Herald on Student Allowances

October 15th, 2008 at 10:00 am by David Farrar

The Herald editorial is very good on :

Yet the Prime Minister has now confirmed a government would spend $420 million to phase in a universal student allowance over the next four years. This is ill-conceived, unnecessary and unaffordable. In sum, it is an exercise in irresponsibility by a party that has been all too keen to preach fiscal prudence.

It is massively irresponsible. I am actually a supporter of ending parental means testing, but why in God’s name did Clark not end it when there were $10 billion surpluses. Doing so then would have been universally applauded. But doing it when you are forecasting a decade of deficits is madness.

In many ways, the progressive lifting of the parental income threshold – the lead-in to a universal allowance in 2012 – actually represents a more sensible means of helping students than the lifting of interest on loans.

It is much more sensible. Interest free loans is a bad policy. It gives out bad incentives to borrow. Removing parental means testing is more sensible as few can argue a 24 year old is reliant on their parents.

One of the Vice-Chancellors was quoted as saying NZ spends around three times as much in direct student assistance (as a percentage of total tertiary spending) than the OECD average. What this means is instead of investing in the tertiary instiutions (allowing them to keep fees down), they are giving cash hand outs to students with interest free loans etc.

The answer is the level of tuition fees charged for courses. A steep rise in these has occurred since an increasing number of school-leavers began to seek tertiary education, much of it for trade training. If more of the latter was reclaimed through apprenticeships and suchlike, the cost to the public of tertiary education would drop, and lower fees could be introduced.

Indeed.

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108 Responses to “Herald on Student Allowances”

  1. Shunda barunda (2,965 comments) says:

    “but why in God’s name did Clark not end it when there were $10 billion surpluses.”

    Cause she wasn’t at risk of losing an election, this is a blatant bribe and one every self respecting student should reject.
    Labour has had 9 years to help students and only now that their re-election is in doubt has this come out.
    More policy that will only appeal to the selfish, lazy, and irresponsible.

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  2. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “This is ill-conceived, unnecessary and unaffordable. In sum, it is an exercise in irresponsibility”

    The “students” like it tho. I read where Klark received a rock star welcome at Otago university yesterday. Its time education returned to its roots, and ceased being in the main an induction into how to think like a socialist.

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  3. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    “But doing it when you are forecasting a decade of deficits is madness”

    I wouldn’t have thought you that critical of National’s lolly scramble next year. Oh well I guess we can all change.

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  4. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    “time education returned to its roots”

    Universities have always been (since only about Greek times) a hot bed of political debate and forum.

    Don’t worry they many will grow up, get nice jobs, kids, mortgages and by the time they’ve been lied to 10,000 times by politicians and the odd ulcer they eventually see the light and vote ACT or National.

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  5. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    “blatant bribe” I’d go for them any day over lies.

    And they say that crime starts with tagging etc, bollocks, it starts with political lies and Key was metaphorically tagging the tv screen last night with his colourful interpretation of the so called facts.

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  6. Shunda barunda (2,965 comments) says:

    “Its time education returned to its roots, and ceased being in the main an induction into how to think like a socialist.”

    Exactly, this is just another attempt at engineering societey to vote left, they couldn’t give a stuff about education its more about student culture than anything else.
    It instills a hand out mentality even among the educated thus ensuring NZ becomes even softer and encourging people to piss away the inovation that has given NZ its competitive advantage.

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  7. wreck1080 (3,730 comments) says:

    This is what I believe for what it’s worth.

    - Crap courses abolished. Media studies, whats that?
    - Enrolment incentives abolished, (eg, free laptops)
    - Reintroduction of common University entrance exams to filter out the thickees.
    - University fees and allowances performance based … you fail , you pay. Performing students pay no fees, and receive full allowances.
    - Bums on seats policy dropped.
    - Those failing Universtity entrance exams, can still qualify to attend by opting to pay full course fees and forgo allowances. You fail, you pay.

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  8. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Universities have always been (since only about Greek times) a hot bed of political debate and forum.”

    As usual, out there in uninformed mainstream media sucking five years behind the times left wing la la land, you completely misunderstand the point. Under the control of the left, they’ve never been a “hot bed of political debate” More the exact opposite, a one track induction process into socialism where alternative views are shut down and Stalinist speech codes are used to control thought. Why do you think all of the freedom on campus movements have sprung up lately?? Uninformed time wasting troglodyte.

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  9. Lee (627 comments) says:

    Paul,

    you keep talking about “lies”. Why don’t you front up and give us a specific example, and your proof that it is a lie?

    How about this for a lie. “I will not ban smacking.” Helen Clark before the 2005 election.

    How about this one. “The anti-smacking legislation is only about extreme cases of child abuse, and not about criminalizing parents who just give their kids a smack.” Sue Bradford.

    Then less than two months later, when a man was charged for doing nothing more than giving his sons ear a flick, Bradford responded “The new law is working they way I intended it.”

    Lies.

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  10. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “you keep talking about “lies”. Why don’t you front up and give us a specific example, and your proof that it is a lie?”

    He won’t. Just be grateful he’s out there showing everyone with any vestige of intelligence just what utter fuckwits Labour party supporters are.

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  11. Lee (627 comments) says:

    Anyone who has attended University knows that far from Paul’s laughable claim that they are “hotbeds of political debate”, they are in fact little more than left wing re-education camps. A mixture of PC speech codes and outright bullying has reduced any real debate to a bare minimum. This is especially true on issues like sexuality, gender, Islam, the Israel/Palestine issue, and a few others where only the views of the far left are considered valid, and any contrary stance puts a student in danger of failing their courses or charges of so-called “human rights” violations.

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  12. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Easy Lee. Helen Clark does not have a worse environmental record than GW Bush. That’s a lie that’s been bandied about by toilet mouth Hooton for a while now.

    http://concernedoflinwood.wordpress.com/2008/01/28/matthew-hooton-is-an-idiot-andor-liar/

    Simple clean facts for ya.

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  13. grumpyoldhori (2,410 comments) says:

    I am a tribal Labour type.
    But these whining bloody students at universities give me the bloody shits.
    What the hell is this, we are owed a education at university, what bloody taxes
    have you paid to be owed a bloody thing.
    Christ, do it this way, fund the degrees that we NEED fully, and yes pay those students a allowance.
    But for you bloody wimps who do not have the drive to grab an engineering degree and want to take media studies, you pay in full, do it at part time .

    Oh a question, should it be only those white collar types sitting inside ivy walls who get any dosh ?
    Or should young blokes like my young nephews who have started a business get the same wonderful wads of cash ? if not,why not ?

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  14. Shunda barunda (2,965 comments) says:

    “How about this for a lie. “I will not ban smacking.” Helen Clark before the 2005 election.

    How about this one. “The anti-smacking legislation is only about extreme cases of child abuse, and not about criminalizing parents who just give their kids a smack.” Sue Bradford.”

    Yes the left are fundamentaly “truth challenged” what gets me is they can lie through their teeth like this and get away with it!!
    I guess the idea is to be so confident at talking crap that you believe your own bulls#@t and to get angry at anyone who questions you like old winnie the poo.

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  15. Scott (1,707 comments) says:

    Actually universities often began as theological colleges to train ministers and pastors. It is only relatively recently that they have become hotbeds of radical socialism. However they come out of a world view grounded in theology — the desire to have discussion about the nature of God.

    Some examples will suffice –The University of Oxford in England is one of the oldest universities in the world. According to legend its origins began in the eighth century when King Alfred the great happened to meet some monks there and had a scholarly debate that lasted for several days.
    However more reliably historians believe it to have been founded in the 12th century — the initial faculties of learning were theology, law, medicine and the liberal arts.
    From early days the University had strong links with several religious orders in the town of Oxford — the Dominican’s and Franciscan’s.
    The divinity school was built around 1426.
    Colleges of the university include — All Souls (1438), Christchurch (1546), Jesus (1571), and St Peters (1947). Famous Oxford students include theologians John Wesley and Cardinal Wolseley, scientists Edmund Hayley and Robert Boyle and prime ministers William Pitt, Antony Eden and Margaret Thatcher.
    The university’s theological foundations are expressed in its motto –
    Dominus Illuminatio Mea
    “The Lord is my Light”

    Another example is Harvard University in the United States which is that country’s oldest university, founded in 1638. The name Harvard comes from Robert Harvard, a puritan Minister who left money to found the college, originally set up for the training of Christian ministers. The official university motto today is veritas — meaning truth.
    But on the official university seal veritas didn’t stand alone. It was joined to three other Latin words: christo et ecclesiae. The whole motto translated into English read: “Truth . . . for Christ and the church.”
    This official motto, adopted by the university in 1692, was consistent with Robert Harvard’s original vision for its educational purpose.

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  16. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Lee of course what you are saying is complete and utter bullshit. With that level of hate speech you should be Bill O’Riely’s speech writer. There’s never too many women or muslims in the world to put down is there.

    I see the Key – lets all lie our asses off is rubbing off on you nicely. Delusional idiot/bigoted wanker.

    You want more.

    Key Lied about productivity.

    Key lied about tasers. They are NOT a ‘non lethal’ option. I was in Vancouver when an innocent man was killed with a taser, it was on the tv everyday and it was hideous.

    Shop keepers aren’t the most dangerous job in NZ – he lied.

    Violent crime in NZ is up, but 99% of that comes from family violence, not random attacks on the street – lie

    shall I keep going.

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  17. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Scott, actually (imagine my best twatty condescending voice here), the greeks were debating political issues even before said monks had a jesus to follow.

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  18. milo (538 comments) says:

    Paul, you are providing assertions, not facts. Let’s see if you can back up even one.,

    What’s your evidence that 99% of reported violent crime is from family violence.

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  19. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Shunda

    I agree, they all lie and it’s simply not good enough.

    However there is a fundamental difference between accusing someone of doing something, like Key did with the GW Bush comments, like he did about other things Helen’s supposedly done during her term and the going back on your word.

    He stood up in front of the country and actively lied his ass off. Going back on your word isn’t the same (still not excuseable – but big fundamental difference)

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  20. Short Shriveled and Slightly to the Left (762 comments) says:

    In last night’s debate I’m sure I heard John Key say that 1 in 5 NZ kids can’t read, write and add. I was amazed no one questioned it. Maybe I misheard it.

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  21. slightlyrighty (2,496 comments) says:

    Paul.

    A long baton is a non-lethal option, as is a torch, but people have died from it’s application. A taser is a non lethal option that can be used where the only other option was a lethal option, that being a firearm.

    Yes a taser is not pleasant, it is certainly not designed to be so, and there is a chance that, even when used properly, the target may die. A firearm, if used properly, WILL kill you.

    As to shopkeepers being in harms way, Can you imagine opening your own business every day, not knowing if today some P crazed nutjob could come in and kill you for the few hundred dollars in your register? Can you imagine the fear that these shopkeepers feel which leads them to take steps such as arming themselves with clubs and the like? Can you imagine the loss of faith they feel in the authorities tasked to protect them?

    Sure the police, fire service and armed forces place themselves in harms way, but they do so after training, and they continue to train to better themselves. They have the back-up of their colleagues, and the use of designed equipment and weaponry at their disposal.

    Think of the owner of your local store. I would not do his job for all the tea in china.

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  22. Murray (8,838 comments) says:

    Clark is out of touch, she thinks universities are what they were when she was sponging of us herself.

    This policy has gained no traction with any of the students I know because forstly they get nothing because they’ll graduate before it comes in and secondly because most of them have worked out they’ll be paying the tax that pays for it.

    Bugger all of them plan to vote Labour.

    But they’re still looking for someone to vote for.

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  23. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Milo, I don’t have the time, go to the police web site yourself. I heard the interview with the police commissioner on National Radio who explained the increase in reported violent crime.

    “Police say an 11.1 per cent increase in violence offences in the year to June is due almost entirely to family violence, which recorded a 29 per cent rise in the same period” (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10535318)

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  24. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Can anyone here back up Key’s lies with facts as you seem so ready for me to do?

    Show me where Clark’s environmental record is worse than GW Bush.

    Show me where power has doubled under Helen.

    (what is that the errie silence you see in cowboy movies, ah a tumbling weed rolling through the silence).

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  25. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Murray. So Key went to University, was he sponging off us too?

    “This policy has gained no traction with any of the students” You were there at Otago with the 1500 other students were you. You’ve actually talked to one student who isn’t in Young Nats or Campus ACT?

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  26. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    errie silence………

    swishing noices, gentle breeze…….

    ah the sound of silence, the great defence of Key’s lies is rather blissful

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  27. Lee (627 comments) says:

    Paul,

    The US’s emissions are going down, ours are going up. Therefore Clark’s record IS worse than Bush’s.

    “Lee of course what you are saying is complete and utter bullshit.”

    Prove it.

    ” With that level of hate speech you should be Bill O’Riely’s speech writer. There’s never too many women or muslims in the world to put down is there.”

    What hate speech? I simply mentioned a few issues, and said nothing at all about my own stance on them.

    “Delusional idiot/bigoted wanker.” Sounds like hate speech to me :)

    If all you can do is throw around personal abuse and name calling, then your just proving my point.

    None of the examples you gave prove any lies. Violent random crimes ARE up.

    Opinions about Tasers are just that, opinion. Used properly, they are not lethal. According to your argument, an apple is a lethal weapon because eaten incorrectly a person might choke and die.

    On the issue of productivity, Helen said nine years ago that she would raise NZ’s standing in the OECD ranks. We have in fact fallen.

    “Scott, actually (imagine my best twatty condescending voice here), the greeks were debating political issues even before said monks had a jesus to follow.”

    Debating issues is not the same as having a university. The university was a creation of European medieval society primarily for theological training.

    Oh, and the Hebrew prophets were debating politics long before the greeks.

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  28. mygumboot (18 comments) says:

    $420 million.. Yesterday Winston told the students at Waikato University that Helen had stolen his policy, but had under costed it. His Universal Allowance Scheme would come in at $750 million..The students cheered.

    One brave bloke told Winston he didn’t want an allowance paid by regular working NZers. Winston told him to give it back to him..via the Spencer trust I suppoes.

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  29. PaulL (5,873 comments) says:

    Paul, you want facts. I don’t see you providing any.

    1. Helen’s record on the environment is worse than GW Bush. Well, on some measures it is. Your link shows no different – it deliberately shifts to using raw numbers rather than percentages. OK, that shows that on some other measures it isn’t worse. The fact we are even debating it means that Helen loses – I mean NZ should have a far better record given all the govt intervention – the US didn’t even try to do anything and had a better record.

    2. Tasers are a non-lethal option. Your suggestion that very occasionally someone dies from a taser, and therefore they aren’t non-lethal, is ridiculous. Maybe you should get some understanding of what non-lethal means – it doesn’t mean that “in no circumstances could anyone ever die when being hit by a taser.” Otherwise, absolutely no piece of police equipment would be considered non-lethal, and therefore the term would become meaningless.

    3. Violent crime is up. You agree with that statement, then tell us it is a lie. What drugs are you taking?

    4. Shopkeeping is the most dangerous job in NZ. Have you heard of hyperbole? I’m sure at least one person has a more dangerous job, but again, if you’re going to hold to that standard then we may as well stop having conversations at all. It is definitely more dangerous than most mainstream professions.

    5. What do you reckon the lie about productivity is? Our productivity growth has absolutely dropped under this current government. Are you denying that?

    I’m thinking that you are spending too much time over at the Standard. I think you’ll find that once you get out of that echo chamber you’ll need to support your assertions with actual facts. I can see that you are unhappy that Key did well in the debate, but that doesn’t automatically mean he was lying. It’s like Carol over at Trotter’s blog, who was really surprised that it sounded in the debate like Key had a reasonable plan for dealing with the economy, but she attributed that to a failure of the format, because she “knew” that he didn’t. Hmmmm.

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  30. Lee (627 comments) says:

    Paul has actually given us a perfect example of what is wrong with our universities, and, rather stupidly, proven the very point that was being made.

    Any debate about the kinds of issues I raised, ANY dessent against the far left and secular liberalism, is automatically labeled “hate speech”, before the debate has even started!!!

    Thanks Paul :)

    Nice to see you have an open mind. Oh wait, is that your brain falling out? :)

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  31. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Lee, I’ve been asked to back my fact up, could you too please. And please tell me how a country that produced incredibly more emissions than us is better than us. But I’m not just talking emissions.

    “mentioned a few issues” and these are prevalent issues on campuses everyday. And they are different to other social, political, economic or scientific issues how?

    Key stated as FACT that Tasters are ‘non lethal’. Lie

    He still lied about productivity

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  32. slightlyrighty (2,496 comments) says:

    Tasters are non lethal, Paul. I have yet to see a taster deployed by police however. Would that be a wine taster Paul?

    Perhaps the $47 mil towards literacy is a bit late?

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  33. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    “This is especially true on issues like sexuality, gender, Islam, the Israel/Palestine issue, and a few others where only the views of the far left are considered valid” This isn’t factual, this is pure fantasy of the right.

    But by hi-lighting these issues you have deliberately chosen issues that will by the very nature of them offend or malign people. I wasn’t shutting down debate about these topics, I was debating your assertions that only left wing analysis is applied to these topics. I’d love you to back these claims up with the facts as so readily demanded of me.

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  34. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    Why do you let this ranting fuckwit set the agenda?? Laff him away. He’s not got one skerrick of credibility, but you give him that when you address his lunacy with serious argument.

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  35. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Tasters are non lethal – wrong.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Dziekański_Taser_incident

    I watched this man die on national news in Vancouver from a Taser.

    PaulL “Violent crime is up” yes and all of that increase comes from the increased reporting of family violence. Key wants you to think it’s not safe to walk the streets – bollocks.

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  36. PaulL (5,873 comments) says:

    Paul, what was the lie about productivity?

    Tasers are considered a non-lethal option by the police. You quoted the police as evidence for one of your earlier facts – which ironically supported John Key’s statement – why is that not good enough on this one?

    How about you try a little harder – you obviously have enough time to write a comment every 5 seconds on this thread, maybe you should write fewer comments and spend a little time researching so that you can substantiate what you are claiming. So far you have not produced one single substantiate lie by John Key, although you have identified a couple of examples of hyperbole and generalisation.

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  37. PaulL (5,873 comments) says:

    Paul: your argument is that Key lied about violent crime. Because he said violent crime is up, which is factually correct. But you believe he really wanted us to believe that “it isn’t safe to walk the streets”, and once you know that is what he really meant, then clearly it is a lie, because it is actually safe to walk the streets sometimes if you do it in daylight in a good part of town.

    I really hope your facts on the other items are better than this.

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  38. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    “Shopkeeping is the most dangerous job in NZ” OMFG. and you got that from the ACC workplace statistics?

    Productivity (http://www.stats.govt.nz/NR/rdonlyres/DD3F881A-F988-4D10-8EC0-DD16FE41B76D/34894/productivity19782007alltables.xls) Productivity is up 15%

    If what is at the standard is the truth and that offends so, don’t vote National its very simple. and sorry sunshine I can think for myself.

    Key did well during the debate, no argument there. But he lied. A definition of a lie is to not tell the truth. He didn’t tell the truth, and he knew it.

    New Zealand isn’t the last cab off the ranks with respect to bank guarantees, as stated by Key.

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  39. Lee (627 comments) says:

    But by hi-lighting these issues you have deliberately chosen issues that will by the very nature of them offend or malign people.”

    What utter crap. How does debating issues “offend” or “malign” people? Constantly taking offense is just another way to stifle debate. And given that your neither a Muslim or a women, what right have you got to claim they will always be offended?

    Do you think that women’s rights activists who oppose the oppression of women in Islamic society, and practices such honour killings and genital mutilation, should shut up in case they offend Muslims?

    Should Kiwis shut up about whaling in case we offend the Japanese?

    Should people who oppose suicide bombings shut up because they will offend terrorists?

    Would opposing the mass murder of Jews in WW2 have been wrong because doing so offended the Nazis???

    Good Lord man, you cannot have a free and open society if certain issues are off the table for discussion and debate. That SHOULD be obvious to a rational adult.

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  40. tknorriss (327 comments) says:

    Paul,

    I would be careful about calling others liars when it is well known that those in the green movement exaggerate and distort the truth for their own ends all the time (I note from another post that you are a confessed Green supporter).

    A prime example of this is the pictures we had on the news a while ago of polar bears on icebergs apparently out in the middle of the ocean, with the implication that the poor polar bears were going to drown when the ice melted. It later turned out that those icebergs were actually only a few hundred metres off shore. What about Al Gore’s “Inconvenient Truth” that has been found to be riddled with lies and distortions.

    Yes, even the Green brigade are prepared to lie and distort if it suits their purposes.

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  41. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    PaulL the debate about crime statistics in NZ has been had over the last week. Violent crime is up, yes, 99% of that rise comes from family domestic violence. His inference that it’s no longer safe to walk the streets. He used terms like ‘random violence’ all nicely packaged together in the negative campaign on crime that Key is pushing. The simple fact of the matter is that it isn’t any more dangerous to walk the streets this year than last and the police figures back that up.

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  42. Lee (627 comments) says:

    Paul,

    it has clearly been proven now that your offering assertions, not proof, that Key lied. You have lost. Admit it and move on.

    Also, I gave YOU two examples of Labour and the Greens lying, and you have failed to respond.

    The technical term for that is HYPOCRISY.

    Your a done dinner.

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  43. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    “Tasers are considered a non-lethal option by the police” Ah so ‘considering’ something makes it so.

    I consider myself a safe driver over 100km/hr.

    I consider small amounts of marijuana acceptable

    Nice to know I have the ‘consider’ option open to me next time stopped by a cop

    Lee “debating issues “offend” or “malign. Yes if you were debating, you weren’t debating you were putting up sections of society up for the all too familiar ridicule, and that is offensive.

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  44. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    tknorriss, the Polar beer issue wasn’t presented by Helen Clark or the Greens on national TV as facts lie Key tried to with so much of his rubbish last night

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  45. Murray (8,838 comments) says:

    Key went out and got a job, Clark is a perpetual sponge smear boy.

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  46. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    “I gave YOU two examples of Labour and the Greens lying” wtf, that looked like assertions to me.

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  47. Lee (627 comments) says:

    Here are the facts Paul, official Police crime stats from June 2007 to June 2008.

    The overall number of violent crimes increased by 11.1% or by almost 6,000.

    The number of grievous assaults (the most serious) increased by 11.7%

    The number of homicides increased by 16.7%

    The violent crime rate per 10,000 pop increased by 10.0%

    Family violence does NOT account for the total number of assualts and homicides.

    Therefore Key did not lie.

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  48. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Oh so Murray, PM isn’t a real job. Glad to see that Key has designs on becoming a “sponge smear”

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  49. tknorriss (327 comments) says:

    Paul,

    Can you put your hand on your heart and say that the Greens or Labour have NEVER sensationalised, taken out of context, or misrepresented some information for political effect?

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  50. PaulL (5,873 comments) says:

    Sorry Paul, you’re wasting my and everyone else’s time. You’re wrong, you will never admit it. You’ve provided nothing, your links in general don’t support your assertions.

    For example, your productivity link shows that multi-factor productivity has been flat since 2003 (OK, if you really want to quibble I’ll accept “grew a bit in 2005, and has been going down slightly since”), capital productivity is declining slightly, labour productivity flat since 2005. I believe multi-factor productivity is the one most quoted.

    So, I’ll stop now. If I see you come up with some vaguely accurate statement that attempts to show exactly what was a lie about even one of John Key’s statements, I might engage again. As a wee tip – an argument generally is of the format:
    John Key said “xxxxxx” – where xxxxx is a direct quote
    It was wrong because the fact is yyyyyy, as found in this attached link.

    Note that your fact needs to not be an arguable point, because that is just using different sources, it doesn’t make John Key a liar. If there are 4 other statistics in that same link that say different and you cherry picked the one you like, then you aren’t proving anything.

    And it is poor form to call someone a liar in relation to a spoken debate if you are picking up a misspeak, or something that has a common understanding but that you are attributing a nit picking argument to. So, for example, arguing that tasers aren’t non-lethal, when everyone understands non-lethal in the context of a conversation about tasers. That isn’t an example of lying, it is an example of a presentation method that doesn’t allow footnotes, caveats and detailed explanations.

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  51. slightlyrighty (2,496 comments) says:

    Paul (1170) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
    October 15th, 2008 at 11:33 am

    Tasters are non lethal – wrong.

    Paul.

    You show me one example where a taster was deployed to lethal effect.
    :) :) :) :)

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  52. Lee (627 comments) says:

    Paul,

    nope, they are both on record. Helen said she would not ban smacking. Bradford said the anti-smacking law would only criminalise people for extreme violent abuse. I heard her say this several times, and you can look up tv and print interviews where she said it.

    THEN, when a guy was arrested for flicking his sons ear, she responded on print that this was the actual intention of the legislation.

    LIES.

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  53. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Lee

    67 were murdered in 2001/2002
    54 were murdered in 2007/2008 (source NBR)

    Homicides were up on last year, but down considerably over the long term.

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  54. Chthoniid (2,028 comments) says:

    Productivity (http://www.stats.govt.nz/NR/rdonlyres/DD3F881A-F988-4D10-8EC0-DD16FE41B76D/34894/productivity19782007alltables.xls) Productivity is up 15%

    Pedantically speaking, the growth rate in productivity has declined, not the overall level.
    This is an issue because much of the early growth initiatives launched by the Government were intended to increase this growth rate.

    I don’t believe that Key has lied. You will find other commentators talking about declines in productivity and they are referring to the rate of growth, not the level. It’s reasonably common and I think you are drawing quite a long bow to target this as a point of deceit.

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  55. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    slightlyrighty

    for the third time today

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Dziekański_Taser_incident

    I saw an Innocent man tasered and killed. For nothing, not a single blooy thing wrong.

    Go to my blog the video is still there for all to see. I caused one hell of an outrage in Canada and rightly so

    warning, you see an innocent man die

    http://concernedoflinwood.wordpress.com/2007/11/15/warning-tasers-kill-warning-graphic-content/

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  56. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Amnesty International concluded in their annual report that by 2007 270 people in the USA alone.

    Lethal

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  57. Lee (627 comments) says:

    Paul said

    Lee “debating issues “offend” or “malign. Yes if you were debating, you weren’t debating you were putting up sections of society up for the all too familiar ridicule, and that is offensive.”

    Again what utter crap. I was highlighting those issues that the left tries to shut down debate on. And again, I NEVER once said what my stand on the issues in question was, so your claim I’m indulging in hate speech is a LIE.

    At NO point ANYWHERE in my post do I do anything like what you claim. My god man, you talk about Key lying then you brazenly whip out a total lie about my post. I guess lying is fine if its in the service of political correctness.

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  58. david (2,539 comments) says:

    Paul,

    Don’t be a total prat.

    Unless of course you want to spray the accusation of “liar” around a bit wider.

    May I (not very respectfully) draw your attention to Hansard. Wednesday 24 October 2007, Questions for Oral Answer, Question 6:

    “Hon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Police): …… closed-circuit television surveillance and liquor bans in central business districts; and the trial of a non-lethal option, the Taser, to name but a few. However, as every member in this House knows, it is simply not possible to fully ensure the safety of officers. Policing is a dangerous job.”

    Your shallow and unreasoned postings here throw into sharp relief the deficiencies in our education system. If you are tertiary qualified you are walking evidence that the worth of my 9 years of study has been massively devalued. If you are not, I seriously suggest that you enroll in some adult education opportunity.

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  59. Lee (627 comments) says:

    ‘The United Nations said that thousands of people had died worldwide choking on food and called for a global ban on eating.

    Ban Ki said, “Food, its lethal”.

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  60. tknorriss (327 comments) says:

    Paul,

    Talking in a general sense, tasers are designed to be non-lethal, compared to a hand-gun, for instance. Just because there is the occassional case where someone does die, does not detract from the intent of the device and it’s general effect as a non-lethal solution. I believe most reasonable people would use the phrase “non-lethal” within this context.

    Would you prefer the police to have hand-guns so they could finish the job properly?

    BTW, still waiting for an answer to my last post. Or is that too embarrassing for you?

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  61. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    In that case King is a liar too.

    Tasers are a lethal option.

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  62. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Oh so we are going from definitively ‘non lethal’ to ‘considered’ and “in a general sense”

    Short answer, they all lie and they are all blood hypocrites. They malign taggers and the like as the start of a road to dishonesty in NZ, yet a very simple repeated lie by ANY politician is seen as acceptable any day in the political world.

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  63. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    “non-lethal” isn’t contextual. It’s like saying Cocaine in my house is contextually alright.

    Tasers kill people. No police shouldn’t have them, and not they shouldn’t be armed. Yes policing is a difficult job, I will never argue against that, but nobody is holding a gun (excuse the pun) to their head to do the work. Good on them for doing it, just dont’ use a bloody taser and think that it’s not ever going to kill someone

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  64. slightlyrighty (2,496 comments) says:

    What is it Paul, Tasers or Tasters?

    Make up your mind will you!

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  65. Lee (627 comments) says:

    “Hi, I’m Paul. EVERYONE except me is a liar. ANYONE who disagrees with me is a liar. ALL debate on any issues currently of importance to Western civilization is hate speech and MUST be stopped!!! Anyone criticizing suicide bombing against Israeli citizens is being offensive to Muslims and MUST be silenced.”

    Thanks for confirming my opinion that the Green Party is made of jackbooted Stalinist freedom haters.

    Bye bye now! :)

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  66. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    “Ban Ki said, “Food, its lethal”” WTF, what orifice did you pull that gem out of?

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  67. stephen (4,063 comments) says:

    Won’t anyone think of the students?

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  68. OllieGI (36 comments) says:

    I’m a student, wouldn’t the obvious answer make fees free, rand get rid of the interest free loans? that way, the only money required by students would be accommodation, so they can learn to work for that money.

    As a student, it is SO easy to get $150 per week interest free, it doesn’t even feel like a loan! no wonder we are maxing out our credit cards and getting unaffordable mortgages.

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  69. tknorriss (327 comments) says:

    By your argument Paul, hand-cuffs could be considered a lethal option as it is probably possible to think of circumstances where hand-cuffs could result in the death of someone. So we should do away with hand-cuffs too?

    Still waiting for an answer Paul. Can you put your hand on your heart and state that both Labour and the Greens have NEVER told any lies?

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  70. Kimble (4,379 comments) says:

    Tasers can kill people, so Paul calls them lethal.

    But citrus is lethal. So are buckets. So is anything solid dropped from 20,000 feet. Do we need to describe citrus as lethal fruit?

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  71. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Slightly wank – so you’re picking up on a spelling mistake over an hour ago. Sorry my dyslexia offends you so and thank you for contributing to the debate about tasers.

    “You show me one example where a taster was deployed to lethal effect” I did and you come back with spelling mistakes – pathetic

    “Anyone criticizing suicide bombing against Israeli citizens” Your world of fantasy is a little disturbing, Did I use those words or infer that statement of even mention that issue. Calm down sunshine, too early in the day to aggravate your ulcer

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  72. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    tk “Short answer, they all lie and they are all blood hypocrites” do I have repeat myself.

    Kimble, politicians call them non-lethal, like they don’t do anyone any harm ever. I’ve seen an innocent man tasered. Go and watch the bloody video. They took seconds to take out their tasers and within a minute he was dead.

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  73. LabourMustBeLiquidated (288 comments) says:

    Interesting comments about universities re:inculcation of socialist values. I went to uni as an adult student and came to the conclusion that what you have in the main is a bunch of kids who are having one last fling at being radicals before they settle into a life of corporate conformism.

    Btw Paul, why are you so hateful towards tasters? Being a chardonnay socialist I would have thought you considered their services invaluable.

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  74. tknorriss (327 comments) says:

    Paul,

    If you had two options and had to impliment one, which of the following would you choose and why?

    1. Issue hand-guns to every policeman.
    2. Issue tasers to every policeman.

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  75. Shunda barunda (2,965 comments) says:

    Paul why are you defending Helen Clark?
    Labour has been the most brutal defacto husband to your party the greens, they should by rights be had up for battery.
    Do you like being Labours bitch?
    Seriously have some self respect, Labour have used and abused the greens like they have everybody else, they even like Winston better than you!!!!

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  76. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    mm..!..might do that phd/doctorate soon..

    ..’how greed ‘socialised’ the international banking system’..could do as a working title..

    ..a look at how the freemarketeers killed their own ideology..

    ..and ended up being marxists/socialists..

    (nationalised banks..?..anyone..?..)

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  77. PaulL (5,873 comments) says:

    There is a general debate thread phil. Suggest you go there. And, for the record, you’re wrong. Regulation by the left was the largest cause of the problem – socialism once again proved that once you start nationalising, you can’t stop.

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  78. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    “If you had two options”

    Ah the old GW Bush, you’ve only got two options line. Funny issues are than reductionist debate. It isn’t a two choices world or issue to solve.

    “Do you like being Labours bitch” ah the sweet smell of reasoned debate. Hmm lets see, proposed new coal powered station, remove $1b warm house policy, yeah the blue green option is so much more appealing than the red green version.

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  79. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    PaulL sorry sunshine you are wrong. Massive deregulation of the financial sector in the US by GW led to the sub prime problem. Who in their right mind thought giving a mortgage to someone on US welfare with no evidence to be able to repay it was a good idea.

    Don’t blame Wall St hemoraging on the left, this was a massive failure of the right, and funny Kenynesian leftist action is what is saving it.

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  80. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    “why are you so hateful towards tasters? ”

    Funny guy, again picking up on a spelling mistake by a dyslexic nearly an hour and a half ago. Does that make you feel better?

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  81. Mr Nobody NZ (397 comments) says:

    Paul in regards to the Tazers all objects are potentially lethal and which has been recognised by the Security/Policing industry moving away from the term Non-Lethal devices to Less Than Lethal devices. However within the general public Non-Lethal is still the accepted norm and as a result I think you’re grasping here in regards to John Key’s comment.

    You seem to be very anti Tazers, so would ask you three questions:
    1) If you had to be subdued by the Police would you prefer them to:
    A) Club you repeatedly with a baton around the head, body and legs until you stop resisting?
    B) Spray you with pepper spray and if this fails resort to A
    C) Shoot you with a 9mm bullet
    D) Tazer you.

    2) If one of your family members had to be subdued by the Police would you prefer them to do this by:
    A) Clubbing them repeatedly with a baton around the head, body and legs until they stop resisting?
    B) Spray them with pepper spray and if this fails resort to A
    C) Shoot them with a 9mm bullet
    D) Tazer them.

    3) If you were a Police office and had to subdue somebody due to them acting in a threatening or violent manner while potentially acting under the effects of drugs and/or alcohol and armed would you prefer to:
    A) Have to try and get within 1 meter of them and then club them repeatedly with a baton around the head, body and legs
    B) Get to within 3 Meters of them Spray them with Pepper Spray and if this fails have to try and draw and deploy your baton (most officers now carry the collapsible style baton) and then resort to a) or proceed to attempt to do the same with your bare hands.
    C) Shoot them with a 9mm bullet, then undergo a trial by media while every aspect of your personal and professional life gets evaluated, get taken to court by the family because they feel aggrieved with the situation.
    D) Close to within 10 meters of the offender and Tazer them.

    Yes Tazer have a lethal potential but so do all the current options available to Police Officers and Tazer offer an excellent combination to ensure the safety of both the offender and Police officer.

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  82. tknorriss (327 comments) says:

    Paul said ““Short answer, they all lie and they are all blood hypocrites” do I have repeat myself.

    Fair enough, Paul.

    Care to give us a list of some of the lies the Greens have told recently then, if they ALL tell lies.

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  83. Kimble (4,379 comments) says:

    Paul, I dont think you know what you are talking about.

    “Who in their right mind thought giving a mortgage to someone on US welfare with no evidence to be able to repay it was a good idea.”

    Who indeed?

    Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, HUD. Well there is three. The congressman and senators pushing for home ownership among minorities and in poorer areas would be a few hundred more.

    At one stage Fannie Mae was buying 40% of all sub-prime mortgage securities. If they want to buy it, Wall Street will try to sell it to them.

    Precisely what DEregulation caused this problem?

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  84. PaulL (5,873 comments) says:

    Kimble, don’t forget no recourse loans – a one way bet. Who introduced those again?

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  85. calendar girl (1,174 comments) says:

    Paul: you’ve made over 30 comments on this thread! You are obviously obsessed with tasers. I’m sorry that you were exposed to disturbing television coverage of a distant fatality from use of a taser. But your unfortunate personal experience does not make Key a “liar”, and your assertion to the contrary makes you look foolish. The overwhelming majority of NZers, including me, are in favour of police having tasers at their disposal, so try to get over it.

    I detect no signs of dyslexia in your contributions, and I hope that you have no such affliction. You made an understandable typo (as we all do occasionally) but sadly you couldn’t take a bit of humourous ribbing over “wine-tasters”. You attribute your typo to dyslexia, whereas most of us would put it down to your sustaining over 10 impassioned comments per hour on this thread. Time for a spot of rest?

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  86. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    calendar girl

    I have dyslexia. Typos are common place and it gets worse in the evenings, mornings are good (but then I haven’t started drinking at that stage).

    That distant fatality was on my TV while I was living in Vancouver, and the very next night I had to go to the Airport and stand about 5 meters away from where the man was killed to collect my brother – chilling.

    If Key states that they are non lethal and someone has died from them, they are lethal. The overwhelming majority of people wanted to continue with the law banning gay people, did that make them right?

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  87. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    “10 impassioned comments per hour on this thread” who said men can’t multi-task. all that while I was working – impressive!

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  88. tknorriss (327 comments) says:

    Still waiting for that list of Green party lies that must exist by your own admission, Paul.

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  89. Lee (627 comments) says:

    Paul,

    “WTF, what orifice did you pull that gem out of?”

    You claimed that because sometimes people die from Tasers therefore Tasers are inherently lethal. I showed the absurdity of the argument, using sarcasm to reveal that according to your line, food should be labeled inherently lethal because sometimes people die eating.

    “”Anyone criticizing suicide bombing against Israeli citizens” Your world of fantasy is a little disturbing, Did I use those words or infer that statement of even mention that issue.”

    Yes you did. I mentioned Islam as an issue that deserves open debate on campus, and you said that was hate speech. So I pointed out that your policy would have to include critisizing suicide bombers.

    The fact is that your lying and being hypocritically contradictory, and others here including myself are catching you out. You then whine about being caught and try to shift the focus of the debate.

    But I’m expecting too much intelligence from someone who can say in one sentence that universities must be places of open debate, and then in another sentence claim that a whole range of extremely important issues affecting Western society are out of bounds because they might “offend” people.

    It takes an impressive, even epic level of stupidity, dishonesty, self-delusion and rank hypocrisy to claim both at the same time.

    By the way, if cannot take personal abuse, don’t dish it out.

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  90. Lee (627 comments) says:

    “If Key states that they are non lethal and someone has died from them, they are lethal.”

    No, they are only lethal if used incorrectly. They can be used non-lethally, and your own stats prove that the majority of the time they are. Which means that you have failed to show that Key lied.

    “The overwhelming majority of people wanted to continue with the law banning gay people, did that make them right?”

    There was never a law banning gay people. There was a law against sodomy. Not the same thing. But your right about one thing, being in a majority does not make a thing right.

    So, given that all compulsory taxation is theft, then just because a majority get together to vote themselves welfare, “free” education and student allowances, does not make it right. Stealing is always wrong. According to your own argument on the gay issue, almost all of Labour’s and the Green’s policies are wrong.

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  91. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    “No, they are only lethal if used incorrectly” Buzz wrong answer.

    Go and watch the video. The police did everything per the manufacturers and policy guidelines and the guy died.

    Let me rephrase that then, the overwhelming majority of people were opposed to the Homosexual law reform bill, did that make them right?

    “given that all compulsory taxation is theft” that’s one helluva conclusion to jump too thus invalidating the rest of your statement. What you did was propose an ideological stance not a truth.

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  92. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    No you didn’t, but what exactly about “Islam as an issue that deserves open debate on campus”. The existence of said religion? Funny these things are always up for debate, sexuality, women’s issues and islam, never beer, blokes and christianity.

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  93. Lee (627 comments) says:

    “Go and watch the video. The police did everything per the manufacturers and policy guidelines and the guy died.”

    I did. And I have seen them used where people didint die, and your own stats show that in a majority of cases they DONT. So,buzz, I gave the right answer.

    “Let me rephrase that then, the overwhelming majority of people were opposed to the Homosexual law reform bill, did that make them right?”

    If you put other braincell to use you will see that I already answered that question. But because your a bit slow, let me be clear. I am an Austrian school libertarian, which means that I believe that ALL consenting adult behavior should be legal, and I believe that what consenting adults do is their business and not the states.

    ““given that all compulsory taxation is theft” that’s one helluva conclusion to jump too thus invalidating the rest of your statement. What you did was propose an ideological stance not truth.”

    On the contrary, I proposed provable truth.

    If an individual points a gun at you and steals you money/property, that is theft. If the state does the same action, because it is the same action it is still theft. If a majority of people on your street get together and vote to steal your property, that is theft. If a majority of people in society do the same via the so-called political process, it is still theft. Why? Because it is the same action, and the moral rightness or wrongness of an action does not change merely because you put lipstick on it and call it a pig.

    On the other hand, claiming that when an individual breaks in and steals from you it is wrong, but when the state does it is right, is about as ideological a stance as its possible to get.

    As you yourself rightly pointed out, a majority vote does not automatically make something right.

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  94. Lee (627 comments) says:

    but what exactly about “Islam as an issue that deserves open debate on campus”. The existence of said religion? Funny these things are always up for debate, sexuality, women’s issues and islam, never beer, blokes and christianity.

    On the contrary I think any of those issues are up for legitimate debate.

    As to Islam there are a number of legitimate issues that can be discussed. Is Islam inherently violent? What about the place of women? What about the claim that Islam is a “religion of peace”. Should we allow Sharia law in the West?

    Note that I am not taking a particular side here, only given examples of legitimate areas of debate.

    Now you haven’t answered my questions. Do womens rights activists have the right to question the place of Islam if such questioning offends Muslims?

    Do kiwis have the right to question/oppose whaling if it offends Japanese?

    Of course rational adults understand that all debates offend someone, but that free and open debate is important.

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  95. grumpyoldhori (2,410 comments) says:

    Paul, I am one of those bad,bad liberal types.
    But I believe the cops should have tasers for this reason.
    Take for example you have a brother who has cops a mental illness then
    when ill decides to grab an axe and take to the local bobby.
    Now here are your choices up against an axe, a Glock pistol or a
    Taser.
    The Glock will kill 90% of the time, forget the rubbish about shooting someone
    in the leg, they fire at the body mass until he drops.
    Or they use a Taser which yes can kill .
    So the bobby only has two choices if he is backed into a corner with a
    bloke going at him with an axe, so you choose, Glock or Taser ?

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  96. Owen McShane (1,226 comments) says:

    Ten years ago I wrote an essay about reinventing the University.
    It began:L
    Our Universities have a problem. They are victims of success – full of students, while thousands more desperately seek entry to their hallowed halls. Critics see simultaneous failures – standards are falling, they say, and graduates will not have the skills demanded by the knowledge based society.
    The technical institutes escape much of this criticism; certainly their political environment is much less turbulent.
    Even so it is not unreasonable to argue that our Polytechs seem determined to become second rate universities while our universities are determined, or destined, to become second rate polytechs. Every polytech wants to offer qualifications which take as long to acquire, which cost as much to finance, and which carry the same letters as university degrees, but without the core of research and scholarship we associate with university life.
    Universities, on the other hand, offer degrees which seem to be increasingly more like the trades certificates of the traditional polytechs, but in a context of much larger classes with less qualified and more distracted teachers.
    Both institutions are losing their focus, and both are at risk of betraying their students, their faculties, and finally the taxpayers, who meet most of the bill.
    The university was traditionally a centre of knowledge, research and scholarship in which both faculty and students were committed to developing knowledge. If their students thought about careers at all, they were the careers of civilised men and women – serving their nation, their community or civilisation itself. From there it was a short step to training for the four traditional professions whose members were deemed to put their service before self – teaching, theology, medicine, and the law; which was when the rot set in.
    Visit any major University today and you find little sign of a community of scholars, advancing knowledge for its own sake, and searching for a greater understanding of the human condition.

    IF you want to read the whole piece email me.

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  97. slightlyrighty (2,496 comments) says:

    Paul.

    The tazer was developed in response to the increasing occurances of law enforcement officers being placed in a situation where deadly force was required in order to subdue a dangerous offender who is threatening the lives of others, including policemen. It was developed as a less lethal option which should not permanently injure a target.

    There are a number of people who may be more prone to a fatal outcome of being tazered depending on their circumstances. However I would also think that the type of situation that would demand the use of a tazer is not the time for a quick game of 20 questions.

    The alternative to a tazer is a firearm. The after effects of a firearm is wounding and hospitalisation if you are lucky. A wounded felon, particularly one under the influence of narcotics, may take several shots to subdue. A tazer is far more effective.

    Have innocent people died as a result of tazering? Sadly, yes. Do we blame the tazer or the policeman who deployed it? The policemen is clearly at fault. Might Stephen Wallace still be alive if Keith Abbott had access to a tazer? There is a demonstrable need for a less lethal alternative.

    Or would you rather people were shot?

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  98. PhilBest (5,117 comments) says:

    It’s high time that starry-eyed youngsters were forced to wake up to the real world and stop choosing to spend years on the taxpayer-funded wicket gaining qualifications that are absolutely useless to NZ’s future economic growth; and YES, I do believe that that IS the only criteria that justifies expenditure of taxpayers money. Any snotty little rich-prick-hating bleeder who wants to spend years getting indoctrinated in Leftwing sociology or environmental studies (ideologically based, as opposed to “science” itself) or “gender studies” or crap like that, should just have to work their silly little arses off for a few years first and save the money to pay their own way.

    I bet none of them will end up doing those studies once they have had to get a dose of the real hard world first.

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  99. DamnedAngry (242 comments) says:

    After reading this thread I so badly want to Tazer Paul’s arse!

    Why are you guys even bothering to argue with this idiot’s drug induced wafflings? He’s a GREENIE for FS! Shouldn’t be given the time of day..

    I’d rather ban sodomy than Tazers anyday, in fact a little Tazer treatment might help solve that affliction.

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  100. OECD rank 22 kiwi (2,811 comments) says:

    This universal student allowance idea by Labour is just plain crazy. Good to see that so far National hasn’t done a “Me too”. I would have thought the play book demanded that they would have done that and killed the issue within 24 hours. Looks like National isn’t completely Labour-lite.

    Students should be made to pay the full cost of their university education instead of receiving a 75% subsidy from the government. How would they like them apples?

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  101. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    DamnedAngry your just a bigoted sick fuck and thanks for pointing that out to the world.

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  102. DamnedAngry (242 comments) says:

    Just because I don’t accept men-on-men action, doesn’t make ME a sick fuck…I would have thought it was entirely the other way round???

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  103. NeillR (348 comments) says:

    Key did well during the debate, no argument there. But he lied.
    Clark’s been lying for nine years – it doesn’t seem to be a big deal in this country anymore.

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  104. Nomestradamus (2,943 comments) says:

    Paul would apparently have us believe that John Key – but not Helen Clark – is a compulsive liar.

    So I thought I’d remind myself of Paul’s track record on truthfulness:

    # David Farrar (988) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
    December 8th, 2007 at 1:59 pm

    Paul is blatantly lying by stating Key said Clark had no kids. As Blair points out, saying “the son so and so never had” is a very common phrase. And it can be used if someone has had lots of children if they are daughters. And with a minor change to “The second son x never had” it can apply to anyone at all. The outrage is faked.

    Oops!

    And on that same thread:

    # 3-coil (422) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
    December 8th, 2007 at 9:58 pm

    Paul – it is 9.54pm here in NZ (ie Saturday night). About half an hour ago you claimed to be in Vancouver, mid-Friday afternoon. Be a sport, have a look out the window and tell me if the sun is shining…

    [After digging himself into a much deeper hole, Paul later made a Winstonesque admission: "3-coil do you get a buzz out of picking threads apart? If I said it was friday afternoon whilst meaning friday evening, how terribly terribly bad of me"]

    Double oops!

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  105. expat (4,048 comments) says:

    Its like philu, a waste of time engaging them besides to say “LOL, at you”.

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  106. DamnedAngry (242 comments) says:

    Give the guy a break Nomestradamus…you do know that he’s DYSLEXIC?

    Unfortunately he also suffers from homosexuality, drug addiction & Greenie Syndrome, the poor bastard :(

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  107. Dazzaman (1,123 comments) says:

    “Actually universities often began as theological colleges to train ministers and pastors.”  Scott

    For interests sake, another example is Yale, which was founded by Elihu Yale for the “advancement of the Christian Religion amongst the natives”.

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  108. Dazzaman (1,123 comments) says:

    Actually Paul, the Greek universities are gone. The “enlightenment”, generally good, introduced humanistic thought (based on the Greek philosophy) into the world. These corrupt thought processes were espoused in later centuries by the embryonic “left” in the middle of the nineteenth century. The “Greek” bullshit has pervaded these once Christian institutes ever since. Obviously to their detriment.

    Besides, Jewish rabbinical schools were just as prevalent in the ancient world, from these arise the true heritage of our universities as well as the enlightning Christian religion. But then you’d never admit to that…..I’m just waiting for the anti-Christian put-down……c’mon….c’mon.

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