Tauranga likes John
October 7th, 2008 at 1:00 pm by David FarrarNZPA reports:
The National Party’s newly-announced ‘life means life’ policy for repeat violent criminals won loud approval in Tauranga today.
Party leader John Key got rousing applause when he talked about National’s plans to get tough on crime in an open-air lunch-time address which attracted a crowd of about 300.
The gathering was reminiscent of the signature rallies former Tauranga MP Winston Peters held during his heyday in Tauranga’s Mid-City Mall, known colloquially as Red Square. …
Despite relentless rain, Mr Key was welcomed warmly and seemed to surrounded by supporters. Not an interjection was heard.
Speaking without notes, an upbeat Mr Key pushed all the right buttons.
“Simon (Bridges) is going to be the next MP for Tauranga and he is going to be there for a very long time,” brought claps and cheers.
Further applause greeted each topic the National leader roamed, ranging from boot camps for young criminals to raising wages.
Winston may make 5% but I don’t think he is ever going to be able to say again that he is happy just to be the MP for Tauranga!
Tony Ryall, National MP for Bay of Plenty, was also on the platform and got a mention but it was his son Llewellyn, kitted out in a pin-stripe suit like his father’s, a National Party name badge in place on the lapel, who was the star. He stepped up to the microphone and exhorted: “Vote for National and John Key.”
The confident seven-year-old was no stranger to accompanying his dad on election campaigns but has not committed yet to becoming a politician.
“I think I might be a pilot,” he told NZPA.
What a sensible chap. A pilot is a far better paying job! 
Related posts:
- Winston confirms candidacy for Tauranga
- Peters rules out Tauranga
- A 100 person poll in Tauranga
- A good turnout in Tauranga
October 7th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
i can’t believe you are stooping to pimping this piece of jingoistic/populist/simplistic drivel..
two scenarios:..the state having to pay for/run a geriatric branch of the prison service..
(we can agree that is pretty ‘dumb’..eh..?..not to mention extremely expensive..)
scenario two:..where do you think you would find prison officers to staff a prison where the inmates have ‘nothing to lose’..
..if they bash/kill a screw..?
(can we agree that is also pretty ‘dumb’..?..)
it’s almost gagging-inducing..
..nationals’ renewed appeals to the darkest side of the new zealand psyche..
..there really is no difference between this years’ model..
..and the brash-model of national..
..eh..?
..(that much is becoming clearer and clearer..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
[DPF: The stuff about geriatrics in prison is way over hyped. Only a handful of murderers every year would get life without parole - after ten years you might have two dozen or so.
The majority of prisoners will still get released - but at the end of their sentence]
Vote:October 7th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Wait, you mean these prison-bludgers are going to enjoy their taxpayer accomodation for their whole lives? What about getting bludgers into paid employment, National?
If it’s good enough for beneficaries, it should certainly be good enough for murderers after a good dose of therapy.
Seriously though, stop feeding the prison/industrial complex, David. You’re a good guy, you should know that prison doesn’t solve ANY problems at all- it just puts off having to deal with them.
Vote:October 7th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
..eh..phul..?
Vote:October 7th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
“Seriously though, stop feeding the prison/industrial complex, David. You’re a good guy, you should know that prison doesn’t solve ANY problems at all- it just puts off having to deal with them.”
FFS!, you really have to wonder at the sanity of people who make statements like that, I can just see Graham Burton or William Bell responding to Green party “group hugs” therapy.
Vote:October 7th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
Did anyone else hear Phil Goff’s comments on the ‘life means life’ policy?
He commented that, under National’s policy, Mark Burton would be unable to be released from jail “even when he was on crutches.”
What he forgot – or, more likely, didn’t realise – was that Burton is already on crutches. He had a leg amputated after being shot during his last escape bid.
Vote:October 7th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
I like how the left is trying to say it is inhuman to keep an old infirm person in jail.
What about the bloody family that person wrecked and the early life they terminated?
Why is the left always so in favour of protecting the rights of the violator?
Lock them up and watch them rot.
Vote:October 7th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
FFS!, you really have to wonder at the sanity of people who make statements like that, I can just see Graham Burton or William Bell responding to Green party “group hugs” therapy.
Oh no, I don’t pretend that hugs are gonna solve anything either. Locking people up is sometimes necessary, but increasingly harsher prison sentences don’t help with that. I especially don’t see the point of keeping elderly criminals in prison unless it’s crucial to keep them isolated from their crime networks.
My problem is that National talks up a tough policy- more arrests, more prisons- but can’t back it up with any rehabilitation to get people out of prison and back into society. They seem to think we can ignore criminals the minute we get them off the street, instead of needing to put in the hard slog to make them productive citizens. They’re only good at the retribution side of the justice system, and no good at restoring damage done to victims, or at rehabilitating criminals.
Green Party policy is less hugs and more that crims need to fix up the damage their own crime has done, in addition to any necessary incarceration.
Vote:October 7th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
Ari
I don’t expect you to understand this but most could not care if recidivist crim’s rot in jail, I have no interest in turning them into anything (apart from ashes) let alone “productive members of society” and as far as murders and rapists go they can stay inside for the rest of their hopefully painful lives.
Green party policy is all about the criminals, it always has been and always will be.
Vote:October 7th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
I’ve talked to a lot of people about rehabilitation. The bottom line seems to be that prisoners come in two categories – those who want to stop reoffending and those who do not. You do everything you can for the former category, but there is no proven rehab programme that will affect the latter category. So why let them out early?
Vote:October 7th, 2008 at 2:31 pm
Why will Mark Burton be singled out under National’s policy? Tee hee.
http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/MPP/MPs/MPs/4/c/e/48MP381-Burton-Mark.htm
Vote:October 7th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
I’d want each cell kitted out with a rope, a secure light fitting and an instruction manual.
Vote:October 7th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Wow beautox. Did you come up with that all on your own?
Vote:October 7th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
Poor ole Philu So stuck in the last century
Philu We build a prison in a nice isolated spot well away from the citizens It is a basic construction No frills. It is surrounded by electrified high voltage barb wire.
It has no physical guards It is monitored electronically Every week the inmates get a helicopter drop of some essentials nothing flash. the total cost of construction as we already own the land is no more then $500K
the running costs are very low because the prisoners have to gorw most of their food or starve
Result
We send a message to the wannabes that it aint a great option rather then now when in some areas its seen as the mark of a real man to have served time
Vote:October 7th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
BB- I can understand that people aren’t interested in rehabilitation, but they can’t have it both ways- if they want to get more bang for their tax buck, they’ll need to be interested in processes that get crims out of jail, or at least allow them to work while in jail and pay their own way to some extent.
I notice you’re also trotting out the standard “murderers and rapists” line. You do realise that those two types of crime are very much unalike, right? Rape and other sexual assaults are commited by ALL types of people, including some of the most productive. Many rapists will go on to have perfectly normal lives- especially as the conviction rate is abysmal, even among reported rapes- and the ratio of reported to unreported rapes is also abysmal. Only the violent “attack in the dark” type rapists, which are the vast minority, (about 60% of rapes are commited by someone known and trusted by the victim) are going to have much difficulty with rehabilitation.
Green policy is about the VICTIMS, a part of the equation noticably absent from National’s policy. Victims are not helped by longer sentences, apart from maybe some small sop to their sense of outrage, which might last for five minutes. A longer jail term will never erase the pain. Better to have the victim work to try and repair or prevent similar damage to society in the future- so that they can understand just how inadequate reparation is.
David: Some will come round to wanting, but I agree with you there’s no proven way to affect the ones that aren’t interested. The problem isn’t that. The problem is that we’re not doing well enough for the ones who’ll give it a go, and we’re vastly under-resourced for rehabilitation, yet perfectly willing to let companies grow fat off prison contracts dealing with the needs of our perpetually growing incarceration. Despite having crime rates similar to the UK, we’re only narrowly behind the US in locking up a ridiculous percentage of our population. We’re ALREADY incredibly punitive, and I don’t see how becoming even more so would help.
Vote:October 7th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Ari, yes, green policy is about the victims, only they see the criminal as the victim. But more seriously, the green’s policy is full of the usual waffle that has proved ineffective over and over. One of the hallmarks of a poor policy is that when it is shown not to work, you keep doing it only with greater emphasis. We’re not incredibly punitive, that’s the Chinese or North Koreans.
Not sure why you’re harping on about conviction rates for rapists, the group targeted for the “life means life” are precisely the type you identify, repeat offenders involving violence. Exactly the sort any normal person might imagine has problems adjusting to ordinary life.
Vote:October 7th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
Ari
I agree with some of your points. BUT I firmly believe that a “3 Strikes” type rule is needed. To be honest I am not intrested as a tax payer in spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on rehab for someone who has consistently screwed up and is possibly/probably showing a good face to the parole board in an attempt to shortern their sentence.
If you have committed major crimes for a third time then yes life should mean LIFE!
You say this would not help victims but I disagree, I have spent some time working in the field of youth at risk and I can tell you that the chance of a sexual abuser being out in as little as 3 years is a major issue for a lot of the victims.
At the end of the day there has to be REAL consequences for major crimes and for a large majority of the offenders this is not currently the cash IMHO.
Vote:October 7th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
Ari, I haven’t seen your comments before on this subject, everyone else will be familiar with my arguments, but here goes. We are in denial about the root causes of crime, what causes someone to be destined for a recidivist criminal career by the time they are 3 years old. The lack of a real caring mother is the worst thing and the lack of a real caring father is the second worst thing.
Most unsolved crime is committed not by unknown criminals, but by known ones who have not been connected to all the crimes they have committed. This is why crime drops spectacularly when criminals are locked up sooner in their careers and for longer. It is a barefaced lie to say otherwise. It is true that tougher sentencing does not DETER the recidivist, the drop in crime is simply because people locked up in jail can no longer commit crime.
The result of failing to confront the irresponsible parenting problem, is simply that we will have a crime problem, that we will need to address either by locking up large numbers of people, as the USA has done, or by a police state, with all decent citizens suffering curtailments of their freedom for the sake of a criminal minority that the establishment refuses to deal with directly (Sweden and the UK are heading down this path). The third option is simply to deny the existence of a problem and let the populace live in terror.
Rehabilitation has been tried and tried and tried, and does not work. Faith based rehabilitation has the best rate of success, and even that is low, and ironically faith based rehabilitation is the last thing that the secular pro-rehabilitation crowd have in mind. The problem we have today, is with an “unrehabilitatable” criminal class, a legacy of breakdown in moral values.
I recommend:
Francis Fukuyama: “The Great Disruption”
Theodore Dalrymple: “Policeman In Wonderland”
“Fjordman”: “The Greatest Betrayal In History”
C.S. Lewis: “The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment”
Charles Murray: “The Coming of Custodial Democracy” AND “The Underclass Revisited”
I have provided links to these before on here and will do so again if required.
Vote:October 7th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Ari
“apart from maybe some small sop to their sense of outrage, which might last for five minutes. A longer jail term will never erase the pain. Better to have the victim work to try and repair or prevent similar damage to society in the future- so that they can understand just how inadequate reparation is.”
That is breathtaking in its arrogance, how the fuck would YOU know what it is like to have a member of your family murdered, for you to say that the victims family should just “get over it” shows how out of touch and unbelievably ignorant you are.
Thank goodness the Greens will never be in a position to implement their “group hug” policy.
Vote:October 7th, 2008 at 3:45 pm
C. S. Lewis;
“The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment”.
http://www.angelfire.com/pro/lewiscs/humanitarian.html
Vote:October 7th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
“Policeman In Wonderland” by Theodore Dalrymple
http://www.city-journal.org/html/10_2_oh_to_be.html
“The Greatest Betrayal In History” by Fjordman
http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2008/06/greatest-betrayal-in-history.html
Vote:October 7th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
“The Great Disruption”, by Francis Fukuyama
http://www.wesjones.com/fukuyama.htm
Vote:October 7th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
“The Coming Of Custodial Democracy” by Charles Murray
http://www.aei.org/publications/filter.all,pubID.22252/pub_detail.asp
“The Underclass Revisited” by Charles Murray
http://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.14891/pub_detail.asp
Vote:October 7th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
Back to the subject of “John Key in Tauranga”
Take Winnie the Poison Dwarf’s constituency off him, YEAH, GO, JOHN…!!
Crime is a BIGGIE with the elderly….I wonder why…….and with Dairy Owners too……
Vote:October 7th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
Ed- I was talking about rapists because it’s a crime that many people don’t understand. Rape most likely to be something that a friend or relative or partner does, not something done by some stranger out on the street. Most rapists are probably easily to rehabilitate- it’s just that we don’t catch them. It’s violent crime that really necessitates prison more than anything else. Some rapes are violent, but they’re the vast minority, even if they are most likely to lead to conviction.
Mike: Yeah, I’m with you there- targetting rehab to people who haven’t reoffended is smart. Only if we’ve got resources left should we try to rehabilitate reoffenders- and even then, we’re better off spending those resources on taking steps to prevent reoffending- something we’re also terrible at. Support to stop people from needing to reoffend really ought to be a part of parole.
3 strikes is an interesting concept, because it’s already part of the law that you get tougher punishments if you’re reoffending, and judges are pretty good in this regard. Why is arbitrarily extending the sentence out to its theoretical maximum any better?
Phil- totally with you on the first three paragraphs. Bringing up our children better is the best way to prevent crime. Thank god we’ve been pushing through some real improvements to CYFS, not to mention we now have the ability to reliably prosecute child abusers now S59 is gone. This will help things, but we still need more support for parents to avoid having to resort to those kind of patch-up solutions in the first place.
I have no objection to faith-based rehabilitation being an option, but it shouldn’t be an indoctrination process.
I disagree that rehabilitation doesn’t work- it works, it just requires a radically different approach from dealing with prisoners who aren’t interested in rehabilitation, and is thus quite risky. It’s also quite costly in the short-term, so it isn’t seen as a priority by spend-small-on-services conservatives. 
BB- Don’t put words into my mouth. I never said anyone should just “get over it”. I said that longer jail terms don’t help people with the pain of being victims of crime, especially violent crime, or crimes that lead to fear or loss of security. I wasn’t even specifically talking about murder, although this seems to be where discussions of criminal and justice systems always end up. Let’s get this clear now:
I have no understanding of what it’s like to have a family member murdered, nor would I want to, and have the absolute deepest sympathy for anyone who’s gone through that, and my first priority in thinking about any change to the justice system is in reducing the amount of people who have to go through that sort of pain- and if possible, have the justice system try and make some gesture to repair the damage done by the crime. Not that anyone can really undo or make up for the effects of violent crime in an adequate way.
Vote:October 7th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
I think that Winston will be hard pushed to get 25% of the constituency vote.
Anyone want to challenge that?
Vote:October 7th, 2008 at 4:11 pm
Ari
“Not that anyone can really undo or make up for the effects of violent crime in an adequate way”
I can think of one way that might help.
Vote:October 7th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
Why on earth should the victim have to work to do anything? Who are you to dictate activities to people who haven’t asked to be caught up in the criminal ‘justice’ system? It is the victims who should be taking it easy with plasma screens, heated floors, and not a care in the world.
The people who should be working for the good of society (and working bloody hard too) are the animals that have brought all this on themselves.
Stop poking your socialist noses in our lives – if you want to tell people what to do why don’t you address those who are causing the greatest harm? No, you know what kind of reception you’d get, so you pick on the rest of us.
Beat it.
Vote:October 7th, 2008 at 4:39 pm
ARI:
“…..Thank god we’ve been pushing through some real improvements to CYFS, not to mention we now have the ability to reliably prosecute child abusers now S59 is gone. This will help things, but we still need more support for parents to avoid having to resort to those kind of patch-up solutions in the first place……”
“…..real improvements to CYFS….”
Oh, like the famous “Timaru Riding Crop Mum” who was the “poster case” for the anti-smacking law; whose kid has never been returned to her, and the kid, in the care of CYFS, is now COMPLETELY off the rails, in contrast to what the locals said about the transformation in the kid’s behaviour after his mum had given him 6 of the best for the first time……….
“……we now have the ability to reliably prosecute child abusers now S59 is gone……”
Did we not have that ability already? Sue Bradford is telling the jury in Timaru who opted unanimously for acquittal, that SHE KNOWS BEST? And if she doesn’t want people being offensive about her own child-rearing history she should actually think of having some shame about it.
And the screwing of under-age kids…….WTF did decent parents smacking their kids have to do with this? Revoltingly, many of the same people who are out to disempower parents re smacking, also want the same kids to be sexually “empowered”…FFS, I feel like throwing up. If that outrages you too, Ari, good on you, I don’t want to put words in your mouth and condemn you for something you don’t hold.
“……..we still need more support for parents to avoid having to resort to those kind of patch-up solutions…..”
If you are talking about handing out more money to solo mums, forget it. This will make no difference in the case of the ones who should have their kids taken away at birth and adopted out.
“…I have no objection to faith-based rehabilitation being an option, but it shouldn’t be an indoctrination process……”
I have every objection to any rehabilitation OTHER than faith-based rehabilitation, and this rehabilitation needs to provide a firm moral reference point in an abstract truth, a God. Nothing else is going to work, you might claim otherwise, but I know who is going to be saying “I told you so” in 10 years or 20 years time. Regarding the cost, I believe that the most effective rehabilitators will do it for nothing or almost nothing, and we should get in behind these charitable operators with our donation money.
I have also said before that social analysts fall into 4 categories. The traditionalist, Charles Murray type has been saying “we told you so” all along. The secular philosopher, Francis Fukuyama type, are coming to inevitable conclusions through sheer intellectual honesty and reason, but cannot bring themselves to make any reference to abstract truth. The third, neo-Marxist Herbert Marcuse type, are damn well out to bring about the collapse of western society and conceal this true agenda in plausible utopian gobbledegook. The fourth type are the young and ignorant who have been stuffed full of Marcuse and Derrida and Foucault at Uni and haven’t yet seen the light. These people eventually either see the light or actively commit to the dark side, they cannot stay in the “ignorant dupe” category forever, as their observations will contradict everything they have been taught. Our institutions are stacked with types 3 and 4, the only people who actually bring truth to the discussion table are the independent charitable operators like Sensible Sentencing.
Vote:October 7th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
Ari, if you really are honest and well meaning and take an interest in this subject, do read the articles I have linked to. A couple of them are awaiting moderation.
Vote:October 7th, 2008 at 4:47 pm
It is the first responsibility of government to protect its citizens from all threats, both internal and external. The current government has forfeited its moral responsibility by neglecting to protect us. I do not care what it costs to build new prisons, or to keep violent offenders locked up for the remainder of their natural lives. They forfeit their rights when they violate ours. They choose to offend – many of them repeatedly – and as a society we must take all appropriate steps to ensure our safety. If this means locking them up for 25 years, or the remainder of their lives, then we must do it. There will always be those booing these types of measures from the sidelines, but what these people fail to recognise is that they too will benefit from such measures. A country can never be great when its citizens fear for their lives in their homes, their places of work, or on the streets.
Vote:October 7th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
“Why will Mark Burton be singled out under National’s policy?”
I agree. Under National’s policy, if Burton tried for parole he would find that he doesn’t have a leg to stand on.
Vote:October 7th, 2008 at 5:17 pm
I do.
Vengeance is a great place to start.
Vote:October 7th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
MP’s 7-yo son: “Vote for National and John Key.”
Isn’t this what Redbaiter would call “indoctrination”…?
Vote:October 7th, 2008 at 6:40 pm
Vote:October 7th, 2008 at 7:51 pm
Is Ari the duty Melon troll today?. Usual leftwing feel good bullshit. Ari your people, “lunatics from the left” have had nine years of hand wringing and where has it got us?. Time for the left to step down Ari your methods have not produced favorable results, time for something different, don’t you think?.
Vote:October 8th, 2008 at 12:36 am
Hey Phil, thanks for posting the links to the articles above, some brilliant reading especially the CS Lewis one.
Vote:October 8th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
Ari. You said
>
>>My problem is that National talks up a tough policy- more arrests, more prisons- but can’t back it up with any rehabilitation to get people out of prison and back into society
>
I’ll agree with you for the sake of debate.
My proposal for rehabilitation is to make a prison sentence SO AWFUL that no one would want two of them.
Set prisoners to speechless physical labour breaking rocks into gravel for gardens, or something similar. Stop letting convicted and sentenced prisoners make phone-calls of any kind. Remove ALL the TVs from every prison except for remand wings (unconvicted people should be treated differently to those convicted). Remove the ability to buy anything other than birthday/anniversary cards for relatives. Remove all ‘education’ other than teaching people who can’t how to read and write English. Allow no more than one half hour visit by one family member every two months. Allow no more than one letter in and one out per week per prisoner. Prohibit smoking.
I could go on, but I think you’re getting the message! If it’s totally undesirable, more people will want to avoid it, especially if they’ve had a dose already.
If criminals, as well as their families who are separated from them, are punished for what they do, maybe they won’t do it again. If they are not punished, and only their families are, there is little to persuade them onto a crime-free lifestyle.
I once lived in Saudi Arabia for a couple of years. My house had no locks. I never locked my car. I was never robbed. My car was never stolen. Why? The punishments for criminal behaviour were totally undesirable. A simple driving infraction would land you in an open cage in the main square, where foetid fruit and veg was available for passers by to throw at you. Theft incurred the loss of a hand. rape and murder resulted in death. The crime rate was so minute it needed five decimal figures to show up. We should be so advanced in our approach to crime!
Vote:October 8th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
Was Tauranga wowed by the Kiwi version of Barack Obama yesterday??
Can’t wait to hear the new candidate espousing the blue cause.
Amazingly, the media was all for fashion sense and no rhetoric from the man. I didn’t hear one word escape his mouth.
If John Key gave his candidate a chance to speak to the constituents the media wasn’t having any of it.
They were more interested in spying on Winston dining around the corner.
I have to say though, I was intrigued by Winstons choice of timing. Is there a hint of the statement “Read my lips, I will not be working with Winston” maybe forgotten by lunch time?
Vote: