Look it up. On overtime now I guess?
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 12:25 am
Paul
Searching for Clark will also find this.
http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Helen_Clark
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 12:26 am
I can’t take credit for this late breaking story.
Here it finally is, you’re right this is freaking huge, I MEAN THIS IS MASSIVE! I was so so wrong, SORRY GUYS
Breaking news:
The Prime Minister has been forced to act, just days before the election! She has fired another Minister! Something to do with dodgy financial dealings and Chinese immigrants! It’s a disgrace! It’s time for a change!
I’m sure you will all join me in looking forward to a wonderful new Prime Minister, and a better New Zealand …
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/534531.stm
hat tip obsmacked
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 12:27 am
“bowl-shaped strainer; used to wash or drain foods”?
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 12:28 am
We all knew the MSM would resist this as much as they can. Plus, these things usually take a few days to really get going. People like Paul crowing because the MSM wasn’t all over it the second it came out are either ignorant, or just trolling. In his case I suspect both.
On another topic, if ever there was an example of how deeply the Greens truly despise Western civilisation and hate their own country it’s their just released population policy. They want to “encourage” (we know what that will mean) Kiwis to have as few children as possible, while at the same time flooding the country with “refugees”, who will mostly come from places like the Middle East and Somalia. In short, they want New Zealand and Maoridom to commit national suicide and turn the country into a terrorist ridden crap hole.
Nice.
Perhaps they should change their campaign posters and ads. Take out the kiwi girl and replace her with a Muslim man carrying an AK 47 with three wives wearing chadors. “Vote For Us” indeed.
I can’t wait to see the response from the Maori Party to this. Does anyone seriously think they are going to go into a coalition with a bunch of ultra-far left Marxists demanding the death of Aotearoa?
Pol Pot lover comrade Keith Locke opined that the Greens do not assume that New Zealand cultural values are superior to anyones elses.
Riiiight. Somalia and New Zealand are both equally wonderful places to live eh comrade?
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 12:29 am
The motive for this is most unclear n’est pas? Liarbore wouldn’t do this for a few grand donation and I find it hard to believe they’d ever do it knowingly.
So if it’s true, what’s going on? Is it a fuck-up, or something else?
…
What we need in this story is a car chase, a gunfight and a man with a briefcase, a playboy and a pie.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 12:32 am
You know Paul if you turn your writing backwards it keeps reading “I love John Key I love John Key..” over and over and over.
What’s that all about?
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 12:33 am
Paul: “Either that or core nat voters don’t read online newspapers”
We just don’t read pinko leftie biased ones!
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 12:38 am
Lee “MSM are very interested in this one. Get out the popcorn.”
This is from some right wing poster over at the standard, all over there to gloat.
I’ve got the popcorn, sad thing is that pinko brainwashed commie press other wise known as the free press to you and me, aren’t all over this.
The rest of your vile racist shit needs fucking tossing in the bin. By your filthy dirty and offensive implications all Muslim men that come to this country carry AK-47s and have several wives. The only people I know in this country with guns are National voting hunters and the only ones with more than one ‘wife’ are right wing religious christian wackos.
You filthy pathetic tosser.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 12:43 am
Ah so the headline from the NBR (not a pinko commie newspaper)
Election handouts just took a terrifying turn
Wednesday October 15 2008 – 03:54pm
National’s announcement it will change the law to direct the Super Fund to invest at least 40% of its assets in New Zealand is positively blood-curdling.
Hope you took it on the chin for the stinging, no sod that damming criticism it was.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 12:49 am
ried,
if we put Wishart on a record player and stuck a needle in him and spun him backwards he would sing “Its my sweet Satan…” from stairway to heaven.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 12:51 am
Why would you imagine conservatives give a shit about that Paul? Don’t you get it?
We agree with the perspective of the business community who see state involvement and intervention as undesirable for proven over hundreds of years the efficiency and productivity of state vs private is not comparable.
Being versed in real-world as opposed to idealistic aka fantasy economics, conservatives are also sensitive to the exigencies of the moment. Therefore I myself are comfortable with and support this.
Liabore’s central issue to me is the pork-barreling it did during the good times. Quite unnecessary, and reveals a disturbing depth of self-interest that I don’t want governing my country.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 1:00 am
Paul,
“The rest of your vile racist shit”
Islam is a religion not a race. Someone who was a school teacher should know the difference. Oh, wait, then again…
“By your filthy dirty”
I’m curious how words can be filthy and dirty. I had another look, and the letters all look clean and crisp to me. Or are you having another one of your Freudian meltdowns. I’m deeply concerned for your mental state Paul.
“you implications all Muslim men that come to this country carry AK-47s and have several wives”
I didn’t. I said thats what they do in their own countries (ever seen a news item about Somalia?) and if enough of them come here they will start the same shit. As they are in Europe.
“The only people I know in this country with guns are National voting hunters”
Yes, but they hunt animals Paul, not “Jews and Infidels”. Bit of a difference.
“and the only ones with more than one ‘wife’ are right wing religious christian wackos”
Really? I know a lot of conservative Christians, and none of them have more than one wife. Perhaps your thinking of that tiny bunch of hippies on the West Coast. Their not actually “right wing” Christians bud.
“You filthy pathetic tosser.”
Now theres that Freudian, mouth foaming rage again. Are sure you shouldn’t be in therapy? Or on some kind of medication perhaps?
And again, you haven’t answered my question. Why do you come here if your going to go and get all offended and upset all the time?
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 1:00 am
Well Paul,
You deserve a medal, and a lot of credit for all your distractions.
Why don’t you just stay on your own idealogue web area?
Guess the boss pays you more of our money to post on here?
Do you get paid by word? Postings? or Reactions?
Whats the difference between a 9th Floor Blogger and a Supermarket Trolley?
The Trolley has a mind of its own!
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 1:03 am
http://www.newseum.org/todaysfrontpages/pop_up.asp?fpVname=CO_RMN&ref_pge=map&tfp_map=NorthAmerica
now there’s a political scandal…
FFS, I don’t even vote Labour – tosser.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 1:05 am
and I though god and western religions were all about compassion -shows I knew fuck all.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 1:09 am
“FFS, I don’t even vote Labour – tosser.”
Well you sure don’t act like you understand where we come from, so where DO you lie Paul. Um, Winston?
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 1:09 am
“and I though god and western religions were all about compassion -shows I knew fuck all.”
No, you’re right Paul.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 1:10 am
Lee.
Paul is a ranter. most people ignore him, some poke stick to get a reaction. I like giving him a good kicking! – but truth be known he’s a complete fruitcake.
Check out his site some time! You’ll see his vile rantings and realise what a loose unit he really is
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 1:14 am
Paul, you should change your username to IDIOTBOY!
Also on NBR a day later: http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/think-tank-supports-super-fund-policy-36557
Think-tank supports Super Fund policy
NZPA | Thursday October 16 2008 – 09:04am
National’s plan to order the New Zealand Super Fund to invest 40 percent of its cash in the local economy has won endorsement of an economic think-tank.
New Zealand Institute chief executive David Skilling today said the plan had merit. The institute called for similar measures in a draft report on the global financial crisis last week.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 1:20 am
I think he’s actually Philus alter ego, like think of how close they are. Both are bottom of the barrel bloggers, both vote greens, both are complete ravers and Paul earlier admitted he holds two passports – besides ………….. have any of you seen them both together?
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 1:25 am
“http://www.newseum.org/todaysfrontpages/pop_up.asp?fpVname=CO_RMN&ref_pge=map&tfp_map=NorthAmerica
now there’s a political scandal…”
Why are we supposed to be concerned about some silly sex scandal in the US? It’s hardly going to effect the election here now is it.
“and I though god and western religions”
Not quite sure what your talking about here. Zeus? The worship of Odin? Tree huggers?
I’m a Christian, which is actually a Middle Eastern religion.
As to compassion, I have watched this lefty government allow hundreds of Muslims come here, often for no particularly good reason, while at the same time turning away many real refugees, including many Middle Eastern Christian converts, and effectively sending them to their deaths.
I have no problem with taking in genuine refugees, and in fact my church has helped refugee families settle here. But the Greens policy of lifting the numbers by a third while at the same time “encouraging” kiwi families not to breed is unforgivably stupid and evil, and reflects the standard Marxist hatred of the West. It has nothing at all to do with compassion.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 1:33 am
Patrick, Paul is Philu’s bumboy.
Paul’s also a terrorist hugging pinko Greenie loonie.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 1:33 am
“Lee. Paul is a ranter. most people ignore him,”
I know. But he makes such funny noises when you poke him
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 1:40 am
On his blog he actually says “some people thought Key won the debate”.
Yeah, like almost the entire country.
Seriously delusional.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 3:38 am
We all know that LABOUR IS CORRUPT.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 4:07 am
Paul compares Jenny Shiply to Hulun Klark – quite correctly.
Paul (1259) Vote: 0 4 Says:
October 18th, 2008 at 12:26 am
I can’t take credit for this late breaking story.
Here it finally is, you’re right this is freaking huge, I MEAN THIS IS MASSIVE! I was so so wrong, SORRY GUYS
Breaking news:
The Prime Minister has been forced to act, just days before the election! She has fired another Minister! Something to do with dodgy financial dealings and Chinese immigrants! It’s a disgrace! It’s time for a change!
I’m sure you will all join me in looking forward to a wonderful new Prime Minister, and a better New Zealand …
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/534531.stm
hat tip obsmacked
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 4:21 am
Expat
Interesting story.
Vote:What will our PM do now?
It’s getting harder and harder to shut down the stories surrounding her government ministers.
I certainly hope she won’t be shouting at any of them.
October 18th, 2008 at 4:42 am
The scandal breaks:
Minister: We’re checking for fraud
Naughty naughty.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 5:00 am
Anyone received the email yet?
Frustrating being at work till 8.00am…knew I should have subscribed with a Gmail account rather than my home one
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 5:12 am
Dover & Jones involved…hmmm
Surely those two fine upstanding gentlemen wouldn’t be guilty of accepting backhanders?
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 7:01 am
> Mr Barker said an investigation was being made into “the possibility of immigration fraud in this case”.
On the part of whom, the Minister, the immigrant, or both?
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 7:12 am
Not looking good for Labour according to stuff, and that’s before the scandal broke:
Labour ends first week still on the back foot
“Miss Clark was scathing yesterday of Mr Key’s campaigning style, accusing him of hiding behind National Party stalwarts.
“I’m watching that other campaign – it’s all behind closed doors. Sometimes they get brave enough to walk through a shopping mall.”"
Hels appears to be specialising in BITTER.
Way to try and win an election Hels.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 7:22 am
The missing link?
Do Dover, Jones et al do anything fishy in Northland without the rest of the whanau knowing?
No not really cause we hui about everything!!! (you pay of course.)
Now who else would hui in Northland. Not yet a cabinet minister but; “Mum says go with Labour sonny boy”
Could well be out of the loop of course but how would we know?
Just acknowledging the Pita Principle.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 7:25 am
So funny…HellBent visited my wife’s workplace yesterday and talk about STAGED! Police & security pre-visits, plus interoffice notices on what sort of clothing to wear.
She struggled to even find a worker willing to have a photo taken with her…most of them stayed away and went hungry rather than turn up at the cafe
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 7:46 am
TVNZ “Outgoing Labour MP Dover Samuels, who supported the man’s citizenship, says Liu was fostered out as a child and this had led to confusion over his identity”.
Does Dover think he’s still pissing in a pot plant FFS? In other words; I’m so confused I took out a passport for every occasion
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 7:56 am
The media won’t do anything. It will be published on the 3 or 6th page on a small article. This will blow over. The news wouldn’t let Hallow Men go, they kept printing story after story. Absolute Power got very little coverage… it was blown over. This will be blown over. If John Key farts the wrong way, the news media will make it front page news. Helen Clark can commit murder and that would be just mildly reported. Very biased biased, shallow, and arrogant reporting.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 8:11 am
The CLARK/PETERS AXIS represents:
NZ First policy makes headlines in Asia
Nice going Labour and Winston First. How much more profitable is Fonterra going to be in China now?
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 8:11 am
You hit the nail on the head jackp, I have never seen an election where coverage was so one-sided and biased or where censorship by the liberal media was so widely practiced and where media coverage was so slanted as I have seen in this election process. Ian Wishart is inspirational, the book Absolute Power highlights a shady regime of cover ups and cop outs, now this, boy who said kiwi’s accept unscrupulous government? The media are a disgrace and the government are criminals!!
Edit – TOAD can you answer reid’s question thank you? Yeah right!!!
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 8:11 am
My, my Well now Dover has good mate that hails from the far North, who likes racehorse owners, but until recent times was a resident of much sunnier climes in a plentiful area. Again one of the whanau.
Vote:There appears to be a series of dots here starting to join up.
Perhaps whaleoil could find some fish oil to pass onto Raw Prawn for LIARBOURS SALAD. Well the excuses are getting about as limp as week old lettuce.
I never did like sushi.
time to Scampi off and earn some meoney to pay the socialists tax. Not too much of course.
October 18th, 2008 at 8:14 am
Oh, I forgot to ask!
Vote:Do North Korean’s eat fish?
And has anyone seen Condy lately?
October 18th, 2008 at 8:41 am
This rather idiotic remark is downright pathetic:
Diddums Mr Liu.
Also how can an individual who has an identity crisis and who clearly needs psychological help be able to make a lot of money and figure out complex real estate and business deals?
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 8:49 am
Currently 5th most popular story on the Heralds site
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10538152
(keep clicking boys!)
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 9:15 am
More news over at No Minister:
Shifty, Corrupt, Manipulative
Not looking good for Labour.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 9:33 am
seems like more of ian wisharts bollocks bleating to me. Maybe if he wasn’t such a fundy chrstian tosser who’s more loose with the facts than bad diarrhea he might have some credibility
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 9:34 am
Now lets’s see which of the MSMs will cover this story the best
Duncan Garner at TV3 (His blog email)
support@decision08.co.nz
or Guyon Espiner at TV1 (TVNZ contact form)
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/816462/869443
Be sure to email both networks demanding to see coverage of this story.
Vote:They will fall over themselves to try and out do each other of this.
Let’s keep up the heat.
This story has legs – big fat hairy ones!
October 18th, 2008 at 10:01 am
Now who was the Minister who signed off Taito’s deals and how long ago was that ? Don’t expect any early answers
Vote:to either episodes.The corruption is endless.
October 18th, 2008 at 10:15 am
somewhatstupid, you can choose to ignore what you wish and spin the facts to suit, but even Labour themselves have admitted that there’s a serious issue to be INVESTIGATED here: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10538152
When National get in next month I want a referendum introduced that looks at how we deal with the 40% of the lunatics running loose on the streets of NZ!
First suggestion is to ban them from being allowed to BLOG
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 10:21 am
Good idea damnedangry!!! It will be great to know that filth merchants like wishart are put in their place. Oh and i’ve read the herald story, when you strip away wishart and all you guys conspiring and filth it doesn’t seem quite like the silver bullet you’re all hoping for.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 10:25 am
Grow up and change your nappies you stupid boy!
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 10:27 am
somewhatstupid,
That is Labour’s best spin on the story. Quite frankly, if that was all there was to it, there would be reason to be very concerned.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 10:27 am
actually it’s amazing how much more serious you guys can make something seem as you throw your buzzwords around (filth, corruption, conspiracy (oh wait….) etc.)
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 10:31 am
aww d4j, does somebody need a toke? you seem wound up about something
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 10:34 am
totallystupid, what’s more amazing is that there are people like you living next door to us that are obviously complete nutters!
I worry that my family are safe
Next referendum: Make Tazers legal for law abiding citizens
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 10:35 am
somewhatdorkful ;go away you stupid boy !! Are you James Sleep in disguise you turd tosser.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 10:45 am
wow, now there’s a reasoned answer da: vigilante justice based on ill-conceived and informed political prejudices, genius! You should work for sensible sentencing. then again, it’s not like they’re short of crackpot “tough on crime” ideas themselves.
d4j, don’t be so angry, now you may do that at home…see what i did there? also turd tosser? please are you that tempted by the penises that you see at the pool and the gym that you have to resort to insulting people and accusing them of being homosexual? “oh no, he accused me of being something which i’m not, whatever will i do!!!”. git.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 10:49 am
“does somebody need a toke?”
Needless to say he was a pupil in Paul the teachers class?Maybe Phool’s son? You are not worth the demerits you silly boy. Goodbye and try and have a good day. Your stupidity and naivety is far too pitiful to watch.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 10:53 am
oh now the moral high ground, gosh it’s like watch john key deal with something that wasn’t scripted! Are you secretly john key?
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 11:00 am
Yes I am John Key you stupid drug – induced Liarbour Lickspittle.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 11:02 am
Ah yes Ian is “making it all up” again.
And how many times has he been taken to court for all these so called lies?
Odd considering the lefties fondness for calling in the lawyers… with our money.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 11:20 am
DamnedAngry (72) Vote:
Agreed – perhaps to validate the decision of the “Truth & Retrobution” tribunal of citizens against corruption!
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 11:39 am
Bad news for the Greens:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz-election-2008/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501799&objectid=10538144
I love this bit: “National, Act and the Maori Party described it as a step towards population control”
Look at that triumvirate! Labour/Green trolls who think these parties will never see eye to eye or cannot work together are deluding themselves.
“Maori Party co-leader Tariana Turia said it was a case of “middle-class” Greens trying to tell others how big their families should be.They want to increase numbers of people coming in from the outside but they’re trying to stop people in this country from having the family size they want. Well, it’s none of their business.”
Damn right.
The idea that before married couples have children they will have to front up and be lectured and guilt tripped by drug taking hippies and Pol Pot supporters is sick.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 11:55 am
is there anything wrong with population control considering that the earth doesn’t have to resources to sustain it’s current population for much longer, let alone an exponential growth rate? Plus, as this thread shows some people – especially certain justice oriented dad’s – are too stupid to breed anyway and should thus be banned.
Pol Pot supporters? oh please you must know that that is just stupid, don’t you?
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 11:58 am
I got twin sons three years older than you. They laugh at jerks like you.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 12:03 pm
^and this proves my point entirely
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
The ideology that the earth cannot sustain current population growth is exactly that, ideology. Malthus started banging on about this idea way back in the early 19th century, and none of his dire predictions have come true.
United Nations figures show that the 79 countries that comprise 40 percent of the world’s population now have fertility rates too low to prevent population decline. The rate in Asia fell from 2.4 in 1965-70 to 1.5 in 1990-95. In Latin America and the Caribbean, the rate fell from 2.75 in 1960-65 to 1.70 in 1990-95. In Europe, the rate fell to 0.16 – that is, effectively zero – in 1990-95. And the annual rate of change in world population fell from 2 percent in 1965-70 to less than 1.5 percent in 1990-95. Official forecasts of eventual world population size have been steadily falling. In 1992-93, the World Bank predicted world population would exceed 10 billion by the year 2050. In 1996, the U.N. predicted 9 billion for 2050. If the trend continues, the next estimate will be lower still.
Overpopulation is a relative term. Over with respect to what? Food? Resources? Living space? The data show that no case can be made for overpopulation with respect to all three variables.
Population control is CONTROL. That means handing over yet more freedom to nanny state.
James Weber said in a brilliant 2005 article:
‘Population growth creates a need to change, to improve, to find better ways of doing things. No other force on earth provides greater motivation to discard old, outmoded customs and adopt new, innovative methods than the demographic pressure of increasing numbers of people for whom room must be made at the table. Population growth is the engine of economic progress, providing the growing numbers of people necessary to develop new knowledge and technology, create expanding markets, solve environmental problems, produce greater savings, and increase labor-force flexibility. Most important, population growth both stimulates and reflects faith in the future, an intangible yet absolutely necessary precondition of economic advancement.’
More info here, including the fact that those countries with strong population control have the worst human rights records.
http://pop.org/main.cfm?
Vote:d=268&r1=1.00&r2=5.00&r3=0&r4=0&level=2&eid=802
October 18th, 2008 at 12:23 pm
Sorry, got the link wrong
Vote:http://pop.org/main.cfm?id=268&r1=1.00&r2=5.00&r3=0&r4=0&level=2&eid=802
October 18th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
ah yes, we will just synthesize everything, of course why didn’t i think of that! anyway this has been fun but i must go do something productive you know what us lefties do: smoke pot, worship satan, plot to destroy the family, bludge off the evil gummit (oh right, we’re always doing that!) the usual stuff…ciao!
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
Translation of somewhatsillie’s last post,
“Oh no! Not facts and rational thought! I can’t deal with that stuff!”
Run run run away….
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 12:57 pm
somewhatdumb – if you want to do something about population control I have a tree and rope you can use to do your bit. The world won’t miss you:)
Vote:I have always advocated aid to the starving third world. It is a scalpal to perform vaesectomies on all breeding males there.
October 18th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
Rick Barker is going to check to see if this Chinese guy’s citizenship is legal. Yeah right
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
Rick Barker: We’re checking for fraud.
My advice is check in the mirror.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 3:06 pm
This is an election about trust.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 3:09 pm
So after you all got over your juvenile stiffies, how’s the scandal going. I see we still have a left wing government and dad is still a filthy little fucker who cant construct and argument.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
I can see why there should be population control in China.. they have like 1.2 billion. But isn’t it a little rediculous when New Zealand has 4 million? Oh, I see, if you lower the population, that way you can control crime. Hey, why didn’t I think of that.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 3:18 pm
Very good getstaffed. Sorry my vote button is broken but count me as 1 karma…
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
I can’t see that anyone has commented this definitely on the TGIF Article yet, so here goes.
Once again, a Minister has over-ruled the perfectly justifiable actions of the staff of their department. Oh well, I suppose that is now just typical of them, and it doesn’t rate as an issue with the blind loyal 30%plus of NZ voters who would even vote for Helen if she was having political opponents bumped off or thrown into jail on pretexts like Chavez and Putin (hey, Russians and Venezuelans have just as much historical association with sound moral teaching as New Zealanders have, why should we assume we would be any better than them?).
The OTHER scandal, even if NOT connected to the above, is the point that Labour holds fundraising evenings after which they are left holding “anonymously donated” wads of cash to the tune of SIX FIGURES…..??????
O.K…….???????
Can anyone IMAGINE what would be happening in the media now if it was the NATIONAL Party doing this?
O.K., there is “speculation” that certain Asian Immigrants who have been granted citizenship by direct Ministerial intervention, have been “sighted” at some of the aforesaid “fundraising” evenings……
……so the MSM can be expected to give Labour “the benefit of the doubt” about whether there is or isn’t any “connection” between the two things…….?
Again, let’s imagine what the MSM would be doing if it was a National Party fundraising evening and some short-back-and-sides, clean-shaven, Christian-family-men prosperous-small-business-owner looking guys had been “sighted” within a mile of the event………
Eh?
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Paul – I’ve watched your blogging style degenerate over the past two years. Where you were once rational, you’re now irrational. Verbal blurts have replaced reason (how ever unsound that reason may have been to my thinking, at least it existed).
Is the possibility of NZ not having a socialist government really starting to bite hard?
If you are truly an elective socialist (and not a paid troll), then perhaps you could focus on getting rid of the lying, cheating, stealing ‘leaders’ who pass themselves off as ‘social democrats’ when they are really just a personality cult centred on a megalomaniac called Helen. With that done you could help the ‘left’ rediscover their roots.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
Paul
Have you read the full story from Wishart? Have you absorbed the finer details of the connections and the associations? Have you pondered how against all advice such a thing can occur?
Now this shit about being part of/associated with the falun gong that Barker referred to, what’s all that about?
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
dad4justice (4191) 10 0 Says:
October 18th, 2008 at 8:11 am
“You hit the nail on the head jackp, I have never seen an election where coverage was so one-sided and biased or where censorship by the liberal media was so widely practiced and where media coverage was so slanted as I have seen in this election process. Ian Wishart is inspirational, the book Absolute Power highlights a shady regime of cover ups and cop outs, now this, boy who said kiwi’s accept unscrupulous government? The media are a disgrace and the government are criminals!!”
Dad4Justice, what is happening with the media and Obama is the USA is very very similar………there is one Stanley Kurtz who has done work very like Wishart does here, and he gets ignored by the New York Times and NBC and so on……but in the USA you can’t keep the truth under that easily, blogs are more powerful than here, they have Fox News and the National Review and a whole lot of other alternatives and even in New York there are papers other than the NYT that you can buy, the Wall Street Journal is good, and the “local media” all over the USA are much more balanced (The Cleveland Leader has done really good research on Obama too).
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
Burt, you have to understand that our good comrade would have had to make an incredibly hard decision before he could read Ian’s article…$3 for the details or $3 towards a Joint…alas I think we all know what the decision was.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
Now back to more pressing maters, I don’t believe anyone’s made the possible connection that this scandal might just be the smoking gun Winnie has held over HC, forcing her to support him during the Owen Glenn affair. Any thoughts bloggers?
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
Patrick Starr says:
Brilliant! Market that to the MSM and waive attribution and someone’s bound to run the story as a lead just to be able to use that line
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
DamnedAngry
You may be onto something. Winston has suddenly stepped back into anti immigration mode…. He’s dusted off the files he had on Labour before 2005 that Rex talks about earlier. Wishart added a few recent events and bingo. Here we are today, three weeks till the election.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
“and dad is still a filthy little fucker who cant construct and argument.”
Paul – really !! whatever your relationship was with your parents I don’t believe you should bring it here
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
Paul,
“how’s the scandal going.”
Rather well thanks. It’s headlining 3 news tonight.
“I see we still have a left wing government”
Thats because it’s not actually election day yet. If your confused about that I’ll give you a hint. It’s in THREE WEEKS.
“dad is still a filthy little fucker who cant construct and argument.”
I have yet to see you construct a single coherent and rational argument since you have been here. All you do is engage in vile name calling and sneering verbal farts.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 5:10 pm
Paul
Are you the same person as “sonic”?
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 5:32 pm
Paul is sonic? Now that makes sense.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
“With that done you could help the ‘left’ rediscover their roots.”
Yes “roots”, It is almost inconcievable that the NZ labour party came from the coal miners on the West Coast to give the working class “man” a better deal for his “family”
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
And Helen called West Coasters “feral inbreds” . You go figure. What a nut case she is.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 5:47 pm
TV3 are already spinning this as a John Key stuff up.
Unbelievable socialist media b’stards.
They don’t seem to give any bandwidth to substance ministerial-level corruption that has been exposed.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
Labour always play pass the buck blame game. The media are slimy tentacles of the giant Helengrad octopus.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 5:53 pm
Key is getting the dirty laundry out at TVNZ and TV3 tonight letting everyone know he’s met the labour donor passport buying Chinese and Australian fugitive three times. I guess that clears the decks andis good strategy so it leaves Monday morning for the Government to explain themselves.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 6:06 pm
“The media are slimy tentacles of the giant Helengrad octopus.”
D4J really cheers me up sometimes with these witty remarks, keep em comming bro!!
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 6:11 pm
TV One’s coverage was pretty good. They made it clear that the main issue was Shane Jones approving him. TV 3′s was pathetic.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
We should come up with a competition for the best single discourse of descriptive socialist skullduggery.
Vote:how about a competition DPF?
October 18th, 2008 at 6:52 pm
After Clarks phone call to ‘Shower Head Shane’ at the beginning of the week….. can you imagine what she said to ‘Citizenship Shane’, or ‘Jade Passport Jones’ yesterday???
Something like “You are twice one big dumb fuck !”
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 6:54 pm
So National gets a donation and is in opposition so no way for this to gain any favours.
Labour is in power, accepts a donation and then goes against department recommendations. Isn’t that call corruption in most other countries?
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
Nice shot of Key on TV3 though, out with a shovel helping rebuild a decile one school and Helen is just hanging around malls.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
Why was half the TV3 article about Key, he didn’t approve a passport.
If Winnie has something on Helen, then Helen definetly has something on TV3. They should have murdered Labour over this.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 7:01 pm
Yes! But NZers have become desensitised to it. These problem go away when our ‘clever’ PM deals with them, thereby absolving citizens of any responsibility to think for themselves, or to demand any reasonable ethical standards.
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
I think theres a Labour troll working overtime tonight marking us all down
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 9:38 pm
You gotta love Labour’s spin
Helen – This man me have his citizenship revoked if fraud can be proved.
They already knew about the fraud when they approved his application!!!
Questions for the media to ask?
How come they only discovered the potential for fraud on the same day Ian Wishart’s story was released?
How come the minister approved an application for citizenship from someone already with a warrant out for his arrest?
Why do Labour allow their donations to be unaccounted for at donation rallies?
Not difficult really – now lets see if Espiner or Garner can get to work!
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 10:07 pm
I still don’t think this issue would normallly be a showstopper but in the current environment with Labour now in serious trouble in the polls this is another nail in their coffin.
Shane Jones isn’t going to smell of roses when this is over.
Another up and comer from Labour bites the dust, what a shame!
The Indian community are pissed off with Labour too:
http://lindsayaddie.blogspot.com/2008/10/are-labour-losing-indian-vote-too.html
And so is Tim Shadbolt. Cannot believe I’ve seen the day when he said he’s voting National!
Vote:October 18th, 2008 at 10:40 pm
Key’s learning fast.
Vote:On TV1 he told how it was.
He had met Liu. $5000 donation. Pansy Wong wrote a support letter.
This is what I want to hear from him not the slithering Transrail share cock-up.
By being honest & not making a political score & sticking to the big issue: financial crisis
he’ll win support.
Of course Labour have skeletons in every portfolio just as National did by 1999 after 3 terms
Power, greed, nepotism it happens everytime no matter who the parties.
My prediction is this will be forgotten by Tuesday
October 19th, 2008 at 8:39 am
If Helen Clark was found to have murdered someone the headlines would read; “Keys cousin once owned similar gun”
Vote:October 19th, 2008 at 9:04 am
“Now back to more pressing maters, I don’t believe anyone’s made the possible connection that this scandal might just be the smoking gun Winnie has held over HC, forcing her to support him during the Owen Glenn affair. Any thoughts bloggers?”
Quite possibly. It may be concidence that Peters has come out with his anti-immigrant rant this week, but then again……
Vote:October 19th, 2008 at 9:08 am
“…Helen definetly has something on TV3. They should have murdered Labour over this.”
I’ve said it before here: if TV3 are so enamoured with socialism, perhaps an incoming National Government might require them to provide two minutes of free advertising per hour on social issues (obesity, etc). The Left could hardly object.
The requirement could be reviewed every twelve months. Let’s see how quickly TV3 clear out Garner, et al, once the profits and share price start dropping.
Vote:October 19th, 2008 at 9:42 am
Toby. I’m not sure if it’s TV3, or just the guy they call their ‘political editor’?
Vote:I listened to Barry Soper talking to Leighton Smith following the leaders debate heard Soper admit his views on the Springbok Tour and Vietnam War were the correct views, and anything else was going to be rubbished by him. Soper is called a ‘political correspondent’
Problem is both these terms imply a degree of intended media impartiality to the general public, when clearly they are working to their own agendas.
(At least Chris Trotter openly states his left leanings when writing an ‘opinion’ column in the Dom Post.)
If you were to take something like the EFA to an honest intent you’d be getting all these prima donna political hacks to openly declare whom he or she vote for
October 20th, 2008 at 11:11 am
How goes it in the greatest non political scandal since the last time Wishart got all hot and bothered. I thought the MSM was all over this and prison doors were opening.
Seems the MSM isn’t all over this and padded cell doors should be opening…
Vote:October 20th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
You’re not going to have the last say LOSER!
Vote:October 20th, 2008 at 4:53 pm
Think again sunshine.
Going over the exceedingly communist MSM, there seems to be sod all about it really. Some of the biased buggers have focused on National getting a payout from him too. Others don’t give a shit. I wonder if it made Wishart cry?
Vote:October 20th, 2008 at 5:39 pm
Paul,
I should think Ian very happy. It was all over the media Saturday and Sunday, it made Shane Jones and Rick Barker look sleazy, dishonest and corrupt, which of course they are, and it forced Labour into launching an inquiry.
All in all a good weekends work!
The fact that there are now other things on the news is because other things are also happening. Duh.
But the damage is done to Labour, at a time when they least needed it. The only person with their head in the sand is you. Or are in Vancouver again? What time is it there?
By the way, if you don’t support Labour, why the hell do you care? Or you lying about that too?
Vote:October 20th, 2008 at 9:59 pm
OMG is that what you call all over it?
I care sunshine because if National’s economic policy wasn’t at the expense of social policy, I seriously wouldn’t give a shit. I’m about to finically do a hell of a lot better under nationals tax cuts. But then I don’t need the extra money – the general govt bucket needs it..
We have the best ACC system in the world, yet that is signalled to go. It’s the fucking envy of anyone in the world you explain it to. Sure it could do better, but selling it off, a pure ideological position and nothing more.
Kiwibank (even more so in this day and age) is something that hundreds of thousands of us are proud of. It’s keeping all the other foreign owned banks honest – but it’s not just me saying that, it’s winning the awards to prove it.
Kiwirail – well how successful was the whole sell rail system to the yanks then the aussies – run down the rolling stock, sod all capital investment – fuck all marketing or even attempting to build the business – and that’s with a virtual monopoly. How many more trucks are on the road now as a result of the literal running down of the rail network. In a time of growth, how utterly insane was it to run down one of the primary tools in transporting goods about. Even easier considering the rail network is set up to connect the major ports and cities and towns – it was all there. Oh that’s right, how many shares in road transport did they own. To run down a monopoly like they did was reprehensible.
Universities – under national it was acceptable for universities to compete with each other offering the same courses – it’s a model that failed and was a proven redundancy of resources.
Crime policy – as proven, studies show that 3 strikes and you’re out rule works to a certain extent (but doesn’t stop crime), and those about to go down for their final time, go down in a big way, might as well go big. So nowhere else in the world has it been proven that locking people up for good works dramatically enough to have the desired affect here, but how much will 2 new prisons cost and yes they are run by a bureaucracy. SO we are destined to double our prison muster just because of some feel good factor.
Tax – does anyone over 100,00,200,000, 300,000 need extra money in their pockets? The very essence of living in a social democracy is that everyone contributes tax – and proportionally.
Electricity – how fucking successful were the Max Bradofrd electricity reforms? Where has been the massive investment in new generation and who here has seen a power bill come down as a result of the competition that he said would happen? Not one!
Teaching and education – why is it vouchers have been voted down time and time again by teachers resoundingly. Remember it won’t hurt teachers (no matter how brainwashing socialist you think they are), it will hurt schools and education. If it was such a good idea, someone outside of the small right wing think tank would have come out endorsing it.
Health, throwing money at it is good, but then how much do you throw at it. The idea that we contract out to private providers is so disingenuous it’s fucking hysterical. 99% of the specialist doctors are employed by DHB’s but also contract their services back to hospitals through their private practises – I know this for a fact I have many friends in very nice private practise across the country. My mothers heart surgeon is one of the best in the country and a professor of medicine. He works for the CHCH DHB and is in private practise. Those who can afford to jump the cue for surgery now by simply fronting up with the money, the rest of the fodder just need to wait their time. In many many cases the surgery is done by the same people in the same place – all govt money.
Kyoto. Not the best model about, but it’s a hell of a lot better than doing nothing, when is national’ commitment again – oh that’s right, when my kids will all be middle aged, yet the problem is now. That’s just bullshit. That’s the same with emissions trading schemes, which are running elsewhere in the world more than successfully – yes including British Columbia.
They talk about the RMA as if ‘fixing’ it is going to be some sort of panacea of the economy. But under the RMA has the country been halted from it’s frenzied conversion from mixed arable to the world’s biggest dairy farm – no it hasn’t.
The economy. Where is this growth going to come from? Growth by it’s very nature is inflationary, and considering we are going to be pushing 5% inflation this year, how will growth impact on inflation. Scraping the R&D tax credit before it’s even had a chance of starting, given that we don’t invest in R&D now, who how what why and where is R&D money going to come from. That old bugger Roger Douglas suggest it will come from government grants??? Excuse me was I hearing that right????????? So Government (through some sort of bureaucracy) will determine who and why R&D money is to be allocated, rather than allowing a free market of businesses to establish R&D and subject themselves to market pressures of R&D – more often than not ideology puts undue pressure on that man’s brain. So without a serious commitment to R&D, and at this stage only personal tax cuts signalled, where exactly is this growth going to come from. Seemingly it’s all set up for consumer driven growth, this isn’t structural and/or value added export growth. And I’m not the only one asking where is the growth going to come from from personal tax cuts.
If the R&D and Kiwisaver decisions were so bloody good why was it everyone from Infometrics through to ACT thought it was madness – even ‘bone chilling’?
See as an intelligent human being, I don’t believe (contrary to the idiotic stereotypes of the left portrayed here – showing an oh so intelligent understanding of the issues) that all humans should be reduced to the lowest common denominator. We should all be striving to make as much and be as successful as possible. However those that can’t or don’t, do not deserved to be left behind. But then that’s the fundamental difference between us. Show me where in the world where either system is working, but I would argue that the pitfalls of unfettered capitalism are greater – or do we need to use the USA with 3.4m homeless in 2007 and multi billion dollar bailouts as a successful model. Turia’s plans to make everyone work for the dole – yeah great, where is the work? But then she’s talking about government businesses, or at least massive investment in infrastructure that isn’t even signalled for at the moment, and if you think for one minute that Auckland needs another motorway – please check in the the lobotomy now. But aside from that, given that economists think that anything below 3% is zero unemployment, there is always going to be a core of unemployed (unlike the 1095s where you could actually name the dozen or so unemployed), what are they going to be employed to do and won’t this false employment actually be at the expense of private enterprise. They are hardly the folk who will take the work experience and turn it into a business venture, so they will be competing with other business, or are we to suddenly be competing with china for exceedingly cheap consumer products – but I thought government had no place in business according to ACT?
The main reason I don’t support labour is simply down to their environmental policies (which are downright fundy feral green compared to the nats). The idea that environmental protection is anti-business is to demonstrate an inability to construct a serious economic argument. Any economist will tell you, that given the parameters business can and will operate in more or less any condition. But if said parameters aren’t at the expense of the environment, then business can not only be profitable but sustainable. I mean show me the business model that says, expense on the balance sheet must be as high as possible. But that is the very case at the moment when business operates less then efficiently due to poor environmental practise. A good friend of mine shaved $150,000 off the energy bill of the Otago Museum, just by putting in best practise. Local example, when govt signalled a shift to energy saving bulbs we thought there must be something in it. So for $22 cost of a house lot of bulbs we have saved $198 a year or $16 a month, more than a measly tax cut. It wasn’t nanny state imprisoning me or telling me what to do in a Orwellian manner as suggested by the right, it was a simple economically prudent measure.
Finally section 59. How could anyone want to hit their kids? I’m not allowed to hit you, I should not be allowed by law to legally hit my kids. Anyone that want’s to hit defenceless children needs their fucking heads read. At least Katherine Rich had the intestinal fortitude to stand up to her party with that issue. But in the same breath, the Labour govt introduced paid parental leave. This is about as pro family a policy as anyone could imagine. Have kids, look after and nurture them, and then if possible you can get back into the work force.
BTW have you ever been to Vancouver, or left NZ. Some of the biggest critics of this country haven’t even left the place. Vancouver isn’t perfect, but then with the most basic of human traits, the ability to look and learn, we should be able to take the best of what others have to offer and see how we can learn from them, and we have so much to learn from that place – for a start they didn’t allow shoebox apartments in the central city – they actually had to be family size. How successful are those apartments in Auckland? How many people live downtown in Auckland, Vancouver it’s close to 70,000 people. That’s people that don’t need cars and motorways, that’s people that create a living environment a vibrant place to live, not just a urban ghetto that’s dangerous at night.
But long story short, I’ll vote as far away as possible from anyone that Dad4 votes for.
Come on big bollocks what do you stand for.
Vote:October 20th, 2008 at 10:01 pm
BTW to address you directly, “dishonest and corrupt, which of course they are” you know this for a fact, this has been proven in a court of law, oh that’s right no it hasn’t.
Ideological idiocy.
Vote:October 20th, 2008 at 11:20 pm
“OMG is that what you call all over it?”
By today’s media standards, and given everything else going on in NZ and the world…yup
“I care sunshine because if National’s economic policy wasn’t at the expense of social policy,”
You mean socialist policy right? Why the dishonesty?
“the general govt bucket needs it..”
That would be the massive black hole in Wellington sucking the productive sector of the economy into oblivion? That “bucket” is already fat enough.
“We have the best ACC system in the world, yet that is signalled to go.”
Cool!
I have dealt with it. Its a fucking joke.
“Kiwibank (even more so in this day and age) is something that hundreds of thousands of us are proud of.”
Thats because you and other kiwibank users are glorified welfare bludgers. As well as paying my own bank fees, I am forced through my taxes to support yours. Thats called stealing. You have no right to steal from me.
“why is it vouchers have been voted down time and time again by teachers resoundingly.”
Because they are terrified that better schools will come along and show up the fact that they are nothing more than second rate tossers. Plus they are socialists and/or liberals (homosexuals, feminsists and so forth) trying to maintain an ideological monopoly over childrens minds.
“Health,”
That would be the state rationed system that lets people die on waiting lists. Typical government run fuck up.
“Kyoto. Not the best model about,”
Thats because its based on a lie. See the doco “The Great Global Warming Swindle”.
“The RMA.”
Talk to a farmer. Its a clusterfuck that violates property rights and achieves nothing of value apart from telling people what colour to paint their homes.
“Growth by it’s very nature is inflationary,”
Nope. Inflation is caused by government control of the money supply and fiat currency.
You need a basic economics education. Try here: http://www.mises.org
“If the R&D and Kiwisaver decisions were so bloody good why was it everyone from Infometrics through to ACT thought it was madness”
People get addicted to welfare. The R&D credits were a form of welfare. The kiwisaver policy was a mild improvement but if it was up to me I would scrap it in total.
“Finally section 59. How could anyone want to hit their kids?”
Mild spanking never did anyone any harm. Look at the behaviour of children today, compared to a few decades ago. The children virtually run the show in most families now, and they run the schools. Violence against parents and teachers is on the rise. And most parents admit they have little control over what their children do. We have had this PC social engineering crap for thirty years now and society is worst than ever. More crime. More drugs. More underage sex and STDs. More out of marriage pregnancies. More abortions. More divorce. More adolescent alcohol abuse.
Whatever its faults the 1950′s look like a paradise compared to the shit hole we are forced to live in now.
“what do you stand for.”
God. Country. Family. Tradition. Life. Liberty. Property.
Vote:October 20th, 2008 at 11:24 pm
“BTW have you ever been to Vancouver, or left NZ.”
I was born in the US, grew up in a military family, and lived in a number of places around the world.
I like Stephen Harper
Vote:October 20th, 2008 at 11:40 pm
Lee, You missed one.
“Tax – does anyone over 100,00,200,000, 300,000 need extra money in their pockets? The very essence of living in a social democracy is that everyone contributes tax – and proportionally”
Yep! Its my fucken money, I worked for it and want it. I contribute tax at probably a much higher percentage than you Paul.
Vote:October 20th, 2008 at 11:49 pm
Thanks. Fisking a rant that size gets boring real fast. Paul takes himself way to seriously.
Vote:October 21st, 2008 at 8:14 am
Lee so that was it, that’s what you stand for?
Patrick, again stereotypes of the right blurring the reality of the world. So you’re saying for a fact you know how much I pay in tax, good glad that’s cleared things up. Actually Partick, if you want to play the money game, who know’s where the money started from and where it’s going to end up. The money you so preciously earned was a social and economic agreement between your employer and you, or your customers and you, just as it is with the tax man. It’ called a social contract, don’t like it, find somewhere out there where you don’t need to contribute to the social and economic well being of the whole.
Lee you asked what do I stand for, if you don’t want to mount a defence that goes a long way to showing what you don’t stand for. I’m glad that the rest seemingly isn’t offensive to you guys.
Vote:October 21st, 2008 at 8:28 am
Diddums Paul tell someone who gives a toss!
Vote:October 21st, 2008 at 2:51 pm
“Lee so that was it, that’s what you stand for?”
Are you finding it difficult to understand? Its the standard description of a conservative (God, country family) libertarian (Life, liberty, property). Just Google those two words, or try Frank Meyer and “fusionism”. Unlike you I don’t take myself so seriously that I’m going to waste vast amounts of DPF’s blog space posting long winded rants just to satisfy your demands.
“Lee you asked what do I stand for, if you don’t want to mount a defence that goes a long way to showing what you don’t stand for.”
I did mount a defense, firstly by going through your post pretty much line by line and showing where and why I disagree, and secondly by putting my own beliefs in a one line sentence so that even you could grasp them.
But, as you seem to have difficulty sometimes understanding basic English…
Vote:October 21st, 2008 at 3:15 pm
Socialism is a bad word now?
Public service in Wgtn, not going to come down under national – so they are different to labour how.
ACC = Brilliant, never had an issue with them yet.
Kiwibank, stands on it’s own two feet, and any govt enterprise is not stealing from you – get over yourself
Vouchers in schools don’t hilight any of the so called stereotypical people you illustrated – weak argument
Health, show me a private health system that works well.
Global warming does exist, again get over your self. To deny global warming is equivalent to denying the Holocaust.
Lots of my family farm – don’t know which bitter and twisted ones you are talking to, the ones operating bad farming practices
Your view of inflation is just too simplistic, ignoring the many varied factors that influence it. Tosser, educated in Economics up to level three, you were saying?
R&D tax credits are not a form of welfare, that is just simple blind ideology getting in the way of argument there.
Equating violence perpetrated against children to poor parenting and eventual societal outcomes is weak to say the least. Parents admitting they have little control over their kids has nothing to do with the level of violence in a household. I don’t hit my kids and have great control over them.
Ah the old revisionist 1950s NZ was so much better. Had a chat to my mum about that. Abortion, drug use, underage sex, alcohol abuse, teen pregnancies, Crime blah blah blah, were all prevalent back then.
Vote:October 21st, 2008 at 4:32 pm
“Socialism is a bad word now?”
Always has been.
“Public service in Wgtn, not going to come down under national – so they are different to labour how.”
Yes it is. National intend to cut the numbers and use a razor gang to cut waste.
“Kiwibank, stands on it’s own two feet”
No it doesnt. Its was created by taxpayers money. The Southland Building Society stands on its feet,
ACC? Thousands of employers have come out and slammed it for being inefficient.
“Health, show me a private health system that works well.”
There are none. All health systems including the US’s are regulated by the state. And all of them suck.
Global warming? Watch the doco ‘The Great Global Warming Swindle’ then get back to me. And get over yourself. If your unwilling to look at contrary information your just a mindless sheep. Baaaaa.
Oh, and comparing contrarian views on weather to Holocaust denial is truly sick. Thats a offensive to Jews and a form of hate speech. Hypocrite.
“don’t know which bitter and twisted ones you are talking to,”
Ah yes, standard Paul. When you don’t have an argument throw insults at people you do not even know.
“Tosser, educated in Economics up to level three, you were saying?”
So far I have wiped the floor with you and that comment proves it. If you had anything like an intelligent response, you would have used it. Thanks for proving that your economically illiterate.
By the way, although I have never been to university I have a degree level understanding of economics.
“R&D tax credits are not a form of welfare”
Welfare is a government hand out. The R&D “credits” were a hand out.
“Equating violence perpetrated against children to poor parenting and eventual societal outcomes is weak to say the least.”
In fact what I said was that violence BY children against adults, which is on the rise, as well as poor parenting, is directly and clearly related to a lack of general discipline and liberal parenting. For example, since outlawing corporal discipline in schools violece against teachers has risen. Most kiwis, apart from you, are finally getting this. Even a liberal-left magazine like the Listener has run articles on the issue. You and the hippies in the Green Party seem to be the only people who have your hands over your eyes.
“Had a chat to my mum”
Ohhhh….. well then that says a lot.
Facts.
While abortion and the other issues did occur then, the stats and figuers on everything from divorce to STD rates to abortion prove beyond argument that they have risen steeply over the last forty years.
Just to prove my point,
Divorce rates: http://www.stats.govt.nz/products-and-services/Articles/marriage-divorce-99.htm
Abortion rates: http://www.abortion.gen.nz/information/statistics.htm
STD rates:http://tvnz.co.nz/view/tvnz_portable_story_skin/105163
Game. Set. Match.
See I dont “talk to my mum” tosser. I do something called research, and base my arguments on facts.
Your a fraud.
Vote:October 21st, 2008 at 5:17 pm
“Socialism is a bad word now?”
Always has been.
“Public service in Wgtn, not going to come down under national – so they are different to labour how.”
National intends to reduce the numbers of PSA bludgers and reduce waste through a razor gang.
“ACC = Brilliant, never had an issue with them yet.”
Thousands of employers and other ordinary kiwis have.
“Kiwibank, stands on it’s own two feet, and any govt enterprise is not stealing from you ”
Established by government decree with my money. Thats not “standing on it’s own feet”, it’s stealing and getting a hand out.
“Vouchers in schools don’t hilight any of the so called stereotypical people you illustrated”
They provide choice, something that toosers like you don’t like and are fearful of.
“Health, show me a private health system that works well.”
All health systems in the world including the US’s are government regulated. And they all suck.
“Global warming does exist, again get over your self. To deny global warming is equivalent to denying the Holocaust.”
See the doco ‘The Great Global Warming Swindle’. Until then you have no argument. Oh and comparing contrarian views on the issue to holocaust denial is offensive to Jewish people and a form of hate speech. Hypocrite.
“Lots of my family farm – don’t know which bitter and twisted ones you are talking to, the ones operating bad farming practices”
Ah yes, typical Paul , when faced with an argument you have no answer for indulge in hate speeh againsty folks you do not even know. Nice.
“Your view of inflation is just too simplistic, ignoring the many varied factors that influence it.”
You said “Growth causes inflation”.. Thats about as simplistic as it gets. My view is based on decades of research and analysis by the good folks at Mises.org.
“Tosser, educated in Economics up to level three, you were saying?”
More hate speech. You don’t abide by the very rules you demand of others. Hypocrite.
“R&D tax credits are not a form of welfare, that is just simple blind ideology getting in the way of argument there.”
All government assistance to individuals and business is a form of state welfare. Thats simply a statement of fact, even before we get to judging it as right or wrong.
“Equating violence perpetrated against children to poor parenting and eventual societal outcomes is weak to say the least. Parents admitting they have little control over their kids has nothing to do with the level of violence in a household. I don’t hit my kids and have great control over them.”
Actually what I said was that violence BY children against parents and teachers is on the rise, and this is in part due to a lack of general discipline in the schools and in the homes. Thats a provable fact. Even lefty magazines like the Listener are running articles saying the same thing. Only you and the Greens are refusing to face the truth.
Plus the issue is not about whether spanking is effective or not, but about whether the state should criminalise parents for doing so. I dont think it should.
“Ah the old revisionist 1950s NZ was so much better. Had a chat to my mum about that. Abortion, drug use, underage sex, alcohol abuse, teen pregnancies, Crime blah blah blah, were all prevalent back then.”
Ohhhh….you talked to you mum
And you want people here to take you seriously?
Fact. While such things did occur back then, they did NOT occur to anywhere near the epidemic levels we have today.
And to prove my point.
Divorce rates: http://www.stats.govt.nz/products-and-services/Articles/marriage-divorce-99.htm
Look at the graph showing marriage and divorce rates since 1961.
Abortion rates: http://www.abortion.gen.nz/information/statistics.html
Crime rates: http://www.safe-nz.org.nz/statsgraph.htm 4000% increase in last 50 years 2 convictions in 1952 – 80 in 2004/2005
So in fact your “mum” is dead wrong. Such things occured but were rare. Now they are epidemic.
Game. Set. Match.
See I don’t “talk to my mum” tosser. I do research.
Your a fraud without an argument.
Vote:October 21st, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Paul,
your “argument” amounts to “Your wrong, now I’m going to call you a name” repeated over and over. You provide no facts. You provide no evidence. You provide nothing except genuine hate speech.
You call one argument I made about inflation “simplisitc”, but yours, that “growth casueses inflation” is as simplisitc as it gets.
My family that has a farm are not “bitter and twited” you piece of hypocritical shit. They are decent, caring people who have farmed well for generations, and have been well and truly screwed by the RMA. Who the fuck are you to throw insults like that around about people you do not even know? Get over yourself.
You “talked to your mum”??? Are we supposed to take that seriously as an argument?
I will respond to the last point you made with something you didn’t bother with. Facts.
Abortion rates in NZ: http://www.abortion.gen.nz/information/statistics.html
Crime rates in NZ: http://www.safe-nz.org.nz/statistics.htm
How about this for a fact. There has been a 4000% increase in violen crime tover last 50 years
2 convictions in 1952 – 80 in 2004/2005
Divorce rates in NZ: http://www.stats.govt.nz/products-and-services/Articles/marriage-divorce-99.htm
So to put it bluntly you “mum” is full of shit. Such things did occur in the fifties, but they were rare, and we now have them at epidemic levels.
See, I dont “talk to my mum”. I’m an adult. I do research.
And I have a degree level understanding of economic theory.
Your a fraud.
Vote:October 22nd, 2008 at 12:18 am
Lee this is a pointless line of argument. For some reason you claim that I am facilitating ‘hate speech’, and you claim I provide no evidence, when what we are talking about is ideology. There is no right or wrong when you are talking ideology.
You claim socialism is a bad word. How why and in who’s books, because in mine it isn’t, so who’s playing the “Your wrong, now I’m going to call you a name” game now?
I make no bones that some of the things I say is simplistic, yet you seem to base whole economic reasoning on one factor – this simply isn’t how economics works, and you know that.
Did I accuse your family farm of being bitter and twisted, no I didn’t. My relatives farm hasn’t voted anything but National since time immemorial, yet in their very own words, farming in NZ hasn’t ever been so lucrative as it is now. Again it’s all a matter of perspective.
OK if talking to a primary source isn’t good enough for you, who are we to talk to. My mother was a teacher back in the glory days you so fondly talk of, and yes she can confirm that all of the above things were happening. If a primary source isn’t good enough for you, I doubt if any academic research would be – they’re all bloody communists.
I don’t deny abortion rates have risen, never did, never will, but as an ideological position I support the rights of women (yes not the unborn fetus) to terminate a pregnancy right up to the legally defined period. I will not get into an argument with you about the rights or wrongs of abortion, as a ‘christian’ you and I will never agree on this issue, and considering they kill each other over this topic in the US, I will not be getting into that mind field.
As for crime rate, yes that has increased, where did I say it hasn’t? Crime has increased, as has the population and many social ills. You will notice if you look at the statistics that many crimes have in fact peaked if not started to trend down.
I don’t know which planet you are on, but NZ or any other nation on the world will never be the same as 1952, so equating statistics from that period to now is pointless but to show the increase. The world of 1952 is so vastly different to what we have today, and quite frankly thank goodness I don’t live in that time. The time when a dad would beat kids to within an inch of their lives, or mothers till they were black and blue and the cops wouldn’t do a thing about it because it was a family thing. It was also a time of great fear and hatred. If you were a Maori in this country, you were a second class citizen, there were places in NZ where there were blacks and whites toilets. If you were Japanese you were subject to insult and abuse, and families changed their germanic names just to fit in with the allied European names.
I have no quams about the divorce rate.
If you were pregnant in NZ underage or unmarried you were sent ‘up north’, where you would have the child and it would be duly adopted out or put in an orphanage. Talk to anyone, this is common knowledge. It existed and typically because it’s not in any recorded statistics it doesn’t count. Well simply that isn’t good enough. Neutrinos pass through our body every second, you can’t see them, but they undeniably exist. But don’t take my mothers word for it, ask my great aunt. She was a war hero, among some of the first nurses in nuclear torn Japan. She then worked the rest of her life as a nurse in NZ, unmarried it was frowned upon to have a child out of wed lock, so instead she ‘went up north’ had the baby and adopted it out. This was never recorded by any official statistics, because like so many of women’s social histories, apparently it didn’t happen – but it did, and her daughter and subsequent grand daughters could attest to that.
But you don’t want to engage in the facts do you, and as for the seemingly christian “So to put it bluntly you “mum” is full of shit”, who is engaging in hate speech now. If you are the supposed ‘christian’ you claim to be, would you seriously say those things to my face. Certainly my old vicar wouldn’t encourage such line of argument, and the catholic school I taught at for years would condemn such line of argument.
Sorry what is “you piece of hypocritical shit” if that isn’t hate speech.
What does “degree level understanding of economic theory”. You have a degree in economics, or you have read a book about economics that someone in stage 3 economic prescribes as core reading, there is a difference. I too have done the research, it’s called going to the primary sources, you know not necessarily those in the ‘official’ books. Abortion, teen pregnancy and unwed mothers did exist, they just weren’t recorded in the statistics, because that wouldn’t be proper would it.
But back to some verifiable facts sunshine. To quote john Key, we will ‘cap’ the number of civil servants at 36,000. He did not say it will come down. Considering some of those are non front line police, does he intend to actually reduce police numbers.
To establish an enterprise is not stealing, that’s a pretty far right ideological position and one that just simply isn’t part of the NZ psyche. Prey do tell, what of the hundreds of billions of dollars the US govt has just spent nationalising banks across the US, that is good old ‘stealing’ is it? I don’t want a toll road in Auckland, but my tax money is going towards that, is that not stealing? Taking that line of argument again is rather fringe (not saying it’s wrong), but it is fringe. Hospitals are run by the government, is that stealing, the military, the police force. These all take money from the government, and they don’t even turn a profit as Kiwibank does. Or would you rather that our mortgage money go to overseas banks, thus increasing our burden on foreign debt.
Sunshine, global warming does exist, and denying it is a crime against humanity, and BTW sunshine, the quote came from a Jewish American professor friend of mine teaching environmental history at the University of Wisconsin, not mine. I’ve seen the movie and wept all the way through the lies from start to finish (BTW I have a degree in geo-physics, I pretty much know the difference between science and ideology).
Calling you a tosser isn’t hate speech. It’s a little un-gentleman like, yet you seem willing to engage in personal abuse too, so we are all square on that one. Except you are the apparent ‘christian’ and I’m the godless soul who doesn’t know better, who’s the hypocrite?
“state welfare” is a social and political position that is very much the normative psyche of Kiwi’s. Regardless of the so called negative connotations of said socio-political system, it’s been a system that Kiwi’s have fought wars for, and prided themselves on, even back in 1952. In the time of the land of milk and honey, it was the defining issue that separated us from the rest of the world, and that would be the very time we were top in many of the OECD rankings. Sure it’s a political and ideological position and one that can be argued, but then the greatest jury on the merits of said system is the voting booth. And considering the only party that advocates any thing like what I am assuming you are arguing is languishing below 1.5% of the population, it’s not a system that carries a lot of water with Kiwi’s. But don’t talk to me about the my ‘views’ on the so called welfare of R&D credits. Talk to Business New Zealand and the Manufacturers association about the terrible decision to wipe these away, they hate them. Oh BTW the only far right party of so called free market economics wants to give and quote “grants” to business that wished to undertake R&D. That’s right on the National radio debate over the weekend Sir Roger Douglas want’s government bureaucrats to decide who and how much money business in NZ should get in the form of R&D money, that’s ACT offical position on the issue
“lack of general discipline in the schools and in the homes” for it to be a provable fact, it would have to have been studied with a control group and measured over time. I don’t see such evidence, it is pure conjecture. No it’s not about whether we make criminals out of parents who hit their kids, the issue is, are we as rational human beings allowed a state sanctioned defence of violence against children, the most vulnerable and defenceless members of our society. And the answer to that is no. I’ve heard argument from people (Family First) that children whom don’t have the mental capacity to think for themselves need a sharp physical stimulus to prevent themselves from doing harm. Fine, do we hit intellectually handicapped people, or the old (with diminished mental capacity), no we don’t. To assume that anyone could hit one member of society over another is hypocrisy at the highest. Section 59 removes any right to a defence for violence against children and it should and rightfully be applauded. As we speak people are in the dock accused of murdering a wee baby. It started with hitting, then beatings then kicking, the being put in a tumble drier. Funny though, it’s the same argument against violent criminals as proposed by National and ACT, only applied to the weak and defenceless, yet it doesn’t even register.
“Ohhhh….you talked to you mum”, and apparently you talked to your parents or family about the farming situation. Yet I’m not to be taken seriously yet you are? Who’s the hypocrite?
“Game. Set. Match.” You really are a sanctimonious twat aren’t you. Where did the superiority complex come from? Of course your inability to see that there are obvious other views is very symptomatic of level 3 conventional thinking as prescribed by Kohlberg’s stages of moral development. Although the lack of social in your argument suggests a tendency for level 2 pre-conventional (described as self interested). At least at level 3 there is a degree of looking for the social norms to back up one’s beliefs. You display all the traits of a person who thinks they are superior to the rest of us. I never pretend to know more than the next person, I do however us the knowledge I attained in my various degrees to critique or synthesis argument.
I am very sorry that you don’t value primary sources as valuable to knowledge. that is unfortunate, because most people (including the right) readily acknowledge that this is as valuable to the debate as simple divisible statistics.
As for your statistics, you show a willingness to use the statistics that illustrate your point, but not the ones that show the total picture. You see I too went to the other primary soucre, but past 1999 (your stats). Funny my stats (well the official government stats) show that the rate of divorce has peaked in 1982, declined sharply afterwards, rose slightly and since 2002 has been on the decline again. So I’m not sure what your point is. The data shows that the overall rate has increased, but it also shows that it can fall and has been steadily since 2002. Indeed the length of time people are together has increased over recent times.
(http://www.stats.govt.nz/NR/rdonlyres/DB2EAFC4-DA62-4B26-A3DF-0600E30B1204/0/Chapter3_Marriagecivilunionanddivorce.pdf) since you like the facts.
the statistics re abortion also show a rise over the 1980s and 1990s, but since 2002 a marked decline.
As for crime, according to the official government records (not some trust), the overall offence rate has risen since 1970 to a peak in 1991, but since then the overall rate of crime in New Zealand has fallen, and dramatically (infact at a greater rate than the rise in crime). Our overall crime rate is now pretty similar to that of the early 1980s, and if it continues to fall (there is no evidence that it won’t) at the same rate it will be back to pre 1980s levels before the end of the decade. Now I don’t know anyone that could think this is a bad thing.
You seem unwilling to accept primary sources as evidence, your statistics are wonderfully out of date. You display an inability to acknowledge that on many things all we are arguing is ideology or value positions and you are free with personal abuse.
Vote:October 22nd, 2008 at 1:36 am
The Labour government is going down.
Lee totalled PWNED Paul.
Vote:October 22nd, 2008 at 1:48 am
well he hasn’t yet, but I’m yet to see his reply. OECD you better be right or how could you live with yourself come Nov 9?
Vote:October 22nd, 2008 at 2:03 am
Oops, I made a triple post. Sorry DPF.
“Lee this is a pointless line of argument. ”
Yes. I have beaten you.
“You claim socialism is a bad word. How why and in who’s books,”
Millions of conservatives and libertarians around the world.
“I make no bones that some of the things I say is simplistic, yet you seem to base whole economic reasoning on one factor – this simply isn’t how economics works, and you know that.”
In fact my analysis is based on over a hundred years of research and study by the Austrian school.
Yours was “growth causes inflation”, which is as simplistic as it is possible to get. I gave you a number of reasons for inflation including complex issues such as fiat currency. Do you even know what fiat currency is?
“Did I accuse your family farm of being bitter and twisted”
Yes.
“OK if talking to a primary source isn’t good enough for you, who are we to talk to. My mother was a teacher back in the glory days you so fondly talk of, and yes she can confirm that all of the above things were happening.”
Happening and prevalent are not the same thing. Your changing your story. In fact, your changing everything you said. You have gone from claiming that nothing has changed since the fifties to “yes its changed but I don’t care.”
“I don’t know which planet you are on, but NZ or any other nation on the world will never be the same as 1952,”
If your trying to get to a destination (in this case a better society) and you realise your on the wrong road, its makes sense to go back and try another path. The radical social breakdown we have now is clear evidence we are on the wrong road.
“I have no quams about the divorce rate”
Of course you don’t, your a liberal. The destruction of families and the suffering its causes, as well as the costs to society it brings (about one billion a year as we have just learned), does not concern you because your blinded by an idolatrous devotion to a failed ideology.
As to my understanding of economics, I have read close to three hundred “primary sources”, many of them classics such as ‘Human Action’ by Ludwig von Mises, ‘The Road to Serfdom’ by F.A. Hayek, ‘The Theory of Moral Sentiments’ and ‘An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations’ by Adam Smith, and many, many others. I don’t say this to boast, but to counter your claim that I don’t have any idea what I’m talking about.
“To establish an enterprise is not stealing”
It is if it is done by government decree and on the backs of taxpayers.
“Sunshine, global warming does exist,”
Thousands of good scientists with degrees do not agree with you.
“and apparently you talked to your parents or family about the farming situation”
Mine and many. many others, plus I have followed closely the debate and the many complaints and concerns about the RMA from hundreds of kiwi citizens.
“Sorry what is “you piece of hypocritical shit” if that isn’t hate speech.”
You like to dish out insults (you keep calling me ‘tosser’, so again, if you do not like it, DON’T DISH IT. Dishing it then whining when someone dishes it back makes you a hypocrite.
“You seem unwilling to accept primary sources as evidence”
You have not given any. You have given me your opinion and your mums.
“and you are free with personal abuse.”
Only when you dish it out in the first place.
Face it, I countered everything you said with both well reasoned opinion AND stastical evidence.
You got spanked bud.
Get over it.
Vote:October 22nd, 2008 at 10:56 am
“Yes. I have beaten you” OMGG so who’s playing the I’m right you’re wrong line now.
“Millions of conservatives and libertarians around the world.” Not a right or wrong answer again, a value or ideological position.
“It is if it is done by government decree and on the backs of taxpayers”
In that case every single operation of government is stealing. and that my dogmatic ideologically blind friend is where it stops, because first clause dogmatic thought demonstrated by you has no intention of debate, you are simply playing the exceedingly childish “I’m right you’re wrong line” and that gets nobody anywhere.
If you do not acknowledge a woman’s description of what it was like to teach back then as a primary source then sorry you you are not only blind to primary sources you are exceedingly stupid. I’ll go with the latter because the rest of the reasoning is about as thoughtful as primary school yard antics.
done and good luck with the arrogance, it’s most unbecoming for a supposed christian.
Vote:October 22nd, 2008 at 3:13 pm
“Not a right or wrong answer again, a value or ideological position.”
It’s a statement of fact. Millions of conservatives think that socialism is bad word. Their position may be ideological (yours are as well), but that millions hold to that ideological position is true.
“In that case every single operation of government is stealing.”
Correct. The only legitimate functions of government are police, justice and national defense, all of which can be done without resorting to the initiation of force, through voluntary means.
“my dogmatic ideologically blind friend is where it stops, because first clause dogmatic thought demonstrated by you has no intention of debate”
Which is exactly what you yourself do, you just pretend not to and want to skew the rules of debate to suit yourself and disallow ideological positions you don’t like, while allowing your own. That is hypocrisy. Socialism is an ideological position. You cannot promote your own ideology, then whine when someone else does and accuse them of not wanting a debate. ALL political debate is ideological.
“If you do not acknowledge a woman’s description of what it was like to teach back then as a primary source”
Its an opinion not a description. I say that because I have parents and grandparents and have talked over the years to many other people who were alive prior to the sixties and I have never yet heard any of them claim social issues relating to crime and the family are no different now to what they were then. So in fact I am fine with primary sources, I just do not believe your “mum” is a reliable one given that nobody else I know who was alive then agrees with her.
So I am left with two possibilities. Your mum is wrong. Your “mum” is a mythical construct you pulled out of a hat to try and bolster a weak argument that you could not back up with facts.
“good luck with the arrogance, it’s most unbecoming for a supposed christian.”
I am not arrogant, I just happen to have clearly and strongly held views and principles based on personal belief, experience, and years of research. I think your used to talking to people who are pushovers and cannot back up their views with facts, so you get frustrated and indulge in personal attacks, then whine when you get attacked back.
Done indeed.
Vote:October 22nd, 2008 at 4:20 pm
this is getting funny, seemingly the only one here that is a ‘mythical construct’ is you and your fantasy world.
Socialism is an ideological position sunshine, never said it isn’t. (que music from Twilight Zone)
“The only legitimate functions of government are police, justice and national defense” Please elucidate your argument here? Either all functions of government are legitimate or none of them are, you just can’t have a select few, that is a value position. You can’t simply say my list of x,y and z are legitimate functions of government and all the rest aren’t. It’s not valid argument, it’s a value position. OK, fine then, MY list of a,b and c are the only legitimate function of government. If you are allowed you list, I am and that simply is the undeniable truth. What you need to be saying (I can’t believe I’m having to construct argument for you) is, that you believe the only legitimate function of government is x,y and z. That is a value position and one you may be able to argue, but ultimately it’s a value position based on “personal belief, experience, and years of research”.
I’m happy to debate you all you want, but please debate about things that actually exist in the world. You know reality, the stuff that surrounds us.
As for the rest of the bullshit about ‘mythical constructs’ go fuck yourself. Again you can not use your parents as an example to prove a negative yet deny the right of mine to prove a fact. I know that my Aunty had a child out of wed lock (teen pregnancy in fact), she did ‘go up north’ to have first the abortion (couldn’t go through with it) and then adopted the kid out. See this isn’t a mythical construct, I’ve met the daughter, and her adopted parents, and unless they are all part of your “Truman Show” written in to piss me off precisely at this point of time, they are an undeniable truth of fact. Because your parents or others you talked to don’t have recollections of these things happening in the past, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. FFS it’s like a member of the British Royal Family saying, there was no child poverty in Britain. Sure they may never have been exposed to it, but that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen (cue more Twilight Zone music)
You are pushing the boundaries of what many people would label sanity, and I don’t know if that’s a good think to be documenting in the blogosphere. You are an exceedingly arrogant but disturbingly ignorant person. You and only you are the one who is correct in the world, and that is just a sad state to hold. (draw the curtain with full version of Twilight Zone music).
Besides which, this is getting us nowhere because you have contradicted yourself time and time again, giving no factual evidence that these things (teen pregnancy, abortion, divorce etc) didn’t exist, – that would be because you can’t. Oh no wait, the writers of the Truman Show are furiously at work, and we seem to be getting a re-write of history for the next episode. Can’t wait, riveted to my seat, what will it be this week (cue Twilight Zone music).
Vote:October 22nd, 2008 at 4:48 pm
I never said they “didint exist” so I am not contradicting myself. Your lying. Again. Show me anywhere in my posts where I said they did not happen. Go on, show me. Quote me. I dare you. I double dare you
I said, repeatedly “yes they happenned, but not to the DEGREE they do now”, and proved it with statistical facts. Now your stooping to lying about what people say. Thats shameful Paul, and proves that your not remotely concerned with real debate.
ALL positions on government are value judgments, including yours. But mine is based on a consistent moral position, the non-initiation of force principal. As to your delusional notions of reality, they are just another dishonest tactic to skew the “debate” in your favour.
“As for the rest of the bullshit about ‘mythical constructs’ go fuck yourself.”
Oh yeah, your REALLY open to debate based in reality
The rest of your long winded rant is just another attempt to force any “debate” to conform to your arbitrary rules to suit yourself and your fantasies about the good of socialism.
Face it, a self-educated, working class, southern American redneck spanked you in a debate and your ego can’t handle it. Like all socialist teachers your utterly convinced of your own intellectual superiority and when some you think is below you shows you up you blow a fuse.
Sad Paul. Very sad.
Vote:October 22nd, 2008 at 4:54 pm
by claiming that what my mother said as a ‘mythical construct’.
“But mine is based on a consistent moral position, the non-initiation of force principal” Again this is a value position. You CAN NOT claim one set of beliefs to be held above all others. What you are seeking is an absolute truth, and these exist but not where you are trying to apply them.
So without the “non-initiation of force principal”, pre tell how does one fund the army, police and judiciary? I’m guessing without taxation there might be some form of serfdom. Come on, how do you fund these things without taxation?
Vote:October 22nd, 2008 at 5:02 pm
This has been entertaining. Well done Lee!
Vote:October 22nd, 2008 at 5:18 pm
“by claiming that what my mother said as a ‘mythical construct’.”
Nooo. For a teacher you seem to find reading plain English difficult.
I said that your mother was a “mythical construct” in the sense that you may be making the whole thing up to bolster a weak argument.
Even if you really did talk to her about this and she said what you claim, her’s is ONE opinion against the many others I have heard from folks who lived in the fifties who would not agree.
“Again this is a value position. ”
Repeat after me Paul. ALL POLITICAL POSITIONS ARE VALUE POSITIONS INCLUDING PAULS.
“You CAN NOT claim one set of beliefs to be held above all others.”
Of course I can. And I do. Get over it.
“What you are seeking is an absolute truth, and these exist but not where you are trying to apply them.”
Yes they do. It is an absolute truth that the initiation of force against others is wrong. It is an absolute truth that the initiation of fraud is wrong. And these absolute truths can and MUST be applied to government if said government is to be just.
Now this thread is dead, and I will offer no further replies. Answers to any questions you have about how a just government would work in practice can be found here: http://www.libertarianz.org.nz/
Vote:October 22nd, 2008 at 6:16 pm
But do they know for a fact, or is it simply their opinion. Seemingly all ‘opinion’ surrounding this Truman show is the only ‘opinion’ that is allowed any credence. I’m starting to like this line that my mother is a mythical construct, that would make me, well Jesus really wouldn’t it.
Great the Truman Show is coming to an end, the credits are rolling, but there are still many unanswered questions – who, what, why, where and how does one provide for x,y and z government functions without taxation.
Seemingly unwilling to provide the answers the producers of the Truman Show close production.
Vote:October 22nd, 2008 at 11:24 pm
Oh snap!! Lee mastered the debate and Paul embarrassed himself.
How did Labour get away with this scandal?
Vote:October 23rd, 2008 at 2:37 am
Labour hasn’t adequately answered why their cabinet ministers approved this citizenship application.
Time for some honest answers.
Vote:October 23rd, 2008 at 8:47 am
And OECD, if that’s what you call snap, holly shit this country is for the ruin if National ever makes a government again.
Religious dogmatic pre conventional argument along the lines of “because I said so” isn’t debte, it’s masturbate!
His inability to acknowledge any evidence presented other than his own (his stats even finish at 1999 – of fucking convenient, since then all the stats he was trying to say were bad showed decline) displays arrogance and ignorance, neither of which is the path to enlightened debate.
BTW, the whole media thought this was a scam by Wishart and it was, they don’t give a shit and boy it is so last years news that’s how much they care about it. Why wasn’t it pushed to the hilt by National, because National also took money from the guy and wrote a letter of support – funny, this was about a religious fundy with paranoid delusions managing to give horn fascinations to the disaffected delusional rabid right.
Oh BTW how’s the headline “National MP in Racist Comment Row”, that got more traction sunshine.
Vote:October 23rd, 2008 at 10:47 pm
The media really has a case to answer regarding bias.
Lockwood repeats some harmless comments that employers have passed on to him regarding the Chinese and Pacific Island communities and the New Zealand media go “Ape Shit Crazy”.
Labour Ministers take backhanders from the same Chinese and Pacific Island communities and barely a peep out of the same media. Hels is right when she says it’s a matter of Trust.
You can Trust Labour to be ABSOLUTELY CORRUPT.
Time to vote the CORRUPT LABOUR PARASITES out of office.
Vote:October 24th, 2008 at 9:21 am
Racism isn’t harmless, and even more damaging when it comes from someone in office.
Sunshine get your facts right, National took money from the Wishart guy too and wrote a letter of support – no different from Labour in that respect.
The media is not biased, how many times have I heard that. The problem is that the right wing ideology of everyone else is at fault just doesn’t cut it with thinking people.
BTW how’s Rodney ‘I too have broken Parliamentary Law’ Hide today. Electoral Commission found him out, but look here a politician only needs to wait it out 6 months and hope they don’t get caught to avoid prosecution. Talk about one law from them and another for us. Cheating bastard and all the while he was using the ‘ignorance of the law isn’t a defence’ line against Winnie – what’s his excuse today. I see DPF is stating there is a difference between free money from a trust and free money via an office – hmmm pretty similar to me.
Vote:October 24th, 2008 at 9:27 am
Lockwood is a fucking old tool. No-one is arging that toss paul, except you.
What is under debate is why has LABOUR allowed an identity fraud immigrant into the country outside of the normal channels?
Perhaps you would like to comment?
Vote:October 25th, 2008 at 6:50 am
Another update on one of Labour’s many CORRUPTION SCANDALS:
Chinese political donor given VIP citizenship ceremony
Talk about Labour being the party of privileged. Privilege for sale.
Vote:October 25th, 2008 at 9:19 am
Paul is being very misleading here.
The crime stats I posted went up to 2005.
More to the point, the issue that we were arguing about was whether or not there had been a major rise in poor social and family stats since the 1950′s and ALL of the stats I posted showed that this was in fact the case. Minor fluctuations are not the point, the overall trend is, and the overall trends proved that I was right. Paul’s initial claim that there was no difference between poor social and family stats now than in the fifties was exposed as false.
He is also being misleading in other ways. He talks about others being unwilling to debate, and about supposed “religious dogma”, but anyone going back through this thread can see that several times Paul changes his position. He starts out saying there is no difference between the fifties and now. Then he is forced by the stats I show to admit that there is, so then he claims he does not care because his liberal dogma says that rising divorce and abortion are good things. Then he changes his story again saying that there is no difference between the fifties and now because all the bad social/family issues were rampant then, but they were not recorded. Well, if they were not recorded, how can he know? He demands up to the minute evidence from me, but makes statements like that which he cannot know and cannot show a shred of evidence for.
He demands I show him how a libertarian political system would work, and having better things to do with my time I post a link to the Libertarianz web site which has the answers to his questions. He ignores it and claims I am not answering his questions. That is deceptive to say the least.
He says other’s are not allowed to bring “dogma” into a debate, then does so himself.
He denounces strongly held beliefs in others, but reserves the right to hold his own.
Paul is a dishonest troll playing word games. Ignore him.
Vote:October 25th, 2008 at 9:30 am
The UK has a problem with crime stats as well:
Police miscount serious violence
It helps if the police can count correctly in the first place.
Vote:October 25th, 2008 at 9:35 am
TGIF’s latest information on the Chinese Gangster will be causing some concern in Wellington.
It won’t be picked up by the MSM because no-one from National has suggested that Asian Gangsters,
have smaller hands that Caucasian Gangsters!
So wonder who was the Labour MP caught on film with multiple SMALL HANDED, Chines Prostitutes?
Oh hang on it’s all about trust! Maybe there was more than one Labour MP compromised!
We can trust them all, can’t we?
Vote:October 25th, 2008 at 9:41 am
No Minister covers the additional news as well:
Well Done Wishart
The scandal that keeps on giving.
Vote:October 28th, 2008 at 9:44 am
Lee you are a sanctimonious C.
I did NOT claim that there are “no difference between poor social and family stats now than in the fifties”. That was your interpretation, and considering the inability of you to see past your own nose, that doesn’t surprise me.
The stats you supplied did not go up to 2005, the divorce stats clearly finish at 1999, I didn’t say the crime stats, I criticised your crime stats because they were the insanity sentencing trusts interpretation of the stats, I went to the primary source.
Nob fucking twat c, I DID NOT SAY THERE WAS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN NOW AND 1950S SOCIAL ILLS!!!!!!
I said those things EXISTED then, you clearly claimed they didn’t because remember your primary sources (which you are allowed and I am not) didn’t know of those things in the 1950!!
I NEVER CHANGED MY POSITION – You great f norman!
AGAIN You F ignoramus, any social historian, health researcher etc will be able to tell you that those things happened. MY FUCKING GRANDMOTHER WAS A VICTIM OF ABUSE AND VIOLENCE, but the police never dealt with it, because it was a ‘domestic’ incident.
You are unwilling to accept that statistics show a declining trend in most of the so called social ills you talk about, but you aren’t willing to accept them, in the face of overwhelming statistics (since everyone else but you aren’t allowed primary sources).
I have no dogma, if argument is convincing I can be swayed on most issues (bar the death penalty), however I don’t hold a first clause religious dogma holding me back from discourse or debate.
Vote:October 28th, 2008 at 9:46 am
“The scandal that fails to deliver”
Overwhelmed by how underwhelming it has been – just like a Key election campaign.
Vote:October 28th, 2008 at 10:33 am
Still lots of dirty on this issue. Labour has failed to answer the questions put to it. Labour just doesn’t look fit for government at the moment. They can’t be trusted.
Vote:October 30th, 2008 at 4:14 am
First you have Labour MP’s taking backhanders from questionable migrant applicants and then you have Winston Peters seeking positions for his rich mates in return for cash.
The CLARK/PETERS AXIS has a lot to answer for.
Vote:October 30th, 2008 at 9:46 am
OECD, national also took money and wrote a letter in support of him.
How many shares did Key finally remember he has in Kiwi Rail. How long was ACT getting free rent?
They are all dirty buggers, some a just nicer dirty buggers
Vote:October 30th, 2008 at 10:01 am
I think you’ll find that the CLARK/PETERS AXIS are the dirty bastards. It is those two parties that are systematically CORRUPT. Both abuse the power of office/ Thankfully they’re going to get the shock of a lifetime by getting booted unceremoniously out of office on 8 November. Which is good.
Vote:November 3rd, 2008 at 7:50 pm
Yawn
Vote:November 5th, 2008 at 6:29 am
You’re a boring person Paul. On Saturday you’ll be a confirmed loser as well when your precious Labour party gets booted out of office. Ha ha ha.
This citizenship scandal is but one of the reasons why you and Labour will lose on 8 November.
Have fun, LOSER!.
Vote:November 7th, 2008 at 5:07 am
All the polls show that CORRUPTION doesn’t pay.
Labour are going to lose this election and lose spectacularly.
The blame for the defeat will lie squarely at the feet of one Helen Clark
Vote: